Eddie Parker....Love you Baby

[Nick Soule]

3 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Picking up on some of the points raised Nick, Archer may have had no connection with Southern Plastics, but Jack Ashford was calling the shots - he opted for Warren McCleallan Evans and Nashville Matrix which was across the road from the Southern Plastics pressing factory. Archer as a small business could not handle large orders of the sort Motown wanted so they went to Southern Plastics - the capacity of Archer was limited and the presses there might not have been able to produce the quantity of records Jack Ashford wanted at a budget price.

Mack Evans or Nashville Record Productions mastered almost every record pressed at Archer from the 60s through the 80s. The relationship with these mastering facilities came from their proximity to Nashville Matrix who plated pretty much every record that Archer pressed. Archer was and still is a one-stop/full-service pressing plant, which includes mastering if needed. Hundreds of Detroit labels took master tapes to Archer in the 60s, who ordered the mastering services for them. It was rare for an independent label to do their own mastering, but if they did, they usually went with a local company like Sound Patterns DXM or GM. 

Again, it is extremely unlikely that Jack Ashford specifically sought out Mack Evans to master this or any other record, but even if he did, the fact that '95' is etched in the runout on both 'ARCHER' stamped and non-stamped copies means that the stampers were ordered by Archer - not Jack, and not Southern Plastics. If Southern Plastics were responsible for any part of the non-stamped copies, there would be either an etched '5' or an SP job number (SP-####) in the runout, which there isn't. 

[Solidsoul]

1 hour ago, Nick Soule said:

I have collected, researched, and documented records pressed at Archer for the last 16 years. I love all things Archer, but you are giving them far too much credit with this idea that they're a meticulous and organized pressing plant that carefully adds an 'ARCHER' stamp to every pressing. Why isn't the stamp on both sides of the Eddie Parker then? Why do records like the Magictones on Westbound 145 exist with an 'ARCHER' stamp on the A-side only on some copies while other copies of the same record have it on the B-side only? Why do records pressed at Archer exist with no 'ARCHER' stamp at all? The Tomangoe's on Washpan is a great example of an Archer pressing with no 'ARCHER' stamp - just the catalog number, a Nashville Matrix stamp, and an etched '95', which again was Archer's exclusive client code with Nashville Matrix that they only added to stampers ordered by and pressed at Archer. 

The theory that Jack Ashford somehow called up Nashville Matrix and the label printer, knew the invoice numbers from the orders Archer placed, and had a set of the stampers and several hundred labels diverted to Southern Plastics to press up a couple hundred 45s to give to an Ashford Records promo rep in the South is just bizarre, sorry. While Archer was a disorganized busy little pressing plant, Southern Plastics was a large plant that did contract work for major labels and was very professional and precise, and they would've added their own identifying marks to anything they pressed, even for a small independent label like Ashford. 

I can accept the possibility that the non-Archer stamped copies are a second run that was pressed within a few months (at most) of the promo and stock 'ARCHER' stamped copies, but I still insist that it's unlikely they weren't pressed concurrently on separate machines without some recollection/story of the original stampers being damaged on the initial run. 

The uneven 'ARCHER' stamp is obviously a bootleg that could've been pressed anywhere.

The 'NSC' marked copies are bootlegs made by Ron Murphy in the 80s and pressed at Archer.  

One of the main reasons for machine stamps is if you get a hit/charting record you can identify bootleg/counterfeits. It's a form of business security.

They didn't need an Archer stamp if it was already Nashville Matrix stamped. The same reason they only needed a Archer stamp on one side of the record to identify their product from a counterfeit. 

It doesn't have to be Southern Plastics, they could have got someone else, at a later date, to press up the second press for a cheaper price. 

I just don't see the point of the Archer plant itself putting stamps on some of the records, but not others, of potentially hit records. 

