Bobby Smith and The Dream Girls-Now he's gone

[Wheelsville1]

Although the above recording is often listed as being a New York recording due to it being on Big Top,is it more a case of being a Detroit recording as it is Vicki Music and as we all know this was owned by Harry Balk and Irving Micahnik and that the recording was simply licensed to Big Top.Chris.

[The Tempest]

Great record - always loved it

[Wheelsville1]

43 minutes ago, The Tempest said:

Great record - always loved it

Totaly agree,very underplayed.

[Chalky]

The group was from Detroit and were discovered by Irving Micahnik and Harry Balk.  Harry Balk probably got them the Big Top deal along with the other labels. Great track and one I had in my sets late 80s early 90s at places like Tracky Club. 

[Wheelsville1]

48 minutes ago, Chalky said:

The group was from Detroit and were discovered by Irving Micahnik and Harry Balk.  Harry Balk probably got them the Big Top deal along with the other labels. Great track and one I had in my sets late 80s early 90s at places like Tracky Club. 

It's around that time that i first heard it Chalky.

[Robbk]

13 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Although the above recording is often listed as being a New York recording due to it being on Big Top, is it more a case of being a Detroit recording as it is Vicki Music and as we all know this was owned by Harry Balk and Irving Micahnik and that the recording was simply licensed to Big Top.Chris.

The situation with Harry Balk and Irving Micahnik labels isn't quite so simple.  There was a fairly long period in which their production and marketing operated both in Detroit and New York.  In Balk's and Micahnik's earliest period in the music business, their songwriting crew operated in Detroit, and they found the bulk of their singing artists in Detroit, and they did their demo recording there, as well.  But they generally did their final recording of their featured singers, background singers, and instrumentals in New York.  A significant portion of their early Embee Productions' final recordings during 1959-to early 1963, on their own Twirl and Storm Records, and certainly those on New York's Big Top Records, were done in New York.  They even had office for Twirl and Storm Records operated in New York for a few years. They took several of their singers, like Del Shannon, Willie Jones, and Bobbie Smith and The Dream Girls to New York to record them there.  Many of their Big Top recordings sound, to me like New York recordings, with simpler instrumentals on which I hear NO identifiable Detroit session players or recognisable Detroit recording studio acoustics. I think some of Bobbie Smith and The Dream Girls' final Big Top vocals were recorded in Detroit, and some in New York.  During 1963, and from 1964 on, I think Embee Productions were ALL recorded in Detroit (even all their cuts issued on Pittsburgh's American Arts). 

"Now He's Gone" sounds a lot like a Detroit song by its writing (by Vicki Detroiters Tom King, Maron McKenzie, and Irv Micahnik).  But the recording instrumental is on the fence for me.  It is difficult to tell.  It's simple enough trackwise, to have me believe that it was a New York recording. And I don't hear any identifiable sounds of Detroit session players on it.  It very well might be a New York recording, but it also could be a Detroit recording.  One thing I CAN say is that the location of its recording CAN'T be determined by assuming that ALL Big Top releases' cuts were recorded in New York, because Big Top operated in New York; and that all Harry Balk and Irv Micahnik's Embee Productions' recordings were recorded in Detroit, because those men were originally from Detroit, and resided their during their partnership, that ALL their productions were recorded in Detroit.

So, I wouldn't want to bet my house on whether the final recordings on these 2 cuts on this release were recorded either in New York or in Detroit.  It might even have been split, with The Girls' vocals recorded in Detroit, and the instrumentals in New York.  Given that it has been written that this was recorded in New York, IF I had a gun to my head, I might well bet that the instrumentals were recorded in New York, and Bobbie and The Dream Girls' vocals were recorded in Detroit.  But really, there's no way of knowing for sure unless we can find written documentation, or a recorded interview with a person who worked with Embee at the time (Company Partner, songwriter, arranger, recording engineer, etc.).

