Golden World: Locals & Outsiders Involved

[Roburt]

Robb, lots of the info you just put up on the GW thread on Soulful Detroit should also go up on here as it adds more to the story ....   

[Robbk]

On 02/10/2024 at 11:37, Roburt said:

Robb, lots of the info you just put up on the GW thread on Soulful Detroit should also go up on here as it adds more to the story ....   

Here is my SDF post on The Chalfontes' relationship to LeBaron Taylor, Myto Music and Golden World, and Andre Williams', Dave Hamilton's, Don Juan Mancha's, and Sonny Sanders' relationship to Mercury Records 1965 & 1966 Detroit Soul production:  

The Chalfontes 2 Mercury records have always been a quandary for me. I guessed that Dynamic Hitbound Productions was run by Dave Hamilton, or was a partnership between Hamilton and Andre Williams.  But, I have since discovered that Lebaron Taylor was their manager.  There is one Chalfontes' song [[out of 4) that has Myto Music sharing the publishing, with Detroit Sound Music. Doc Kyle's Detroit Sound record label and recording studio was started in 1967, LATER than The Chalfontes' 2 Mercury releases, which I believe, were released in late 1965 and early 1966.

The first Detroit Sound label, with The Sequins' record, is listed on Discogs and 45 Cat as being released 1964. [[But it sounds as if it was recorded in '65). The Sequins' Detroit Sound record lists a "Taylor" as one of its 2 producers. Logic tells me that that, particular Taylor was LeBaron.  The 2 Detroit Sound-published Chalfontes' songs are credited to "Dynamic Hit Bound Productions". The credits listed include B. Sharpley [[real name of Detroit DJ, LeBaron Taylor [[Bill Sharpley) on the non-Myto side. I think Dynamic HitBound Productions is a partnership of LeBaron Taylor and one of the other credited people on the record, and that company's music publishing company seems to have been Detroit Sound Music.  Note the similarity between "Dynamic HitBound Productions" and LeBaron Taylor's later partnership with producer/label owner, Don Davis, in the similarly named "Solid Hitbound Productions".

Sonny Sanders, who was working for Golden World at the beginning of that time, along with Andre Williams, Dave Hamilton, and Don Mancha, was the only other name on the NON-Myto shared publishing side, other than LeBaron Taylor's original name (B.Sharpley). The side on which Myto shared the publishing with Detroit Sound has Don[[Juan) Mancha as the writer. So, apparently Mancha's Bosses, Golden World, shared the publishing with Taylor, only because Mancha wrote the song. The only other credit on the NON-Myto side was to Sonny Sanders. So, maybe Dynamic Hitbound [[was so similar to Solid Hitbound because Taylor owned it alone, or Taylor was in partnership with Sanders). It's even more complicated than that, because Andre Williams, who produced both sides of the OTHER Chalfontes' Mercury record, had a regular production contract with Mercury records producing records by other Detroit artists [[such as Jimmy Holland and several others), as well as a few Chicago artists. On that other Chalfontes' record, Williams worked with Dave Hamilton on both sides. The music on both was published by Mercury's MRC Music. So it seems likely that Williams was the source of all three of these projects to Mercury [[the 3rd being the unreleased cut by Dave Hamilton listed as being published [[or shared publishing) by Myto on Grapevine's list of oddball Myto-published songs (most of which were released on non-Wingate labels). That Dave Hamilton Myto song was perhaps the background instrumental tracks for another Chalfontes' Mercury production or Little Ann Ric-Tic production? 

Does anyone here know of any connections Don Mancha had with Golden World? I remember Steve Mancha writing some Myto songs for Don Davis' Groovesville Records 1001-1003, who were published by Myto to pay Wingate for distributing Davis' label, and using Wingate's facilities while Davis was producing and writing for Wingate's artists productions. But, I can't remember ANY credits for Don Mancha on Wingates' labels' records.  (I have since read Rob Moss' article on "The Story of Don Juan Mancha's Career", which, based on interviews with Mancha, mentions that he worked on several projects at Golden World just after Ed Wingate bought out Wilbur Golden's Correc-Tone Records, for whom Mancha worked.  He said that he worked on several record projects, a handful of which he got no credits.  Several of those were the most successful, including "Agent Double O Soul".  He mentioned that he wrote both sides of The Chalfontes' record that he got his one credit on.)    

