Golden World: Locals & Outsiders Involved

[Blackpoolsoul]

4 minutes ago, Roburt said:

Chess did well with their cover version of "Man Loves Two" ... (by Little Milton). So a few years later, they returned the favour & signed Chuck to a deal. 

He had a 45 out that he hoped would be a breakthrough release for him. Unfortunately, Chess didn't promote it so his creer didn't take off due to this single ... 

Now I know why he sang in the Ankara "Mob" joint in Pittsburg. He even admits himself to the "Mob Boss" connection in his book 

[Roburt]

9 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Now I know why he sang in the Ankara "Mob" joint in Pittsburg. He even admits himself to the "Mob Boss" connection in his book 

 

Yes, Chuck is quite open that his Italian heritage helped him get some jobs in Pittsburgh, Atlantic City, Vegas and the like. Anyone that's interested in his story can buy the new edition of SOUL UP NORTH mag ... 

Edited September 17 by Roburt

[Roburt]

Chuck Corby's civic award for lasting 65 years in the music biz (he's still performing today) ...

[Robbk]

On 16/09/2024 at 21:51, Blackpoolsoul said:

This article from George Kerr Rob

Thanks for uploading this article, BlackpoolSoul.  Now I know what all readers of Sidney Barnes' book knew, - that Maltese Records was totally owned by Bud Granoff and Irv Biegel, without ownership participation by Ed Wingate or Golden World.  So, Biegel, working part time in Detroit, had his A&R man, and chief producer, George Kerr, record background tracks at Golden World Recording Studio, had them produce his masters, and ordered pressing of Maltese's commercial issues at Columbia Midwest (Terre Haute, Indiana), ostensibly through Golden World's account there. Of course, Biegel used Maltese's own funds to pay for that, and Granoff probably kept the masters when Maltese shut down.  What I also didn't know before this revelation, was that George Kerr worked on his Maltese productions in Detroit, including writing some songs, and recording some vocal and some music tracks there.  I had known that several (if not most of their music tracks) had been recorded in Detroit, but I thought they had been produced by Wingate's producers using Motown musicians and arrangers.  I didn't know that Kerr had stayed in Detroit after leaving Motown, and migrated from Motown to Wingate's operations along with George Clinton and his crew, Sidney Barnes, Gene Redd, Jr., and, it seems, Irv Biegel.  I had thought Kerr had returned to New York (where he had never left, but bounced between the 2 cities), and just produced songwriting, demos, and vocal recording on their NY artists there, using Richard T.  and his band, who stayed in New York, not being brought to Detroit by Berry Gordy in late 1964, after the closing down of Jobete Music, NewYork, as George Clinton, and Kerr and Barnes were.  Now I know that George Kerr worked in Detroit for Maltese, as "Mr. Lucky", and although Irv Biegel acted as a business manager for Golden World/Ric-Tic, while also running Maltese, in a similar manner, using Wingate's operational channels and connections, Maltese was NOT a subsidiary of Wingate's Golden World.  But, clearly, it was related enough to consider it a member of  Golden World's "family of labels.  However, this doesn't effect my belief that Gene Redd Jr.'s Stephanye Records was a partly-owned subsidiary of Golden World, (as I have read that in a few places) Unfortunately, I can't remember the sources for that.  However, I'm sure that Redd kept the masters for their 3 releases.

I'd like to know where Irv Biegel was stationed when working for Motown, and exactly what he was doing.  My guess was that he was hired, originally, by Miss Ray, to manage the business end of Jobete Music, New York office, and operated solely out of New York. The article about him made it sound like he had been working for Motown in Detroit after Jobete NY was shut down. I'd be shocked to find out that that had happened.  I'd have guessed he'd not have been kept on, and brought to Detroit by Berry Gordy, after the latter shut down the New York operations, like he brought George Clinton and The Parliaments, and George Kerr and Sidney Barnes. 

I assume that Bud Granoff hired and partnered up with Biegel to operate his new (Maltese) record company, taking advantage of the newly-available talent that had operated Motown's New York operation.  And When Clinton, Kerr and Barnes decided to leave Motown in Detroit, they were either approached by Wingate, or went to see about hooking up with his rising Detroit label, which was starting to rival Motown.  Upon reaching production agreements with Wingate, they decided to try to bring in their Motown New York colleague, Gene Redd, Jr., and Kerr, now alone, after Barnes decided to team up with Clinton, convinced Biegel to get his partner Granoff to make him Chief producer and A&R man of their new label, and to team up with Wingate, to continue to take advantage of the burgeoning popularity of The "Detroit Sound", using Detroit's musicians and arrangers and songwriters (most of whom had recently worked (or still were working) for Motown Records. 

Edited September 18 by Robbk

[Roburt]

Chuck Corby's various versions of his "Man Loves Two" 45 + an ad for the single's release ... 

THEN  ... a recent pic of Chuck performing ... 

[Roburt]

Chuck was quite photogenic back in the day ...

so he got a few ad bookings for products ... 

[Roburt]

Chuck Corby's 45 on a local radio chart ...

& Little Milton's cover version which charted nationally ...

 

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 17/09/2024 at 23:40, Robbk said:

Thanks for uploading this article, BlackpoolSoul.  Now I know what all readers of Sidney Barnes' book knew, - that Maltese Records was totally owned by Bud Granoff and Irv Biegel, without ownership participation by Ed Wingate or Golden World.  So, Biegel, working part time in Detroit, had his A&R man, and chief producer, George Kerr, record background tracks at Golden World Recording Studio, had them produce his masters, and ordered pressing of Maltese's commercial issues at Columbia Midwest (Terre Haute, Indiana), ostensibly through Golden World's account there. Of course, Biegel used Maltese's own funds to pay for that, and Granoff probably kept the masters when Maltese shut down.  What I also didn't know before this revelation, was that George Kerr worked on his Maltese productions in Detroit, including writing some songs, and recording some vocal and some music tracks there.  I had known that several (if not most of their music tracks) had been recorded in Detroit, but I thought they had been produced by Wingate's producers using Motown musicians and arrangers.  I didn't know that Kerr had stayed in Detroit after leaving Motown, and migrated from Motown to Wingate's operations along with George Clinton and his crew, Sidney Barnes, Gene Redd, Jr., and, it seems, Irv Biegel.  I had thought Kerr had returned to New York (where he had never left, but bounced between the 2 cities), and just produced songwriting, demos, and vocal recording on their NY artists there, using Richard T.  and his band, who stayed in New York, not being brought to Detroit by Berry Gordy in late 1964, after the closing down of Jobete Music, NewYork, as George Clinton, and Kerr and Barnes were.  Now I know that George Kerr worked in Detroit for Maltese, as "Mr. Lucky", and although Irv Biegel acted as a business manager for Golden World/Ric-Tic, while also running Maltese, in a similar manner, using Wingate's operational channels and connections, Maltese was NOT a subsidiary of Wingate's Golden World.  But, clearly, it was related enough to consider it a member of  Golden World's "family of labels.  However, this doesn't effect my belief that Gene Redd Jr.'s Stephanye Records was a partly-owned subsidiary of Golden World, (as I have read that in a few places) Unfortunately, I can't remember the sources for that.  However, I'm sure that Redd kept the masters for their 3 releases.