Edited September 7 by Solidsoul

[Frankie Crocker]

10 minutes ago, Nick Soule said:

Mack Evans or Nashville Record Productions mastered almost every record pressed at Archer from the 60s through the 80s. The relationship with these mastering facilities came from their proximity to Nashville Matrix who plated pretty much every record that Archer pressed. Archer was and still is a one-stop/full-service pressing plant, which includes mastering if needed. Hundreds of Detroit labels took master tapes to Archer in the 60s, who ordered the mastering services for them. It was rare for an independent label to do their own mastering, but if they did, they usually went with a local company like Sound Patterns DXM or GM. 

Again, it is extremely unlikely that Jack Ashford specifically sought out Mack Evans to master this or any other record, but even if he did, the fact that '95' is etched in the runout on both 'ARCHER' stamped and non-stamped copies means that the stampers were ordered by Archer - not Jack, and not Southern Plastics. If Southern Plastics were responsible for any part of the non-stamped copies, there would be either an etched '5' or an SP job number (SP-####) in the runout, which there isn't. 

Your two contributions above Nick are cogently argued to the point that I’m coming around to the view that Archer pressed all the Eddie Parker records, probably in two phases.

You know way more about Archer than I do so it seems pressing variations could well have occurred there. As mentioned above, the Tomangoe’s on Washpan would not need an Archer stamp as it already had Nashville Matrix in the runout.

If indeed all copies of Eddie Parker with the tiny WME etching were pressed at the Archer plant, this would require a re-evaluation of prices for stamped and non-stamped varieties. The story may well boil down to a short press run of white demos plus a few issue samples pressed on one machine with an Archer stamp and a slightly later bulk pressing of issues on another machine without an Archer stamp.

Jack Ashford had great confidence in Eddie Parker and his own label so it’s not surprising he used distributors in Detroit and Chicago. I suspect Nashville played a part in the distribution of the record which has turned up in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Virginia - I’m not convinced sales reps would necessarily travel so far from Detroit and Chicago.

[Nick Soule]

4 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

One of the main reasons for machine stamps is if you get a hit/charting record you can identify bootleg/counterfeits. It's a form of business security.

This is incorrect. Sure, it would help in identifying counterfeits, but for the pressing plants, it was just a way of signing their work. Similar to mastering engineers etching their initials as Mack Evans has done on the Eddie Parker. Pressing plants had no stake in whether or not a record became a hit. They didn't get royalties, they pressed records for a fee and moved on. The types of records that got bootlegged in the 60s were million-sellers on major-ish labels, not the small independent records that Archer was pressing. Some would achieve local hit status, sure, but then the label would either press up another batch at Archer or if it was a bigger hit, license the record to a larger/national label, who would press it elsewhere. 

4 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

They didn't need an Archer stamp if it was already Nashville Matrix stamped. The same reason they only needed a Archer stamp on one side of the record to identify their product from a counterfeit. 

Nashville Matrix plated records for Archer, ARP, Southern Plastics, NRC, Sim's, and multiple other pressing plants and labels around the country. The Nashville Matrix stamp alone is not indicative of any one pressing plant. With the absence of a pressing plant identifier stamp, the only way to tell which pressing plant Nashville Matrix made the stamper for is the client code, which in the Tomangoe's case is '95' for Archer.   

There are also numerous examples of records pressed at Archer with no 'ARCHER' stamp and no Nashville Matrix stamp as well. Take Johnnie Mae Matthews' "I Have No Choice" on Big Hit:

A-side: TZ-105A 95 GM RECORDING DET. MG B
B-side: TX-105B 95 GM RECORDING DET. M.G.B.

The above marks are all etched, it was mastered at GM in Detroit, plated by Nashville Matrix for Archer (95), and pressed at Archer. This is widely known and accepted because of the client code, but by your logic, anyone could bootleg JMM and we would have no idea because there's no stamp. 

4 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

It doesn't have to be Southern Plastics, they could have got someone else, at a later date, to press up the second press for a cheaper price. 

I just don't see the point of the Archer plant itself putting stamps on some of the records, but not others, of potentially hit records. 

