Golden World: Locals & Outsiders Involved

[Roburt]

By the time Ed Wingate was trying to get into the record biz, Berry Gordy had just about hoovered up all the Detroit soul talent (singers, musicians, producers, arrangers, etc). So to make an impact, Wingate needed to bring people in from outside Detroit or find talented locals that Berry had overlooked or discarded.

Motown had 'employed' the likes of George Clinton, Sidney Barnes, Popcorn Wiley and more but had 'discarded' them. Some singers came into town looking for record deals (Edwin Starr for instance), some acts were 'too like' already established Motown acts, so Berry had little interest in them (J J Barnes, Fantastic Four). So they gravitated to GW, but even more talent was needed by Wingate in the early to mid 60's. Ahead of his own studio being finished, some GW recordings were outsourced (some even to New York). In addition to the artists / musicians, talented song writers, arrangers & producers were needed. Some came & stayed (Al Kent) but others came & went (Sonny Sanders, biz veteran Gene Redd, etc.).

By 1966 Wingate was short on cash, so maybe that's why some talented folk left GW and found greener pastures elsewhere. That may explain some departures.

But is the true story behind the growth of GW, the establishment of the company and then it's (2 stage) sale to Motown fully understood and has it been documented properly anywhere ?

JUST LOOKING AT THE FANTASTIC FOUR. They were formed after Motown was getting big hits with numerous artists, so maybe they had no chance of being signed directly by BG. So they went to Golden World and were signed straight up. They were teamed with folk like New York's Gene Redd and eventually enjoyed releases of their own. But as GW wasn't fully formed when they arrived there, it seems they initially helped out on other acts sessions. Singing backing vocals and the like. 

An 'outsider' from another city, with his then group was sent to GW by a guy who knew the team there. They turned up with a couple of songs in their pocket. They 'auditioned' for the guys who happened to be in the GW building on arrival & impressed them enough to be allowed into the studio, They cut their 2 songs + a couple of old standards, with the companies musicians participating plus with vocal help from the Fantastic Four. A New Yorker oversaw the session and was impressed by the results. He took possession of the master tapes & saying he'd get a 45 released, disappeared back off home. 

Things didn't work out between the group, the producer & GW, so those recordings never saw the light of day ... the songs were re-cut and did gain release. However the 'outsider' group never got a copy of their Detroit recordings and never saw the master tape ever again.

This was an everyday occurrence in the record biz back then, not a situation unique to Golden World / Ric Tic. But it just illustrates what did happen back then.

So, back to my initial query -- has the comings & goings at GW been investigated and explained / documented and how badly did this effect the company & it's output. Folk recall things not exactly as they actually happened or their memories are no longer fully accurate. Also points of view differ, so one sides view of what occurred could well be different from the other sides. So lots of work would be necessary to get the full picture. BUT with the long term interest in GW's work, I'm sure much of the info has actually been gathered. 

ALSO anyone know what the ratio between recordings made & recordings released was for them ? (at outfits like Motown -- (quality control & sheer number of tracks cut) -- and Way Out in Cleveland -- (studio being a front for 'other business' & lack of funds to press up many records)  -- we know the tracks that got released were only a fraction of the actual tracks laid down. 

Edited August 9 by Roburt

[Peter99]

31 minutes ago, Roburt said:

By the time Ed Wingate was trying to get into the record biz, Berry Gordy had just about hoovered up all the Detroit soul talent (singers, musicians, producers, arrangers, etc). So to make an impact, Wingate needed to bring people in from outside Detroit or find talented locals that Berry had overlooked or discarded.

Motown had 'employed' the likes of George Clinton, Sidney Barnes, Popcorn Wiley and more but had 'discarded' them. Some singers came into town looking for record deals (Edwin Starr for instance), some acts were 'too like' already established Motown acts, so Berry had little interest in them (J J Barnes, Fantastic Four). So they gravitated to GW, but even more talent was needed by Wingate in the early to mid 60's. Ahead of his own studio being finished, some GW recordings were outsourced (some even to New York). In addition to the artists / musicians, talented song writers, arrangers & producers were needed. Some came & stayed (Al Kent) but others came & went (Sonny Sanders, biz veteran Gene Redd, etc.).

By 1966 Wingate was short on cash, so maybe that's why some talented folk left GW and found greener pastures elsewhere. That may explain some departures.

But is the true story behind the growth of GW, the establishment of the company and then it's (2 stage) sale to Motown fully understood and has it been documented properly anywhere ?

JUST LOOKING AT THE FANTASTIC FOUR. They were formed after Motown was getting big hits with numerous artists, so maybe they had no chance of being signed directly by BG. So they went to Golden World and were signed straight up. They were teamed with folk like New York's Gene Redd and eventually enjoyed releases of their own. But as GW wasn't fully formed when they arrived there, it seems they initially helped out on other acts sessions. Singing backing vocals and the like. 

An 'outsider' from another city, with his then group was sent to GW by a guy who knew the team there. They turned up with a coupe of songs in their pocket. They 'auditioned' for the guys who happened to be in the GW building on arrival & impressed them enough to be allowed into the studio, They cut their 2 songs + a couple of old standards, with the companies musicians participating plus with vocal help from the Fantastic Four. A New Yorker oversaw the session and was impressed by the results. He took possession of the master tapes & saying he'd get a 45 released, disappeared back off home. 

Things didn't work out between the group, the producer & GW, so those recordings never saw the light of day ... the songs were re-cut and did gain release. However the 'outsider' group never got a copy of their Detroit recordings and never saw the master tape ever again.

This was an everyday occurrence in the record biz back then, not a situation unique to Golden World / Ric Tic. But it just illustrates what did happen back then.

So, back to my initial query -- has the comings & goings at GW been investigated and explained / documented and how badly did this effect the output from the company & it's output. Folk recall things not exactly as they actually happened or their memories are no longer fully accurate. Also points of view differ, so one sides view of what occurred could well be different from the other sides. So lots of work would be necessary to get the full picture. BUT with the long term interest in GW's work, I'm sure much of the info has actually been gathered. 

ALSO anyone know what the ratio between recordings made & recordings released was for them ? (at outfits like Motown -- (quality control & sheer number of tracks cut) -- and Way Out in Cleveland -- (studio being a front for 'other business' & lack of funds to press up many records)  -- we know the tracks that got released were only a fraction of the actual tracks laid down. 

This is a quality piece; well done Roburt, thanks for taking the time.

Peter

[Tezcaine]

I do believe the golden world tracks sound a lot better than Motown at that early period, the holidays -I love you forever for example.

