What Goes up Must Come Down (Soul Inc / The Charms Unlimited

[Soul-slider]

On 11/11/2024 at 08:06, Mal C said:

I know Trev, I like that "somebody pressed the record button too late" it smacks of those cock ups that make record collecting so interesting. Love the Soul Supply guys, their LP's were essential, but there have been a few instances where the wrong track was laid next to the wrong title, Soul Incorporated on Emblem (Yellow and shield design) for instance on the 'Untouchables' LP... maybe that’s for another thread.

 

Yes, I spotted that Soul Incorporated track on the 'Untouchables' LP, it was the other version by 'The Charms Unlimited' on the red/white Emblem label wasn't it Mal?

I think they were the same group, just 2 different recordings of that tune.

Edited November 17 by Soul-slider

[Mal C]

10 hours ago, Soul-slider said:

Yes, I spotted that Soul Incorporated track on the 'Untouchables' LP, it was the other version by 'The Charms Unlimited' on the red/white Emblem label wasn't it Mal?

I think they were the same group, just 2 different recordings of that tune.

Yep, same group, two different recordings, the Live one came out on the wholey live Lp on Emblem, very scant detail on the label or sleeve, but running time 2.18, then again on the Yellow label Emblem 45 same cut, but with longer runnin time 2.23.   Then a studio cut came out on the 'Charms Unlimited' on the red/yellow/white Emblem label with an additional ten seconds, or there about. Scans below, dont own the yellow one.

 

[Mal C]

Grabbed this off the net. It would be good to work out which one came first, were these guys in the studio first, or did they decide on a live recording of their gigs, then get the chance to record in the studio.  I'm guessing Deacon Poole Promotions were an arm of Calico Enterprises.

Just listened to the Lp again, WGUMCD is the only track on there that doesnt have any crowd on the audio. This is a guess, but I wonder whether they intended to release that as a 45, and maybe recorded it in the warm up, or without the club being full... then, why the name change?

[Kenb]

2 hours ago, Mal C said:

Grabbed this off the net. It would be good to work out which one came first, were these guys in the studio first, or did they decide on a live recording of their gigs, then get the chance to record in the studio.  I'm guessing Deacon Poole Promotions were an arm of Calico Enterprises.

Just listened to the Lp again, WGUMCD is the only track on there that doesnt have any crowd on the audio. This is a guess, but I wonder whether they intended to release that as a 45, and maybe recorded it in the warm up, or without the club being full... then, why the name change?

 

It's a good question, and one i'd pondered several times wrt The live album versus the single.

Soul Inc members had come via iterations of the Medallions, Pieces of Eight, etc. to form as Soul Inc in about Sept 1966. "Good To The Last Drop/What Goes Up Must Come Down" was being touted as a release in Autum 1967 and a major West Coast label were interested in the band.

The Cellar in Charlotte, NC (where the Emblem label had the live performance recorded) opened in April 1965. Artists that played there included The Tams, Major Lance, and Barbara Lewis to name a few.

In April 1968 Soul Inc at The Cellar ( this relates to the LP) was also being touted as released.

So, on Discographies we have, 

Soul Inc, S-100 / S-101, as 1967. Recorded Live at The Cellar

Soul Inc, LP 106 live at The Cellar, as 1968

The Charms, E109, as 1969 

I think it's safe to assume that Soul Inc, were only live at The Cellar once where a recording was made. I doubt anyone would set up a mobile recording facility for a single (S-100) and then again for a LP (106) sometime later. In which case the Single & LP release dates may be wrong. Could the Single have been released from the LP? But how, it can't have been released in 1967 if the Live recorded album hadn't been recorded until 1968? 

It's not to say he (Joe) didn't have one, but I don't know of any mobile recording facility at Joe Huffman's Mark V studio in Greenville. So i suspect S 100 was likely something that he produced but wasn't recording at his Studio. 

 

 

 

[Benji]

According to Discogs and based on the linked YT vids as reference (and I know how easy it is to link the wrong video) my understanding is:

7" Emblem 101 - Soul Inc. WGUMCD (Studio Cut)

LP Emblem 106 - Soul Inc WGUMCD (Studio cut, rest of album is "live")

7" Emblem 109 - Charts Unlimited WGUMCD (same song but completely different version)

Correct?

