Poll: AI - Vocal Soul - Is there a place?

[Mike]

 

Recent discussions on planned 45 releases featuring AI generated vocals led to this poll..

Is there a place for AI being used to generate soul music vocal performances?

Feel free to expand on your choice below...

 

[Woodbutcher]

Unless Butch has found the long lost acetates of Stephen Hawking's legendary Motown sessions then it's a resounding no from me ... 

[Shinehead]

The human emotion of a singer is what makes it soul and that is what makes the hairs on my neck stand up and amazes me the depth a fellow human can get in to a song. However good an al record sounds it is fake and devoid of the main element a real singer. If this is the future of soul music it is reassuring that the back catalogue is vast and still new sounds to explore.

 

 

[Happy Feet]

As has been mentioned before , a certain individual came out with  " there are no more , they've all been discovered" & pursued a career of tailer mades and crap , since then approx 1975 there has been hundreds of discoveries, and as the tempo has slowed and with the acceptance of varying types of soul music , long may it stay original,.

AI is just another form of tailer made surely 

[Johndelve]

AI is here to stay, no question, and it has and will have many benefits in certain walks of life.

But in art/ music /entertainment ? A disaster.

Ask musicians, artists, writers etc. what they think of AI when it puts them out of work.... 

[Dylan]

I think the recent batch of AI vocals could be tried out with quality soul singers and there is the opportunity to judge them again

[Timbo58]

Anything that takes away authenticity in soul music itself (or even events that play it for that matter) makes it by definition inauthentic and therefore (to my mind at least) a pastiche of what true rare soul should be -it becomes an insult to the artists and those who actually know what 'the faith' actually means.

 

AI is about as far away from 'real' as it can possibly be. So let's leave its products to the venues with their glitter balls, disco lasers & local yokels jigging about with drinks, you know -the ones that social media repeatedly tells us are 'the soul scene'.

Edited November 23 by Timbo58

[Kev Cane]

10 minutes ago, Dylan said:

I think the recent batch of AI vocals could be tried out with quality soul singers and there is the opportunity to judge them again

And then we're going down the realms of "tailor made" Dylan, but hey ho, that's just a beef that I have with it, hope you're well  

Kev

[Clee93]

40 minutes ago, Johndelve said:

AI is here to stay, no question, and it has and will have many benefits in certain walks of life.

But in art/ music /entertainment ? A disaster.

Ask musicians, artists, writers etc. what they think of AI when it puts them out of work.... 

I actually don't reckon AI will ever have the capacity to challenge authentic creativity... Saw something the other day that people have already noticed when brands are using AI generated advertisement & already initially think that the company can't / won't be great and is a reflection of their business practices in general because they are too cheap to pay for an actual designer.

I genuinely think it'll be seen as a novelty fad within the creative sectors. I just can't see AI being able to even begin to replicate, never mind synthesise something like Love Was So Easy by Sidney Barnes on Sids Kids. Not even due to the usual comments of lived experience etc. I just see AI being something which will benefit lots of systems within various industries that will hopefully free up a lot of monotonous day to day stuff within businesses. The less of it we see and hear on the scene, the better. 

Edited November 23 by Clee93

[Solidsoul]

Maybe it will be good to re-engineer existing records?

Take out instrumental backing sounds or vocals that detract from the song.

Conversely we could add an extra chorus or an extra instrumental break? 

Overall I would rather it wasn't used and we just had the existing records. But as we have found out with the internet, the genie can't be put back in the bottle?

Edited November 23 by Solidsoul

[Hooker1951]

If it sounds good catches the emotions touches the soul and captures the Time and spaces it tries to do Embrace it because you will never stop it, Let’s be honest it’s got a hell of a mountain to climb to match up with the real thing , but you can’t stop the future just hope it gets better n better, if it finally arrives at a good place, Music will win in the end and your imagination will do the rest

Mick

[Kev Cane]

AI records being played at a genuine soul venue will provoke a new "OVO versus CD, MP3, reissue, boot " kinda scenario, plenty of OVO about, still untapped, PVC instead of leather in my opinion 

Kev

[Dylan]

4 hours ago, Kev Cane said:

And then we're going down the realms of "tailor made" Dylan, but hey ho, that's just a beef that I have with it, hope you're well  

Kev

I’m well mate and appreciate both sides of the argument regarding these recent tracks.  I just think a couple of them are pretty good.  The ballad is the one that got me.