Edited Thursday at 04:08 by Robbk

[Wheelsville1]

13 minutes ago, Robbk said:

The situation with Harry Balk and Irving Micahnik labels isn't quite so simple.  There was a fairly long period in which their production and marketing operated both in Detroit and New York.  In Balk's and Micahnik's earliest period in the music business, their songwriting crew operated in Detroit, and they found the bulk of their singing artists in Detroit, and they did their demo recording there, as well.  But they generally did their final recording of their featured singers, background singers, and instrumentals in New York.  A significant portion of their early Embee Productions' final recordings during 1959-to early 1963, on their own Twirl and Storm Records, and certainly those on New York's Tip Top Records, were done in New York.  They even had office for Twirl and Storm Records operated in New York for a few years. They took several of their singers, like Del Shannon, Willie Jones, and Bobbie Smith and The Dream Girls to New York to record them there.  Many of their Big Top recordings sound, to me like New York recordings, with simpler instrumentals on which I hear NO identifiable Detroit session players or recognisable Detroit recording studio acoustics. I think some of Bobbie Smith and The Dream Girls' final Big Top vocals were recorded in Detroit, and some in New York.  During 1963, and from 1964 on, I think Embee Productions were ALL recorded in Detroit (even all their cuts issued on Pittsburgh's American Arts). 

"Now He's Gone" sounds a lot like a Detroit song by its writing (by Vicki Detroiters Tom King, Maron McKenzie, and Irv Micahnik).  But the recording instrumental is on the fence for me.  It is difficult to tell.  It's simple enough trackwise, to have me believe that it was a New York recording. And I don't hear any identifiable sounds of Detroit session players on it.  It very well might be a New York recording, but it also could be a Detroit recording.  One thing I CAN say is that the location of its recording CAN'T be determined by assuming that ALL Big Top releases' cuts were recorded in New York, because Big Top operated in New York; and that all Harry Balk and Irv Micahnik's Embee Productions' recordings were recorded in Detroit, because those men were originally from Detroit, and resided their during their partnership, that ALL their productions were recorded in Detroit.

So, I wouldn't want to bet my house on whether the final recordings on these 2 cuts on this release were recorded either in New York or in Detroit.  It might even have been split, with The Girls' vocals recorded in Detroit, and the instrumentals in New York.  Given that it has been written that this was recorded in New York, IF I had a gun to my head, I might well bet that the instrumentals were recorded in New York, and Bobbie and The Dream Girls' vocals were recorded in Detroit.  But really, there's no way of knowing for sure unless we can find written documentation, or a recorded interview with a person who worked with Embee at the time (Company Partner, songwriter, arranger, recording engineer, etc.).

Phew,thanks for the feedback Robb.

[Robbk]

11 hours ago, Chalky said:

The group was from Detroit and were discovered by Irving Micahnik and Harry Balk.  Harry Balk probably got them the Big Top deal along with the other labels. Great track and one I had in my sets late 80s early 90s at places like Tracky Club. 

Balk and Micahnik's Embee Productions had a production agreement with Big Top Records that included songwriting(Micahnik, Balk, Maron McKenzie, Tom King, Nat Turner, Johnny Mitchell, C.P. Spencer, etc.), Embee-Detroit discovered and signed artists (Del Shannon, Bobbie Smith, The Dreamgirls, Willie Jones, The Royal Jokers, Kenny Martin, Vivian Jones, Spencer Stirling (AKA C.P. Spencer), The Parakeets, and Mickey Denton).  In addition, the deal included Embee producing New York artists contracted to Big Top Records (such as Don and Juan).  Embee could use their usual Detroit recording studios, arrangers, and session musicians, or bring their Detroit artists to use Big Top's usual New York studios for recording.  In fact, I'm wondering whether Balk referred (introduced) Big Top to Detroit Producer and recording studio owner, Ernie Stratton, as they sometimes used Stratton's recording studios to record their demos. They knew that Ernie was looking for a record label deal for his group, The Dynamics, as Big Top made a production deal with Stratton on them in 1963, during a very active time in Balk's deal with Embee, and that was the only other production deal Big Top made with Detroit production companies or labels.  So, I think there's a good chance that Balk did Ernie that favour.

After Embee's deal with Big Top ended in late 1963, they still dealt with New York labels, getting a deal with Mr. Peacock/Mr. Peke Records for Royal Jokers' lead, Willie Jones, and had gotten a deal for The Volumes with Old Town, and later, for The Volumes with Jubilee Records.

And yes, Balk got Bobbie Smith (without The Dream Girls), her deal with American Arts, as part of a similar deal to that with Big Top, which also included production on The Volumes, Patty Jerome, and a couple other acts. 

Edited Thursday at 05:14 by Robbk