I'd like to know where Irv Biegel was stationed when working for Motown, and exactly what he was doing.  My guess was that he was hired, originally, by Miss Ray, to manage the business end of Jobete Music, New York office, and operated solely out of New York. The article about him made it sound like he had been working for Motown in Detroit after Jobete NY was shut down. I'd be shocked to find out that that had happened.  I'd have guessed he'd not have been kept on, and brought to Detroit by Berry Gordy, after the latter shut down the New York operations, like he brought George Clinton and The Parliaments, and George Kerr and Sidney Barnes. 

I assume that Bud Granoff hired and partnered up with Biegel to operate his new (Maltese) record company, taking advantage of the newly-available talent that had operated Motown's New York operation.  And When Clinton, Kerr and Barnes decided to leave Motown in Detroit, they were either approached by Wingate, or went to see about hooking up with his rising Detroit label, which was starting to rival Motown.  Upon reaching production agreements with Wingate, they decided to try to bring in their Motown New York colleague, Gene Redd, Jr., and Kerr, now alone, after Barnes decided to team up with Clinton, convinced Biegel to get his partner Granoff to make him Chief producer and A&R man of their new label, and to team up with Wingate, to continue to take advantage of the burgeoning popularity of The "Detroit Sound", using Detroit's musicians and arrangers and songwriters (most of whom had recently worked (or still were working) for Motown Records. 

1962, Barney Ales hired Irv Biegel and Phil Jones. Biegal was assigned him to singles sales and promotion with Jones doing the same with albums.

[Simon T]

7 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

1962, Barney Ales hired Irv Biegel and Phil Jones. Biegal was assigned him to singles sales and promotion with Jones doing the same with albums.

https://www.history-of-rock.com/motown_recordstwo.htm

[Robbk]

2 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

1962, Barney Ales hired Irv Biegel and Phil Jones. Biegal was assigned him to singles sales and promotion with Jones doing the same with albums.

So, was Biegel still headquartered in New York, and travelled nationally?  Or did he move to Detroit?  Or was he born and raised in Detroit, and working in Detroit before Barney hired him?  If it was the latter case, then Biegel must have known about Clinton, Barnes, and George Kerr leaving Motown and going to Wingate, and decided there was an opportunity for him with Wingate, and either HE, or Kerr (more likely Kerr) got Granoff involved to form a new label (for Kerr to run a record label as an outlet to use his songwriting and record production skills to continue earning a living), as his former partner, Barnes had decided to team up with Clinton.  

[The Yank]

Not sure if Irv was born in Detroit but, this article makes it seems like he had been working in the area for years- 

 

[Robbk]

3 hours ago, The Yank said:

Not sure if Irv was born in Detroit but, this article makes it seems like he had been working in the area for years- 

 

Thanks Yank,

So it appears that George Kerr met Biegel while both were at Motown in Detroit, and when Barnes and Kerr decided to leave Motown, and Barnes decided to team up with Clinton, and approached Wingate (probably with the help of Biegel (who also left Motown), Kerr needed an outlet for his talents.  So, maybe he asked Biegel to find a financier to back a new record company that Kerr could run the day-to-day record producing operations.  So, Biegel found a New York financier, so that the new label could have operations both in New York and Detroit (so Kerr could still spend time where his family and friends were, and still produce in Detroit as well, to take advantage of "The Motown Sound").  Biegel probably found Granoff through his connections with New York Area national distributors.  My bguess is that Kerr kept his house in New Jersey, and just rented a small apartment in Detroit, because he had no guarantees that he'd be with Motown a long time.  As was born out when he found out that Gordy wanted him as a songwriter, but didn't want to pay him to be a producer.  Clinton was in that same situation.  Biegel had a similar situation with Motown, having to face a ceiling, blocking him from moving higher up.  So he left to get a more powerful job and more money with Wingate, and also had a chance to not only handle the business end of a new record label, but also participate in its profits as a junior partner.  The interesting thing is that he could do that benefitting from using Motown's musicians, and what he had learned from the inside, about the way of operating that brought success to Gordy's operation (so he thought).  But, his tenure with Wingate wasn't very long, and Maltese Records had very little success, if any.  I don't remember seeing that ANY of their releases charted, even on the R&B charts.  I don't recall seeing any Maltese records on The West Coast.  I don't think I saw any in Chicago record shops.  I think I found most of mine in Detroit bargain bins and thrift shops.  Maybe some made the Woolworth sales (even in Chicago).

Yank.  Do you remember seeing any Maltese records in Chicagoland?

[The Yank]

I have never come across Maltese Records in Chicago but I have found  a few Stephanye 45's (Shirley J. Scott and the Prophets) . 

[Robbk]

5 minutes ago, The Yank said:

I have never come across Maltese Records in Chicago but I have found  a few Stephanye 45's (Shirley J. Scott and the Prophets) . 

Yes, I found all 3 of the Stephanye 45s in The Chicago Area.  They got national distribution through Wingate's distribution channels. As I stated before, I've read in several places that Stephanye was not only distributed by Golden World, but was a partnership, half-owned subsidiary of Golden World.  I think that the reason they had only the 3 releases was because of the early falling out between Wingate and Gene Redd.  I think Maltese Records only got regional distribution in The Northeast, and probably also in Detroit/Southeastern Michigan and Toledo/Northwest Ohio.

[Roburt]

So it seems BG was (partially) responsible for a lot of talent (both NY & Detroit based) ending up with Wingate / Golden World / Ric Tic. Then, when the 'new' outfit had enjoyed a few hits he got upset (maybe too strong a word) and bought them out. Strange goings on indeed.

I think Gene Redd had lots of 'street smarts' even when based in NY, before starting to work in Detroit. Sidney Barnes worked a lot with him in NY but by the time he was in Detroit, he chose not to collaborate with Redd (though he had a lot of appreciation for him & his work).    

[Roburt]

Lots of other 'outside artists' cut @ Golden World. One of those being Rufus Wonder & the Additions.

The Additions (aka the Editions) were teamed with Rufus for the session that resulted in their Lando 45. They originally undertook the cutting of Rufus's songs at United Sound (65) but that session didn't work out. So a few days later they went into Golden World studios and re-cut "Under The Moon" (info ascertained by Boba in an interview & by David Flynn).  

Is it known which Detroit studio the other Lando cuts were recorded in ?

Rufus stated that he & the Additions sang backing vocals on Carl Carlton's "I Love Only You" (for Lando). Edd Henry the song's writer also cut the song (for Lando sub label Nu-Sound). No idea if Rufus sang on that version as well. Don't think it's mentioned which studio either of those sessions were undertaken at. 

Edited September 24 by Roburt

[Roburt]

Prompted by another thread on here (the one on the UK London version of Darrell Banks' classic single), thought I'd add in this bit of info from Sidney Barnes ... (it links to comments from him that I quoted earlier concerning CAN'T SHAKE IT LOOSE by PAT LEWIS) ..

Darrell Banks 45's B side is yet another example of 'strange goings on' with regard to publishing credits on Detroit 45's ..... BMI has the writers credits for OUR LOVE IS IN THE POCKET down as being Clinton / McCoy / Joanne Bratton -- the 45's label having the 3rd name as Joanne Jackson).