 

what defines tailor made is that anything copying a style from a previous era ? Lee fields for example his output is fantastic but is a style from the past but still authentic and genuine.  That said he does have releases going all the way back.

also daptone etc.

1 minute ago, Dylan said:

 

Edited November 23 by Dylan

[Dr Ray Dj]

20 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

Maybe it will be good to re-engineer existing records?

Take out instrumental backing sounds or vocals that detract from the song.

Conversely we could add an extra chorus or an extra instrumental break? 

Overall I would rather it wasn't used and we just had the existing records. But as we have found out with the internet, the genie can't be put back in the bottle?

I think it’s been used already (Beatles tracks) to extract individual parts of recordings so they can be reconstructed which could be useful to the scene where there are no original masters, not the best solution but better than nothing 

 

[Soulman58]

On 23/11/2024 at 11:43, Timbo58 said:

Anything that takes away authenticity in soul music itself (or even events that play it for that matter) makes it by definition inauthentic and therefore (to my mind at least) a pastiche of what true rare soul should be -it becomes an insult to the artists and those who actually know what 'the faith' actually means.

 

AI is about as far away from 'real' as it can possibly be. So let's leave its products to the venues with their glitter balls, disco lasers & local yokels jigging about with drinks, you know -the ones that social media repeatedly tells us are 'the soul scene'.

At its best soul performances should be live, no idea how AI (or as I know it f### the workforce) will deliver that.

[Mike]

85% say no place so far

will close the poll Wednesday

a bit more context...

here's the link and such to a planned upcoming AI release who's discussion led to this poll...

https://www.rikerrecords.com/

Each Riker production is a lovingly crafted tribute to the timeless, iconic Soul Music of the 1960s. Created by writer, producer, and musician Colin Day, these tracks combine original songs, advanced music creation technology, and live instrumentation to honour the spirit of a golden era in music.

 

 

 

 

[Kenb]

depends.

As long as it's not passed-off as anything but AI+ generated then i see no harm. None of the tracks in the vid above appeal to me. However i do get the thought that Colin Day is sincere and skilled.

Edited November 25 by Kenb

[Hooker1951]

You will never be able to recreate the original sounds from original artists and the musicians, they are from the time and place that existed then , the world was a much different place then , So as time moves on we have lost those people through age or mortality and they can never be brought back to do it again , we can still listen though to the fantastic music and memories they made and that will always be our point of contact. 
However the future with A1+ is still unknown to where it may end up, if there is a way to enhance and add on or take away from sounds we love and it does capture the music we love and cherish , I’m sure we would recognise that it was good we’ve had enough practise to not be kidded or fooled by pretentious music , it might never happen but I think it’s worth giving it a try if it does get there,  After all we will be the judges of that

Mick

[Davace]

Artificial-speaks for itself.

[Kev Cane]

1 hour ago, Davace said:

Artificial-speaks for itself.

Nail on head  

Kev

[Mike]

ok last day so poll now closed, look up for the results

a fairly definite result, 85%

stats wise, a lot of poll views but a bit low on the actual votes, which always make me smile

anyway will leave the topic open in case anyone else likes to pass on their take

thanks to all those who took the time to vote and comment 

 

 

 

 

[Chalky]

Before these records were revealed to be using AI everyone was saying how great they were, not one person said that AI had been used because not one person could tell.  I knew they were recent recordings, and as pointed out to me by a mate using lyrics that wouldn't necessarily be used back in say the 60s or 70s.

On 23/11/2024 at 09:27, Shinehead said:

The human emotion of a singer is what makes it soul and that is what makes the hairs on my neck stand up and amazes me the depth a fellow human can get in to a song. However good an al record sounds it is fake and devoid of the main element a real singer. If this is the future of soul music it is reassuring that the back catalogue is vast and still new sounds to explore.

 

 

whilst I agreemtom a certain extent, almost every soul record begins life with the writer of said record, the vocalist simply interprets what the writer wants expressing.  That is exactly were these records started life, they weren't written using AI, they were written by the composer for his partner and based on life's experiences.

