AI re-writing the History of Northern Soul

[Paul-s]

Its now all about the algorithm rather than the rhythm....

The more you post yourself the more you become the greatest Northern Soul dancer of all time: Forget the great dancers we have all seen over the decades...

It's now more like Virtual Reality, curated online through relentless posting of the self, and you would definitely require some sort of artificial intelligence to buy into this manufactured hype. 

I'm still waiting for Kev Roberts response regarding the 'World' Northern Soul Dance Championship and what qualifies it as a 'World' event rather than a comedy event, a bit of fun..

These are the 'real world' consequences of cynical, ego driven marketing ploys such as calling it 'World' instead of 'Blackpool'  (which is what it is in reality).

Kev has now created individuals who believe in his Emperors New Clothes competition as a 'World event and consequently sell themselves (for money) as World Northern Soul Dance Champions - notably one from 2022 who never goes to nighters and started out as a YouTube NS dancing parody act - feeding the algorithm and erasing history in the process.

AI is historically illiterate and has no 'real world' connection, no visceral instinct or rhythmic capacity, no soul, no spirit, no embodied experience.

The last comment on the AI results is that NS culture  is based on word-of-mouth, yet its ridiculous rankings are generated based on who posts the most images online (Bristol appear to rank highly for some reason).

Anyway, interested in your thoughts on this?

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 10:35 by Paul-s
reposition image

[Dobber]

Wasn’t there a talented dancer chap from the casino days called sandy? I don’t see that clever AI picking his name out?

[Dobber]

And yes I agree Paul  the more and frequent you add to the internet the more the AI fancy’s you! So that proves that AI is corrupt! I wonder if a politician came up with AI

[Chalky]

Most of those on the list are fit to put the talc down for the very best the scene has offered, even by today's standards they are only average.  As you say it is nothing to do with their quality of dancing more about their social media presence, hype and others blowing smoke up their arses.

[Thinksmart]

It's not so much that AI rewrites history, it's that it doesn't have sufficient historical sources to work with in this area. The outcome though is the same, partial, often incorrect information based on incomplete, insufficient data sets.

I recently did a speech explaining the opportunities and risks of AI in the energy sector. We got AI to do all the imagery working forward through the ages of humans into the future. It's interpretation when there isn't online content, is often wonky or speculative in a sci-fi way. For example AI understood that the industrial era had water wheels but not that they needed to be at a water source such as a river. Or that in the agricultural revolution preceding that, the farmers did not wear modern tweed flat caps.  When talking about 'smart homes' it looked like product brocures in idealistic pictures we see in EV car adverts - because those are the sources it is working with.

I used the recent AI assisted Northern Soul songs in the speech live as an illustration at one point - which became the hook that got people thinking afterwards (you can see it mentioned a lot at LinkedIn).

Anything where the core knowledge is offline prior to the internet age or behind walls it cannot reach (old fora, chat groups, email groups such as the Keeping The Faith one some of us were in for example), then the AI results are often poor. Especially where this is outside official culture that has historians who have covered it. While we do have plenty of books, these likely haven't been ingested and a model trained on them. 

For Northern Soul, AI is picking up Wikipedia, news articles, social media, Youtube etc - but it doesn't have a context to refer back to that is extensive. Academic books often miss this as we know, a lot of the real knowledge in 'folk' culture isn't written or online.  As such, in future we can envisage AI to produce shallow, often incorrect or partial information from pre-internet sources that do not have biographies/historical references to align to.  What's written right now about these things at an online source that is accessible to AI, will likely become woven into the way it expresses its 'truth' in future. Getting writing folks!

Edited Wednesday at 15:43 by Thinksmart

[Kathryn Magson]

To me, AI will always look like some "plastic" creation - it will never be able to replicate the buzz that we all felt when en route to an all-nighter........ the sweat running down the walls of some grubby old cellar with the music bouncing off the walls..... that gritty atmosphere that we all remember so fondly.....walking out on a Sunday morning blinking in the sunlight (or shivering in the cold!) with the music still ringing in our ears........AI will never - ever - be able to do that!

[Chalky]

58 minutes ago, Thinksmart said:

It's not so much that AI rewrites history, it's that it doesn't have sufficient historical sources to work with in this area. The outcome though is the same, partial, often incorrect information based on incomplete, insufficient data sets.