In fact, the song was penned by George Clinton & Sidney Barnes ... not a happy situation for Sidney who states that ...  I will forever be pissed about it.

 

Edited September 25 by Roburt

[Roburt]

A few Golden World-ers are featured here. What GW cuts mean to us & what UK NS fans mean to them  ....

 

 

 

[Roburt]

My main aim when starting up this thread was to discover how many 'out of towners' cut in the Golden World studio. I knew from my contact with Chuck Corby that his group (from Pittsburgh) cut there. But, ascertaining just which local & national 'outside acts (i.e. non GW / Ric Tic / Wingate) cut in the studio isn't an easy task.

Obviously the likes of United Sound & Rainbow / Tera Shirma undertook similar work In Detroit for many acts (I believe some GW tracks were even cut @ Tera Shirma & Chuck Jackson cut there too).

But which of the local 'little label' acts used GW studios -- I'm thinking of acts who had releases on the likes of Thelma, Velgo, Soulhawk, M-S, Groove City, Groovesville, Revilot, Impact, Drew, D Town, Ashford, Atac, Big Hit, Boo, Carla, De-To, Diamond Jim, Dottys, Inferno, La Beat, Kool Kat, Mahs, Sepia, etc.

Are such facts known ?

Edited September 27 by Roburt

[Robbk]

16 hours ago, Roburt said:

My main aim when starting up this thread was to discover how many 'out of towners' cut in the Golden World studio. I knew from my contact with Chuck Corby that his group (from Pittsburgh) cut there. But, ascertaining just which local & national 'outside acts (i.e. non GW / Ric Tic / Wingate) cut in the studio isn't an easy task.

Obviously the likes of United Sound & Rainbow / Tera Shirma undertook similar work In Detroit for many acts (I believe some GW tracks were even cut @ Tera Shirma & Chuck Jackson cut there too).

But which of the local 'little label' acts used GW studios -- I'm thinking of acts who had releases on the likes of Thelma, Velgo, Soulhawk, M-S, Groove City, Groovesville, Revilot, Impact, Drew, D Town, Ashford, Atac, Big Hit, Boo, Carla, De-To, Diamond Jim, Dottys, Inferno, La Beat, Kool Kat, Mahs, Sepia, etc.

Are such facts known ?

Velgo recorded at Sidra and Ernstrat/Terra Shirma, a lot of Don Davis' Thelma productions were recorded at United Sound. Mike Hanks' D-Town and MAH's recorded in his own Pig Pen, but he DID record a few of his latest recordings at Golden World, and even had Golden World distribute them.  Most of Don Davis' Groovesville, Groove City, and his and LeBaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound/Revilot labels recorded mainly at United Sound (Including The O'Jays).  Drew recorded at Sidra, Carla and a lot of Ollie McLaughlin's labels productions were recorded in Chicago, but some recorded in Detroit before 1965 were recorded at Motown's Snakepit, and later at Golden World ("Cool Jerk" being one).  Impact and Inferno recorded at Golden World, Kool Kat recorded at Golden World. Mike Terry recorded most of his projects at Golden World, some at Sidra.  Popcorn Wylie at several different studios, including United Sound, Golden World, Sidra and Terra Shirma.  A lot of Detroit Soul productions were recorded at United Sound Systems, by both small and large labels. 

There were several other smaller studios around the city:  Correc-Tone/Magic City, Pioneer Recording, Artie Fields Productions, Bumpshop/GM Recording, Master Recording, Mickay's Recording, Northwest Sound, Fortune Records, Diamond Recording, Detroit Sound, Continental Recording, Carrie/LaBeat Recording, Sound, Inc., Tri-Sound Recording, JVB Recording, Special Recordings, Sound Patterns, McCoy Recording Co., Jackpot Recording Co., Rainbow/Ernstrat Recording, Temple/TCB Recording, Blue Star Recording, Viney Recording Studio, Northwest Sound, Gold Soul Studios, Dotty's Recording Co., Golden Hit Productions, Tower Recording.

Many of these recording studios were owned by record producers, as you know from their Northern Soul records on labels of the same name.

 

Edited September 28 by Robbk

[Roburt]

I knew you'd have most of the answers Robb.

 

[Wilxy]

2 minutes ago, Roburt said:

I knew you'd have most of the answers Robb.

 

That is what you call Knowledge.....!

[Martin L]

The Thread is great riveting reading for those who have love of all things  Detroit 

Afternoon Wilxy 

 

Martin L x 

[Wilxy]

Whilst on topic of Detroit recording studios, I was going through several (orange) Volt records at home today, and  came across Pac 3 studios and a 1972 release by Hot Sauce-Bring it on home (and give it to me), (a nice crossover tune) which threw me once again as it wasn't a Don Davis Groovesville production as a lot of the said Volt 45's were, and whilst I appreciate that several of his productions were probably Detroit/Memphis hybrids, so therefore was wondering what the link was with this particular release and Pac 3 .......?

[Robbk]

9 minutes ago, Wilxy said:

Whilst on topic of Detroit recording studios, I was going through several (orange) Volt records at home today, and  came across Pac 3 studios and a 1972 release by Hot Sauce-Bring it on home (and give it to me), (a nice crossover tune) which threw me once again as it wasn't a Don Davis Groovesville production as a lot of the said Volt 45's were, and whilst I appreciate that several of his productions were probably Detroit/Memphis hybrids, so therefore was wondering what the link was with this particular release and Pac 3 .......?

Even without having Groovesville Productions credit printed on the record, the link to Detroit still could have been Don Davis.  But, Davis had bought United Sound in 1971, and THAT was his primary recording studio for his entire producing career, anyway.  So I doubt that Davis was heavily involved in that Hot Sauce production.  But, maybe Hot Sauce's producers wanted to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound" regardless of Davis' non-availability for whatever reasons (maybe Davis and his United Sound were solidly booked up, and so they checked out other Detroit studios, or were referred to PAC 3 by Davis, or someone else).  1972 was BEFORE Davis' falling out with Stax.  So, Davis COULD potentially have been involved in some way.  

[The Yank]

As far as I can tell, "Bring It On Home To Me' was released in March of 1972. I know the label lists Pac-3 as being in Detroit but this Billboard article has Pac 3 in Dearborn. Were there 2 Pac-3 Studions?

 

[Robbk]

2 minutes ago, The Yank said:

As far as I can tell, "Bring It On Home To Me' was released in March of 1972. I know the label lists Pac-3 as being in Detroit but this Billboard article has Pac 3 in Dearborn. Were there 2 Pac-3 Studions?

 

As far as I know, the only Pac-3 studio was located in Dearborn.  But that's a western suburb of Detroit, so, I guess that's why it was listed with the Detroit studios.  Maybe they also had a Detroit P.O. Box, to benefit from having a Detroit Address, to get on listings of Detroit recording studios.

[Robbk]

Details on Detroit Soul Music recording studios which opened before 1965  Part 1:

 

Quote

 

As I stated above, after Motown, who rented out studio time up until mid 1964, United Sound Systems On 2nd St., run by Jimmy Syracuse, was the most active.  It had run from 1933 to 1971, when it was taken over by Don Davis.  It was, by far, the most active in Detroit for many years, until Motown started staying open 24 hours a day.  Under Davis' administration, it continued to be quite active during the early 1970s.  Golden World was next, and rented out LOTS of studio time to scores, if not hundreds of smaller indie Detroit labels, and often distributed the records they had recorded for them, using their own distribution channels (Love Records, MAH's(Magictones, Emanuel Laskey), A-Go-Go(Larry Wright(Popcorn Wylie Prod), Standout(Debutantes), a few Herman Griffin productions, even a few Armen Boladian funded productions. 