Edited Wednesday at 22:26 by Chalky

[Shinehead]

11 hours ago, Chalky said:

 

whilst I agreemtom a certain extent, almost every soul record begins life with the writer of said record, the vocalist simply interprets what the writer wants expressing.  That is exactly were these records started life, they weren't written using AI, they were written by the composer for his partner and based on life's experiences.

Think we know how songs begin and most singers are then putting the emotion into the recording I also know that these records lyrics are heartfelt and are good records but what could have been a great project was marred by the use of fake voices in my opinion.

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Shinehead said:

Think we know how songs begin and most singers are then putting the emotion into the recording I also know that these records lyrics are heartfelt and are good records but what could have been a great project was marred by the use of fake voices in my opinion.

But back to my original point, until it was said AI was used everyone was saying many wonderful things about the records, including how soulful they were.

[Shinehead]

35 minutes ago, Chalky said:

But back to my original point, until it was said AI was used everyone was saying many wonderful things about the records, including how soulful they were.

The ones I have heard are good but they are not real, there is topics on here daily which are usually started by "who was " or any "pictures of " because they were real people and people want to know the people behind the record.

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 12:03 by Shinehead

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

But back to my original point, until it was said AI was used everyone was saying many wonderful things about the records, including how soulful they were.

as the AI vocals are generated from recordings of 'real' artists then isn't that always gonna be a given

has anyone asked why they haven't used 'real artists'?

and while here what's the drug related label name all about? 

[Chalky]

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

as the AI vocals are generated from recordings of 'real' artists then isn't that always gonna be a given

has anyone asked why they haven't used 'real artists'?

and while here what's the drug related label name all about? 

I guess it was down to cost?  I don't know tbh.  They are still good records regardless how they were done, I don't like them all but two are particularly good.

Label name, dunno?

[Simon T]

Perhaps they are based in Loughborough

can't think of any other reason

 

[Chalky]

6 minutes ago, Simon T said:

Perhaps they are based in Loughborough

can't think of any other reason

 

West Midlands I think

[Paraboliccurve]

On 25/11/2024 at 12:58, Mike said:

85% say no place so far

will close the poll Wednesday

a bit more context...

here's the link and such to a planned upcoming AI release who's discussion led to this poll...

https://www.rikerrecords.com/

Each Riker production is a lovingly crafted tribute to the timeless, iconic Soul Music of the 1960s. Created by writer, producer, and musician Colin Day, these tracks combine original songs, advanced music creation technology, and live instrumentation to honour the spirit of a golden era in music.

 

 

 

 

I'd have danced to tracks 1 and 5 on that at the 100 Club in 1985.

Mind you, after I'd been to see Scouse I'd probably have danced to the speaking clock.

[Paraboliccurve]

Just listening to them again. I've been collecting rare soul records since the mid 80s (like most on here, and many have been doing it longer).

I reckon I know what a soul record is. I would have had zero idea, based on a couple of listens anyway, that they were not genuine records - especially at ear splitting volume in eg Hinckley Leisure Centre.

More to the point, while I can no longer be bothered to go out to venues I do try to keep on top of new discoveries, and these are better than many 'newies', if that's still even a term.

It's an interesting question whether I'd have been into them back when I was going to nighters *if I knew they were fake*, and to be honest the answer is probably no.

But ours is a scene which has played plenty of pop rubbish and even country and western and stuff verging on doo wop, so I don't know that I'd have been right.

 

Edited Thursday at 18:35 by Paraboliccurve

[Steviehay]

i was wondering what happened to the polls get it going again please Mike 

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Steviehay said:

i was wondering what happened to the polls get it going again please Mike 

yeah sure, back on will close after the weekend

[Mike]

On 28/11/2024 at 12:30, Mike said:

as the AI vocals are generated from recordings of 'real' artists then isn't that always gonna be a given

has anyone asked why they haven't used 'real artists'?

and while here what's the drug related label name all about? 

ahhn have just read via an earlier post that Colin is  a long time member on here,  obvious once seen

maybe Colin aka  @Dayo  can answer above?

you out there?