Again, you're giving too much credit to Archer in that the presence or lack of an 'ARCHER' stamp is deliberate. As I've already said, the stamps were done by hand in a very busy shop pressing tens of thousands of records every day, and all parts of the pressing process were prone to human error. Have you never encountered a record with labels that were reversed or used the stamper for a completely different record on one side? If you really want to see how disorganized a pressing plant can get, you should look into Apex Pressing in Chicago - the Creations on "ZODICA" is one of my favorite error records. 

Anyway, you've been presented with multiple examples of well-known Archer-pressed records that have a stamp, a varying stamp, or no stamp at all. It's apparent that you own an 'ARCHER' stamped copy and don't want to change your long-held view that your copy is the one, true original. Fine, I've already conceded that it's possible that the non-stamped copies are a close second pressing, but continuing to argue that the non-stamped copies are not Archer pressings without proof is pointless. 

Also, I'm happy to provide you with images of several ARP-pressed records that were both pressed using stampers taken from the same metal mother with the ARP stamp that was added at the pressing plant present on one copy, and absent on the other if necessary to prove that two identical stampers can be made and human error can occur at any pressing plant. ARP was also significantly larger and far more organized than Archer. 

Edited September 7 by Nick Soule

[Roburt]

As stated earlier, back when we're talking about (68/69), pressing plant work ramped up well ahead of the pre-Christmas selling surge. Most plants were working to capacity in the mid to late 60's from September through to early December. I have no idea what the % increase was of this 'Xmas surge', maybe others on here do.

But, I guess it's safe to say that the initial Eddie Parker press would have been undertaken during this time of the year (Sept/Oct/Nov 68). It's stated quite a few times in mags such as Billboard / Cashbox, etc that many pressing plants were turning away business in September / October / November as they already had more work than they could cope with.

Ashford Records were very small fry BUT they were 'local' to Archer. Maybe Archer completed a 'small order' of 45's in the period ahead of Christmas but did the main pressing run after Xmas (say in Feb 69). No doubt, some orders they'd taken that were due for delivery just ahead of Xmas would have been delayed. So some of these wouldn't actually have been pressed up & delivered until January. That would seem a logical explanation to me if all the Eddie Parker 45's were all made by Archer. A 'time delay' could also be a reason for differences in the look of some of these singles. 

A 45 put out on a small label (like the Precisions "If This Is Love" say) could suddenly become a big hit -- the Precisions 45 being released in Aug 67 with a smallish pressing run (say 1000 copies), making first the local & then the national charts some weeks later (Sept / Oct in this case). Drew Records would have been scrambling about to get the necessary additional copies made asap -- during the time period that was the start of that years Xmas surge in the pressing business. So no doubt, they'd have gone to any pressing plant that could service their order.

BUT as we all know, the Ashford 45 wasn't a hit and so that scenario didn't apply in this case. 

[Frankie Crocker]

20 hours ago, Roburt said:

As stated earlier, back when we're talking about (68/69), pressing plant work ramped up well ahead of the pre-Christmas selling surge. Most plants were working to capacity in the mid to late 60's from September through to early December. I have no idea what the % increase was of this 'Xmas surge', maybe others on here do.

But, I guess it's safe to say that the initial Eddie Parker press would have been undertaken during this time of the year (Sept/Oct/Nov 68). It's stated quite a few times in mags such as Billboard / Cashbox, etc that many pressing plants were turning away business in September / October / November as they already had more work than they could cope with.

Ashford Records were very small fry BUT they were 'local' to Archer. Maybe Archer completed a 'small order' of 45's in the period ahead of Christmas but did the main pressing run after Xmas (say in Feb 69). No doubt, some orders they'd taken that were due for delivery just ahead of Xmas would have been delayed. So some of these wouldn't actually have been pressed up & delivered until January. That would seem a logical explanation to me if all the Eddie Parker 45's were all made by Archer. A 'time delay' could also be a reason for differences in the look of some of these singles. 