Through 1964, there were relatively few commercial recording studios, outside of mostly tiny, garage or basement operated studios in independent producers' homes (like D, Bristoe Bryant's basement studio (B-B, and Albert Leigh's Garage, Echoic Studio (garage in a house on Cameron(forgot owner's name-a small-time late '50s to early '60s producer -probably also a DJ.  They recorded "I Love You" by The Volumes for Tony (Willie) Ewing's Chex label in 1962); and Popcorn Wylie's garage - He recorded for a few groups and artists - mostly demos to shop for a record deal. 

Many of Detroit's 1960s studios popped up between 1965 and 1967, AFTER Motown's smashing success and breakthrough into Pop Music.  Before that, if you wanted to record R&B Music and early Soul music during the late '50s and early 1960s, there was United Sound; Fortune Records (yes, they recorded for outside producers-despite their terrible acoustics); JVB Recording (Joe Von Battle (JVB/Von Records); Northwest Recording, Special Recordings, from 1960-64 on Duffield St. and moved to Grand Blvd. in 1965 (owned by Fred Flowerday)-operated by a well-known engineer (forget which one he was)was one of Popcorn Wylie's favourite recording spotsfrom 1962-64.  McCoy Recording (Big Mack Records-studio opened '63), Big Star Recording (Bobo Jenkins) studio-14th St.- opened 1959-record label in 1970s -few outside renters;

Numbers operator, Wilbur (Wilbert)Golden's Correc-Tone Recording (opened 1962 on 12th St.-set up by ex-Motowner, Robert Bateman, later moved to Grand River. Correc-Tone record label bought out by Ed Wingate (Golden World) in late 1965, Recording Studio bought out by Ernest Burt(Magic City Recording Studio- and Magic City Records in late '65 Herman Griffin and several other indie producers used Correc-Tone; Continental Recording Co. Just down the street on 12th, operated 1962-63 by Cal Green(who later moved to L.A.) - a favourite studio for Popcorn Wylie's early (non Correc-Tone) indie productions' recordings(Majestics(Chex), Magnetics(AllRite) Priscilla Page(Rose).  And Mike Hanks opened his Pig Pen (Bathroom Studio) in his home on McGraw, in early 1962, when he left Carmen Murphy's HOB Records to form D-Town Records(He'd already been operating his MAH's Records since 1960).  In addition to Mike's labels, they also recorded for a few local indie labels.  Another early '60s recording studio was Warren Quates' Jackpot Recording, on Ryan Road, opened in early 1962, to go along with his Jackpot Records.  He recorded Clara Hardy, Melvin Davis, Thomas(Little Jr.) Cannaday & His Midnight Flyers, as well as Jimmie Hammond, to name a few.  He also recorded demos for outside customers.

Fred Brown's Mickay's Record Shop operated a record label and recording studio from 1963, with the help of his right-hand man, Joe Hunter, after already operating Kable Records since early 1961.  They recorded for outside customers, including a few tiny indie record labels.

The earliest new recording studios trying to jump on Motown's bandwagon in 1964 included Motown producer, Dave Hamilton's Temple Recording Co., used primarily for his own Temple Records, from his basement on Philadelphia St.  He also recorded demos for outside customers. Also opened in early 1964 was Charles Stokes and Ron Holmes' Master Recording, who owned Master/Mas-Ter, Mas-Tok, Cha-Tok, and MAG Records, located on Joy Road.  They also recorded for many of Detroit's out-of-home tiny Soul record labels. Their biggest sellers were by The 4 Hollidays/Holidays, Don Heart, and The Combinations.  Other releases included The Tridettes, Chanels(female), Passionettes, DeWight (Spider/Spyder)Turner, Ster-Phonics/Stereophonics, The Channels(male), and Margaret Glover. 

Another 1964 entry was Ernie Stratton's Rainbow Recording Studio on Livernois St., who recorded for advertisers, broadcasters, and both local and national record labels.  Of course, he recorded his own Ernstrat Productions', including Ernstrat Records' Patti Young's "Head and Shoulders", and DoDe Records' Judy & The Affections' "Dum, Dum, De Dip" and Royal Playboys' releases on DoDe.  He also recorded joint projects with Harry Balk and Irv Michanic's EmBee Productions on The Dynamics' Big Top and Top Ten Records and Judi & Affections' Top Ten Records.  He recorded some recordings for major national labels, as well.  Milan Bogdan was his main sound engineer.  In late 1966, Stratton sold out to Ralph Terrana and Al Sherman, who expanded the studio into the bank next door, and renamed it Tera-Shirma Studios.  Tera-Shirma got a lot of work from independent producer, Mike Terry and other producers who had been using Golden World and didn't move over to Motown along with Golden World's studio and the few singers and producers whose contracts were bought by Motown, or were offered new contracts, which were accepted.  In addition to Terry, Mike Valvano and his crew used Sidra and Tera-Shirma as their main recording studios.  Harry Balk used Tera Shirma until he was hired by Motown.  Now, independent producer, Joe Hunter, brought his Pied Piper and other Detroit indie projects to Tera Shirma.  Even Ollie McLaughlin brought a lot of his projects to Tera Shirma.  In 1971 Terrana and Sherman sold out to George Lemons, who changed the studio's name to Gold Soul Studios, for his Gold Soul Productions and record label.  He also rented time to small indie producers, including Ron Murphy's Ron's Records, and Soul King labels.

[David Meikle]

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

As far as I know, the only Pac-3 studio was located in Dearborn.  But that's a western suburb of Detroit, so, I guess that's why it was listed with the Detroit studios.  Maybe they also had a Detroit P.O. Box, to benefit from having a Detroit Address, to get on listings of Detroit recording studios.

Pac-3 was based at 7106 Greenfield in Dearborn and was owned by Richard Becker. There were two studios, the first of which was opened in 1967. Richard let me see it in 2001. It was very small and appeared to be used as a store. There was only one Pac-3 address and that was at Greenfield.

Regards Echoic, Ron Murphy gave me some old documents which showed Albert Leigh as “Salesman”.  I am sure he was also the owner. 

[Robbk]

2 minutes ago, David Meikle said:

Pac-3 was based at 7106 Greenfield in Dearborn and was owned by Richard Becker. There were two studios, the first of which was opened in 1967. Richard let me see it in 2001. It was very small and appeared to be used as a store. There was only one Pac-3 address and that was at Greenfield.

Regards Echoic, Ron Murphy gave me some old documents which showed Albert Leigh as “Salesman”.  I am sure he was also the owner. 

Thanks, David.  Were BOTH of those studios in Dearborn, or was one in Detroit?