Edited yesterday at 09:45 by Mike
Error fixed

[Chalky]

30 minutes ago, Mike said:

ahhn have just read via an earlier post that alan is  a long time member on here,  obvious once seen

maybe alan aka  @Dayo  can answer above?

you out there?

Colin is the label owner’s name?

[Mike]

20 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Colin is the label owner’s name?

Ah yep, that’s what I meant to say,  got my days mixed up, will edit , thanks 

[Hooker1951]

If A1 carries on improving and the music and vocals are made so they can replicate the perfection and in some cases the imperfections on the best in Soul and RnB  and popcorn , it will carry the day for a lot of people if they use there imagination which you would have too, Good Music will always be the winner, wether it’s humans or Robots who make it if it’s not good enough it will never fool the people on this site in a million years anyway , but never say never.

Mick

[Happy Feet]

4 hours ago, Hooker1951 said:

If A1 carries on improving and the music and vocals are made so they can replicate the perfection and in some cases the imperfections on the best in Soul and RnB  and popcorn , it will carry the day for a lot of people if they use there imagination which you would have too, Good Music will always be the winner, wether it’s humans or Robots who make it if it’s not good enough it will never fool the people on this site in a million years anyway , but never say never.

Mick

Would copyrights be an issue Mick ?

[Thinksmart]

Frankly this thread has me pretty down, but to add another view point I'll give a contrary range of thoughts. If you're comfortable with AI and Soul music or see it as inevitable, then feel free to scroll past this message entirely. 

There is loads of new Soul music released that most people at the forum ignore, yet for the articifical clone of the sixty year old sound - AI is starting to be accepted.  It seems that so long as it sounds Northern Soul to some, well that's enough. It's not for me.

I use AI in my work, I understand it well as a tool. But when we get to the point mentioned above, of AI replicating old Soul and it being good enough to accept, or dance to - well, then I will be completely out.

Wasn't Soul music about us as humans finding connection with each other and the music as one?

Was it ever really about SOUL for many people, or just stuff to dance to?

What's the point of listening to purely AI music?  How does it enrich your life or provide comfort?  Human connection is the deepest thing we have and at the end, all we were left with.  AI techno for dancing, sure - there's a logic there. But music where the warmth of humans writing, playing, creating, orchestrating and producing together is what made it, then for me, AI has no purpose.  So what if it sounds like a Roy Hamilton song?  It simply isn't.

There are musicians and singers all over waiting to engage, to perform. But as is often the case, it will be the easiest route that will lead to an intangible but profound loss we only see later on.

It's a machine, it's not just a slippery slope, it's far more. Soon that stuff will become part of the reference engine it is creating from.  It'll give you what you want, but be careful what you ask for. Too much (musicial) sugar will rot the teeth.

I wouldn't bother too much with the Poll results, people like me just will not engage with it.

It's all gone a bit quick towards acceptance for me. Sorry if I sound a curmudgeon, but Soul music is a respite from artificiality and yet here it is in the forum and the thread. The 'it's here, so we need to accept it' line is heinous, of course we don't.  We don't accept other things about technology and the online world just because they are inevitably possible.

"Good Music will always be the winner, wether it’s humans or Robots who make it"

Not for me. What's being ignored here is feel, passion, sweat, groove, connection, talent, craft, skill, care, fury, loss, regret, interaction, synchonicity, dedication, ambition, love - those are feelings and states we need to prize and remember that matter. That are embedded into the music.

Think forward, where does this take Northern / Modern Soul or indeed any music like this in ten years time?

'ChatGPT create me a song about society today using The Impressions 'Keep On Pushing'... coming soon

What I think doesn't matter, it is going to happen anyway, but it just won't be for me.

Edited 2 hours ago by Thinksmart

[Paraboliccurve]

21 minutes ago, Thinksmart said:

Frankly this thread has me pretty down, but to add another view point I'll give a contrary view. There is loads of new Soul music released that most people at the forum ignore, yet for the articifical clone of the sixty year old sound - AI is starting to be accepted.  It seems that so long as it sounds Northern Soul to some, well that's enough. It's not for me.

I use AI in my work, I understand it well as a tool. But when we get to the point mentioned above, of AI replicating old Soul and it being good enough to accept, or dance to - well, then I will be completely out.

