Roburt Posted July 5 Posted July 5 (edited) We all know that most UK 60's beat groups got their start by covering US R&B / soul hits both in their stage shows & on record. BBC radio didn't help much as they didn't have much 'needle time' allowance, so featured live sets on many shows -- these being by the beat groups doing covers. When BBC radio did play records, they seemed to favour the UK cover versions over the US originals. Thus for an American R&B / soul hit to make the UK charts it had to become a big club sound (ahead of the pirates hitting the airways). BUT things weren't too different in the US. A soul act who had a hit on their hands would be added to a soul revue package that would play many of the venues on the chitlin circuit. But, most of the chitlin circuit venues were in the northern states , California or down the US east coast (Boston, New York, Philly, Baltimore, DC, Norfolk, etc). In more rural areas, fans hardly ever got to see the acts who were having hits. That's one reason why in states such as Texas, lots of fake groups would play out-of-the-way venues (the Masqueraders took their name coz they had participated in such ruses in their early days). Fake versions of Archie Bell & the Drells did gigs all over when Archie was overseas in the forces. Miami was also a bit far for lots of acts to travel, so Florida had it's fair share of 'fakes' doing gigs. However, dishing up versions of national hits for local punters wasn't just left to 'fakes'. Most locally based groups were playing R&B / soul sets on their live gigs in the 60's as this is what the audiences wanted. Many local groups started out as pure cover bands & as their musical skills improved, they would start to introduce original songs in their acts and this would lead to them getting to record those tunes. Sometimes though, a national hit would become so popular when performed by a local act that they'd be given the chance to record their version of the song. An example of this was Edwin Starr's initial 45 release/ hit -- "Agent 00 Soul". His 45 was released in June 65 and (though it was on a small Detroit label) it took off quickly. From initial plays on Detroit radio stns, it was soon getting airplay all over. Golden World could see they had a big hit on their hands, so they started placing ads in the big US music mags and doing promotional work over a large geographic area. In no time the 45 was on radio stn charts in many parts of the US. Initially it was the R&B stations where it did well, but as it's popularity continued to spread, it started getting on pop station's charts too. The 45 was on R&B radio stn charts in the northern US cities by late June 65, it then slowly extended it's reach and by early August it was getting extensive radio exposure over a wide area. It would climb the charts in say Cleveland, that fact would be reported and DJ's in other cities would pick it up and start giving it plays. So while it's peak popularity may have passed in Detroit, Chicago & Cleveland by mid August, in other cities it would still be climbing the local charts. By September it was doing well in enough areas to figure on the national R&B charts, just weeks later it was climbing the national pop charts. One area where it was slow to catch on (almost certainly due to a lack of copies reaching the area) was Louisiana. It initially took off in New Orleans and was charting there by October. It also made it out to more rural areas of the state, with DJ's like Paul Thibeaux spinning it on KVOL. With "Agent 00 Soul" filling the airwaves in the region, many local acts started including it in their live shows. It became so popular for some acts that they were even asked to record their versions of it. Thus US cover versions of Edwin's first release made it onto US record store shelves. P.S. . . . though it was a massive US hit, that success didn't lead to much international interest. It did escape on Reo in Canada but then Detroit radio stn signals reached deep into Canada & many local music fans would tune into Detroit radio stns rather than their own local enterprises. The odd Canadian stn had a large audience in their own rights -- Windsor based CKLW being one example. So most 45's that had been big in Detroit would get a Canadian release. Edwin's record failed to attract much interest from UK / European based labels, an omission that would soon be remedied. BUT BACK TO LOUISIANA & THE US -- the impact "Agent 00 Soul" had there was extensive ... Edited July 5 by Roburt 2 1
Roburt Posted July 5 Author Posted July 5 Late August 65 & "Agent 00 Soul" was climbing the national R&B charts in the US .... 1
Roburt Posted July 5 Author Posted July 5 (edited) Edwin's Ric Tic 45 was the first big seller on the label ( I think -- could any Detroit experts put me right if that ain't so) ... so the label took a few weeks to 'break' the 45. For that reason, the Canadian version of the single didn't escape till that August (after it had established a US profile). Copies of Edwin's US 45 must have found their way to the UK by that August too ... as Scottish blues / soul singer Alex Harvey cut a version for UK Fontana release and that escaped here at the start of September (65). With the songs US / Canadian & UK profiles, I'm surprised a UK label didn't try to do a licensing deal with Ric Tic / Golden World back then. Alex Harvey had a decent UK club / record profile back then and it seems he got to perform the song on a prime time UK TV show (no doubt just miming to the record). That video doesn't seem to have survived. A US TV clip of a different version has survived though ... Yet another US cover version came out in January 66 on Command (by Dick Hyman; an organ instro version). Edited July 5 by Roburt 1