[Wilxy]

Interesting article Roburt, it totally enhances the mystery attached to the unknown output from Golden World, and furthermore the probabilities that other labels particularly from the Detroit area suffered similar fate during the same era.

         With regard to your last paragraph, I suppose the knowlege of stated circumstances, relating to the actual recordings that didn't make the cut are lost forever......unless of course?

[Blackpoolsoul]

12 hours ago, Roburt said:

By the time Ed Wingate was trying to get into the record biz, Berry Gordy had just about hoovered up all the Detroit soul talent (singers, musicians, producers, arrangers, etc). So to make an impact, Wingate needed to bring people in from outside Detroit or find talented locals that Berry had overlooked or discarded.

Motown had 'employed' the likes of George Clinton, Sidney Barnes, Popcorn Wiley and more but had 'discarded' them. Some singers came into town looking for record deals (Edwin Starr for instance), some acts were 'too like' already established Motown acts, so Berry had little interest in them (J J Barnes, Fantastic Four). So they gravitated to GW, but even more talent was needed by Wingate in the early to mid 60's. Ahead of his own studio being finished, some GW recordings were outsourced (some even to New York). In addition to the artists / musicians, talented song writers, arrangers & producers were needed. Some came & stayed (Al Kent) but others came & went (Sonny Sanders, biz veteran Gene Redd, etc.).

By 1966 Wingate was short on cash, so maybe that's why some talented folk left GW and found greener pastures elsewhere. That may explain some departures.

But is the true story behind the growth of GW, the establishment of the company and then it's (2 stage) sale to Motown fully understood and has it been documented properly anywhere ?

JUST LOOKING AT THE FANTASTIC FOUR. They were formed after Motown was getting big hits with numerous artists, so maybe they had no chance of being signed directly by BG. So they went to Golden World and were signed straight up. They were teamed with folk like New York's Gene Redd and eventually enjoyed releases of their own. But as GW wasn't fully formed when they arrived there, it seems they initially helped out on other acts sessions. Singing backing vocals and the like. 

An 'outsider' from another city, with his then group was sent to GW by a guy who knew the team there. They turned up with a couple of songs in their pocket. They 'auditioned' for the guys who happened to be in the GW building on arrival & impressed them enough to be allowed into the studio, They cut their 2 songs + a couple of old standards, with the companies musicians participating plus with vocal help from the Fantastic Four. A New Yorker oversaw the session and was impressed by the results. He took possession of the master tapes & saying he'd get a 45 released, disappeared back off home. 

Things didn't work out between the group, the producer & GW, so those recordings never saw the light of day ... the songs were re-cut and did gain release. However the 'outsider' group never got a copy of their Detroit recordings and never saw the master tape ever again.

This was an everyday occurrence in the record biz back then, not a situation unique to Golden World / Ric Tic. But it just illustrates what did happen back then.

So, back to my initial query -- has the comings & goings at GW been investigated and explained / documented and how badly did this effect the company & it's output. Folk recall things not exactly as they actually happened or their memories are no longer fully accurate. Also points of view differ, so one sides view of what occurred could well be different from the other sides. So lots of work would be necessary to get the full picture. BUT with the long term interest in GW's work, I'm sure much of the info has actually been gathered. 

ALSO anyone know what the ratio between recordings made & recordings released was for them ? (at outfits like Motown -- (quality control & sheer number of tracks cut) -- and Way Out in Cleveland -- (studio being a front for 'other business' & lack of funds to press up many records)  -- we know the tracks that got released were only a fraction of the actual tracks laid down. 

Fantastic stuff and what I have been told and read recently is that apparently Berry Gordy, either himself, or someone from the offices, spent time contacting radio stations and "asking" them not to play Golden World records in his attempt to either destroy their output or buy the company. So many backing tracks were then used by him when he bought the masters either on Motown records (often by The Debonaires and / or The Holidays) some of which were even "transferred" over to Philly and used for LP releases such as Teddy, Spinners etc and never even credited correctly. I am sure there is more to come and will attempt to find out more to add to this wonderful article

[Roburt]

My post is really just a listing of what I already know about the GW set-up. With a couple of questions I really wanted the answer to added on.

I'm no Detroit expert, whilst we have many much more knowledgeable such folk on here. I am hoping they'll post on this thread & fill in some of the gaps.

FOR INSTANCE ... are the details / circumstances of Sonny Sanders & Gene Redd's work with GW and their reasons for leaving known ? On lots of GW / Ric Tic 45's there is minimal info on the arranger / producers involved.

Sonny was with GW in 64 but had relocated to Chicago & was with Brunswick by 68.

Gene Redd was with GW in 65/ 66 but was with Kool & the Gang / De Lite by 69.

[Wheelsville1]

On 10/08/2024 at 10:05, Roburt said:

My post is really just a listing of what I already know about the GW set-up. With a couple of questions I really wanted the answer to added on.

I'm no Detroit expert, whilst we have many much more knowledgeable such folk on here. I am hoping they'll post on this thread & fill in some of the gaps.

FOR INSTANCE ... are the details / circumstances of Sonny Sanders & Gene Redd's work with GW and their reasons for leaving known ? On lots of GW / Ric Tic 45's there is minimal info on the arranger / producers involved.

Sonny was with GW in 64 but had relocated to Chicago & was with Brunswick by 68.

Gene Redd was with GW in 65/ 66 but was with Kool & the Gang / De Lite by 69.

I thought Sonny Sanders left GW to join Robert Bateman at Correc-tone and form Sonbert records.

[Blackpoolsoul]

24 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

I thought Sonny Sanders left GW to join Robert Bateman at Correc-tone and form Sonbert records.

I "think" it was the other way round and then In 1965 Sonny was taken to Chicago by Carl Davis where he worked for Okeh and Brunswick. 

[Wheelsville1]

8 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I "think" it was the other way round and then In 1965 Sonny was taken to Chicago by Carl Davis where he worked for Okeh and Brunswick. 

The two Yvonne Vernee Sonbert releases were in 65 so i guess sonny would have left after those.

[Tlscapital]

57 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

I thought Sonny Sanders left GW to join Robert Bateman at Correc-tone and form Sonbert records.

Indeed as Blackpool said Sonny Sanders worked first with Robert Bateman at Correc-Tone and its Sonbert subsidiary up to 1965 (no precise date found) ending with Yvonne Vernee last 45 'Just Like You Did Me'.

Then Sonny Sanders joined Golden World by May 1965 for a string of productions up to September 1965. Before joining later Carl Davis at Brunswick to start up their brilliant and successful 'dream team' work.