Wasn't Soul music about us as humans finding connection with each other and the music as one?

Was it ever really about SOUL for many people, or just stuff to dance to?

What's the point of listening to purely AI music?  How does it enrich your life or provide comfort?  Human connection is the deepest thing we have and at the end, all we were left with.  AI techno for dancing, sure - there's a logic there. But music where the warmth of humans writing, playing, creating, orchestrating and producing together is what made it, then for me, it has no purpose.  So what if it sounds like a Roy Hamilton song?  It simply isn't.

There are musicians and singers all over waiting to engage, to perform. But as is often the case, it will be the easiest route that will lead to an intangible but profound loss we only see later on.

It's a machine, it's not just a slippery slope, it's far more. Soon that stuff will become part of the reference engine it is creating from.  It'll give you what you want, but be careful what you ask for. 

I wouldn't bother too much with the Poll results, people like me just will not engage with it.

It's all gone a bit quick towards acceptance for me. Sorry if I sound a curmudeon, but Soul music is a respite from artificiality and yet here it is in the forum and the thread. The 'it's here, so we need to accept it' line is heinous, of course we don't. 

What's being ignored here is feel, passion, sweat, groove, connection, talent, craft, skill, care, fury, loss, regret, interaction, synchonicity - those are feelings and states we need to prize and remember that matter. 

'ChatGPT create me a song about society today using The Impressions 'Keep On Pushing'... coming soon

I wonder if people made the same arguments against the use of reverb to artificially enhance a recording? Or layering? Or clackers to replicate clapping? Probably. Dylan lost half his audience overnight by plugging his guitar in, after all. 
 

Ironically, the main reason I don't like much soul from the mid 80s on is the (often) artificial-sounding drums, and use of synths.
 

I have never understood all this stuff about 'wasn't Soul music about us as humans finding connection with each other and the music as one?'
 

Nope - it was about young black Americans having fun making music and trying to make a buck, and (in our case) mostly young white Brits dancing to it and collecting the records. 

I love the McKinney Magnetics. They didn't make very many records. If AI can hypothesise as to what else they might have made if they'd had the direction I'm all in. As long as I know it's AI, who loses?

Edited 3 hours ago by Paraboliccurve
Splelnig misteak

[Paraboliccurve]

22 minutes ago, Thinksmart said:

What's the point of listening to purely AI music?  How does it enrich your life or provide comfort?  Human connection is the deepest thing we have and at the end, all we were left with...

What's being ignored here is feel, passion, sweat, groove, connection, talent, craft, skill, care, fury, loss, regret, interaction, synchonicity - those are feelings and states we need to prize and remember that matter. 

Just to add a bit more. 
 

AI music may (or may not) enrich your life by producing sounds you enjoy listening to. Not very different to a trad record in that narrow sense.

You can get plenty of human connection  in other ways than from records - to be honest, the nerdiest collectors and soulies always seemed to me to be the most in need of connection with actual humans!

Re the intangibles you list - you get some of this live, I agree, but the recording process is actually often quite stale... multiple takes, lots of fiddling with sliders etc.

And I think we kid ourselves sometimes about passion and regret and all that (and even the great intangible, 'soul'); I have no idea whether Guitar Ray ever had a woman who was going to wreck his life or he was just summoning up ersatz 'emotion' in an attempt to gull blokes who'd just been turfed out by their wives into paying 25c for his latest single, but there has to be a chance that it's the latter.

Surely every Delta bluesman didn't actually wake up every morning looking for a razor blade?

In other words, artifice abounds  

 

 

[Thinksmart]

Dylan still wrote those songs. I'm not against adding to music. I've experimented with music technologies, but it was ultimately me doing it. I've released dance and ambient music, I know the value of the technology. I've also been bored in a studio trying to record a band who cannot get it together.  

I made ambient music using various AI incarnations with such as Koan and others and while it is 'fine', it lacks. Nobody listens to it. It's hard to put a finger on.

"You can get plenty of human connection  in other ways than from records" - But I already get it from music and all that comes with it.

"Nope - it was about young black Americans having fun making music and trying to make a buck, and (in our case) mostly young white Brits dancing to it and collecting the records. " - but it also expressed those things and so much more, even if it was out for a buck. Shoestring labels paid orchestral sections for the love of getting the music perfect as they heard it. 