A 45 put out on a small label (like the Precisions "If This Is Love" say) could suddenly become a big hit -- the Precisions 45 being released in Aug 67 with a smallish pressing run (say 1000 copies), making first the local & then the national charts some weeks later (Sept / Oct in this case). Drew Records would have been scrambling about to get the necessary additional copies made asap -- during the time period that was the start of that years Xmas surge in the pressing business. So no doubt, they'd have gone to any pressing plant that could service their order.

BUT as we all know, the Ashford 45 wasn't a hit and so that scenario didn't apply in this case. 

 Thanks for further clarification Rob. Keith Rylatt in his Groovesville USA book noted that the Ashford record was a ‘local hit’ in Detroit but the signs are that it did not sell in large quantities.

Your reference to pressing plants at Christmas makes a lot of sense. Archer being a small outfit could easily cater for Jack Ashford’s white demo request prior to Christmas - this rarity produced largely for Detroit and Michigan outlets was probably pressed up in a quantity of 100 - 200 records. The bulk press of perhaps a few thousand probably happened in January 1969 judging from the earliest dates hand written on sales reps’ samples. Most importantly, Christmas could be the main reason for the legendary’ second issue’ assertion that has been presented to collectors for 50 years.

Given the copyright date for ‘Love You Baby’ is 14th October 1968, Archer probably pressed the initial run in November or December, allowing for the preparatory work to be done in Nashville.

Edited September 8 by Frankie Crocker
typo

[Solidsoul]

18 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

This is incorrect. Sure, it would help in identifying counterfeits, but for the pressing plants, it was just a way of signing their work. Similar to mastering engineers etching their initials as Mack Evans has done on the Eddie Parker. Pressing plants had no stake in whether or not a record became a hit. They didn't get royalties, they pressed records for a fee and moved on. The types of records that got bootlegged in the 60s were million-sellers on major-ish labels, not the small independent records that Archer was pressing. Some would achieve local hit status, sure, but then the label would either press up another batch at Archer or if it was a bigger hit, license the record to a larger/national label, who would press it elsewhere. 

Nashville Matrix plated records for Archer, ARP, Southern Plastics, NRC, Sim's, and multiple other pressing plants and labels around the country. The Nashville Matrix stamp alone is not indicative of any one pressing plant. With the absence of a pressing plant identifier stamp, the only way to tell which pressing plant Nashville Matrix made the stamper for is the client code, which in the Tomangoe's case is '95' for Archer.   

There are also numerous examples of records pressed at Archer with no 'ARCHER' stamp and no Nashville Matrix stamp as well. Take Johnnie Mae Matthews' "I Have No Choice" on Big Hit:

A-side: TZ-105A 95 GM RECORDING DET. MG B
B-side: TX-105B 95 GM RECORDING DET. M.G.B.

The above marks are all etched, it was mastered at GM in Detroit, plated by Nashville Matrix for Archer (95), and pressed at Archer. This is widely known and accepted because of the client code, but by your logic, anyone could bootleg JMM and we would have no idea because there's no stamp. 

Again, you're giving too much credit to Archer in that the presence or lack of an 'ARCHER' stamp is deliberate. As I've already said, the stamps were done by hand in a very busy shop pressing tens of thousands of records every day, and all parts of the pressing process were prone to human error. Have you never encountered a record with labels that were reversed or used the stamper for a completely different record on one side? If you really want to see how disorganized a pressing plant can get, you should look into Apex Pressing in Chicago - the Creations on "ZODICA" is one of my favorite error records. 

Anyway, you've been presented with multiple examples of well-known Archer-pressed records that have a stamp, a varying stamp, or no stamp at all. It's apparent that you own an 'ARCHER' stamped copy and don't want to change your long-held view that your copy is the one, true original. Fine, I've already conceded that it's possible that the non-stamped copies are a close second pressing, but continuing to argue that the non-stamped copies are not Archer pressings without proof is pointless. 