I recently did a speech explaining the opportunities and risks of AI in the energy sector. We got AI to do all the imagery working forward through the ages of humans into the future. It's interpretation when there isn't online content, is often wonky or speculative in a sci-fi way. For example AI understood that the industrial era had water wheels but not that they needed to be at a water source such as a river. Or that in the agricultural revolution preceding that, the farmers did not wear modern tweed flat caps.  When talking about 'smart homes' it looked like product brocures in idealistic pictures we see in EV car adverts - because those are the sources it is working with.

I used the recent AI assisted Northern Soul songs in the speech live as an illustration at one point - which became the hook that got people thinking afterwards (you can see it mentioned a lot at LinkedIn).

Anything prior to the internet age where the original content was always online and not behind walls it cannot reach (old fora, chat groups, email groups such as the Keeping The Faith one some of us were in for example), then the AI results are often poor. Especially where this is outside official culture that has historians who have covered it. While we do have plenty of books, these likely haven't been ingested and a model trained on them. 

For Northern Soul, AI is picking up Wikipedia, news articles, social media, Youtube etc - but it doesn't have a context to refer back to that is extensive. Academic books often miss this as we know, a lot of the real knowledge in 'folk' culture isn't written or online.  As such, in future we can envisage AI to produce shallow, often incorrect or partial information from pre-internet sources that do not have biographies/historical references to align to.  What's written right now about these things at an online source that is accessible to AI, will likely become woven into the way it expresses its 'truth' in future. Getting writing folks!

But it’s on the internet so it must be true

[Dylan]

Keeping the lights turned on seems to be on trend right now  

 

no thanks….  

[STEFAN BURLAK]

What does it matter , who is the best soul Dancer?

[Jessie Pinkman]

22 hours ago, Dobber said:

Wasn’t there a talented dancer chap from the casino days called sandy? I don’t see that clever AI picking his name out?

Sandy Holt, he has his own Thai Boxing club in Bolton.

[Ady Croasdell]

I think Soulie will be surprised to be representing Bristol. Peterborough lad who hasn't been out in years as far as I know. Great dancer. It's all very silly 

[Paul-s]

1 hour ago, STEFAN BURLAK said:

What does it matter , who is the best soul Dancer?

Well, it doesn't, thats the entire point?

BUT, the idea and discussion is not about its validity but the fact that history is co-opted by AI and people (lazy bookers and TV producers) take the results as gospel and book these comedy parody dancers to represent the scene. In that way, like most vernacular dance culture, it becomes gentrified, sanitised, and mis-represented. You may not care, but as someone who has spent 5 decades caring and contributing, I do.

[Ian Stacey]

23 hours ago, Chalky said:

Most of those on the list are fit to put the talc down for the very best the scene has offered, even by today's standards they are only average.  As you say it is nothing to do with their quality of dancing more about their social media presence, hype and others blowing smoke up their arses.

There not even average. . Shame that  don't object to the list themselves. Very dishonest generation .

[Dobber]

16 minutes ago, Paul-s said:

Well, it doesn't, thats the entire point?

BUT, the idea and discussion is not about its validity but the fact that history is co-opted by AI and people (lazy bookers and TV producers) take the results as gospel and book these comedy parody dancers to represent the scene. In that way, like most vernacular dance culture, it becomes gentrified, sanitised, and mis-represented. You may not care, but as someone who has spent 5 decades caring and contributing, I do.

Spot on Paul….the northern soul scene is like a lot of things in this country where everything is constantly being watered down!

[Paulb]

Don’t know if anyone else watched the last series of Traitors, but one of the lads on there did an intro piece and stated he was into ‘northern soul dancing’. Not into northern soul, but northern soul dancing! 

[Paul-s]

On 06/03/2025 at 13:40, Ian Stacey said:

There not even average. . Shame that  don't object to the list themselves. Very dishonest generation .

Yes, very  good point! They never object to the misrepresentation, but rather, choose to exploit it for profit.

Its disingenuous and comes across as delusional and narcissistic.....but, more often that not (if you dig deeper) they are all sole trader or limited company 'Northern Soul dance' businesses.
The result is a plethora of hoppy, skippy, smiley, windmill armed, line dancers who have missed out the part that requires time, patience, observation, attendance, meeting people, absorbing the atmospheres (beyond the line dancing class venue), contribution to the scene, listening to the music and connecting with it all.