Of course Echoic was owned by Leigh.  It was located in his garage.  It was a 1-man operation.  So, I guess he did all his selling/marketing on his own.  There were a LOT of Detroit residents operating taping services out of their garages or basements back in the 1950s and early '60s.  It was only starting in mid 1964, after Motown started hitting it big, that so many recording studios started popping up in commercial buildings, with higher-level recording equipment.  Between 1964 and 1967 there were more than 40 or so, I can think of even offhand!  I'm writing details about those I know something about at this very moment (Part 2 - those founded after the start of 1965).

[David Meikle]

The two studios were at the same address. Pac-3 was only ever in Dearborn. The first studio was at the rear of the address in a separate building. The second studio was appended to the main building. Must have been an expansion as Richard was doing well with Parliament/Funkadelic in the early seventies.

[Roburt]

With everyone with the right knowledge seeming to comment on this thread, it really does contain some great info.

Someone should take down the info posted and turn it into a proper article to go up in the ARTICLES section of the site. That way, it could be used as a source for anyone wanting the definitive details on 1960's Detroit Recording studios / producers and their work.  

[David Meikle]

19 minutes ago, Roburt said:

With everyone with the right knowledge seeming to comment on this thread, it really does contain some great info.

Someone should take down the info posted and turn it into a proper article to go up in the ARTICLES section of the site. That way, it could be used as a source for anyone wanting the definitive details on 1960's Detroit Recording studios / producers and their work.  

I made such a list from 10 years worth of Detroit Yellow Pages. see this link.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/web06-studio database/studio text/index.html

The list is at the rear of this link.

Ignore the unfriendly note on the opening page! Detail can be copied as long as I am credited.

Edited September 28 by David Meikle
last sentence added

[Roburt]

David, lots of folk go to those informative pages on the SOULFUL DETROIT archive to learn stuff. The maps & pics on your pages are especially interesting / useful.

Just thought that there's some very useful info on this thread that isn't included on your pages + your pages deal with many other bits of info too. 

Edited September 28 by Roburt

[Robbk]

2 hours ago, David Meikle said:

I made such a list from 10 years worth of Detroit Yellow Pages. see this link.

https://soulfuldetroit.com/web06-studio database/studio text/index.html

The list is at the rear of this link.

Ignore the unfriendly note on the opening page! Detail can be copied as long as I am credited.

Thanks David, for clearing up the one or two Dearborn studios question.

And yes, I learned about quite a few Detroit Studios I hadn't known about from reading your list and researching them further.  That was a very valuable bunch of work to help save the knowledge of what happened in Detroit's music industry during the 1960s.  

[Robbk]

Details of 1960s Detroit Soul Music recording studios opened starting in 1965 and after:

Starting with 1965 studio foundations, ex-Motowner, now Independent producer, Dave Hamilton, moved his recording studio from his home on Philadelphia St. to a commercial property (ex-warehouse?) on Highland Ave. , partnering up with singer/songwriter Darrell Goolsby(AKA Rony Darrell).  It was called T.C.B. Recording Studios. Also, with offices in that building, their new DaDa Productions produced records for their new labels, TCB Records and Topper Records (He later added Demoristic Records).  They also recorded demos for outside indie producers.  In addition to production for their own labels, they produced some record projects for Mercury Records, including "He Loves Me" and "He's The Right Kind of Guy" by The Chalfontes.

Another 1965 opening was Lou Beatty's and Rev. James Hendrix's LaBeat Recording Co., on 14th St., which included the offices of Hendrix's Carrie Records, and Beatty's LaBeat/Mary Jane/Cool School Records.  They recorded mostly for their own labels, plus a few recordings Beatty later leased to outside labels, and made demos for some outside clients.  Their main artists included Edward Hamilton and The Arabians and The Masqueraders.  However, I don't know of any outside customer's recoding session that led to even a locally charted record.

Another '65 founding was Pioneer Recording Studio, owned and operated by Gary Rubin and Alan Sussman, who also operated Pioneer Records, whose best-selling records were by The Modernistics, and The Gambrells(whose "Jive Talk" is well known by Soulies). They operated from a commercial property on Tracy St. in 1965, and moved to a larger building on James Couzens in 1966.  Most of their customers were outside clients, made up of tiny local record labels, aspiring singers and musicians wanting professionally-made demo tapes, and some advertising clients.  Sometimes they got the odd order from larger labels whose favourite studio was booked up, and they wanted to get a recording made right away.  There were several local hits on small Detroit labels that were recorded at Pioneer, but I cant remember which, at the moment.

Artie Fields Productions was operating by 1965, but I'm not sure if he opened his recording studio to the public in '65 or '66.  He operated Top Dog Records, which issued 45s by Joe Towns, Kris Peterson, and The Camel Drivers.  His facilities, label, and rights were bought out by Motown in 1967.  Joe Towns' "Together We Can Make Sweet Music" was recorded by The Spinners and its publishing transferred to Jobete Music.  Fields, himself a Jazz musician, produced Jazz, Funk, and Pop Music, as well, most released on LPs.  He did rent his studio out ton outside clients, and also recorded their artists for them.  I can't recall any outside Soul 45s recorded there, at the moment.  But, I remember that there were a few I've learned about in the past.

Another of the more prominent Detroit recording studios founded in 1966 was Sidra, owned by Joe Casey and Raymond Jackson, with Rock-A-Billy singer and record producer, Johnny Powers(Nee John Pavlik (one-time SDF member back in our early days)) rumoured to have also been involved from its start.  But I think his involvement only started in 1967, when he shut down his own Sound, Inc. Studio, and merged his operation with Sidra's.  It was located in a warehouse-type building on Wyoming, and housed in addition to parent label Sidra Records, subsidiaries:  Sound, W.I.G., Drew, and Teen Town Records.  They recorded Barbara Mercer, Timmy Willis, Gwen Owens, The Precisions, Gino Washington, The Embraceables, and Ronnie & Robyn, among others, plus lots of Garage Bands, and Pop Music.  As stated above Mike Terry, George McGregor, Mike Valvano/Coleman & Bassoline, The Pied Piper crew, and even Bridges/Knight/ & Eaton recorded quite a bit at Sidra.  So did Mutt Records, whose owner, Nate Doré, had a tie in with Sidra.  In fact, HE was the one who sent Bridges, Knight, & Eaton to Sidra to work on The Precisions' Drew cuts.  Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey recorded a lot at Sidra, as well, in addition to recording at Tera-Shirma.  

Speaking of Johnny Powers, (who recorded Elvis impersonation Rock-A-Billy and C&W ballads for Motown for several years, and also recorded for Fortune, Fox, and even Sun Records), he founded Sound, Inc. Studios on Van Dyke St. also in 1966.  He recorded mostly Garage Band, Rock, and Pop Music.  But there were also a few '60s Soul records recorded there, including:  Velgo 001 by Gwen Owens (her 2nd Velgo issue was recorded at New Mystical Recording), plus The Sharpetts' record on Sound City, plus Vivian Jones and Bernie Moore on Lark Records, all distributed by Sound, Inc.  I seem to remember that there were 2 Soul 45s released on Sound Inc. Records, which must have been recorded in his studio, but I can't remember the artists.  In early 1967 Powers shut down his recording studio, sand he merged his operations with Sidra's.