Also, I'm happy to provide you with images of several ARP-pressed records that were both pressed using stampers taken from the same metal mother with the ARP stamp that was added at the pressing plant present on one copy, and absent on the other if necessary to prove that two identical stampers can be made and human error can occur at any pressing plant. ARP was also significantly larger and far more organized than Archer. 

You're right when you say I can't prove it, and you have more facts and figures, but in the end you are still patching it together like everyone else.

You are quick to dismiss the vinyl profile angle as another pressing machine, but when the same things keep happening again and again, there is a patten emerging regarding the Archer stamp and the vinyl profile. Before you say it's just another machine, that is just a guess and doesn't fit with what I am seeing.

I still think that Archer may have been subcontracting  work out to others. 

I can't prove it, so I will have to leave it for now.

All the comments on this thread are really useful and all help patch this piece of history together. I am finding it interesting reading.

 

Edited September 8 by Solidsoul

[Nick Soule]

8 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

You are quick to dismiss the vinyl profile angle as another pressing machine, but when the same things keep happening again and again, there is a patten emerging regarding the Archer stamp and the vinyl profile. Before you say it's just another machine, that is just a guess and doesn't fit with what I am seeing.

My copy of the Four Sonics on Sepia with no 'ARCHER' stamp came from a 100-count box that was sent to a distributor from Archer...

I don't know what else I can say or do short of inventing a time machine to help you understand that Archer had multiple pressing machines, added the stamp by hand, and would press larger orders concurrently on different machines.

[Mithras]

The BIG PROBLEM

                                     at the time of the torch? bletsoe time... it you could buy this 45 for a £1  who looked a pressing marks? most people were looking something begining with Blue? why would you boot  a record In USA  with a pressing mark that nobody was interested in? (SO CALLED BOOT) best i got for the so called early press was at  Howard Mallet was £3    however  has anybody thought as  I am from the Print Industry at the time of leter press ? LETTER PRESS, BEST THEY COULD DO ON THE DAY   , If  so called archer press is a boot boot why bother ?  I have one  the sound quality's fine do you play it no  NEVER BIG after torch then Loraine Chandler ? at cleethorpes  was there.....  the point is why boot a record with an archer  stamp?????  could they be real?????? this is a thread that fucks my mind everything is passed down by conversation but who knows?

 

 

[Frankie Crocker]

30 minutes ago, Mithras said:

The BIG PROBLEM

                                     at the time of the torch? bletsoe time... it you could buy this 45 for a £1  who looked a pressing marks? most people were looking something begining with Blue? why would you boot  a record In USA  with a pressing mark that nobody was interested in? (SO CALLED BOOT) best i got for the so called early press was at  Howard Mallet was £3    however  has anybody thought as  I am from the Print Industry at the time of leter press ? LETTER PRESS, BEST THEY COULD DO ON THE DAY   , If  so called archer press is a boot boot why bother ?  I have one  the sound quality's fine do you play it no  NEVER BIG after torch then Loraine Chandler ? at cleethorpes  was there.....  the point is why boot a record with an archer  stamp?????  could they be real?????? this is a thread that fucks my mind everything is passed down by conversation but who knows?

 

 

Eddie Parker was revived after the Torch era - it was huge at Wigan. The small uneven Archer stamped release was bootlegged for the Wigan masses. By then, word was out that originals had a large even Archer stamp. True, back in the day, most of us unthinkingly ignored matrix markings to just acquire the sound. There’s enough info in this thread now to set the record straight and keep the door open for additions.

[Peter99]

So, for a simpleton such as me, is it correct to say that the debate is about;

1. There is a real demo

2. There is a real issue

3. There is a boot

Peter

[Shinehead]

42 minutes ago, Peter99 said:

So, for a simpleton such as me, is it correct to say that the debate is about;

1. There is a real demo

2. There is a real issue

3. There is a boot

Peter

Possibly, maybe, who knows. 