I also can't remember, offhand, Sonny Sanders partnering with Andre Williams on Mercury any other Mercury projects (however, I suspect there were some others). But Williams seems to have had his production deal with Mercury run out of Mercury's Chicago office, to produce Chicago and Detroit Soul artist projects simulating "The Detroit Sound" and The Chicago Sound, approximately at the same time as Mercury gave Robert Bateman his contract to run a similar production out of their New York office.  Sanders could have been the connection with Myto, although he wasn't a writer of the song, only listed as its arranger.

The coincidence of Mercury seemingly making these 2 production deals to a current and former Detroit producer, both of whom worked at Motown for several years, looks suspiciously like that major national label, with offices in Chicago and New York, suddenly decided in 1965, when Motown broke out big, and many other Detroit Soul labels started popping up, to tap Detroit's plentiful now proven talent, so Mercury could take advantage of "The Detroit Soul Sound".  And, with Williams still operating BOTH out of Detroit AND Chicago, they could also take advantage of the burgeoning "Chicago Soul Sound", as with his contacts in the Chicago Soul Scene, Williams could also bring his discovered talented production people and singing artists into Mercury's Chicago operation.  I think that Williams' deal with Mercury was one of the main factors that led to Mercury starting up their new Blue Rock record label, to specialise in Chicago and Detroit Soul artists' releases. These would be supplemented recordings of New York-based artists produced in New York, by Robert Bateman, simulating "The Detroit Sound" using Motown's former Jobete Music New York Office's "House Band", they used to "simulate" Detroit's Motown Sound, on their production of demo records to be used by Motown's Detroit singers as guides to sing songs written by Jobete New York.  That band, conducted by pianist Richard Tee (Ten Ryk), used some of New York's best Soul session players, including Gordon Edwards -bassist, Eric Gale - guitarist, Cornell Dupree - guitarist, Bernard "Pretty" Purdie on Drums, Etc.) all of whom had been taught "how to play in the Motown style".  Bateman used them on most of his New York productions, working out of Mercury's New York office.  He also had used them in recording many (if not most) of his non-Mercury mid and late '60s New York productions.

So, it seems that Lebaron Taylor went to Andre Williams to get his group a contract with a national label. I bet they recorded it at United Sound. Or, maybe Golden World, and that's where the connection to Myto Music came in. Surely their 2nd record with the Myto published song, was recorded at Golden World. Andre Williams had opened up his new sub-office in Mercury's Chicago main headquarters, and probably already still had a small office in Detroit. He needed to scrape up a Detroit unit of regular free-lance production people. LeBaron Taylor came with The Chalfontes. Williams recruited Sonny Sanders [[from Golden World), and free-lance writer/producer, free-lancer Dave Hamilton who he may have also met at Golden World, or just approached him as an unattached free-lancer, like he did with Don Juan Mancha. I seem to faintly remember that Mancha worked on another Mercury production, or 2 with Williams (maybe on a Herman Griffin record?).  Many of the Detroit and Chicago productions during Williams' time at Mercury were placed on Blue Rock, which was started to be a label dedicated to showcase the burgeoning Chicago and Detroit Soul Sounds". But several were also placed on Philips(Bobby Hutton, Richard Parker), and some even made it to the parent, Mercury label, such as ex-Motowner, Herman Griffin. But some were also placed on Smash(Luther Ingram, Daylighters, Trends, Naturals, Constellations,Tears) and even Fontana(James Phelps, Diane Cunningham), and even their Jazz label, Limelight Records(Otis Leavill).

By 1967, both Bateman in New York, and Williams in Chicago, were gone from Mercury. Giving more credence to the theory that Bateman and Williams came in on a package deal. Their being dumped [[or having their contracts not renewed) was no surprise, as NONE of their projects produced national, or even regional hits, and only relatively few charted at all. That was despite picking up such well-respected artists as Johnnie Mae Matthews, Sir Mack Rice, Otis Leavill, Luther Ingram, and Timothy Wilson.

Edited October 4 by Robbk

[The Yank]

Here's another Andre WIlliams/ Myto Music/ Detroit recording that ended up with a Mercury label-

 

[The Yank]

From Record World (Feb. 16, 1965) - 

 

[Robbk]

3 hours ago, The Yank said:

From Record World (Feb. 16, 1965) - 

 

"Baby Boy" was written by Wingate/Golden World Records' Myto Music writers, The Hamilton Brothers, specifically for Golden World's Juanita Williams' Golden World release, but, yes, I suppose Janeen Henry's version was recorded in Detroit, given that ex-Motown arranger, Dale Warren (Raynoma Gordy's cousin) was still residing in Detroit then and arranging records there for several Detroit labels.  So, I'm also guessing that like Jimmy Holland, she was one of Andre Williams' Detroit artist signings to Mercury, rather than one of his Chicago artist signings.