PS: Sorry for hijacking the John & Wierdest thread.

[Mal C]

I thought I had it, but the reverse of the Lp, talks about the opening of the Cellar club, not the night or importantly, the date of the Soul Inc Gig.

"Without Fanfare or Publicity there opened in the spring of 1966 in the basement of an old vacant building on East Morehead Street in Charlotte Carolina, a small club aptly names 'The Cellar Club’.

I would say, from the quality of 'WGUMCD' against the rest of the tracks on the Lp, that it's recorded elsewhere and at a different time to the Lp, this is just a guess. 

So, Soul Inc form in Sept 1966. I think that there was a recording session of 'WGUMCD' and that was used in the Yellow Emblem single and added to the LP there after.

How does that work?

25 minutes ago, Benji said:

According to Discogs and based on the linked YT vids as reference (and I know how easy it is to link the wrong video) my understanding is:

7" Emblem 101 - Soul Inc. WGUMCD (Studio Cut)

LP Emblem 106 - Soul Inc WGUMCD (Studio cut, rest of album is "live")

7" Emblem 109 - Charts Unlimited WGUMCD (same song but completely different version)

Correct?

PS: Sorry for hijacking the John & Wierdest thread.

Not at all, I love threads like this... In fact I think I have come to the same conclusion as you Benji, and Ken has said the same, it was recorded elsewhere, the Yellow 45 and track one/side two on the LP. It has to be.

When? no idea, but late 66 into 67? 

re the name change, lots of Soul Inc's out there, and groups that form from other groups do seem to suffer issues with group names.

I think it's likely that this is the issue here, it maybe that the 3 approx years we are discussing was too much without having anything much on the market, or very little. Members leave, and new group forms under a new name, and they have cut an old track.

[Benji]

Soul Inc 7" and LP version of WGUMCD sound like the same version to me. Clearly studio recordings. Maybe they didn't have enough live material for an entire album and added this studio cut?

[Dobber]

The charms ltd is the same song as mentioned,the live one sounds different because on the night they may have just played it that way

personally I much prefer the charms 45 because it’s the one I heard first in the 80’s off tgesoul supply lp!

the charms ltd 45 is actually very rare,try getting one!

[Mal C]

1 hour ago, Benji said:

Soul Inc 7" and LP version of WGUMCD sound like the same version to me. Clearly studio recordings. Maybe they didn't have enough live material for an entire album and added this studio cut?

I think it goes like this, if they had this one studio track in 66/67 say, plus some songs for a b-side (Chappel Bells are Calling)? which isnt on the LP, and they are doing live gigs, it doesnt take much of a leap to say, why dont  we record a live LP of one of our gigs, and we can put that studio track on it, and also put it out as a 45, hense the reference to the live LP on the yellow emblem 45.

Come 69, some sort of shake up in the group, and they are re born into Charms Unlimited, and they say, or the label suggests, why dont you re-record that first 45, and we can put that out.

Probably over complicated a very simple series of events, but aside of getting it from the horses mouth, that sound right to me.

* does anybody have the 'Heeey Baby Days Of Beach Music' to hand? it was deffo in there.

[Kenb]

32 minutes ago, Mal C said:

I think it goes like this, if they had this one studio track in 66/67 say, plus some songs for a b-side (Chappel Bells are Calling)? which isnt on the LP, and they are doing live gigs, it doesnt take much of a leap to say, why dont  we record a live LP of one of our gigs, and we can put that studio track on it, and also put it out as a 45, hense the reference to the live LP on the yellow emblem 45.

Come 69, some sort of shake up in the group, and they are re born into Charms Unlimited, and they say, or the label suggests, why dont you re-record that first 45, and we can put that out.

Probably over complicated a very simple series of events, but aside of getting it from the horses mouth, that sound right to me.

* does anybody have the 'Heeey Baby Days Of Beach Music' to hand? it was deffo in there.