[The Yank]

One of Sonny's earliest releases on Brunswick was this LaVern Baker 45- If you look at the credits, there are names that are more closely associated with Golden World than Chicago- 

 

[Tlscapital]

16 hours ago, The Yank said:

One of Sonny's earliest releases on Brunswick was this LaVern Baker 45- If you look at the credits, there are names that are more closely associated with Golden World than Chicago- 

 

26 February 1966 indeed. Which likely means that this could have been a one shot joint venture session with some of the guys from Golden World featuring Sonny Sanders as musical director, Ronnie Savoy as co-producer and Eugene Hamilton brother of Bob and Albert as composer (also did Jackie Wlson's previous Brunswick release 'Soul Galore').

Which is clearly what 'One Monkey (Don't Stop No Show)' sounds like ; a mid sixties Brunswick New York production release. Which makes this sole LaVern Baker side an odd yet interesting release. Not sounding at all a Golden World product by any means nor to the Chicago based productions that will follow with the Jalynne / BRC deal at Brunswick.

Registered under the Merrimac New-York Copyright Publishing company. All this before September (August corrected) 1966 when the first 'dream team' consisting of Sonny Sanders, Carl Davis and Gerald Sims got to get together for their well worth musically as commercially third effort and release for Brunswick with the Artistics 'I'm gonna miss you'.

Edited August 12 by Tlscapital

[Roburt]

Thanks for the input.

Is it known if Sonny fell out with the GW management or did he just get a better offer to go to Chicago.

Obviously at that time (late 65 / early 66). lots of Chicago artists were going with a 'Detroit sound', so it only seems sensible that they'd recruit guys who knew how things were done in the Motor city.

And it wasn't just Brunswick acts that were going 'Detroit', Fontella Bass over @ Chess went with the sound too from late summer 65.

Anyone got the full SP of Gene Redd's transition from GW to De-Lite ?

ANOTHER QUESTION: did the Brit soul guys who spent time in Detroit, tracking down the 60's music biz folk there, manage to establish who the producers / arrangers on lots of GW tracks were ?  

Obviously the likes of Sonny Sanders, Gene Redd and others would have been utilised on such duties when working @ GW. 

Paying for all GW's facilities obviously left the company short on cash. I wonder if the volume of 'outside work' that they had been expecting through 1965 didn't actually materialise. Has a full listing of 'outside tracks' cut @ Golden World been compiled ?

ALSO, guess BG would not have been too impressed seeing ads such as the one placed by Roulette in 65...

Edited August 12 by Roburt

[The Yank]

9 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

.

. All this before September 1966 when the first 'dream team' consisting of Sonny Sanders, Carl Davis (joined later by Gerald Sims) got to get together for their well worth musically as commercially first effort and release for Brunswick with the Artistics 'I'm gonna miss you'.

The dream team actually got its start a bit earlier (August or July?) with the release of "Whispers" -

[Tlscapital]

55 minutes ago, The Yank said:

The dream team actually got its start a bit earlier (August or July?) with the release of "Whispers" -

Yes indeed again  Jackie Wilson's first of his sublime strings of most soulful singles on Brunswick 5300.

Here the first Carl Davis, Gerald Sims & Sonny Sanders (on flip) Dream Team job on Brunswick 55299.

Beat U to it 

Edited August 12 by Tlscapital

[Roburt]

Gene Redd in charge on this, with lots of other Detroiters involved too ...

would this have been cut @ GW ?  ... 

[Peter99]

There's some extremely interesting information coming out of this thread. Way above my head, but still open to learning.

Thanks to everyone who have contributed; the knowledge of members on here is quite something.

Regards

Peter

[Tlscapital]

November 1967 recorded in Detroit and produced by Sonny Sanders...

Edited August 12 by Tlscapital

[Blackpoolsoul]

8 hours ago, Roburt said:

Thanks for the input.

Is it known if Sonny fell out with the GW management or did he just get a better offer to go to Chicago.

Obviously at that time (late 65 / early 66). lots of Chicago artists were going with a 'Detroit sound', so it only seems sensible that they'd recruit guys who knew how things were done in the Motor city.

And it wasn't just Brunswick acts that were going 'Detroit', Fontella Bass over @ Chess went with the sound too from late summer 65.

Anyone got the full SP of Gene Redd's transition from GW to De-Lite ?

ANOTHER QUESTION: did the Brit soul guys who spent time in Detroit, tracking down the 60's music biz folk there, manage to establish who the producers / arrangers on lots of GW tracks were ?  

Obviously the likes of Sonny Sanders, Gene Redd and others would have been utilised on such duties when working @ GW. 

Paying for all GW's facilities obviously left the company short on cash. I wonder if the volume of 'outside work' that they had been expecting through 1965 didn't actually materialise. Has a full listing of 'outside tracks' cut @ Golden World been compiled ?

ALSO, guess BG would not have been too impressed seeing ads such as the one placed by Roulette in 65...

 

In 1966 Carl Davis moved over to Brunswick and Sanders went with him. Their first major project was re-vitalising the career of Jackie Wilson with the timeless ‘Whispers’. Sanders worked with Wilson on numerous other tracks and ironically the musicians he used for the cuts were his old Detroit associates, The Funk Brothers who were moonlighting anonymously from the Gordy snakepit. Sanders went on to work with the major Brunswick artists … people like Gene Chandler, Tyrone Davis, Barbara Acklin, the Chi-Lites, the Artistics and Walter Jackson. Sanders also wrote prolifically. Amongst his best known tunes are ‘Soulful Strut’/’Am I The Same Girl’ and ‘With This Ring’ which became a hit for the Platters.

Sonny Sanders later worked with Chubby and the Turnpikes (who, of course, became Tavares) and Manchild (Babyface’s first band). 

[Peter99]

4 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 

In 1966 Carl Davis moved over to Brunswick and Sanders went with him. Their first major project was re-vitalising the career of Jackie Wilson with the timeless ‘Whispers’. Sanders worked with Wilson on numerous other tracks and ironically the musicians he used for the cuts were his old Detroit associates, The Funk Brothers who were moonlighting anonymously from the Gordy snakepit. Sanders went on to work with the major Brunswick artists … people like Gene Chandler, Tyrone Davis, Barbara Acklin, the Chi-Lites, the Artistics and Walter Jackson. Sanders also wrote prolifically. Amongst his best known tunes are ‘Soulful Strut’/’Am I The Same Girl’ and ‘With This Ring’ which became a hit for the Platters.

Sonny Sanders later worked with Chubby and the Turnpikes (who, of course, became Tavares) and Manchild (Babyface’s first band). 

Great stuff.

I never knew about Chubby and the Turnpikes! Tavares is a much better name - made some good records with the above input I guess. 