Roburt Posted July 5 Author Posted July 5 (edited) Just ahead of Edwin signing with Ric Tic / Golden World, he was still gigging as the male singer with Bill Doggett's band. It was Bill's refusal to help Edwin record "OO Soul" that led him to quit the band and go solo. When his 45 hit big, Edwin had to head straight back to Cleveland (where he still knew many musicians) to hire the guys that became his backing band ... His first REALLY BIG live shows were @ the Harlem Apollo in late August 65 (a week's engagement). Others on the bill with him were Jerry Butler, Staples Singers, Gladys Knight & Pips, Jamo Thomas & Royalettes. Meanwhile, Alex Harvey was over in the UK doing club gigs & performing "OO Soul" live ... Edited July 5 by Roburt
Peter99 Posted July 5 Posted July 5 12 hours ago, Roburt said: We all know that most UK 60's beat groups got their start by covering US R&B / soul hits both in their stage shows & on record. BBC radio didn't help much as they didn't have much 'needle time' allowance, so featured live sets on many shows -- these being by the beat groups doing covers. When BBC radio did play records, they seemed to favour the UK cover versions over the US originals. Thus for an American R&B / soul hit to make the UK charts it had to become a big club sound (ahead of the pirates hitting the airways). BUT things weren't too different in the US. A soul act who had a hit on their hands would be added to a soul revue package that would play many of the venues on the chitlin circuit. But, most of the chitlin circuit venues were in the northern states , California or down the US east coast (Boston, New York, Philly, Baltimore, DC, Norfolk, etc). In more rural areas, fans hardly ever got to see the acts who were having hits. That's one reason why in states such as Texas, lots of fake groups would play out-of-the-way venues (the Masqueraders took their name coz they had participated in such ruses in their early days). Fake versions of Archie Bell & the Drells did gigs all over when Archie was overseas in the forces. Miami was also a bit far for lots of acts to travel, so Florida had it's fair share of 'fakes' doing gigs. However, dishing up versions of national hits for local punters wasn't just left to 'fakes'. Most locally based groups were playing R&B / soul sets on their live gigs in the 60's as this is what the audiences wanted. Many local groups started out as pure cover bands & as their musical skills improved, they would start to introduce original songs in their acts and this would lead to them getting to record those tunes. Sometimes though, a national hit would become so popular when performed by a local act that they'd be given the chance to record their version of the song. An example of this was Edwin Starr's initial 45 release/ hit -- "Agent 00 Soul". His 45 was released in June 65 and (though it was on a small Detroit label) it took off quickly. From initial plays on Detroit radio stns, it was soon getting airplay all over. Golden World could see they had a big hit on their hands, so they started placing ads in the big US music mags and doing promotional work over a large geographic area. In no time the 45 was on radio stn charts in many parts of the US. Initially it was the R&B stations where it did well, but as it's popularity continued to spread, it started getting on pop station's charts too. The 45 was on R&B radio stn charts in the northern US cities by late June 65, it then slowly extended it's reach and by early August it was getting extensive radio exposure over a wide area. It would climb the charts in say Cleveland, that fact would be reported and DJ's in other cities would pick it up and start giving it plays. So while it's peak popularity may have passed in Detroit, Chicago & Cleveland by mid August, in other cities it would still be climbing the local charts. By September it was doing well in enough areas to figure on the national R&B charts, just weeks later it was climbing the national pop charts. One area where it was slow to catch on (almost certainly due to a lack of copies reaching the area) was Louisiana. It initially took off in New Orleans and was charting there by October. It also made it out to more rural areas of the state, with DJ's like Paul Thibeaux spinning it on KVOL. With "Agent 00 Soul" filling the airwaves in the region, many local acts started including it in their live shows. It became so popular for some acts that they were even asked to record their versions of it. Thus US cover versions of Edwin's first release made it onto US record store shelves. P.S. . . . though it was a massive US hit, that success didn't lead to much international interest. It did escape on Reo in Canada but then Detroit radio stn signals reached deep into Canada & many local music fans would tune into Detroit radio stns rather than their own local enterprises. The odd Canadian stn had a large audience in their own rights -- Windsor based CKLW being one example. So most 45's that had been big in Detroit would get a Canadian release. Edwin's record failed to attract much interest from UK / European based labels, an omission that would soon be remedied. BUT BACK TO LOUISIANA & THE US -- the impact "Agent 00 Soul" had there was extensive ... Wow! Some work has gone into producing that introductory and opening post; thanks Roburt. Very interesting. Peter 2