Another 1966 foundation was Major Reynolds' Tri-Sound Recording Co., located on Hamilton Ave.  Reynolds also operated Tri-Sound Records, which was located on Hamilton, in Highland Park.  In addition to recording Ed Crook and The Devotions' records on his own label, he also recorded the Art Posey and Soulettes records on Scope Records.  I don't think Tri-Sound lasted more than a year or two.  I can't think of any other known records that were recorded there.  I'd guess they recorded demos for aspiring artists, and recorded a few cuts for tiny labels, and maybe got a few "overload jobs" when the major studios were fully booked.  Clearly, they didn't do well, or they'd have lasted longer.

Another record company-owned studio started in 1966 was Diamond Jim Riley's Diamond Recording Company, located on Linwood St., which recorded mainly for Riley's labels, Riley's, Diamond Jim, and Big "D", as well as for outside clients.  It's in-house band leader, (guitarist) Joey "Kingfish" Stribling, who came to Riley's from Thelma Records in 1966, after The Colemans were bought out by Berry Gordy, brought his band along to record for Riley's artists, as well as for smaller label's projects.  He also was one of Riley's most used producers.  They moved to a larger building on Dexter in 1967.  I can't think of any specific smaller Detroit labels that recorded at Diamond, but I'm sure there were several - certainly those that were distributed locally by Riley's, when their records couldn't get picked up by a regional distributor. 

The last Detroit recording studio I know that was founded in 1966 was Viney Recording Studio, also on Dexter, owned and operated by singer, Forest Hairston.  He operated Viney Records, whose only release that I know of was "We Go To Pieces", by himself.  I assume that it was a very small operation, and he mainly recorded demos for aspiring artists.  I can't remember any other small labels that used his studio.

Danny Dallas opened his Sound Patterns DXM Recording Studio in 1967, on Chicago Ave.  He also operated his own record label, Sound Patterns.  He also had his own record out on Ernie Stratton';s Top Ten Records.  He had worked as a sound engineer at United Sound and Special Recording, before that.  I don't think his studio lasted more than a couple years, according to a few threads on Soulful Detroit Forum from the very early 2000s.  He was really well liked by musicians Bob Babbitt, Dennis Coffey, George Katsakis, Bobby Eli, etc.  Most of the records he recorded at Sound Patterns that I know about were Rock, and Garage Band music.  I can't think of any Soul records recorded at Sound Patterns.  I'm sure he worked on some at Special and United Sound.

1967 was also the year Guido Marasco opened GM Recording Studio, on East Nine Mile Road, whose name later changed to Bump Shop Recording, I think in 1970, named after the auto body shop, next door.  His brother Johnny was chief sound engineer and ran the studio.  They also operated The GM and Bump Shop record labels.  They recorded Rock, Garage Band, Funk, and a few Soul records for their own record labels, as well as recordings for outside clients.  The Soul records I know of that were  recorded there were: 2 Dee Edwards records (1 on GM, and 1 on Bump Shop), both produced by Floyd Jones, 3 records by The Final Decisions (2 on Bump Shop, produced by Mike Terry, and one on Hi-C, produced by Jay Davis and arranged by Rudy Robinson), plus an Albert Jones record on Bump Shop, produced by Darrell Bell.  I did hear that they recorded for outside clients.  But I can't remember which Soul records were recorded there, or which other labels or producers used their services.  I'd guess that Mike Terry recorded several more sessions there than the couple I described.  

Doc Kyle opened up Detroit Sound Recording Co. in 1966 or 1967 (not sure), on Grand River Ave., to serve his new Detroit Sound record label, as well as serve outside clients.  Apparently, Chip Steiner ran the record label, as Kyle had a doctor's practice to operate (pardon the pun).  (unless Steiner's Detroit Sound Record Co. was the OTHER Detroit-based Detroit Sound Records which released The Sequins' record in 1964.  But I didn't think the 2 companies operated at the same time.  In any case, I'm only referring to Kyles recording studio.  The other label didn't own one.  I have read and heard that Detroit Sound DID record for outside clients, but can't remember any specific records, outside labels or Soul artists that used their studio.  They recorded Robert Walker and The Night Riders, The Detroit Vibrations, and The Little Sisters for their own label.

This last studio, Dotty's Recording Co., was operating in 1967, but I'm not sure when it opened.   owned and operated by Clifford Marshall, who operated Dotty's Records and Whip Records, and co-owned Northern Del-La Records together with Johnnie Mae Matthews.  Those labels recorded Little Roger Hatcher, Johnny Hampton, Lee Jennings, Gail Nevels, Babbette & Mel, and Carol Anderson, as well as Telma Laverne (Thelma Hopkins), and Calvin Williams.  (The latter 2 on Northern Del-La may have been recorded before the recording studio opened).  I don't know if they recorded for outside clients, but most of the studios did.  I don't know of any outside producers, other than Johnnie Mae Matthews, and the other producers from her other labels that would have recorded at Dotty's.

Edited September 30 by Robbk

[Roburt]

I think all the above + David's SOULFUL DETROIT bits mean just about all (well a very substantial % at the very least) we need to know about how the majority of Detroit's 60's soul recordings came about has been detailed.

. . . . now we just have to do the same sort of thing for the 60's Chicago recordings that had major Detroit input.

BTW, without the input / info from Robb & David, this thread would be devoid of much of the essential info it contains. Long may they grace us with their presence & data.   

[Robbk]

3 hours ago, Roburt said:

I think all the above + David's SOULFUL DETROIT bits mean just about all (well a very substantial % at the very least) we need to know about how the majority of Detroit's 60's soul recordings came about has been detailed.

. . . . now we just have to do the same sort of thing for the 60's Chicago recordings that had major Detroit input.

BTW, without the input / info from Robb & David, this thread would be devoid of much of the essential info it contains. Long may they grace us with their presence & data.   

If only someone had asked this question between 2006 and 2010*, *when Soulful Detroit Forum changed its platform, and a large percentage of its thread archives were accidentally erased, and are now gone forever. When we started in early 2001 to about 2006, many of our threads were made up mostly of people who had been players in Detroit's record production and recording industry, plus heavy Detroit R&B and Soul record collectors (most of whom lived in Detroit or had regularly travelled to Detroit to scrounge for its obscure local records).  The threads had 1960s Detroit producers, musicians, sound engineers, sing artists, even a few record label owners, and heavy Detroit record collectors, who were living and working in Detroit during the 1960s, or buying records there back then and talking about who did what and where.  That included people that worked At Motown, Golden World, with Artie Fields, Don Davis, at Golden World Studio, in The Snakepit, at United Sound, stories about recording sessions at Pioneer, Special, Sidra, Tera-Shirma, where records were mastered and pressed, stories about how record projects came about, singers and groups were discovered, just about anything a historian and fan would want to ask.  Researchers and history writers would just have had to read over those 2001 through mid 2010 SDF threads with a fine toothed comb, and write up a detailed history of The Detroit Soul Music industry during the 1960s.  What a shame that no one did it.  There were wonderful detailed first hand experienced stories that were often funny and very surprising, and gave the reader a great feel for what things were like back then.  I was glad not only to be able to read them, but also to participate in those discussions.  I have to thank my good friend Rod Shard, for turning me on to that website, soon after it started up, and David, for starting it up with Lowell, and Ralph Terrana for keeping it going these last many years.