Peter

[Roburt]

5 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 

 SONNY SANDERS - Amongst his best known tunes are ‘Soulful Strut’/’Am I The Same Girl’ and ‘With This Ring’ which became a hit for the Platters.

When you check the 45 version of "With This Ring" it gives the writers as Popcorn + Tony Hester + Luther Dixon, with Luther also producing. Of course, the track was included on their 'Going Back To Detroit' LP which featured recycled old Detroit recorded backing tracks. I was told that Gene Redd was also involved with the Platters on "With This Ring".

Neither Sonny Sanders of Gene Redd seem to ever get an acknowledgement as having worked with the Platters on the recording.  

I interviewed Sonny Turner years ago (lead singer with the Platters in 60's) but I didn't think to ask him about the making of "With This Ring" and who was involved. 

Does anything relevant get a mention in the booklet to Kent's CD .. The Platters Musicor Years ? . .  I have the CD somewhere but no idea where. 

Edited August 12 by Roburt

[Blackpoolsoul]

4 hours ago, Roburt said:

When you check the 45 version of "With This Ring" it gives the writers as Popcorn + Tony Hester + Luther Dixon, with Luther also producing. Of course, the track was included on their 'Going Back To Detroit' LP which featured recycled old Detroit recorded backing tracks. I was told that Gene Redd was also involved with the Platters on "With This Ring".

Neither Sonny Sanders of Gene Redd seem to ever get an acknowledgement as having worked with the Platters on the recording.  

I interviewed Sonny Turner years ago (lead singer with the Platters in 60's) but I didn't think to ask him about the making of "With This Ring" and who was involved. 

Does anything relevant get a mention in the booklet to Kent's CD .. The Platters Musicor Years ? . .  I have the CD somewhere but no idea where. 

They did write it, Sonny was the arranger on the record (perhaps with Gene). It's not mentioned on the CD notes.

Edited August 13 by Blackpoolsoul

[Roburt]

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

They did write it, Sonny was the arranger on the record (perhaps with Gene). It's not mentioned on the CD notes.

As I said above, lots of the backing tracks on cuts from the LP were re-cycled from earlier Detroit studio sessions .... BUT I think the backing on "With This Ring" was newly created & not recycled (could be wrong though).

Guess with Chicago acts / sessions using Detroit musicians & going for the Detroit Sound, Luther Dixon decided to do the same to 'update' the Platters sound. It certainly worked, whoever's idea it was. "Washed Ashore" was a Wylie / Hester / Sanders effort too. The Platters cut in New York but guess the backing track had been cut in Detroit once again.

Jumping back to Tony & Tyrone, their "Please Operator" seems to have gained a LATE release (Nov 67) for the people involved. If it was actually cut in Detroit, I'd say it had 'sat around' for a while before Atlantic picked it up.

 

[Roburt]

Three of my all time faves (from back in the mid 60's) are Marvin Smith "Have More Time" & the Artistics "I'm Gonna Miss You / Hope We Have" ... Sonny Sanders worked on them all .... talented or what.

 

[Roburt]

Robert Pruter in 'CHICAGO SOUL' writes ... by the time "Dear Lover" was released in February 66 ... Davis credited as producer ... the song was written by Carl Davis and Gerald Sims & arranged by Sonny Sanders, who had recently been brought to Chicago from Detroit. 

Seems he got the release date for "Dear Lover" wrong. It came out at the end of December 65 and was reviewed in the US music press that was published in mid January 66. Mary had signed with Atco around October 65 & I guess it made sense for the label to team her with an ex Detroit guy. So it seems likely that the track was cut in late November / early December 65 and rush released. So it seems Sonny Sanders was working with Carl Davis in Chicago as early as December 65.  

[Roburt]

Carl Davis came to Brunswick from Okeh & as soon as he got there he hired a talented team to help him (Sonny Sanders, Gerald Sims, etc). BUT I don't think it's ever been fully explained why he left Okeh so suddenly. 

Pieces from the US music press through 1965 paint a picture of both sides (Okeh / Epic & Davis) being happy & Davis hiring staffers and getting promotions ... something obviously happened in the August / September 65 period to sour the relationship and prompt Davis to jump ship to Brunswick. He probably had a falling out with the Epic execs in New York, but why / over what is probably lost in the mists of time.

The Mary Wells track he worked on ("Dear Lover") returned her to the US charts and was reviewed by Cashbox the same week as the ladies who seemed to take her place @ Motown also had their new 45 reviewed.  

Edited August 14 by Roburt

[Tlscapital]

2 hours ago, Roburt said:

Robert Pruter in 'CHICAGO SOUL' writes ... by the time "Dear Lover" was released in February 66 ... Davis credited as producer ... the song was written by Carl Davis and Gerald Sims & arranged by Sonny Sanders, who had recently been brought to Chicago from Detroit. 

Seems he got the release date for "Dear Lover" wrong. It came out at the end of December 65 and was reviewed in the US music press that was published in mid January 66. Mary had signed with Atco around October 65 & I guess it made sense for the label to team her with an ex Detroit guy. So it seems likely that the track was cut in late November / early December 65 and rush released. So it seems Sonny Sanders was working with Carl Davis in Chicago as early as December 65.  

Yes, yes and yes. While I know it so specifically because of the team-up that early YET it totally escaped my memory brain cells here... While it was on the tip of my tongue all this time... Thanks for digging this one out from the lost corner in the back of my mind. Evidence.

[Tlscapital]

5 hours ago, Roburt said:

Carl Davis came to Brunswick from Okeh & as soon as he got there he hired a talented team to help him (Sonny Sanders, Gerald Sims, etc). BUT I don't think it's ever been fully explained why he left Okeh so suddenly. 

Pieces from the US music press through 1965 paint a picture of both sides (Okeh / Epic & Davis) being happy & Davis hiring staffers and getting promotions ... something obviously happened in the August / September 65 period to sour the relationship and prompt Davis to jump ship to Brunswick. He probably had a falling out with the Epic execs in New York, but why / over what is probably lost in the mists of time.

The Mary Wells track he worked on ("Dear Lover") returned her to the US charts and was reviewed by Cashbox the same week as the ladies who seemed to take her place @ Motown also had their new 45 reviewed.  

Yes the inside Carl Davis Okeh / Epic story is indeed yet to be revealed if ever. Surprised that nothing sweated out...

My hint were always that Carl Davis's ambitions were at that point limited by what Okeh / Epic would provide him with.

Exactly as the bigger article on Carl Davis here explains while at Okeh's. And that he clearly got at Brunswick instantly.

Bringing with him his artists (not Major) to show the world how 'modernizing' their signature would sound even bigger.