Edited September 8 by Shinehead

[Mithras]

2 hours ago, Mithras said:

The BIG PROBLEM

                                     at the time of the torch? bletsoe time... it you could buy this 45 for a £1  who looked a pressing marks? most people were looking something begining with Blue? why would you boot  a record In USA  with a pressing mark that nobody was interested in? (SO CALLED BOOT) best i got for the so called early press was at  Howard Mallet was £3    however  has anybody thought as  I am from the Print Industry at the time of leter press ? LETTER PRESS, BEST THEY COULD DO ON THE DAY   , If  so called archer press is a boot boot why bother ?  I have one  the sound quality's fine do you play it no  NEVER BIG after torch then Loraine Chandler ? at cleethorpes  was there.....  the point is why boot a record with an archer  stamp?????  could they be real?????? this is a thread that fucks my mind everything is passed down by conversation but who knows?

 

 

 

[Jimmy Mack]

This is my copy bought back in the day. 

[Theothertosspot]

4 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Eddie Parker was revived after the Torch era - it was huge at Wigan. The small uneven Archer stamped release was bootlegged for the Wigan masses. By then, word was out that originals had a large even Archer stamp. True, back in the day, most of us unthinkingly ignored matrix markings to just acquire the sound. There’s enough info in this thread now to set the record straight and keep the door open for additions.

Is (was) it not DE favourite record of all time, adopted it as his greatest! 

[Solidsoul]

20 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

My copy of the Four Sonics on Sepia with no 'ARCHER' stamp came from a 100-count box that was sent to a distributor from Archer...

I don't know what else I can say or do short of inventing a time machine to help you understand that Archer had multiple pressing machines, added the stamp by hand, and would press larger orders concurrently on different machines.

I don't need a time machine to spot an Archer pressed record.  All the large Archer stamped records I have looked at, have a nice finished outside tapered edge to the record. This chamfered or tapered edge makes the outside edge of the record quite sharp. When I look at a lot of Nashville Matrix 95 records they don't have the typical Archer type nice outside edge taper. The outside run-in groove is flat to the outside edge with no taper/ chamfer.  

When I look at Archer stamped records like Doni Burdick, Four Tracks, Mighty Lovers, Eddie Parker, Westbound records etc. All have the sharp outside edge tapered run-in groove.

You mention The Four Sonics on Sepia. The large Archer stamped copies have the nice outside edge taper, typical of a in-house stamped Archer pressed record, but the non,-stamped Sepia has just the flat edge run-in groove. A lot of Mary Jane records have the Nashville Mains 95 stamp, but don't have the typical tapered Archer run- in groove, it's just a flat run-in groove to the outside edge.

Sometimes like Betty Lloyd on BSC there is no Archer stamp, just the Nashville Matrix, but that looks like a Archer in-house pressing because it has the typical tapered Archer outside edge profile.

All this leads me to think Archer Stamped records are done at their factory and some non-Archer Nashville Matrix 95 stamped records with the good outside tapered edge are pressed at Archers factory.  Copies without the stamp and high quality tapered run-in profile, and just have the flat edge are maybe the product of a sub- contractor for Archer, or for some reason made by them to a lesser quality finished item.

Maybe it is just another machine, but this happens time and again. It must require different mother/pressing plates for the different outside edge profiles! It is hard to work out why it would be done.

Edited September 9 by Solidsoul

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Solidsoul said:

I don't need a time machine to spot an Archer pressed record, I just need to see the vinyl. You're making me to go into fine details on this.

All the large Archer stamped records, I have looked at, have a nice finished outside tapered edge to the record. This chamfered or tapered edge makes the outside edge of the record quite sharp. When I look at a lot of Nashville Matrix 95 records they don't have the typical Archer type nice outside edge taper. The outside run-in groove is flat to the outside edge with no taper/ chamfer.  

Have a look at Archer stamped records like Doni Burdick, Four Tracks, Mighty Lovers, Eddie Parker, Westbound records etc. All have the outside edge tapered run-in groove.