Thanks for the Andre Williams article, Yank.  I knew I had read one years ago in either Billboard or Record World (or both). 

I want to check also when Mercury signed their deal with Robert Bateman in their articles about him in those 2 trades.  I know I read at least one, if not in both.  I remember his photograph and the fluff about him being an ex-Motowner.  So, I googled both "Billboard article and Record World article about Robert Bateman being hired/or contracted by Mercury Records",  and came up with nothing.  Having been a child of the 1940s and '50s, I'm TERRIBLE at the "new" technology, like computers, smartphones, and The Internet.  I don't know how to do a proper Internet search.  

You seem to be an expert on that.  Can you do that search for us?  Then we can find out whether or not Mercury's signing of the 2 producers to their two major regional offices was likely to have been related, to jump on the new successful trends of Detroit and Chicago Soul music.

 

Edited October 3 by Robbk

[Blackpoolsoul]

1 hour ago, Robbk said:

"Baby Boy" was written by Wingate/Golden World Records' Myto Music writers, The Hamilton Brothers, specifically for Golden World's Juanita Williams' Golden World release, but, yes, I suppose Janeen Henry's version was recorded in Detroit, given that ex-Motown arranger, Dale Warren (Raynoma Gordy's cousin) was still residing in Detroit then and arranging records there for several Detroit labels.  So, I'm also guessing that like Jimmy Holland, she was one of Andre Williams' Detroit artist signings to Mercury, rather than one of his Chicago artist signings.

Thanks for the Andre Williams article, Yank.  I knew I had read one years ago in either Billboard or Record World (or both). 

I want to check also when Mercury signed their deal with Robert Bateman in their articles about him in those 2 trades.  I know I read at least one, if not in both.  I remember his photograph and the fluff about him being an ex-Motowner.  So, I googled both "Billboard article and Record World article about Robert Bateman being hired/or contracted by Mercury Records",  and came up with nothing.  Having been a child of the 1940s and '50s, I'm TERRIBLE at the "new" technology, like computers, smartphones, and The Internet.  I don't know how to do a proper Internet search.  

You seem to be an expert on that.  Can you do that search for us?  Then we can find out whether or not Mercury's signing of the 2 producers to their two major regional offices was likely to have been related, to jump on the new successful trends of Detroit and Chicago Soul music.

 

Neli Ruston spoke to Robert and I found this (which may give a clue as to an approx date) 

"Luther Ingram would of course become an icon on the Northern soul club circuit with yet another Wylie penned song that would reach classic status, Luther Ingram — “If It’s All The Same To You Babe b/w Exus Trek” — HIB 698 which saw both the vocal and the instrumental sides grace the turntables. Penned by Popcorn and recorded at Golden World Studios in a moonlighting session by The Funk Brothers, Neil Rushton, after a conversation with Robert Bateman says he (Bateman), took the tapes to Mercury studios in New York and overdubbed strings to create the 'orchestra' feel. Bateman says he sold about 5,000 copies, before achieving a distribution deal from Jerry Wexler at Atlantic Records. He was trying to capture a similar sound to The Four Tops and in doing so, produced a stone classic of the Northern Soul scene with a record that still fills dance-floors even today."

[Robbk]

4 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Neli Ruston spoke to Robert and I found this (which may give a clue as to an approx date) 

"Luther Ingram would of course become an icon on the Northern soul club circuit with yet another Wylie penned song that would reach classic status, Luther Ingram — “If It’s All The Same To You Babe b/w Exus Trek” — HIB 698 which saw both the vocal and the instrumental sides grace the turntables. Penned by Popcorn and recorded at Golden World Studios in a moonlighting session by The Funk Brothers, Neil Rushton, after a conversation with Robert Bateman says he (Bateman), took the tapes to Mercury studios in New York and overdubbed strings to create the 'orchestra' feel. Bateman says he sold about 5,000 copies, before achieving a distribution deal from Jerry Wexler at Atlantic Records. He was trying to capture a similar sound to The Four Tops and in doing so, produced a stone classic of the Northern Soul scene with a record that still fills dance-floors even today."