[The Yank]

According to Carl Davis' book , "The Man Behind The Music", Carl worked well with Dave Kapralik .Columbia placed OKeh under the supervision of Len Levy and the two of them just couldn't work together. 

[Roburt]

So it seems we've identified why Carl Davis left Okeh and how he came to be at Brunswick, poaching talent from all around Chicago & Detroit to join him in making 'new hits'.

We just have to sort out similar details / reasons for Gene Redd quitting his time with Golden World and his re-emergence on the funky foot @ De Lite. 

Seems none-Motown Detroit recordings had some success after GW was taken over & left the scene, but it never seemed to be on the same scale as it was around 1965/66. Don Davis was still a main player but he was soon recruited by Stax and split his time between Detroit & Memphis (for finished recordings).  Ed Wolfrum @ United Sound Studio, Detroit & Russ Terrana, Jr. @ Terra Shirma Studio, Detroit were both hired to work on Stax's 1969 released 'BOY MEETS GIRL' project. Dale Warren, Johnnie Allen, Rudy Robinson & Pat Lewis also worked on tracks cut for the project. Don Davis overseeing some of the tracks too. After Motown moved to LA & Don Davis hooked up with Stax, a lot less great tracks on Detroit indie labels appeared. Westbound eventually took on a major roll in the city but again, they had left the 60's Detroit sound behind too.

[David Meikle]

Gene Redd was sacked while on the phone in Joanne Bratton's office.

Al Kent mentions it in his book. Page 383.

Anyone else got this book? I really enjoyed it but it came out after I stopped going to Detroit. 

 

 

[David Meikle]

Interesting snippet from Ila Vann about Gene and his sister Sharon.

[David Meikle]

On 12/08/2024 at 10:17, Roburt said:

Thanks for the input.

Is it known if Sonny fell out with the GW management or did he just get a better offer to go to Chicago.

Obviously at that time (late 65 / early 66). lots of Chicago artists were going with a 'Detroit sound', so it only seems sensible that they'd recruit guys who knew how things were done in the Motor city.

And it wasn't just Brunswick acts that were going 'Detroit', Fontella Bass over @ Chess went with the sound too from late summer 65.

Anyone got the full SP of Gene Redd's transition from GW to De-Lite ?

ANOTHER QUESTION: did the Brit soul guys who spent time in Detroit, tracking down the 60's music biz folk there, manage to establish who the producers / arrangers on lots of GW tracks were ?  

Obviously the likes of Sonny Sanders, Gene Redd and others would have been utilised on such duties when working @ GW. 

Paying for all GW's facilities obviously left the company short on cash. I wonder if the volume of 'outside work' that they had been expecting through 1965 didn't actually materialise. Has a full listing of 'outside tracks' cut @ Golden World been compiled ?

ALSO, guess BG would not have been too impressed seeing ads such as the one placed by Roulette in 65...

The penultimate advert should read Mirasound not “Mirror Sound”. Nice photos at this link but sadly no reference to Bob who was highly rated by Mike Mclean of Motown.

https://www.historyofrecording.com/mirasound.html

Edited August 15 by David Meikle
link added

[Peter99]

The information, visuals, and everything else on this thread is so impressive. It's stuff like this, and of course all of the soul sourcers, which make the site what it is.

Essential for soul enthusiasts. Thanks again to everyone who takes the time to contribute and share.

Peter

[Wilxy]

7 hours ago, Roburt said:

So it seems we've identified why Carl Davis left Okeh and how he came to be at Brunswick, poaching talent from all around Chicago & Detroit to join him in making 'new hits'.

We just have to sort out similar details / reasons for Gene Redd quitting his time with Golden World and his re-emergence on the funky foot @ De Lite. 

Seems none-Motown Detroit recordings had some success after GW was taken over & left the scene, but it never seemed to be on the same scale as it was around 1965/66. Don Davis was still a main player but he was soon recruited by Stax and split his time between Detroit & Memphis (for finished recordings).  Ed Wolfrum @ United Sound Studio, Detroit & Russ Terrana, Jr. @ Terra Shirma Studio, Detroit were both hired to work on Stax's 1969 released 'BOY MEETS GIRL' project. Dale Warren, Johnnie Allen, Rudy Robinson & Pat Lewis also worked on tracks cut for the project. Don Davis overseeing some of the tracks too. After Motown moved to LA & Don Davis hooked up with Stax, a lot less great tracks on Detroit indie labels appeared. Westbound eventually took on a major roll in the city but again, they had left the 60's Detroit sound behind too.

I'd be very interested to learn more about the Don Davis material and moreover which of his tracks were recorded where, and furthermore the 1969 Stax project (Boy meets Girl), as this again is a topic that intrigues me, particularly from a collecting perspective. I was under the impression that the Stax/Volt material under the Groovesville "repertoire" was for example recorded at United Sound, but would like any information to either confirm this or otherwise? Similarly those Stax/Volt  releases also recorded at Terra Shirma?

[Roburt]

18 hours ago, Wilxy said:

I'd be very interested to learn more about the Don Davis material and moreover which of his tracks were recorded where, and furthermore the 1969 Stax project (Boy meets Girl), as this again is a topic that intrigues me, particularly from a collecting perspective. I was under the impression that the Stax/Volt material under the Groovesville "repertoire" was for example recorded at United Sound, but would like any information to either confirm this or otherwise? Similarly those Stax/Volt  releases also recorded at Terra Shirma?

I believe the BOY MEETS GIRL project was Stax's way of trying to find male / female duet partnerships ala Otis & Carla, William Bell & Judy Clay ... the tracks were cut at different times (as artists became available) & in different studios. Think backing tracks were mainly done in Detroit, vocal tracks darn souf. I bought the UK single LP when it was issued & didn't realise the US version was a double LP till much later (no tintanet, etc.). Lots of Detroit / Memphis / New York / Chicago stuff from that period (mid 60's to early 70's) is a confusing mix. FOR INSTANCE, Sonny Sanders quit Detroit in November 65 ... BUT ... his name is on the Detroit cut Bobby Williams Sure-Shot 45's from Oct 66 & Feb 67. 

In similar fashion, Gene Redd's name is on the Atco Darrell Bank's 45's issued in March & May 67. After Gene R left Detroit, he was appointed as an A & R guy @ Musicor. He was put on the project to update the Platters sound. No doubt he had a big hand in getting the 'old' backing tracks from Detroit that formed the base of the cuts on the spring 67 album 'GOING BACK TO DETROIT'. 

