What Goes up Must Come Down (Soul Inc / The Charms Unlimited

[Soul-slider]

On 11/11/2024 at 08:06, Mal C said:

I know Trev, I like that "somebody pressed the record button too late" it smacks of those cock ups that make record collecting so interesting. Love the Soul Supply guys, their LP's were essential, but there have been a few instances where the wrong track was laid next to the wrong title, Soul Incorporated on Emblem (Yellow and shield design) for instance on the 'Untouchables' LP... maybe that’s for another thread.

 

Yes, I spotted that Soul Incorporated track on the 'Untouchables' LP, it was the other version by 'The Charms Unlimited' on the red/white Emblem label wasn't it Mal?

I think they were the same group, just 2 different recordings of that tune.

Edited November 17 by Soul-slider

[Mal C]

10 hours ago, Soul-slider said:

Yes, I spotted that Soul Incorporated track on the 'Untouchables' LP, it was the other version by 'The Charms Unlimited' on the red/white Emblem label wasn't it Mal?

I think they were the same group, just 2 different recordings of that tune.

Yep, same group, two different recordings, the Live one came out on the wholey live Lp on Emblem, very scant detail on the label or sleeve, but running time 2.18, then again on the Yellow label Emblem 45 same cut, but with longer runnin time 2.23.   Then a studio cut came out on the 'Charms Unlimited' on the red/yellow/white Emblem label with an additional ten seconds, or there about. Scans below, dont own the yellow one.

 

[Mal C]

Grabbed this off the net. It would be good to work out which one came first, were these guys in the studio first, or did they decide on a live recording of their gigs, then get the chance to record in the studio.  I'm guessing Deacon Poole Promotions were an arm of Calico Enterprises.

Just listened to the Lp again, WGUMCD is the only track on there that doesnt have any crowd on the audio. This is a guess, but I wonder whether they intended to release that as a 45, and maybe recorded it in the warm up, or without the club being full... then, why the name change?

[Kenb]

2 hours ago, Mal C said:

Grabbed this off the net. It would be good to work out which one came first, were these guys in the studio first, or did they decide on a live recording of their gigs, then get the chance to record in the studio.  I'm guessing Deacon Poole Promotions were an arm of Calico Enterprises.

Just listened to the Lp again, WGUMCD is the only track on there that doesnt have any crowd on the audio. This is a guess, but I wonder whether they intended to release that as a 45, and maybe recorded it in the warm up, or without the club being full... then, why the name change?

 

It's a good question, and one i'd pondered several times wrt The live album versus the single.

Soul Inc members had come via iterations of the Medallions, Pieces of Eight, etc. to form as Soul Inc in about Sept 1966. "Good To The Last Drop/What Goes Up Must Come Down" was being touted as a release in Autum 1967 and a major West Coast label were interested in the band.

The Cellar in Charlotte, NC (where the Emblem label had the live performance recorded) opened in April 1965. Artists that played there included The Tams, Major Lance, and Barbara Lewis to name a few.

In April 1968 Soul Inc at The Cellar ( this relates to the LP) was also being touted as released.

So, on Discographies we have, 

Soul Inc, S-100 / S-101, as 1967. Recorded Live at The Cellar

Soul Inc, LP 106 live at The Cellar, as 1968

The Charms, E109, as 1969 

I think it's safe to assume that Soul Inc, were only live at The Cellar once where a recording was made. I doubt anyone would set up a mobile recording facility for a single (S-100) and then again for a LP (106) sometime later. In which case the Single & LP release dates may be wrong. Could the Single have been released from the LP? But how, it can't have been released in 1967 if the Live recorded album hadn't been recorded until 1968? 

It's not to say he (Joe) didn't have one, but I don't know of any mobile recording facility at Joe Huffman's Mark V studio in Greenville. So i suspect S 100 was likely something that he produced but wasn't recording at his Studio. 

 

 

 

[Benji]

According to Discogs and based on the linked YT vids as reference (and I know how easy it is to link the wrong video) my understanding is:

7" Emblem 101 - Soul Inc. WGUMCD (Studio Cut)

LP Emblem 106 - Soul Inc WGUMCD (Studio cut, rest of album is "live")

7" Emblem 109 - Charts Unlimited WGUMCD (same song but completely different version)

Correct?