I'd go with that...on the Charms 45 credits, Gil Few came from The Spurrlows (joined in 1965) and Frank Graham went onto The Columbians, formed in 1967 ( & music scholarship at Benedict College). Which may of-course just mean they did what they did on the 45 i.e. Arrangement...and as you say it was just a later name change.

Edited November 18 by Kenb

[Soul-slider]

'Live' LP cut, supposedly the yellow Emblem 101 release...

 

Edited November 18 by Soul-slider

[Soul-slider]

The 'Charms Unlimited' 45 (Emblem 109, also used on the Soul Supply LP)...

 

Edited November 18 by Soul-slider

[Windlesoul]

Not sure if this complicates things, adds info or is completely irrelevant to the discussion, but may as well throw it in the pot. 'The Charms' 45 on Emblem (as in "If You Got the Notion") were in fact Moses Dillard and pals on most of the instrumentation (he arranged IYGTN, and the band did studio backing for a number of artists at Mark V in Greenville, SC). Johnny Few however was definitely lead singer on IYGTN. 

The Charms 'Unlimited' "What goes up must come down" 45 on the other hand was recorded at Arthur Smiths studio in Charlotte, NC - Don Strawn (named on credits) was that studio's main sound engineer.

Meanwhile, me and Nat Speir of the Rivieras, outside the entrance of The Cellar in Charlotte... 

Edited November 19 by Windlesoul

[Kenb]

Hi Mark,

Is that outside 300 E. Moorhead St ? or had it been re-developed at the time of the photo?

[Mal C]

Awful scan, but Moses Dillard's name is on there, and Ritchie Adams, Congress fame, not the same guy?

I guess we have neglected this release, does help tell this story?  I found this from the’ Heey baby’ website which outlines all the different members, and the chronology finishes in 69, but no reference to the 'Charms Unlimited' group name, or any links to Soul Inc (pic below) but obviously they are in some form??

Two groups, maybe some crossover of members, but actually Soul Inc and Charms Unlimited only share a song and a label between them?

http://www.heybabydays.com/Charms.pdf

Anybody got the 'Heey baby’book with interview with the lead singer Johnny Few?

[Windlesoul]

17 minutes ago, Kenb said:

Hi Mark,

Is that outside 300 E. Moorhead St ? or had it been re-developed at the time of the photo?

The pic is from 2013/14. We struggled to find it at first but Nat recognised it as The Rivieras played there loads in the 60s, as did The Tempests and 100s of other local bands we'd be interested in. From memory it was sort of between a parking lot and dwarfed by glass and concrete buildings. Looked a bit out of place TBH. I wonder if it's even still standing now.

 

Edited November 19 by Windlesoul

[Windlesoul]

10 minutes ago, Mal C said:

Awful scan, but Moses Dillard's name is on there, and Ritchie Adams, ABC fame, not the same guy?

I guess we have neglected this release, does help tell this story?  I found this from the’ Heey baby’ website which outlines all the different members, and the chronology finishes in 69, but no reference to the 'Charms Unlimited' group name, or any links to Soul Inc,  but obviously they are in some form.

http://www.heybabydays.com/Charms.pdf

Anybody got the 'Heey baby’book with interview on Johnny Few?

Sadly no longer have my copy of the book, but can probably get a hold the relevent pages if no one posts up sooner. The Charms line up over the  5ish year period is big and interchangeable, but not at all unusual for Carolina bands (college, Vietnam, family etc) and there's clearly a big change in personnel by the time  of Charms Unlimited. 

[Windlesoul]

Johnny Few is (or was) on FB by the way.

[Soul-slider]

I have the book. I'll find the Johnny Few interview later today.

[Windlesoul]

Freedom, "the group formerly known as Soul Inc." Sort of. As also mentioned in the Charms personnel listing. 

[Soul-slider]

As promised here is the interview with Johnny Few from the 'Hey Baby Days' book.

Apologies for the images but had to take with my phone camera, hopefully it is readable.

 

[Chalky]

Images form Heeey Baby posted same time as @Soul-slider

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19 by Chalky

[Soul-slider]

2 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Images form Heeey Baby posted same time as @Soul-slider

 

 

 

 

 

Like buses, you wait for ages then 2 come at once! 