And Bateman recorded the follow-up using Richard Tee's band for Mercury (Smash) in New York, a few months after.  But, as he took the tapes to Mercury to overdub the strings, he most likely already had his production deal with them, or he'd have overdubbed the strings in Detroit.  So this tells us only THAT, and not when he started with them.  He was an independent producer whose contract with Mercury was NOT likely to have been exclusive.  He'd still have been allowed to work on his own projects in his "off time".  He DID bring Ingram into the Mercury fold with the follow-up, in any case, so Mercury would have been satisfied.  The HIB record was released in 1966.  Andre Williams was signed by Mercury in February, 1965.  We know that Bateman was already working with Mercury in 1966, but not when he started with them.  I still need to find the Billboard or Record World article on his signing.  It WAS on The Internet when I last read it.  But I haven't been able to find it now.

[Roburt]

Robb, I don't think what you read can have been in Billboard. All I could find relating to Robert Bateman in Billboard (apart from credits for 45 releases he gets noted on) were these ... 

An early Mercury related 45 that Bateman / Moseley were responsible for was the November 65 release on Phillips -- The La Vettes – Practice What You've Been Preachin' (# 40338). He had time at Double-L, Capitol & End before going with Mercury ... at End he also worked with Moseley (at the time Moseley was penning songs in conjunction with Sid Barnes & JJ Jackson) ...  

[Robbk]

16 minutes ago, Roburt said:

Robb, I don't think what you read can have been in Billboard. All I could find relating to Robert Bateman in Billboard (apart from credits for 45 releases he gets noted on) were these ... 

An early Mercury related 45 that Bateman / Moseley were responsible for was the November 65 release on Phillips -- The La Vettes – Practice What You've Been Preachin' (# 40338). He had time at Double-L, Capitol & End before going with Mercury ... at End he also worked with Moseley (at the time Moseley was penning songs in conjunction with Sid Barnes & JJ Jackson) ...  

The LaVettes release occurred very late 1965; whereas, Andre Williams' stint with Mercury was from February of that year.  This article states that that record was an EARLY Mercury project for Bateman.  So it's not very likely that Bateman was signed to Mercury anytime near February, and most of his Mercury time was in late 1965 and early 1966 (a much shorter run than Williams', and only partly overlapping).  So, it seems likely that the 2 producers didn't come to Mercury as a package, or as part of a single Mercury plan to "modernize" their Soul Music style.  Still, I'd like to find that article I read to find out when Bateman signed with Mercury.  It must have been in Record World.  But, I would SWEAR that I read it in Billboard, and I can see where I was and the logos on The magazine's front page.  I'm SURE I read it in Billboard.

[The Yank]

I did find an article in Billboard about "Bob" Bateman from January, 1966 but it also included a lot of info about other producers. However, this article from Record World (November 27, 1965) shows things were in progress earlier- 

[Robbk]

3 hours ago, The Yank said:

I did find an article in Billboard about "Bob" Bateman from January, 1966 but it also included a lot of info about other producers. However, this article from Record World (November 27, 1965) shows things were in progress earlier- 

Thanks!  That's not the article I read that also contained a photo of Bateman, but the timing is right on the mark, and proves that Mercury had an across-the-board policy of "modernizing" their production capabilities in The Soul Music genre.  And, his operation would move into their New York offices.  The 2 months earlier date, of Sept. 1965, reveals that the significantly earlier signing of Andre Williams (in Feb. '65) probably had nothing to do with Bateman's hiring, other than being part of Mercury's overall plan.  So, Williams and Bateman weren't a packaged team.  But, interestingly enough the 2 of them had teamed up to work for 20th Century Fox on Mary Wells' first Fox recording sessions in Detroit in early '65, on her first several singles releases and her first Fox LP.  That was part ofg 20th Century Fox's plan to ghet into Soul Music, also spawned by Motown's erxplosion of success in late '64 and early '65.

[Roburt]

I got in touch with Sidney Barnes as he co-wrote songs in 1965 (along with JJ Jackson) with Ronald Moseley,  who at the time was working with Robert Bateman for End Records. He recalls a lot about Ronald Moseley & Robert Bateman from those times -- he says he'll get back to me with the info a bit later on.

I'll pass along whatever he still recalls.