You mention The Four Sonics on Sepia. The large Archer stamped copies have the nice outside edge taper, typical of a in-house stamped Archer pressed record, but the non,-stamped Sepia has just the flat edge run-in groove. A lot of Mary Jane records have the Nashville Mains 95 stamp, but don't have the typical tapered Archer run- in groove, it's just a flat run-in groove to the outside edge.

Sometimes like Betty Lloyd on BSC there is no Archer stamp, just the Nashville Matrix, but that is an Archer in-house pressing because it has the typical tapered Archer outside edge profile.

All this leads me go think Archer Stamped records are done at their factory and some non-Archer (Nashville Matrix 95) stamped records with the good outside tapered edge are pressed at Archer , but the copies without the high quality tapered run-in profile and just have the flat edge are the product of a sub- contractor for Archer.

You may say it's just another machine, but this is a pattern that happens time and again. It must require different mother/pressing plates for the different outside edge profiles!

You are assuming that all their presses are exactly the same, with the same trimming tool which is highly unlikely.  Even if the same make and model they would likely have their own traits. I would image the outside edge profile would be formed with the trimming tool. 

[Solidsoul]

5 hours ago, Chalky said:

You are assuming that all their presses are exactly the same, with the same trimming tool which is highly unlikely.  Even if the same make and model they would likely have their own traits. I would image the outside edge profile would be formed with the trimming tool. 

 

It's a good point about the trimming tool but I think probably the trimming tool would only trim excess vinyl, not form part of the pressing groove/profile. 

The outside run-in taper/chamfer is formed by the pressing plate, as it's part of the run-in groove.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9 by Solidsoul

[Nick Soule]

4 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

I don't need a time machine to spot an Archer pressed record, I just need to see the vinyl.

All the large Archer stamped records, I have looked at, have a nice finished outside tapered edge to the record. This chamfered or tapered edge makes the outside edge of the record quite sharp. When I look at a lot of Nashville Matrix 95 records they don't have the typical Archer type nice outside edge taper. The outside run-in groove is flat to the outside edge with no taper/ chamfer.  

When I look at Archer stamped records like Doni Burdick, Four Tracks, Mighty Lovers, Eddie Parker, Westbound records etc. All have the outside edge tapered run-in groove.

You mention The Four Sonics on Sepia. The large Archer stamped copies have the nice outside edge taper, typical of a in-house stamped Archer pressed record, but the non,-stamped Sepia has just the flat edge run-in groove. A lot of Mary Jane records have the Nashville Mains 95 stamp, but don't have the typical tapered Archer run- in groove, it's just a flat run-in groove to the outside edge.

Sometimes like Betty Lloyd on BSC there is no Archer stamp, just the Nashville Matrix, but that looks like a Archer in-house pressing because it has the typical tapered Archer outside edge profile.

All this leads me go think Archer Stamped records are done at their factory and some non-Archer (Nashville Matrix 95) stamped records with the good outside tapered edge are pressed at Archer , but the copies without the high quality tapered run-in profile and just have the flat edge are the product of a sub- contractor for Archer, or for some reason made by them to a lesser quality finished item.

Maybe it is just another machine, but this happens time and again. It must require different mother/pressing plates for the different outside edge profiles!

I understand what you're saying about tapered vs. flat edges, but it took me almost no time to find several examples that go against your theory:

• Mad Dog & The Pups "Hep Squeeze" on Magic City 007 has no Archer stamp, but has a tapered edge
• Gino Washington "I'll Be Around..." on Atac 7823 (red/white label) has an Archer stamp, but has a flat edge

I even found an example where the edge differs despite both promo and stock copies having the Archer stamp:

• The Superlatives "I Don't Know How..." Dynamics 1016 (WLP) has an Archer stamp, and has a tapered edge
• The Superlatives "I Don't Know How..." Dynamics 1016 (Stock) has an Archer stamp, but has a flat edge

The Superlatives is also a great example because it's the original run with the shorter title before the larger repress where they added "Don't Walk Away..." to the title, so it would've been made at the same time as the promo before it became a local hit, got reissued, and eventually leased to Westbound.