The business(s) of Northern Soul dancing have watered it down to the simple equation that it is just steps to music....nothing more. No need for cultural connection, no need for historical connection, no need for a connection to the musicians.
In some cases labels are even replacing images & biographies of the Afro-American musicians who have always represented the heart of the scene, with those of self promoting  'celebutantes' whose soul has been moulded via hashtags and relentless posting of the self online. 

It does have long-term implications due to its cynical erasure of memory, and the cultural amnesia that AI inspires and propagates. Much like the Wikipedia facade of self written history! It negates those who danced before us, collected, played, contributed, traveled far and wide, post - Wigan, to keep the scene going. And also those who perished in the pursuit.

Imagine a lazy (they are all lazy) TV or Radio producer  (BBC comes to mind) goes online and googles Northern Soul Dancer because they want to feature one, they will get this list of individuals. Apart from being below average dancers, who are not even on the scene as a whole,  they are people who are solely business orientated and do not have the humility to recognise and admit that there is no such thing as 'a World Champion Northern Soul dancer, or a boy or girl or man or woman who represents the scene and its culture. It was/is a communal scene, a community, or nowadays a series of   rival communities perhaps? 

Anyway, personally, I find it not to be "a bit of fun" but recognise it as a vacuous profit driven business model aimed at sucking the soul of the culture and the scene dry....and often attempting to gaslight us into thinking we are being negative if we question their motives and their products.

Anyway, that is just my opinion and experience of course.

[Jessie Pinkman]

4 hours ago, Paul-s said:

Yes, very  good point! They never object to the misrepresentation, but rather, choose to exploit it for profit.

Its disingenuous and comes across as delusional and narcissistic.....but, more often that not (if you dig deeper) they are all sole trader or limited company 'Northern Soul dance' businesses.
The result is a plethora of hoppy, skippy, smiley, windmill armed, line dancers who have missed out the part that requires time, patience, observation, attendance, meeting people, absorbing the atmospheres (beyond the line dancing class venue), contribution to the scene, listening to the music and connecting with it all.

The business(s) of Northern Soul dancing have watered it down to the simple equation that it is just steps to music....nothing more. No need for cultural connection, no need for historical connection, no need for a connection to the musicians.
In some cases labels are even replacing images & biographies of the Afro-American musicians who have always represented the heart of the scene, with those of self promoting  'celebutantes' whose soul has been moulded via hashtags and relentless posting of the self online. 

It does have long-term implications due to its cynical erasure of memory, and the cultural amnesia that AI inspires and propagates. Much like the Wikipedia facade of self written history! It negates those who danced before us, collected, played, contributed, traveled far and wide, post - Wigan, to keep the scene going. And also those who perished in the pursuit.

Imagine a lazy (they are all lazy) TV or Radio producer  (BBC comes to mind) goes online and googles Northern Soul Dancer because they want to feature one, they will get this list of individuals. Apart from being below average dancers, who are not even on the scene as a whole,  they are people who are solely business orientated and do not have the humility to recognise and admit that there is no such thing as 'a World Champion Northern Soul dancer, or a boy or girl or man or woman who represents the scene and its culture. It was/is a communal scene, a community, or nowadays a series of   rival communities perhaps? 

Anyway, personally, I find it not to be "a bit of fun" but recognise it as a vacuous profit driven business model aimed at sucking the soul of the culture and the scene dry....and often attempting to gaslight us into thinking we are being negative if we question their motives and their products.

Anyway, that is just my opinion and experience of course.

I wonder if John Hurt was asked how many classic race meetings he'd won before getting the role to play Bob Champion in Champions, You also mentioned radio producer, so how does northern soul dancing on the radio work, I'd still be a rubbish dancer even on the radio.

Edited Friday at 18:09 by Jessie Pinkman

[Jim Elliott]

If you'll forgive the street parlance,  what a load of absolute bollocks.

Glad I'm retired.

[Quinvy]

It’s not just dancers is it?

What about all the “look at me” DJ’s on social media?

And it works too, they get on everywhere. 

[Frankie Crocker]

AI will ultimately prove to be bad for society but good for some businesses. Even this tiny extract is complete garbage - it presents Bristol as the epicentre of contemporary Northern culture which of course is far from the truth. AI will use robots to replace people impoverishing both knowledge and citizens. Any money involved will head to Silicon Valley leaving originators of songs/films/books etc without payment or credit.