Edited August 16 by Roburt

[Robbk]

On 09/08/2024 at 09:02, Roburt said:

By the time Ed Wingate was trying to get into the record biz, Berry Gordy had just about hoovered up all the Detroit soul talent (singers, musicians, producers, arrangers, etc). So to make an impact, Wingate needed to bring people in from outside Detroit or find talented locals that Berry had overlooked or discarded.

Motown had 'employed' the likes of George Clinton, Sidney Barnes, Popcorn Wiley and more but had 'discarded' them. Some singers came into town looking for record deals (Edwin Starr for instance), some acts were 'too like' already established Motown acts, so Berry had little interest in them (J J Barnes, Fantastic Four). So they gravitated to GW, but even more talent was needed by Wingate in the early to mid 60's. Ahead of his own studio being finished, some GW recordings were outsourced (some even to New York). In addition to the artists / musicians, talented song writers, arrangers & producers were needed. Some came & stayed (Al Kent) but others came & went (Sonny Sanders, biz veteran Gene Redd, etc.).

By 1966 Wingate was short on cash, so maybe that's why some talented folk left GW and found greener pastures elsewhere. That may explain some departures.

(1) But is the true story behind the growth of GW, the establishment of the company and then it's (2 stage) sale to Motown fully understood and has it been documented properly anywhere ?

JUST LOOKING AT THE FANTASTIC FOUR. They were formed after Motown was getting big hits with numerous artists, so maybe they had no chance of being signed directly by BG. So they went to Golden World and were signed straight up. They were teamed with folk like New York's Gene Redd and eventually enjoyed releases of their own. But as GW wasn't fully formed when they arrived there, it seems they initially helped out on other acts sessions. Singing backing vocals and the like. 

An 'outsider' from another city, with his then group was sent to GW by a guy who knew the team there. They turned up with a couple of songs in their pocket. They 'auditioned' for the guys who happened to be in the GW building on arrival & impressed them enough to be allowed into the studio, They cut their 2 songs + a couple of old standards, with the companies musicians participating plus with vocal help from the Fantastic Four. A New Yorker oversaw the session and was impressed by the results. He took possession of the master tapes & saying he'd get a 45 released, disappeared back off home. 

Things didn't work out between the group, the producer & GW, so those recordings never saw the light of day ... the songs were re-cut and did gain release. However the 'outsider' group never got a copy of their Detroit recordings and never saw the master tape ever again.

This was an everyday occurrence in the record biz back then, not a situation unique to Golden World / Ric Tic. But it just illustrates what did happen back then.

So, back to my initial query -- has the comings & goings at GW been investigated and explained / documented and how badly did this effect the company & it's output. Folk recall things not exactly as they actually happened or their memories are no longer fully accurate. Also points of view differ, so one sides view of what occurred could well be different from the other sides. So lots of work would be necessary to get the full picture. BUT with the long term interest in GW's work, I'm sure much of the info has actually been gathered. 

(2) ALSO anyone know what the ratio between recordings made & recordings released was for them ? (at outfits like Motown -- (quality control & sheer number of tracks cut) -- and Way Out in Cleveland -- (studio being a front for 'other business' & lack of funds to press up many records)  -- we know the tracks that got released were only a fraction of the actual tracks laid down. 

The most comprehensive description of Golden World's history that I can remember seeing is This "Webisode' at Soulful Detroit Forum's Archives' "Tours":

https://soulfuldetroit.com/web07-golden world/golden world story/index.html 

I could add some details based on what documentation I've seen and what I've heard from insiders and Detroiters from the industry, who were around when those events were happening, and were told relevant information or 2nd hand descriptions from insiders, relating to your questions, but I'm very busy right now, working on a few different projects, and already being pulled in too many directions, and at almost 80, it's tough to rustle up the energy for even one task at a time.  So it will be a while before I can get to this.  I've already posted what I know (or, at least, have been told by trusted sources) related to some of your questions , on some previous threads on this forum and on Soulful Detroit.  However, I can't remember, offhand, on which subforum they're located, nor their exact thread titles.  But I do remember that we've discussed these issues before.   

Maybe I can clear some protracted time to post some brief (concise general) descriptions of what I remember within several days from now.  But, maybe someone else here can remember the title of threads here, where we've discussed these questions.

One thing you should remember is that Wingate's and Bratton (Jackson)'s operation was never nearly as large as Motown's, and so, they never had more than a handful of salaried, full-time employees.  Everyone else, including the producers, background singers, songwriters, arrangers, session musicians, etc.  were either ad-hoc workers, or free-lance contractors, paid by the project, or piece-work production or task, or similar basis by contract.  Very few worked full-time and exclusively for GW/Ric-Tic.  Sonny Sanders, Popcorn Wylie, Don Davis, Rich Morris, Richard Parker, Sidney Barnes, George Kerr, Gene Redd, Jr., Joe Hunter, Gil Askey, George Clinton, Freddy Gorman, Mike Terry, Sammy Lowe, Robert Banks, etc. All were free to work on outside projects while working on productions for Wingate (and most of them had other things going throughout their run at GW. 

Sonny Sanders was working with several other Detroit labels early in his GW run.  He DID leave GW in late 1965, when he was offered a full time job with Carl Davis' Chicago Okeh Records office.  But, even then, he probably started working on his first few Okeh productions before leaving Wingate, and was still allowed to finish up his last scheduled sessions with Wingate.  Sanders was still spending ,some time in Detroit even while working in Chicago.  So, he still did some "moonlighting there (maybe mostly on weekends?) 

Barrett Strong started working in Chicago in 1962, and worked with Calvin Carter at VJ, and met Carl Davis while working in Chicago.  Strong had met The Artistics when they'd been appearing at venues shows in which Motown groups were also appearing.  He and their lead singer, Marvin Smith, became good friends, and Strong offered to write several songs for Smith's group.  Davis liked Strong's writing and asst. producing on recording sessions, so he offered him a full-time job with Okeh.