"I love the McKinney Magnetics. They didn't make very many records. If AI can hypothesise as to what else they might have made if they'd had the direction I'm all in. As long as I know it's AI, who loses?" - it might be interesting as novelty, but will you keep listening to it? Who knows, it is inevitable. New albums by the Beatles ...or Darrell Banks?  Less than a decade away technically to be any good, it will be interesting to see at what point the public doesn't care about the roots.

Artifice and pretend is one thing, artificial is another.  Somehow there's a difference to me in Juan Atkins making a futuristic track on basic machinery called Techno Music in 1985 in his bedroom and inspiring a genre along with others and an algorithm needing no interaction to churn out replicant techno endlessly.  Will this also cause music to plateau in terms of its evolution?  Eventually, who or what pushes it onwards?

Anyway, as I envisaged, it seems it is just me and others are comfortable with it.  I cannot quite articulate the sense of loss I have impending.

It feels odd feeling somehow curious for defending the wonder of what we already have. Surely nobody can think of the artificial copies as equal in quality, but perhaps that doesn't matter to others. I'm not making a judgement, I'm just somewhat surprised at how readily people are in on AI music. Enjoy it I suppose.

I'll leave the topic again now, I just wanted to say that not everyone feels the same.

I can see it now.... "All AI songs must on original vinyl only"

Best wishes all

Edited 1 hour ago by Thinksmart

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Thinksmart said:

Frankly this thread has me pretty down, but to add another view point I'll give a contrary range of thoughts. If you're comfortable with AI and Soul music or see it as inevitable, then feel free to scroll past this message entirely. 

There is loads of new Soul music released that most people at the forum ignore, yet for the articifical clone of the sixty year old sound - AI is starting to be accepted.  It seems that so long as it sounds Northern Soul to some, well that's enough. It's not for me.

I use AI in my work, I understand it well as a tool. But when we get to the point mentioned above, of AI replicating old Soul and it being good enough to accept, or dance to - well, then I will be completely out.

Wasn't Soul music about us as humans finding connection with each other and the music as one?

Was it ever really about SOUL for many people, or just stuff to dance to?

What's the point of listening to purely AI music?  How does it enrich your life or provide comfort?  Human connection is the deepest thing we have and at the end, all we were left with.  AI techno for dancing, sure - there's a logic there. But music where the warmth of humans writing, playing, creating, orchestrating and producing together is what made it, then for me, AI has no purpose.  So what if it sounds like a Roy Hamilton song?  It simply isn't.

There are musicians and singers all over waiting to engage, to perform. But as is often the case, it will be the easiest route that will lead to an intangible but profound loss we only see later on.

It's a machine, it's not just a slippery slope, it's far more. Soon that stuff will become part of the reference engine it is creating from.  It'll give you what you want, but be careful what you ask for. Too much (musicial) sugar will rot the teeth.

I wouldn't bother too much with the Poll results, people like me just will not engage with it.

It's all gone a bit quick towards acceptance for me. Sorry if I sound a curmudgeon, but Soul music is a respite from artificiality and yet here it is in the forum and the thread. The 'it's here, so we need to accept it' line is heinous, of course we don't.  We don't accept other things about technology and the online world just because they are inevitably possible.

"Good Music will always be the winner, wether it’s humans or Robots who make it"

Not for me. What's being ignored here is feel, passion, sweat, groove, connection, talent, craft, skill, care, fury, loss, regret, interaction, synchonicity, dedication, ambition, love - those are feelings and states we need to prize and remember that matter. That are embedded into the music.

Think forward, where does this take Northern / Modern Soul or indeed any music like this in ten years time?

'ChatGPT create me a song about society today using The Impressions 'Keep On Pushing'... coming soon

What I think doesn't matter, it is going to happen anyway, but it just won't be for me.

There is very little 60s turning up or being released now.  The rest of the new releases are getting poorer in quality and I've stopped buying a lot, the unreleased stuff seems to have just about dried up.  The newer stuff many are computerised instruments and many of the vocals are pretty poor.  The Daptone and similar labels all seem to be trying to produce throwback type groups all sounding the same.