[Mal C]

Seems his (Johnny Few) mate Tommy Toglio's olderbrother played with Soul Inc.  I have reached out to Johnny on FB, I'll report back if he replies. I hope he does.

[Gaz T]

I must say in my view the Soul Inc 45 absolutely beats the charms unlimited version into the ground 

soul inc is raw , fierce and powerful with a great arrangement 

the other version doesn’t do it for me 

Just my preference 

[Gaz T]

Oh , I just noticed the LP version of the Soul Inc is also completely different take  to the Soul Inc 45 version 

the 45 version is much better than the lp version 

Anyone else notice ?

 

[Soul-slider]

23 hours ago, Gaz T said:

Oh , I just noticed the LP version of the Soul Inc is also completely different take  to the Soul Inc 45 version 

the 45 version is much better than the lp version 

Anyone else notice ?

There seems to be no sound-file or youtube clips available of the yellow labelled Emblem 101 so only owners of that particular 45 know for sure, and there doesn't seem to be many of those around! Obviously you are one Gaz? Any chance of a soundfile/WAV or MP3?

[Blackpoolsoul]

12 hours ago, Soul-slider said:

There seems to be no sound-file or youtube clips available of the yellow labelled Emblem 101 so only owners of that particular 45 know for sure, and there doesn't seem to be many of those around! Obviously you are one Gaz? Any chance of a soundfile/WAV or MP3?

 

 

[Blackpoolsoul]

Now we know where the cellar was exactly and what it looked like

Edited Friday at 09:21 by Blackpoolsoul

[Mal C]

On 27/11/2024 at 20:48, Gaz T said:

Oh , I just noticed the LP version of the Soul Inc is also completely different take  to the Soul Inc 45 version 

the 45 version is much better than the lp version 

Anyone else notice ?

 

I haven't got the yellow 45 so I cannot listen to them back to back. You say it (Yellow Emblem) is totally different to the LP version,  how so, outside running time, how is it different Gaz?

I do think, it is highly unlikely there would be two recordings of WGUMCD pre the LP.  I think it’s the same studio recording used for the yellow 45 and the Lp but just shortened. The problem here, is as Ken mentioned above, it's the recording dates, and release dates, they dont make sense. The only way to make sense of them,  is to say they must have kept the live recording in the can quite a long time, before they put the Lp out. Then the question is, was WGUMCD recorded in the studio, or at the live gig? lable says live recording, well it does not sound like it to my ears, so again it's down to the recording dates.

Outside of that tangled mess, here is my assumption.  think about it, you have a reel of a live recording, and a reel with a studio recording, and you have to get them seemingly nice and level onto one lp, there is a bit of work to make that happen in the studio, not that they had many tracks or really good blending techniques back then, so the Lp is shortened. Also, no crowd on the Lp version, it sits there on its own as the first track of side two.

Yellow label Emblem 45 running time 2.23
Emblem LP running time 2.18

Regarding my initial assumption that these two recordings of WGUMCD are by the same group, one morphed into the other. I don’t think so. I think there may have been some members of Soul Inc that played with the Charms, then Charms Unlimited, then as Mark mentioned 'Freedom', but outside that, I think they share a single label, and a single song. Soul Inc is not the same group Charms Unlimited, which should have been bloody obvious to me from the start! laughing

Finally, I did reach out to Johnny Few, no reply I'm afraid. I think it is probably worth going through the different group’s line-ups, just so we can highlight the members that played across them.

Nice touch on the pic Alan, where did that come from?

[Kenb]

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Now we know where the cellar was exactly and what it looked like

That little driveway was between the BSR Building (at that time used by the federal gov, revenue, taxes, etc) and Condors. Concrete floor. Club owner Larry Pressley,

Edited Friday at 10:34 by Kenb

[Kenb]

1 hour ago, Mal C said:

 

Finally, I did reach out to Johnny Few, no reply I'm afraid. I think it is probably worth going through the different group’s line-ups, just so we can highlight the members that played across them.