PS: Sorry for hijacking the John & Wierdest thread.

[Mal C]

I thought I had it, but the reverse of the Lp, talks about the opening of the Cellar club, not the night or importantly, the date of the Soul Inc Gig.

"Without Fanfare or Publicity there opened in the spring of 1966 in the basement of an old vacant building on East Morehead Street in Charlotte Carolina, a small club aptly names 'The Cellar Club’.

I would say, from the quality of 'WGUMCD' against the rest of the tracks on the Lp, that it's recorded elsewhere and at a different time to the Lp, this is just a guess. 

So, Soul Inc form in Sept 1966. I think that there was a recording session of 'WGUMCD' and that was used in the Yellow Emblem single and added to the LP there after.

How does that work?

25 minutes ago, Benji said:

According to Discogs and based on the linked YT vids as reference (and I know how easy it is to link the wrong video) my understanding is:

7" Emblem 101 - Soul Inc. WGUMCD (Studio Cut)

LP Emblem 106 - Soul Inc WGUMCD (Studio cut, rest of album is "live")

7" Emblem 109 - Charts Unlimited WGUMCD (same song but completely different version)

Correct?

PS: Sorry for hijacking the John & Wierdest thread.

Not at all, I love threads like this... In fact I think I have come to the same conclusion as you Benji, and Ken has said the same, it was recorded elsewhere, the Yellow 45 and track one/side two on the LP. It has to be.

When? no idea, but late 66 into 67? 

re the name change, lots of Soul Inc's out there, and groups that form from other groups do seem to suffer issues with group names.

I think it's likely that this is the issue here, it maybe that the 3 approx years we are discussing was too much without having anything much on the market, or very little. Members leave, and new group forms under a new name, and they have cut an old track.

[Benji]

Soul Inc 7" and LP version of WGUMCD sound like the same version to me. Clearly studio recordings. Maybe they didn't have enough live material for an entire album and added this studio cut?

[Dobber]

The charms ltd is the same song as mentioned,the live one sounds different because on the night they may have just played it that way

personally I much prefer the charms 45 because it’s the one I heard first in the 80’s off tgesoul supply lp!

the charms ltd 45 is actually very rare,try getting one!

[Mal C]

1 hour ago, Benji said:

Soul Inc 7" and LP version of WGUMCD sound like the same version to me. Clearly studio recordings. Maybe they didn't have enough live material for an entire album and added this studio cut?

I think it goes like this, if they had this one studio track in 66/67 say, plus some songs for a b-side (Chappel Bells are Calling)? which isnt on the LP, and they are doing live gigs, it doesnt take much of a leap to say, why dont  we record a live LP of one of our gigs, and we can put that studio track on it, and also put it out as a 45, hense the reference to the live LP on the yellow emblem 45.

Come 69, some sort of shake up in the group, and they are re born into Charms Unlimited, and they say, or the label suggests, why dont you re-record that first 45, and we can put that out.

Probably over complicated a very simple series of events, but aside of getting it from the horses mouth, that sound right to me.

* does anybody have the 'Heeey Baby Days Of Beach Music' to hand? it was deffo in there.

[Kenb]

32 minutes ago, Mal C said:

I think it goes like this, if they had this one studio track in 66/67 say, plus some songs for a b-side (Chappel Bells are Calling)? which isnt on the LP, and they are doing live gigs, it doesnt take much of a leap to say, why dont  we record a live LP of one of our gigs, and we can put that studio track on it, and also put it out as a 45, hense the reference to the live LP on the yellow emblem 45.

Come 69, some sort of shake up in the group, and they are re born into Charms Unlimited, and they say, or the label suggests, why dont you re-record that first 45, and we can put that out.

Probably over complicated a very simple series of events, but aside of getting it from the horses mouth, that sound right to me.

* does anybody have the 'Heeey Baby Days Of Beach Music' to hand? it was deffo in there.

I'd go with that...on the Charms 45 credits, Gil Few came from The Spurrlows (joined in 1965) and Frank Graham went onto The Columbians, formed in 1967 ( & music scholarship at Benedict College). Which may of-course just mean they did what they did on the 45 i.e. Arrangement...and as you say it was just a later name change.

Edited Monday at 17:21 by Kenb

[Soul-slider]

'Live' LP cut, supposedly the yellow Emblem 101 release...