The differences you're seeing regarding the edges are simply from the different record pressing machines Archer had and used as @Chalky correctly stated. And all of your above-mentioned records were pressed at Archer.

Archer was and still is cheaper than any other plants within a reasonable distance from Detroit. They would've been operating at a loss if they had to mail stampers to another plant, have them press the record, and then get the records mailed records back. They would also be liable for the quality of those pressings, which would likely be pretty poor if they were able to find a plant cheaper than themselves. And if they did, you would see an identifier from the other plant in the runout. 

[Roburt]

I presume everyone having their say on the minutiae of things relating to this thread has watched the Archer Plant video about how they made their records (it's up on youtube -- GO INSIDE ARCHER RECORD PRESSING).

Edited September 9 by Roburt

[Solidsoul]

2 hours ago, Nick Soule said:

I understand what you're saying about tapered vs. flat edges, but it took me almost no time to find several examples that go against your theory:

• Mad Dog & The Pups "Hep Squeeze" on Magic City 007 has no Archer stamp, but has a tapered edge
• Gino Washington "I'll Be Around..." on Atac 7823 (red/white label) has an Archer stamp, but has a flat edge

I even found an example where the edge differs despite both promo and stock copies having the Archer stamp:

• The Superlatives "I Don't Know How..." Dynamics 1016 (WLP) has an Archer stamp, and has a tapered edge
• The Superlatives "I Don't Know How..." Dynamics 1016 (Stock) has an Archer stamp, but has a flat edge

The Superlatives is also a great example because it's the original run with the shorter title before the larger repress where they added "Don't Walk Away..." to the title, so it would've been made at the same time as the promo before it became a local hit, got reissued, and eventually leased to Westbound.

The differences you're seeing regarding the edges are simply from the different record pressing machines Archer had and used as @Chalky correctly stated. And all of your above-mentioned records were pressed at Archer.

Archer was and still is cheaper than any other plants within a reasonable distance from Detroit. They would've been operating at a loss if they had to mail stampers to another plant, have them press the record, and then get the records mailed records back. They would also be liable for the quality of those pressings, which would likely be pretty poor if they were able to find a plant cheaper than themselves. And if they did, you would see an identifier from the other plant in the runout. 

Oh well, it looks like my theory didn't hold water.  I will just have to be happy I have large Archer stamped copies of Eddie Parker and The Four Sonics, among others.

Edited September 9 by Solidsoul

[Chalky]

I think there is enough to suggest all presses were done at Archer, especially with what @Nick Soule has given us with his years of research.  Unless some irrefutable evidence comes to light to suggest otherwise I will not think any different.

[Frankie Crocker]

2 hours ago, Chalky said:

I think there is enough to suggest all presses were done at Archer, especially with what @Nick Soule has given us with his years of research.  Unless some irrefutable evidence comes to light to suggest otherwise I will not think any different.

Spot on Chalky. Nick’s contribution has certainly elucidated matters. The Archer discography early in the thread is hopelessly out of date. As it now looks like Mack Evans mastered the Archer and missing-Archer issues, collectors can be confident they own bona fide originals. The few fortunate owners of an Archer stamped issue can be satisfied their copies came off the machine used, probably as part of a small sample, maybe even to round up the number of white demos done QED. Since this thread was started, some collectors have put their missing-Archer stamp copies up for sale, cashing in as it were…my advice would be to keep these in the absence of any Archer stamped issues coming up for sale. As it was myself who contended that Eddie Parker may well have been pressed in Nashville, I am content to dismiss this notion on the basis of what Nick has said.

[Dylan]

Yes some excellent input from Nick just sad that as time goes on this detail and the people pushing to find it will reduce