Gene Redd had worked as a songwriter and artist demo producer for Jobete Music's New York office, and so, was a colleague of George Kerr and Sidney Barnes, and George Clinton in that capacity.  Berry Gordy had Kerr & Barnes and Clinton make some trips to Detroit to present songs, record demos, and eventually, after closing down The New York office, asked them to move to Detroit to join Motown's writing and producing staff there.  After several months working for Motown, they became dissatisfied that their songs weren't getting final recording (with "hit treatment", (most songs were just recorded as demos), and any that were final were only given flip side level instrumental mixes.  We can only assume that they decided to leave, to gain more artistic control of their projects, and a better chance to make money.  As they were in Detroit, they must have either come to Ed Wingate's attention, or they went to see him, looking to work for him.  Wingate liked their work and they started working on productions.  George Kerr found a financier in New Jersey to back a new label for him(Maltese), and Wingate allowed them to work out of his office, with Golden World distributing that label, and sharing the publishing when Wingate's own writers or producers were also involved.  Kerr & Barnes and Clinton introduced their Jobete NY colleague, Gene Redd to Wingate, and Wingate made a similar distribution deal with him for his new Stephanye Records, sharing Maltese's office and using Wingate's Myto Music as publisher.  I'd guess that there was no falling out with Wingate.  Kerr, Barnes, Clinton and Redd were forced to leave partnership with Wingate when Gordy bought the recording studio (which included the office space), the contracts of Wingate's artists, publishing company, tape library. And Wingate signed an agreement to not operate a record company in Metro Detroit (or Southern Michigan), causing him to operate his stripped down, tiny, new Ric-Tic operation out of his house, with only a few artists/groups, and to make his new corporate address in Illinois, and record his artists mostly in Chicago. 

So, Redd returned to New York (where he'd never really left), and Clinton joined his former GW colleague, Don Davis at Davis and LeBaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions (Revilot Records), and George Kerr returned to New Jersey (where he'd also never left - just having rented an apartment in Detroit-and commuting between there and New York).

As to the ratio of recordings issued commercially to recordings made, I'd guess a much higher % of Wingate's recordings made were issued than that for Motown.  I don't think we are missing very many that were recorded that were never issued.  I noticed that SOME of the recordings on The Groovesville Masters bootleg tapes sold in The UK during the early 1990s were really Wingate productions, rather than Don Davis' own Groovesville productions.  They were probably taken mostly off acetates, rather than from master tapes.  Many Wingate acetates were left in Studio B when Motown took over, and they were just thrown in with Motown acetates (which is why Stephanye acetates like  "My Kind of Girl" were found in Motown's storage).  I don't think there were more than maybe a small handful of Wingate recordings for which we don't currently have recordings. 

More to come when I get some time.

Edited August 17 by Robbk

[Roburt]

Robb, many thanks for your answer.

As I said in my first post, I'm in touch with an 'outside singer' who was sent to Golden World by a contact back in his home city. That contact then broke off his relationship with GW, so by the time 'my guy' got there, using his 'contacts' name was no longer a help to him. But luckily, he (& his group) had a demo tape with them. Gene Redd bumped into them & intrigued, took them into an office in the building to listen to their tape. He liked what he heard, so took them to meet Ed Wingate. He also liked their stuff (2 self written sings) & arranged for them to have time in the studio. They cut 4 songs & Gene Redd held onto the master tape. He then told 'my guys' that he'd shop their tracks to labels in New York and left, saying he'd be in touch in about a month. Seems Gene Redd (or more likely Ed Wingate) paid the hotel & food bills for the guys while they waited to get into the GW studio; they also never paid for their studio time or the musical / backing singers work ... so I guess the results of their studio session would have been 'owned' by Ed Wingate).

ANYWAY, after the session was over & they returned home, things got complicated & a deal via Golden World or a New York label for the 'GW tape' never materialised. What happened to it, 'my guy' has no idea (they weren't given a copy either). 

ANOTHER QUICK QUESTION ... I guess Wingate always thought he'd hire out time in his new studio & that would bring in fees that would help pay for the facility. He had to sell out to BG, so I have to assume the amount he made from GW / Ric Tic releases & the money he made from outside session fees never met his original expectations. 

To your knowledge, is that so .... I.E. that the 'outside work' the studio got & therefore the fees from hiring out GW studio time wasn't actually as much as Wingate had originally expected ?  

SORRY to be so cryptic in part BUT my article that deals with all these matters isn't finished yet (but will be published in the very near future).

[Robbk]

35 minutes ago, Roburt said:

Robb, many thanks for your answer.

As I said in my first post, I'm in touch with an 'outside singer' who was sent to Golden World by a contact back in his home city. That contact then broke off his relationship with GW, so by the time 'my guy' got there, using his 'contacts' name was no longer a help to him. But luckily, he (& his group) had a demo tape with them. Gene Redd bumped into them & intrigued, took them into an office in the building to listen to their tape. He liked what he heard, so took them to meet Ed Wingate. He also liked their stuff (2 self written sings) & arranged for them to have time in the studio. They cut 4 songs & Gene Redd held onto the master tape. He then told 'my guys' that he'd shop their tracks to labels in New York and left, saying he'd be in touch in about a month. Seems Gene Redd (or more likely Ed Wingate) paid the hotel & food bills for the guys while they waited to get into the GW studio; they also never paid for their studio time or the musical / backing singers work ... so I guess the results of their studio session would have been 'owned' by Ed Wingate).

ANYWAY, after the session was over & they returned home, things got complicated & a deal via Golden World or a New York label for the 'GW tape' never materialised. What happened to it, 'my guy' has no idea (they weren't given a copy either). 

ANOTHER QUICK QUESTION ... I guess Wingate always thought he'd hire out time in his new studio & that would bring in fees that would help pay for the facility. He had to sell out to BG, so I have to assume the amount he made from GW / Ric Tic releases & the money he made from outside session fees never met his original expectations. 

To your knowledge, is that so .... I.E. that the 'outside work' the studio got & therefore the fees from hiring out GW studio time wasn't actually as much as Wingate had originally expected ?  

SORRY to be so cryptic in part BUT my article that deals with all these matters isn't finished yet (but will be published in the very near future).

Ed Wingate owned several hotels, apartment buildings, a few nightclubs, a Taxi cab business, ran numbers game, and  other sources of income.  He was hoping to do really well with Golden World, but didn't need to.  He bought it partly for Joanne's entertainment, and some prestige.  He wasn't making anything like Berry Gordy was with Motown, but Golden World WAS making money.  It was said that his problem was that he had some things go wrong in one of his other businesses and needed a lot of cash right away.  The word got out when he started asking for a big loan.  Gordy jumped on that and offered him an amount he couldn't refuse, to get him out of business as a possible competitor (a Million Dollars was a LOT of money in 1966).  Wingate re-opened Ric-Tic on a VERY small scale, and kept it going another 2 years, but lost interest after that.  He hadn't earned as much as he thought he would renting out studio time.  But that was because his own productions were on a bigger scale than he had planned.  But THAT wasn't the reason he sold out.  He hadn't really failed in that business.  He was progressing towards doing well.  There was only one Motown.  He sold out because of other reasons.  Succeeding in the music business wasn't his great goal in life.  It was just one of many businesses he owned.  IF he became a giant success at it like Berry Gordy did, and very quickly (after just a few years) he'd have been happy.  But he certainly wasn't crushed by failing to do that (unlike Joanne, whose heart and soul was invested in it).  At least my view of it is based on what I heard.  Very early in Tamla's history (1961) when Ed came ton Berry, to get some advice on how to start his new record company, Gordy invited him to come into Motown as a partner.  But Wingate turned down the offer, because he knew both of them were too strong-willed to compromise, and their working together wouldn't work.  That shows me that it being a record company wasn't his dream.  It was just one of many different attempts to make more money.  IF it would make him a millionaire in just a few years... GREAT!  If NOT, he'd move on to trying something else.   If it had been his major goal, he'd have come back with a new record company over and over again after failures (Like Mike Hanks did several times - which only stopped because he got killed).