[Tricky]

Holly Maxwell,Dont say you love me until you do,on Star is Myto music.

Deffo sounds like it could have been a Golden World recording as well.

[Robbk]

2 hours ago, Tricky said:

Holly Maxwell,Dont say you love me until you do,on Star is Myto music.

Deffo sounds like it could have been a Golden World recording as well.

Holly Maxwell was from Chicago, and lived there at that time.  Star was a Chicago label.  "Don't Say You Love Me Until You Do" was published by Myto Music because JoAnne Jackson (Bratton), Ed Wingate's partner and future wife, wrote it.  It sounded too "tinny" to me to have been recorded at Golden World.  But, I do remember that she had been taken by one of her Chicago producers to Detroit, to record some of here songs.  So, maybe this was one of those.  It sounds too simple, too much bass, and too little of much else.  I don't hear any Detroit musicians on it, like we always do on Golden World recordings.  The beat and melody sound like it because a Detroit writer wrote it.

[The Yank]

I agree "Don't Say.." isn't top shelf Detroit but... if you listen to Holly's cringe inducing version of "Blueberry Hill" on the flip side, it sounds like she's singing over the San Remo String's version of the song- 

 

[Tricky]

I know Chicago label and artist.Just sounded Detroit to these tone deaf ears!

Sylvia Thomas on Bamboo,so will I is also Myto but publishing only.

Another question. What Arctic recordings were definitively Detroit/Golden World recordings?

[Robbk]

4 hours ago, Tricky said:

I know Chicago label and artist.Just sounded Detroit to these tone deaf ears!

Sylvia Thomas on Bamboo,so will I is also Myto but publishing only.

Another question. What Arctic recordings were definitively Detroit/Golden World recordings?

So, are you saying that the background tracks (or some portion of them) from Andre Williams' Ric Tic production of Laura Lee's "So Will I" were used on Sylvia Thomas' Bamboo 45?  That could have been Chicago's Gene Chandler leasing the track from Chicago/Detroit producer Andre Williams, or the tracks were "stolen" without Williams' knowledge, just like Dave Hamilton's Topper tracks suspiciously ended up on Maurice Jackson's Maurci Records' Monique 45s, unbeknownced to him until someone played them for him.  But I know that Chicago writer/producer Karl Tarlton used several Detroit background tracks on his artists' productions, such as those by Lee Charles, and Garland Green.  Deke Atkins did that as well with his Duo productions (Sheryl Swope, The Profiles).  He was rumoured to have taken Maxwell to Detroit to record some cuts there.  But maybe he just leased some tracks from Golden World, or from Andre Williams in Chicago.

I suppose it could be that the reason I didn't think Holly Maxwell's tracks sounded fully Detroitish (and "tinny", with too much bass and too little else) is because they weren't the full mix of background tracks, and were mainly bass line and only one guitar and no strings.  Listening again to Holly's "Don't Say You Love Me", I recognise it as absolutely the same rhythm track as the backgrounds of some Golden World production on a record I have with a different title.  But the horns are different and I hear no strings.  So, I think that Deke Atkins either took Holly to Golden World to record her vocals there, and paid for them to provide the background tracks.  But rather than record new tracks, they used already recorded tracks.  OR, Atkins simply leased the tracks from Golden World, because they were leased for less than recording new tracks, because they wouldn't need to rent studio time or pay musicians.  OR, Williams, ended up with unused alternate or unfinished mix tapes of some productions he worked on, and leased them to Atkins in Chicago.  That was 1965, and maybe Atkins' first record production.  It's a good bet that he didn't have enough money to pay for an elaborate production AND also pay for pressing enough records for decent distribution.  So he went the bargain route, using existing instrumental tracks.

Yes, I've heard that The Volcanoes and a few other Philly groups were taken to Golden World to record, to get "The Detroit Sound".  People said they sounded "like Motown".  I could believe that they recorded some tracks they used on their records there, but I didn't think they sounded much like Motown productions.

Edited October 7 by Robbk

[Roburt]

I can't tell you which Arctic tracks were cut in Detroit but I do know when Gamble & Huff were over there (@ Motown and GW). Gene Dozier had quit Philly to try his luck in Detroit after chatting with Mickey Stevenson backstage @ the Uptown. One of the last things he did in Philly was start co-writing a song with Norman Johnson. It wasn't finished when he headed out of town. Both guys did further work on the song -- Norman's version became Eddie Carlton's "It Will Be Done (June 65). Gene laid down a demo version of his effort which was released as "Swoop Down On You" and credited to Lorenzo Manley (a 1966 Original Sound 45 release -- the uva side of the 45 being cut by Lorenzo himself in LA after Gene had moved there).