 

Edited Monday at 21:43 by Soul-slider

[Soul-slider]

The 'Charms Unlimited' 45 (Emblem 109, also used on the Soul Supply LP)...

 

Edited Monday at 21:44 by Soul-slider

[Windlesoul]

Not sure if this complicates things, adds info or is completely irrelevant to the discussion, but may as well throw it in the pot. 'The Charms' 45 on Emblem (as in "If You Got the Notion") were in fact Moses Dillard and pals on most of the instrumentation (he arranged IYGTN, and the band did studio backing for a number of artists at Mark V in Greenville, SC). Johnny Few however was definitely lead singer on IYGTN. 

The Charms 'Unlimited' "What goes up must come down" 45 on the other hand was recorded at Arthur Smiths studio in Charlotte, NC - Don Strawn (named on credits) was that studio's main sound engineer.

Meanwhile, me and Nat Speir of the Rivieras, outside the entrance of The Cellar in Charlotte... 

Edited Tuesday at 09:20 by Windlesoul

[Kenb]

Hi Mark,

Is that outside 300 E. Moorhead St ? or had it been re-developed at the time of the photo?

[Mal C]

Awful scan, but Moses Dillard's name is on there, and Ritchie Adams, Congress fame, not the same guy?

I guess we have neglected this release, does help tell this story?  I found this from the’ Heey baby’ website which outlines all the different members, and the chronology finishes in 69, but no reference to the 'Charms Unlimited' group name, or any links to Soul Inc (pic below) but obviously they are in some form??

Two groups, maybe some crossover of members, but actually Soul Inc and Charms Unlimited only share a song and a label between them?

http://www.heybabydays.com/Charms.pdf

Anybody got the 'Heey baby’book with interview with the lead singer Johnny Few?

[Windlesoul]

17 minutes ago, Kenb said:

Hi Mark,

Is that outside 300 E. Moorhead St ? or had it been re-developed at the time of the photo?

The pic is from 2013/14. We struggled to find it at first but Nat recognised it as The Rivieras played there loads in the 60s, as did The Tempests and 100s of other local bands we'd be interested in. From memory it was sort of between a parking lot and dwarfed by glass and concrete buildings. Looked a bit out of place TBH. I wonder if it's even still standing now.

 

Edited Tuesday at 09:39 by Windlesoul

[Windlesoul]

10 minutes ago, Mal C said:

Awful scan, but Moses Dillard's name is on there, and Ritchie Adams, ABC fame, not the same guy?

I guess we have neglected this release, does help tell this story?  I found this from the’ Heey baby’ website which outlines all the different members, and the chronology finishes in 69, but no reference to the 'Charms Unlimited' group name, or any links to Soul Inc,  but obviously they are in some form.

http://www.heybabydays.com/Charms.pdf

Anybody got the 'Heey baby’book with interview on Johnny Few?

Sadly no longer have my copy of the book, but can probably get a hold the relevent pages if no one posts up sooner. The Charms line up over the  5ish year period is big and interchangeable, but not at all unusual for Carolina bands (college, Vietnam, family etc) and there's clearly a big change in personnel by the time  of Charms Unlimited. 

[Windlesoul]

Johnny Few is (or was) on FB by the way.

[Soul-slider]

I have the book. I'll find the Johnny Few interview later today.

[Windlesoul]

Freedom, "the group formerly known as Soul Inc." Sort of. As also mentioned in the Charms personnel listing. 

[Soul-slider]

As promised here is the interview with Johnny Few from the 'Hey Baby Days' book.

Apologies for the images but had to take with my phone camera, hopefully it is readable.

 

[Chalky]

Images form Heeey Baby posted same time as @Soul-slider

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 19:48 by Chalky

[Soul-slider]

2 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Images form Heeey Baby posted same time as @Soul-slider

 

 

 

 

 

Like buses, you wait for ages then 2 come at once! 

[Mal C]

Seems his (Johnny Few) mate Tommy Toglio's olderbrother played with Soul Inc.  I have reached out to Johnny on FB, I'll report back if he replies. I hope he does.

[Gaz T]

I must say in my view the Soul Inc 45 absolutely beats the charms unlimited version into the ground 

soul inc is raw , fierce and powerful with a great arrangement 

the other version doesn’t do it for me 

Just my preference