[Paul-s]

17 hours ago, Jessie Pinkman said:

I wonder if John Hurt was asked how many classic race meetings he'd won before getting the role to play Bob Champion in Champions, You also mentioned radio producer, so how does northern soul dancing on the radio work, I'd still be a rubbish dancer even on the radio.

Indeed.

John Hurt also starred in 1984 which kind of captures the dystopian state of Group Think, Double Think and News Speak that dominates the commercial spaces of Northern Soul dancing gurus: their products and productions.

It doesn't work on the radio, but its a great space for these narcissists to showcase their sales propaganda and to sell and fabricate an imagined past....much like the Ministry of Truth in 1984. 

12 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

AI will ultimately prove to be bad for society but good for some businesses. Even this tiny extract is complete garbage - it presents Bristol as the epicentre of contemporary Northern culture which of course is far from the truth. AI will use robots to replace people impoverishing both knowledge and citizens. Any money involved will head to Silicon Valley leaving originators of songs/films/books etc without payment or credit.

Spot on!

[Jessie Pinkman]

13 minutes ago, Paul-s said:

Indeed.

John Hurt also starred in 1984 which kind of captures the dystopian state of Group Think, Double Think and News Speak that dominates the commercial spaces of Northern Soul dancing gurus: their products and productions.

It doesn't work on the radio, but its a great space for these narcissists to showcase their sales propaganda and to sell and fabricate an imagined past....much like the Ministry of Truth in 1984. 

Spot on!

[Jessie Pinkman]

56 minutes ago, Paul-s said:

Indeed.

John Hurt also starred in 1984 which kind of captures the dystopian state of Group Think, Double Think and News Speak that dominates the commercial spaces of Northern Soul dancing gurus: their products and productions.

It doesn't work on the radio, but its a great space for these narcissists to showcase their sales propaganda and to sell and fabricate an imagined past....much like the Ministry of Truth in 1984. 

Spot on!

Somebody should do a Northern Soul play 1984 Once Upon A Time In Stafford.

[Paul-s]

26 minutes ago, Jessie Pinkman said:

Somebody should do a Northern Soul play 1984 Once Upon A Time In Stafford.

No one with the true grit, honesty, tenacity and willingness to sacrifice time and  lose a fortune left to step up to that mark i think

[Simsy]

To access Soul Source (almost always on my phone), I type ‘soul’ into Google and Soul Source will always normally be in the top five results, which I find reassuringly pleasing.

It’s a pity the algorithms don’t have more depth than to point towards recent Bristol well meaning enthusiasts when it comes to the great northern soul dancers down the years. In the World for you Kev.

 

[Hooker1951]

On 05/03/2025 at 19:32, Dylan said:

Keeping the lights turned on seems to be on trend right now  

 

no thanks….  

Your dead right there Dylan been telling them to switch the lights off for the last 40 years, plus leaving doors open  , fans switched on all things that kill the atmosphere, all the ingredients that destroy the atmosphere and keep you in reality when your trying to escape it , to be fair in all honesty a lot of people on the scene today haven’t a clue, as regards dancing there s a big difference between gymnastics acrobatics, and feeling the music I know which I prefer but each to their own

ML

[Shinehead]

29 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

 regards dancing there s a big difference between gymnastics acrobatics, and feeling the music I know which I prefer but each to their own

ML

True, my dancing left a lot to desired but when in the zone I was out of myself and the soul and beat had me, most today is  dancing by numbers and acrobatics and spins are not I time to the music and mostly crap and all for the camera.

 

[Jessie Pinkman]

57 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

Your dead right there Dylan been telling them to switch the lights off for the last 40 years, plus leaving doors open  , fans switched on all things that kill the atmosphere, all the ingredients that destroy the atmosphere and keep you in reality when your trying to escape it , to be fair in all honesty a lot of people on the scene today haven’t a clue, as regards dancing there s a big difference between gymnastics acrobatics, and feeling the music I know which I prefer but each to their own

ML

You certainly had it dark at Blackburn Mick, It was always a pleasant surprise who I'd missed when the lights came on at the end of the night

Edited 18 hours ago by Jessie Pinkman

[Dylan]

Exactly it’s not always about how good a dancer you are but more how much you are feeling the music.

[Agentsmith]

Its always been about how a person as an individual, feels about the music. Everybody's dna differs and folk treat each song in the same manner. Dancing is a personal thing and people have their own distinct mannerisms.