So, Gene headed off to Detroit & went to Motown's studio. He didn't really get the welcome he was expecting but did get 'taken on'. He told me he sang background on Stevie Wonder's "Uptight" sometime in Fall 65. He co-wrote some songs with other Motown writers, these included one release a while later on the Marvelettes ("Too Many Tears, Too Many Times"). But he told the Motown team his name was "Billy Jackson" aka Billy the KId (coz he was still young). Gamble & Huff came into town and hung out at Motown. The guys there said ... Oh, you'll know Billy Jackson who's working here now ... puzzled (coz they knew the real Billy was still back in Philly), they asked to see the guy ... that's not Billy Jackson, that guy's name is Gene Dozier they told the Motowners. So Gene / Billy was asked to move on in late 65 / early 66. He moved across town to work with Golden World / Solid Hit. There he was responsible for Pat Lewis's "Let's Go Together" (March 66 release),  Theresa Lindsey's "Daddy-O" (May 66 release) & Pat Lewis's "No Baby No" (a later Solid Hit released cut, which had obviously been cut a while before it's release) + other tracks.

But Gene soon decided to move on again, this time to LA. There he hooked up with a new musical partner (Santifer) & cut the Blossoms "Let Your Love Shine on Me" (October 66 release) & tracks by the Groovettes ("Think It Over Baby", etc) put out on Reness.

BACK TO THE QUESTION THOUGH ... Gamble & Huff exposed Gene Dozier's deception at Motown some time in latish 65 / early 66. So Gamble & Huff were over in Detroit to cut tracks during that time period ... so I guess those tracks would have been released on or after Arctic # 115. I guess the likes of Robb would hear the work of Detroit musicians if he listened to the right Arctic tracks from that period (late 65 through to mid 66 releases I guess). No doubt the guys that check out the Motown track recording online database can easily ID when "Uptight" was laid down and when "Too Many Tears, Too Many Times" was also laid down to get a more accurate date for Gene's work at Motown.

Edited October 7 by Roburt

[Blackpoolsoul]

10 hours ago, Roburt said:

I can't tell you which Arctic tracks were cut in Detroit but I do know when Gamble & Huff were over there (@ Motown and GW). Gene Dozier had quit Philly to try his luck in Detroit after chatting with Mickey Stevenson backstage @ the Uptown. One of the last things he did in Philly was start co-writing a song with Norman Johnson. It wasn't finished when he headed out of town. Both guys did further work on the song -- Norman's version became Eddie Carlton's "It Will Be Done (June 65). Gene laid down a demo version of his effort which was released as "Swoop Down On You" and credited to Lorenzo Manley (a 1966 Original Sound 45 release -- the uva side of the 45 being cut by Lorenzo himself in LA after Gene had moved there).

So, Gene headed off to Detroit & went to Motown's studio. He didn't really get the welcome he was expecting but did get 'taken on'. He told me he sang background on Stevie Wonder's "Uptight" sometime in Fall 65. He co-wrote some songs with other Motown writers, these included one release a while later on the Marvelettes ("Too Many Tears, Too Many Times"). But he told the Motown team his name was "Billy Jackson" aka Billy the KId (coz he was still young). Gamble & Huff came into town and hung out at Motown. The guys there said ... Oh, you'll know Billy Jackson who's working here now ... puzzled (coz they knew the real Billy was still back in Philly), they asked to see the guy ... that's not Billy Jackson, that guy's name is Gene Dozier they told the Motowners. So Gene / Billy was asked to move on in late 65 / early 66. He moved across town to work with Golden World / Solid Hit. There he was responsible for Pat Lewis's "Let's Go Together" (March 66 release),  Theresa Lindsey's "Daddy-O" (May 66 release) & Pat Lewis's "No Baby No" (a later Solid Hit released cut, which had obviously been cut a while before it's release) + other tracks.

But Gene soon decided to move on again, this time to LA. There he hooked up with a new musical partner (Santifer) & cut the Blossoms "Let Your Love Shine on Me" (October 66 release) & tracks by the Groovettes ("Think It Over Baby", etc) put out on Reness.