 

Irrespective of the swaps & switches on Soul Inc and those listed on Discogs, the band members on WGUPMCD were Freddie Pugh, Eddie Zomerfield, Skip Davis, Edgar Smith, Robbie Robinson and Pete Toglio.

does that help?

[Mal C]

7 minutes ago, Kenb said:

Irrespective of the swaps & switches on Soul Inc and those listed on Discogs, the band members on WGUPMCD were Freddie Pugh, Eddie Zomerfield, Skip Davis, Edgar Smith, Robbie Robinson and Pete Toglio.

does that help?

It's a great start Ken, I'll do a comparrison using what info we have, Discogs, your list, and the Heey baby lists, see how it all sits.. bare with me.

[Soul-slider]

9 hours ago, Mal C said:

I haven't got the yellow 45 so I cannot listen to them back to back. You say it (Yellow Emblem) is totally different to the LP version,  how so, outside running time, how is it different Gaz?

I do think, it is highly unlikely there would be two recordings of WGUMCD pre the LP.  I think it’s the same studio recording used for the yellow 45 and the Lp but just shortened. The problem here, is as Ken mentioned above, it's the recording dates, and release dates, they dont make sense. The only way to make sense of them,  is to say they must have kept the live recording in the can quite a long time, before they put the Lp out. Then the question is, was WGUMCD recorded in the studio, or at the live gig? lable says live recording, well it does not sound like it to my ears, so again it's down to the recording dates.

Outside of that tangled mess, here is my assumption.  think about it, you have a reel of a live recording, and a reel with a studio recording, and you have to get them seemingly nice and level onto one lp, there is a bit of work to make that happen in the studio, not that they had many tracks or really good blending techniques back then, so the Lp is shortened. Also, no crowd on the Lp version, it sits there on its own as the first track of side two.

Yellow label Emblem 45 running time 2.23
Emblem LP running time 2.18

Regarding my initial assumption that these two recordings of WGUMCD are by the same group, one morphed into the other. I don’t think so. I think there may have been some members of Soul Inc that played with the Charms, then Charms Unlimited, then as Mark mentioned 'Freedom', but outside that, I think they share a single label, and a single song. Soul Inc is not the same group Charms Unlimited, which should have been bloody obvious to me from the start! laughing

Finally, I did reach out to Johnny Few, no reply I'm afraid. I think it is probably worth going through the different group’s line-ups, just so we can highlight the members that played across them.

Nice touch on the pic Alan, where did that come from?

Blackpoolsoul has posted a sound file (youtube) of the yellow labelled Emblem 45 a few posts above yours. It is the same recording as the 'live' LP but for a few differences. The first difference I notice is the very start and elongated horns after the initial organ starts, the horns are shorter on the LP.  I'll have another proper listen and compare but the longer horns possibly explain the 5 seconds added time on the 45?

[Gaz T]

On 29/11/2024 at 19:34, Soul-slider said:

Blackpoolsoul has posted a sound file (youtube) of the yellow labelled Emblem 45 a few posts above yours. It is the same recording as the 'live' LP but for a few differences. The first difference I notice is the very start and elongated horns after the initial organ starts, the horns are shorter on the LP.  I'll have another proper listen and compare but the longer horns possibly explain the 5 seconds added time on the 45?

Yellow 45 has a rawer production , organ and drums are louder , just much better all round IMO 

[Mal C]

But is it the same recording, then outputted twice for a 45 and then LP track?

I think it is. The differences we hear are in the final mixing and then process to press. 

[Soul-slider]

3 hours ago, Mal C said:

But is it the same recording, then outputted twice for a 45 and then LP track?

I think it is. The differences we hear are in the final mixing and then process to press. 

I'd agree with that Mal.

[Gaz T]

I agree 

same take for lp and  45 but 2 totally different mixes  with 45 having  louder bass , drumming is louder. 
 

it is a great tune IMO

Has it ever had plays on NS scene ?

certainly has all the right  elements IMO

I can’t remember ever hearing it out when I used to be out and about in the 80s n 90s 

 

 

 

 

[Gaz T]

The wgumcd side must have been a studio version  recorded  separately 

The b side has different production credits (Moses Dillard)

if they were both  recorded live at the same time they would have the same production wouldn’t they