[Robbk]

4 hours ago, Roburt said:

I think all the above + David's SOULFUL DETROIT bits mean just about all (well a very substantial % at the very least) we need to know about how the majority of Detroit's 60's soul recordings came about has been detailed.

. . . . now we just have to do the same sort of thing for the 60's Chicago recordings that had major Detroit input.

BTW, without the input / info from Robb & David, this thread would be devoid of much of the essential info it contains. Long may they grace us with their presence & data.   

A whole book could be written about the interplay between Detroit and Chicago's Soul Music industry during the 1960s, concerning Motown's recording their artists' records in Chicago and Motown's musicians recording in Chicago on Chicago labels' recording projects, Mike Hanks and Mike Terry recording Chicago artists contracted to Chicago labels (for Bill Ehrman's and Bob Catron's labels and Ric Williams' and Joshie Armstead's, and Bridges,Knight & Eaton's, Andre Williams', Barrett Strong's, Sonny Sanders', and Jerry-O's, Joe Murphy's, and Jimmy Holland's, and so many others bouncing between working in the two cities' music industries).  

[Wilxy]

I must say, the thread in totality is awe inspiring, and one I selfishly don't want to end....superb knowledge, and very much appreciated

[Peter99]

8 minutes ago, Wilxy said:

I must say, the thread in totality is awe inspiring, and one I selfishly don't want to end....superb knowledge, and very much appreciated

I fully concur; it's a real education into so many different aspects of the music that weaves us all together.

Thanks everyone for making it all so worthwhile. 

Regards

Peter

[Roburt]

With Detroit music was the IN THING in the mid 60's, it was obvious other record companies would try to enjoy hits by getting in on Motown's act. 

Atlantic hooked up with Ollie McLaughlin and were getting hits with Barbara Lewis & the Capitols (who cut their big hit @ Golden World). Amy / Mala / Bell tried with cuts by Gino Washington & Melvin Davis. Chess got hits on Fontella Bass by copying the Motown sound, + they put out loads of other Detroit linked tracks. 

It isn't a secret that most US record companies were looking to capture that MOTOWN SOUND in the mid to late 60's, in order to get hits from that same rich vein. Companies were using Motown's musicians and signing their ex acts / producers / writers in an effort to get on the train.

Over in Cleveland, Way Out Records had been struggling to sell enough of their 45's to stay afloat. They did deals to get national distribution from bigger labels, they took in 'outside money' to fund developments (Jim Brown, the NFL star & his Big Jim label releases in 1967). They wanted their own studio, but wanted the sound in there to have that 'hit magic'. Lou Ragland was a big part of their team at the time (67), but they couldn't fund any 45 releases. So they leased out his tracks to Amy in early 67. They then sent him on a mission to find out how Detroit got THEIR sound. He spent time in Detroit but couldn't get into the Motown studio. He did visit Golden World & United Sound and helped out on some recording sessions there. His most high profile contribution was playing on the backing track to a song titled "If This Is Love (I'd Rather Be Lonely) in early summer 67. He never actually met the group (the Precisions) who got to add their vocals to the track, as they weren't in the studio when the backing track was laid down. With what he had learnt, Lou returned to Cleveland and helped lay out the studio that Way Out had just constructed. They got close to that Detroit sound with some of their recordings, but they never got the big hits they were hoping for.       

[Robbk]

3 minutes ago, Roburt said:

With Detroit music was the IN THING in the mid 60's, it was obvious other record companies would try to enjoy hits by getting in on Motown's act. 

Atlantic hooked up with Ollie McLaughlin and were getting hits with Barbara Lewis & the Capitols (who cut their big hit @ Golden World). Amy / Mala / Bell tried with cuts by Gino Washington & Melvin Davis. Chess got hits on Fontella Bass by copying the Motown sound, + they put out loads of other Detroit linked tracks. 

It isn't a secret that most US record companies were looking to capture that MOTOWN SOUND in the mid to late 60's, in order to get hits from that same rich vein. Companies were using Motown's musicians and signing their ex acts / producers / writers in an effort to get on the train.

Over in Cleveland, Way Out Records had been struggling to sell enough of their 45's to stay afloat. They did deals to get national distribution from bigger labels, they took in 'outside money' to fund developments (Jim Brown, the NFL star & his Big Jim label releases in 1967). They wanted their own studio, but wanted the sound in there to have that 'hit magic'. Lou Ragland was a big part of their team at the time (67), but they couldn't fund any 45 releases. So they leased out his tracks to Amy in early 67. They then sent him on a mission to find out how Detroit got THEIR sound. He spent time in Detroit but couldn't get into the Motown studio. He did visit Golden World & United Sound and helped out on some recording sessions there. His most high profile contribution was playing on the backing track to a song titled "If This Is Love (I'd Rather Be Lonely) in early summer 67. He never actually met the group (the Precisions) who got to add their vocals to the track, as they weren't in the studio when the backing track was laid down. With what he had learnt, Lou returned to Cleveland and helped lay out the studio that Way Out had just constructed. They got close to that Detroit sound with some of their recordings, but they never got the big hits they were hoping for.       

Which cuts on Way Out sound to you "close to Motown"?

I'm surprised that Edwin Starr, Ragland's old Cleveland buddy, couldn't get him into The Snakepit.  

[Roburt]

Robb, well the DETROIT SOUND was the sound they were definitely trying to emulate.

How close they got to it is hard to quantify but seeing as their studio acoustics were different, their mixing desk was different, their writers, producers, engineer (usually Lou back then), musicians & singers were all different .... I guess it was a thankless task. PLUS building the studio had drained all their cash, so they didn't have the luxury of going for many takes on each song to 'refine the sound' more precisely. It was straight down to recording, wam, bam, thank you man & the tracks were ready for final mixing & release.

With regard to Lou & Edwin. Back then they weren't that close, though they knew each other of course. PLUS Edwin wasn't in Detroit much around that time  (as discussed  earlier on here) --  Edwin was in the UK in September / Oct 66. He returned here to tour again in Jan / Feb / March 67, then again in May / June 67. He was here even more in 1968; 3 tours in all -- Jan / Feb 68 + May / June 68 + Sept / Oct 68 .... He was on at the Wheel in Oct 68 (& during his earlier UK tours) ... In early July 65, Edwin's first 45 had become an instant radio hit (in places such as Baltimore, Cleve, Detroit), so he had to go on the road almost instantly. So he'd returned to Cleve to hire the musicians in his new backing band. Lou knew all the guys who went off with Edwin, but he wasn't one of them himself.

Lou R really only hooked up & worked closely in conjunction with Edwin when they were both LA based in the mid 70's. This was before Lou moved on to Vegas & Edwin hit the big time again with "Contact" -- though Edwin had initially hooked up with 20th Century Records via a UK deal he had. It was only after he returned to record in LA with Lamont Dozier, Paul Riser, Hense Powell & H B Barnum that the big hits returned. 

Edited September 29 by Roburt

[Roburt]

Another Cleveland / Detroit link ...

the top Motown & Detroit acts were always playing live dates @ Cleveland venues ...

THE MIRACLES @ LEO's CASINO .... 

 

[Roburt]

To answer Robbs question from above ...

I think that Way Out were trying for a Motown sound on this 45 ... 