BACK TO THE QUESTION THOUGH ... Gamble & Huff exposed Gene Dozier's deception at Motown some time in latish 65 / early 66. So Gamble & Huff were over in Detroit to cut tracks during that time period ... so I guess those tracks would have been released on or after Arctic # 115. I guess the likes of Robb would hear the work of Detroit musicians if he listened to the right Arctic tracks from that period (late 65 through to mid 66 releases I guess). No doubt the guys that check out the Motown track recording online database can easily ID when "Uptight" was laid down and when "Too Many Tears, Too Many Times" was also laid down to get a more accurate date for Gene's work at Motown.

Kenny never mentioned "cutting" tunes in Detroit in an interview in February this year. 

"You’re universally regarded as one of the architects of the Philly Sound. How did that coalesce?

Motown was the inspiration for Huff and me; we give credit to Motown for being able to assemble a great group of people who worked together. Berry Gordy, who was a successful songwriter-producer in his own right, created opportunities for some of the world’s greatest songwriters and producers, not to mention the superstar artists on his label. On my first airplane ride, Huff and I went to Detroit to explore working with Motown. It was impressive, and I still have the greatest admiration for Berry Gordy. But at the end of the day, Huff and I decided to return to Philly and set up our own record company."

Perhaps they returned ?

 

[Kenb]

3 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Huff and I decided to return to Philly and set up our own record company."

Perhaps they returned ?

they wouldn't have returned ( nor do i think they ever 'cut' anything in Detroit/Motown). Too busy with P.I. , Shubert Theater, Sigma and The Great Philadelphia Trading Co Ltd (conglomerate)

Edited October 8 by Kenb

[Blackpoolsoul]

56 minutes ago, Kenb said:

they wouldn't have returned ( nor do i think they ever 'cut' anything in Detroit/Motown). Too busy with P.I. , Shubert Theater, Sigma and The Great Philadelphia Trading Co Ltd (conglomerate)

I think they did manage to "get" some recordings from somewhere in Detroit and use them later in Philly from what I have read and been told by Elsie (Debonaires).

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 06/10/2024 at 23:27, Robbk said:

Holly Maxwell was from Chicago, and lived there at that time.  Star was a Chicago label.  "Don't Say You Love Me Until You Do" was published by Myto Music because JoAnne Jackson (Bratton), Ed Wingate's partner and future wife, wrote it.  It sounded too "tinny" to me to have been recorded at Golden World.  But, I do remember that she had been taken by one of her Chicago producers to Detroit, to record some of here songs.  So, maybe this was one of those.  It sounds too simple, too much bass, and too little of much else.  I don't hear any Detroit musicians on it, like we always do on Golden World recordings.  The beat and melody sound like it because a Detroit writer wrote it.

Just had Elsie confirming it was the Debonaires who did the backing vocals @ Golden World

[Roburt]

Jumping back to the part of this thread that dealt with Gene Redd's work in the 1960's ..

ALSO earlier Tony & Tyrone's Atlantic 45 featuring "Please Operator" was mentioned ... I added this statement, which was supposition ... Jumping back to Tony & Tyrone, their "Please Operator" seems to have gained a LATE release (Nov 67) for the people involved. If it was actually cut in Detroit, I'd say it had 'sat around' for a while before Atlantic picked it up.

In similar fashion, A Musicor 45 was released in June 1968 -- the Toys "Sealed With A Kiss / I Got My Heart Set On You" (MU 1319). The B side song was co-written by Gene and he also arranged the track. But I'm sure he was long gone from Musicor by summer 68. So this track must have laid around for some time before it escaped on this 45. I don't believe with Musicor singles that it's possible to date a track from the info included on the 45's label. 

Edited October 9 by Roburt

[Roburt]

Lots of great info on this thread about many folk involved with GW.

One of those being Sonny Sanders. Sonny must have been quite switched on (business wise) as he was already getting into running labels as early as 1962 (when he was only 23 years old). Along with Robert Bateman, he had formed the Satintones in Detroit in 1957 (when 18 years old) and they were signed to Motown. But he soon moved on from Motown & with Bateman started SonBert Records (part of Correc-Tone)  in 62. He was also working with the likes of Wilson Pickett, James Velvet, Gino Washington (all for Correc-Tone) and Bobby Lee Watson (Maureen). From there, he was onto working at GW and then off to Chicago.

Not a bad start to a long & successful music career.