The Yank Posted July 5 Posted July 5 Billy Larkin and the Delegates also covered the song which appeared on his "Hole In The Wall" album and as a Little LP- 2
Codehound Posted July 6 Posted July 6 (edited) Roburt, that's some knowledge you have there. Had to read it twice as it was too much for my wasted braincells to cope with. Thanks for a proper schooling, in the nicest possible way. Edited July 6 by codehound
Popular Post Roburt Posted July 7 Author Popular Post Posted July 7 (edited) On 05/07/2024 at 22:31, Peter99 said: Wow! Some work has gone into producing that introductory and opening post; thanks Roburt. Very interesting. Peter I write for a soul music mag at present -- S U Nth (& for others in the past), so my pieces can be very WORDY (sorry). But finding obscure soul facts is my passion. Ady C refers to me as a soul sleuth. I did this research as a 'side issue' to the latest article I'm preparing. At first, I thought I'd just dump all the facts (as only some are relevant to my actual article). But then I decided to write it all up as a short piece to post on here. It's hard too see the details in my pics above, so I've split the big one in two ... Lots of other tracks have received similar treatment down the years but Edwin's initial 45 and the way it's popularity spread out from Detroit to influence other artists seemed just about the ideal example to use (IMHO). Edited July 7 by Roburt 4
Hooker1951 Posted July 7 Posted July 7 Great thread from Roburt there, Yes most Beat groups British and Irish included in their sets Soul and RnB that they had heard from the USA , and when the ones that recorded made it famous or semi famous a lot of their B sides or early LP tracks were cover versions of USA artists, I Seen a lot of British Artists perform live in the early and mid to late 60,s and most did versions of the originals and like Roburt says the American bands that toured headlining and backing bigger Artists always played their version of the Originals , Some did pretty good versions and put their own stamp on it when they were playing live, ML
Roburt Posted July 7 Author Posted July 7 (edited) The UK recorded version of 00 SOUL ... when acts would perform songs live back then, they'd up the tempo to increase the energy of their shows. I guess Alex Harvey would have done this in his live shows ahead of recording the song, hence it being a more uptempo version than the original ... SPEAKING OF WHICH ... Edited July 7 by Roburt 2
Roburt Posted July 7 Author Posted July 7 (edited) Middle of July 1965 ... Detroit radio Stn WCHB's chart ... just a couple of weeks after it had been issued, Edwin's 45 was already shooting up their Top 20 Edited July 7 by Roburt
The Yank Posted July 7 Posted July 7 "Agent..." also took off big in Cleveland hitting their Top 20 even earlier - 1
Blackpoolsoul Posted July 8 Posted July 8 14 hours ago, Roburt said: Middle of July 1965 ... Detroit radio Stn WCHB's chart ... just a couple of weeks after it had been issued, Edwin's 45 was already shooting up their Top 20 It was only 2 weeks ago that Elsie told me Pat Lewis and The Debonaires (Joyce Vincent , Elsie Baker And Dorothy Garland) were the backing on Agent, recorded @ Golden World Studios
Roburt Posted July 8 Author Posted July 8 13 hours ago, The Yank said: "Agent..." also took off big in Cleveland hitting their Top 20 even earlier - Edwin's 45 took off quickly in Cleveland coz he was from there. The local radio DJ's knew him, lots of the record buying public knew of him (from the days he led a group there & from his work as the male singer with Bill Doggett), so I would guess they were hammering it from the first day they got a copy of it.
Roburt Posted July 8 Author Posted July 8 (edited) In contrast to Cleveland & Detroit ... Edwin's 45 was new to this Miami pop stn's chart in mid September (@ #40) ... it dropped to #44 the next week and then disappeared altogether .... so it didn't make much impact in Miami at all. Edited July 8 by Roburt
Roburt Posted July 15 Author Posted July 15 Of course, many hit R&B / soul songs got covered a lot, both by UK & US artists ... another such song was Rufus Thomas's "Walking The Dog" ...
Roburt Posted July 15 Author Posted July 15 (edited) The individual records are easier to make out on this version of the pic ... AND why not have Rufus too ... Edited July 15 by Roburt
Julianb Posted July 15 Posted July 15 Does King Size Taylor - somebody's always trying count (following Ted Taylor's release on Okeh)?
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