 

[Kenb]

On 28/09/2024 at 12:22, Robbk said:

Another '65 founding was Pioneer Recording Studio, owned and operated by Alan Sussman, who also operated Pioneer Records, whose best-selling records were by The Modernistics, and The Gambrells(whose "Jive Talk" is well known by Soulies). They operated from a commercial property on Tracy St. in 1965, and moved to a larger building on James Couzens in 1966.

I do think Gary Rubin needs a mention here. The 20 year old who started Pioneer. Sussman was a 21yr old V.P. 

Two labels Pioneer (Rock n Roll) and Empire (R &B) , New Loves.

[Kenb]

On 28/09/2024 at 12:22, Robbk said:

Speaking of Johnny Powers, (who recorded Elvis impersonation Rock-A-Billy and C&W ballads for Motown for several years, and also recorded for Fortune, Fox, and even Sun Records), he founded Sound, Inc. Studios on Van Dyke St. also in 1966. 

Don't get me wrong Robb, this and other of your posts are great...but wasn't it Larry Lick who owned Sound Inc. Johnny Powers was born in 1938, Larry Lick born in 1941. As far as i'm concerned they were not the same man.

Edited September 30 by Kenb

[Robbk]

Yes, I see what you mean about them trying to capture the feeling of "The Motown Sound".  That song has a lot of changes, some of it sounds like Motown, in parts of the vocal, in the snare drum roll, the string solo, some areas of the driving beat, some areas of the tune's melody, yet other parts sound like a New York, Philadelphia, or Chicago production.  To me, it's not much like Motown, as say, a Golden World/Ric-Tic, Don Davis' labels,Thelma, Correc-Tone, Robert Bateman's other productions, Popcorn Wiley's productions, Dave Hamilton's productions, Joe Hunter and Fred Brown's productions, or other "Off-Motown" Detroit productions played by current or former Motown musicians, written by current or former Motown songwriters, or tutored by former or current Motown writers, or recorded by sound engineers who had worked for Motown previously, or had been in The Snakepit, and knew what they were doing, or recorded in The Snakepit before mid 1964, and/or recorded in recording studios whose setups and goals had been influenced by Motown's success, and so, copied much better than out of town would be copycats.  I can't think of almost any productions outside Detroit that really sounded a LOT like Motown's classic sound, unless one or more Detroit music production person had been involved.  For example, New York's Richard Tee and his band's "Motowny sound" came about from ex-Motowner Robert Bateman (becoming a New York producer, and training him to use "The Motown style" starting in 1963, as well as Raynoma Gordy doing the same  also in that year, as she needed them to play music in The Motown style, to create demo records for current Motown singers to use when recording the songs written in her new Jobete Music New York Office-production facility. 

Chicago had some very good Motown style copying as well, mostly because of Barrett Strong and Sonny Sanders coming to Chicago to work with VJ, Okeh, and Brunswick/Dakar, and Mike Hanks working with USA, Katron (Bob Catron, Bill Ehrman (of Cortland/Witch/Ermine) Catron's boss, and Ric Williams wanting to use The Detroit Sound and using Mike Terry and Bridges/Knight/&Eaton, and Jo Armstead wanting the same for her Chicago labels, and Andre Williams and Jerry-o working out of both cities, and Carl Davis using Barrett Strong and Sonny Sanders, and his also recording at Chess, and having crossover use of songwriters with Chess, and Chess' Billy Davis having moved from his native Detroit, bringing several of his Detroit contacts and artists with his Check-Mate Records to Chicago, including Tony Clarke, Jackey Beavers, Willie Kendrick and others, and being influenced by Carln Davis' using Motown's strings style, and Carl Davis importing Motown musicians to Chicago to play on his records (i.e. Jackie Wilson's).  But, to me, only Ric Williams' Zodiac/Aquarius/Boo, etc. and Jo Armstead's Giant/Globe/Wide World, sounded much like Motown, because Mike Terry was their producer, arranger and songwriter along with Bridges, Knight & Eaton.  While most of Carl Davis' productions using The Funk Brothers, or songwriting from Detroiters sounded more like mixtures of The Chicago and Detroit Sounds.  To me, only a few of Barrett Strongs songs written especially for Marvin Smith (Artistics) when they were at Okeh Records, sound truly like Motown "This Heart Of Mine", "I'll Come Running", and "So Much Love In My Heart".  All 3 of those songs would have been right uop The Temptations' alley.

During the 1970s and '80s, so many Soulies told me that this or that US East Coast (some Cameo records), or L.A. record sounded JUST like Motown.  I never thought they did.  To me, they were just New York, Philadelphia or L.A. uptempo Soul with fast or heavy beats.  "At The Top Of The Stairs" sounds to me like East Coast - NOTHING like Motown.

There WERE L.A. records that sounded to me like Motown, but almost ALL of them were on local labels but produced by Jobete Music's L.A. office production crew (who had been trained by Motown Detroit personnel, or using their examples, to produce Motown-like music for their written songs' demos to be made to coach the Detroit Motown singers to sing them).  Or, if they were produced by L.A. NON-L.A. Motown personnel, they were people who were friends and/or previous colleagues of L.A. Motown personnel, or people influenced by them.  Certainly, Hal Davis, Marc Gordon, Frank Wilson, Ed Cobb, Chester and Gary Pipkin, H.B. Barnum, and Willie Hutchison were trained by Detroit Motown personnel and/or given song examples in the main current Motown styles explaining what they wanted for their Detroit artists.  Even The "casual" non-salaried L.A. free-lance writers  and producers who sometimes sold a few songs to Jobete, wrote songs for them and even for their own labels, that sounded more like Motown than other writers and producers around the country that also wanted to emulate "The Motown Sound", but didn't have as good a handle on what made it sound like Motown.  Even Jobete songs by L.A. DJ Herman Griffith (Joker), and Charles Wright (Later of The Watts 103rd St. Band) sounded like Motown. There were many L.A. productions that sounded like the Jobete songs sung by Mary Love, Brenda and Patrice Holloway, Gloria Jones, and Sandy Wynns.  Trudell Records was an example.  They had no official connection with Jobete L.A., but they were friendly with the writers and the demo and background singers.  I think that "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" and "Let Me Know" by Mary Love, "Run One Flight of Stairs" by Gloria Jones, and "Just A Boy's Dream" by The Phonetics are all very Motownish.  

Another example: To me, Tobi Lark's Topper, Palmer, and USD records all sound a little like Motown, MORE like off-Motown Detroit, with the Topper records sounding MOST like Motown. While her Tobi Legend record sounds like New York (I never liked those 2 cuts), even though I like her voice very much, and all her Detroit cuts.  I didn't like her New York-produced Jazz cuts, despite liking Jazz vocals.

[Robbk]

49 minutes ago, Kenb said:

I do think Gary Rubin needs a mention here. The 20 year old who started Pioneer. Sussman was a 21yr old V.P. 

Two labels Pioneer (Rock n Roll) and Empire (R &B) , New Loves.

Thanks for pointing that out, Ken.  Now  I remember that Ron Murphy mentioned Rubin to me as the owner, along with Sussman.  It's difficult to remember all these things told to me between 60 and 50 years ago.  I must have remembered Sussman alone because only his name was on David's list (and I remembered that much more because my photographic memory is much stronger than my listening memory.

Edited September 30 by Robbk