[Roburt]

Thanks for the reply; very informative as always.

[David Meikle]

4 hours ago, Roburt said:

Thanks for the reply; very informative as always.

So what do you think about Al Kent’s written disclosure that Gene Redd was sacked?

[Robbk]

4 hours ago, David Meikle said:

So what do you think about Al Kent’s written disclosure that Gene Redd was sacked?

I think that could have occurred.  I don't think Al would make that up.  He'd have had to leave because of the sale, anyway.  But that happened, and Wingate didn't like what he did, so that was likely the reason.  Redd had things going in New York that he cared about more.  Redd Coach started up not all that long after, and it must have taken some months of lead time for setting it up.  So, he must have been looking for something that would look more promising than his revenue coming from his Detroit work.

[David Meikle]

Thanks Robb. I was very impressed with Al’s book. His 600 page essay on GW and Ric-Tic will never be beaten.

[Roburt]

ALSO Gene Redd had been appointed an A&R guy by Musicor & put in charge of the 'Platters update' project --  the initial 45 from that was released in February 67 & the album ('Going Back To Detroit') in August 67. Gene still seemed to be involved with GW in 1966 & he must have started work with Musicor in New York before the end of that year. So his sacking / leaving must have been sometime around late summer / fall 1966.

 By 1966 Edwin Starr was just about GW / Ric Tic's top act. He'd been enjoying hit 45's since July 65. So he was in demand for big US package tours. In April 66, Edwin Starr was touring with the Miracles, Contours & Velvelettes. In June66, hen was touring on a package with new Motown act Gladys Knight & Pips. Edwin  undertook a UK tour in October 66. It's said that when he left the US, he was a Ric Tic act but when he returned from his UK tour, he was a Motown act. That tour was organised by Roy Tempest and ran from the 14th to 29th October -- so the sale of GW acts contracts to BG / Motown must have been around that time.   

That would seem to tie in with when Gene Redd 'left' GW.

Edited August 18 by Roburt

[David Meikle]

Thanks Roburt.

If anyone can afford the book again I highly recommend it. Al displays a great sense of humour throughout and also a serious side when it is required.

I will read the book again in the next few weeks.

Price nowadays varies between £65 and £80 pounds but it is more than 600 pages after all.

 

[Robbk]

On 15/08/2024 at 07:59, David Meikle said:

Gene Redd was sacked while on the phone in Joanne Bratton's office.

Al Kent mentions it in his book. Page 383.

Anyone else got this book? I really enjoyed it but it came out after I stopped going to Detroit. 

 

 

I haven't read Al's book.  Did he mention the reason Wingate fired Redd?  It couldn't be just his making an expensive long-distance telephone call on JoAnne's phone.  He must have been talking over a personal deal with a record company in New York (maybe Musicor, or his financier of Redd Coach?) that wouldn't involve Wingate.  Or was it a completely unrelated thing Redd did?  In any case, it must have been a misunderstanding about Redd's relative independence from Wingate's employment of him.  Maybe Ed thought Redd agreed to provide his songwriting and record producing services EXCLUSIVELY to HIS (Wingate's) operations, while Gene assumed that he was still a free agent, who could work on outside projects that wouldn't involve Wingate, as long as he'd fulfill his contract obligations to the latter, (as the written contract probably didn't including wording covering that subject, but Ed thought they had that understanding from their verbal discussions).

Edited August 18 by Robbk

[David Meikle]

Like I said this book is over 600 pages without an index. So this is what I recall without trying to find it again. I know that Al mentions Gene’s departure on Page 383.

BTW the word used was ‘axed’ rather than ‘sacked’. Al does not say why.

However there was a significant build up of comments over a number of chapters which left me to think that Gene was in Joanne’s office rather a lot. The joke in the building was that he seemed to run a lot of errands for her blah blah blah.

So my assumption is that this led to Mr Wingate ending his contract.

I could well be wrong but I think Al was leading the reader in that direction without saying it.

When I read the book again I will report back if my thinking is wrong. However Al definitely says Gene was ‘axed’ while on the phone,

 

 

Edited August 18 by David Meikle

[Wilxy]

Whilst slightly adrift of the topic title, could anyone kindly give any information with regard to my previous Don Davis question  please???

[Robbk]

On 13/08/2024 at 22:59, Roburt said:

Robert Pruter in 'CHICAGO SOUL' writes ... by the time "Dear Lover" was released in February 66 ... Davis credited as producer ... the song was written by Carl Davis and Gerald Sims & arranged by Sonny Sanders, who had recently been brought to Chicago from Detroit. 

Seems he got the release date for "Dear Lover" wrong. It came out at the end of December 65 and was reviewed in the US music press that was published in mid January 66. Mary had signed with Atco around October 65 & I guess it made sense for the label to team her with an ex Detroit guy. So it seems likely that the track was cut in late November / early December 65 and rush released. So it seems Sonny Sanders was working with Carl Davis in Chicago as early as December 65.  

I think Sonny Sanders started working on arrangements in Chicago for Carl Davis at Okeh (Artistics, Major Lance, etc.) BEFORE December 1965, apparently, while he was still working on recordings for Golden World-Ric-Tic, and on other Detroit productions.

[Roburt]

Though De-Lite put out their 1st 45 in October 1967, Gene Redd only seemed to get involved with them from August 69. That was when the 1st Kool & the Gang 45 came out on De-Lite. That 45 had made a very brief appearance on Gene's Red Coach label just before it's De-Lite appearance. 'His' 2nd 45 on De-Lite was the Appointments in October 69.  

As stated earlier, he was involved with the Platters LP (Musicor) in 1967. There were also Detroit related tracks on both the groups 1968 LP (Sweet Sweet Loving) and 1969 LP (I Get The Sweetest Feeling) + a Gene Redd part written song on the later. So I guess Gene Redd was involved with the Platters & Musicor into early 69 at least. Incidentally, Popcorn Wylie & Sonny Sanders oversaw the group's "Sweet Sweet Loving" track (& others).