Are Re-Edits And Mash Ups Killing Soul Music?

Interesting. .....but I'm gonna need more time to do it justice!

Laters.........

The bottom line for me is that I'd like it to go back to a more underground scene, with a load of maverick DJ's at the helm, all with something to say musically!

Cheers

Mark R

Thanks Mark - Its people like you with all your knowledge and experience that can do something like this justice. I'm with you on the underground scene element, lets face it they are the reason we are here today. But very few tracks made it out, the ones that did were pure quality.

Kenya track is a great tune ,shame a lot of Modern releases are  MP3 only not vinyl,. all down to cost i suppsoe !

For quite some time now as a Modern DJ I have been quietly expressing concern to a few people about the amount of re edits/re workings/remixes/mash ups being played on the Modern Soul scene.

 

I am not referring to House music, I'll leave that for another day, but songs like the George Benson Love X Love track that seems to have become the 'banker' for many DJ's. It always fills the dance floor, never fails, and always gets requested but my question to the knowledgable soul music fans on here is this..

 

Are they dancing simply because they know the original?

 

Lets face it, it has to be one of the laziest remixes ever, a bit of a bass beat and an extended intro is all that differs from the 1980 UK #10 chart hit. Now I dont know the person that took a few minutes to put this re hash together but I am sure that Quincy Jones who produced it, and knows a fair bit about making people dance, didn't say to Rod Temperton 'You know what, I messed up with this track, it needs a bit more bass'.

 

 

And it doesnt stop there, See you when I get there is another  well know track that has suffered the same treatment. They know the original so they will dance. But it is preventing the better brand new music from coming through. Modern Soul is about moving on, taking the scene forwards, brand new Modern music with soul in it. Look at tracks like Something For The Weekend and Tribute. Born on the Modern Scene now played a Northern room. Both original and both in their original format.

 

There may be another side to this which again came to light during a conversation with the aforementioned people, and that is that everyone wants to be a DJ these days and these songs are easy to come by and easy to fill the dance floor to, once you have done that they think they can call themselves a DJ and put on their own events. This then dilutes our already over subscribed scene with another event.

 

One of musics legendary producers Tom Moulton, has now remixed just about every Philly track released. But it is so hard to tell them apart from the original I ask myself why he even bothered. They were great first time round leave them alone. If your going to re do something get a different singer and a different arrangement and really change it. Some songs sound brilliant if they get the right treatment, the recent version of MIchael Jacksons 'Can't Help It' done by Kenya is a fine example of that, bang on for the Modern Scene.

 

There are some brilliant Modern Soul tracks out there, tunes that will hold their own on a dance floor and please the ear of any soul music connoisseur. Songs that someone has taken care to write, produce and record. Lets hear them and stop promoting the lazy remixers who from their bedroom can destroy the work of those great singers/producers/arrangers that we hold in such high regard.

I'm with you with the Tom Moulton situation.I love the original tracks,that's good enough for me.

Some good points raised Andy. Can remember Mark R speaking out against them a few years ago over on EMS & a few people shot him down but are now agreeing with him.
The 2 tracks you chose though (Summat For't Weekend & Tribute) that have crossed over to the Northern scene are probably 2 of the worst records played in Modern rooms recently (IMO) & have both been bastardised into a 7" format anyway so is this not similar to the whole remix/re-edit scenario but kinda in reverse?
Agree r/e the George Benson Gamm remix, totally pointless.
As for the Moulton things the thing we seem to forget is that the originals were limited by the format,i/e 7" vinyl & quite a lot of them had no option but to put part 1 on the a side & part 2 on the b side. Classic example is the guv'nor Harold Melvin - The Love I Lost part 1&2.

Problem for me with a lot of the Moulton Philly remixes is that they are overlong. Probably the best one of the recent crop (IMO) was the Peoples Choice remix of Do It Any Way You Wanna & that only lasts 5-30 as opposed to some of them that are over twice as long.

Also the whole remix thing has been around for years, remember some of the Walter Gibbons things from the mid 70's. Same goes for some of the Morales things & a couple of tracks from the 2013 M&M mixes album were pretty good & the remix of Third World - Now That We Found Love was outstanding again IMO.

Strange thing is nobody seemed to critisize the Dimitri from Paris Philly remixes from a few years ago.

Be interesting to hear Ian Dewhirsts side of this topic.

 

Quick last question, Ron Hall & the Muthafunkaz - The Way You Love Me - best version?

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Sorry to say this but 75% is a mash up 

Some good points raised Andy. Can remember Mark R speaking out against them a few years ago over on EMS & a few people shot him down but are now agreeing with him.

The 2 tracks you chose though (Summat For't Weekend & Tribute) that have crossed over to the Northern scene are probably 2 of the worst records played in Modern rooms recently (IMO)

 

Quick last question, Ron Hall & the Muthafunkaz - The Way You Love Me - best version?

Cunnie - As usual the experienced guys bring up the best points.

Got to say I disagree with Ben Westbeach that is a well produced catchy tune with credible dance floor qualities. Tribute is just a feel good track. The Dimitri from paris re workings are never heard and quite rightly so. As for The Way You Love Me, I prefer the original the sample was taken from, Teddy Pendergrass Come Go With Me :-)

Got to say I love the picture you added Soul Source admins. Fantastic!!

Cunnie - As usual the experienced guys bring up the best points.

Got to say I disagree with Ben Westbeach that is a well produced catchy tune with credible dance floor qualities. Tribute is just a feel good track. The Dimitri from paris re workings are never heard and quite rightly so. As for The Way You Love Me, I prefer the original the sample was taken from, Teddy Pendergrass Come Go With Me :-)

Maybe I was being a trifle harsh on Ben Westbeach but the main point I was trying to make is the way that & the Tribute thing have both been edited in the opposite direction to make them more user friendly for the Northern scene.

As for the Dimitri remixes might I suggest a listen to the Disco re-edit of the Jacksons - Living Together. He takes the track to a whole new level IMO & the guitar riff at 5-30 is to die for.

Muthafunkaz - Wish I could post up the mash up/remix I have of it that uses the Michael Proctor vocal from Deliver Me but promised thy guy who did it that I couldn't share it sadly. Point taken r/e the original where the sample came from, Teddy P but great as it is it's just not bouncy enough for the dancefloor.

As for remixes here's a recent example off the top of my head. The Frankie Knuckles & Eric Cupper mix of the Sunburst Bands - The Secret Life Of Us is far superior to the album cut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq7fpHTdujA

 

Big Question, and Long intro, which can be answered in one small statement, If its good, its good, if its crap, dont buy it...

 

All that needs to be said in this regard, and sorry I dont mean that disrespectfully to Andy Jackson.

 

Love the Smash ad by the way...

 

Mal.C

It's the clueless DJ's that play the rubbish who kill it, not the music itself.

 

 

Roger

Can we clarify?

 

The question really seems to be; "Are re edits and mash ups killing soul music, or damaging the 'modern' scene".

 

So then ask, are they made as stand alone recordings that someone decides to play on the 'modern' scene or, are they made for the 'modern' scene?

 

Because if it's the latter, I think it is those who play them on the 'modern' scene who have questions to answer not the 'artists' or people who make them. And if it's the former, well, creative types will push boundaries and are rightly no respecters of establishments are they? 

 

 

Or have I misunderstood the original question?

 

p.s. Sorry just seen another post by Roger Williams that probably makes mine redundant - please feel free to ignore...

They may well be keeping the whole thing going !  Good records tend to be timeless but then again many people on here are more than content to live totally in the past...How many young people are at the venues that are going, whats the average age ???

 

The demographic trends speak for themselves...Who will buy rare records ? Who might actually want them outside of a few hundred people worldwide..And they will be worthless when the nursing home beckons !

 

Mark Ronson with his faux 60's sound helped the northern scene along more than any bickering about the odd re-edit/mash up...

 

I laugh at the term modern soul ..most of its over 30 years old !

Music should be played how it was originally presented anything less than that compromises the integrity of the scene . If a track isnt good enough then it should stand or fall by its merits no amount of twiddleing or tweaking is realy going to improve it .

slightly different issue but this is a problem away from the UK soul scene. djs are making re edits of rare tunes they can never get their hands on, extending a few bars and claiming they are some kind of hero for doing it. lots of big modern tunes that broke on the UK soul scene are being murdered for the djs personal kudos. Rokk is a favourite for this treatment. Vomit inducing in any capacity. unless of course done properly however anyone who thinks Rokk needs touching up is fairly clueless. let alone touching up by a 20 something french kid with f all experience of any music production

I just wrote a really long answer and then inexplicably somehow deleted it. 

 

But no, re-edits and mash-ups are not killing soul music. They're not even designed for the modern scene anyway so it's almost accidental if they find an audience there. There's plenty of places where the good, creative ones are played over a decent system and sound incredible but that's a long way from the modern scene believe me.

 

The re-edit scene is a long way from the soul scene, so it's probably a bonus if the odd re-edit finds favour on the modern scene. I'd say 95% of the better re-edits would never be played on the modern scene anyway. They just wouldn't work for the audience. The re-edit scene is probably more about sonic dynamics rather than soulful vocals, so it's a bit chalk and cheese in my view.

 

So no. Re-edits and mash-ups are not killing soul music, at least not for me. 

 

Ian D 

Two of the worst remixes' ive heard lately are ray Charles and Lowell fulsom i was told they originated from Austria.

The dj day mix of marvin gaye is amazing. Not clued up on edits at all but really love that one.

I got totally bored with the remake / re-edits thing a while back. I taker Ian's point about them not being done for the soul scene, but at the end of the day modern DJs oon the soul scene should be looking for something new and fresh to play....otherwise it's just yet another retro scene of ageing hippies and Mons and Dads.

They may well be keeping the whole thing going ! Good records tend to be timeless but then again many people on here are more than content to live totally in the past...How many young people are at the venues that are going, whats the average age ??? The demographic trends speak for themselves...Who will buy rare records ? Who might actually want them outside of a few hundred people worldwide..And they will be worthless when the nursing home beckons ! Mark Ronson with his faux 60's sound helped the northern scene along more than any bickering about the odd re-edit/mash up... I laugh at the term modern soul ..most of its over 30 years old !

I was going to ask is their a thriving modern in the true sense of the meaning modern soul scene? Or is it by and large a 70's, 80's etc oldies scene. I know some do champion new material but are they like they counterparts on the northern scene, a minority?

I haven't seen any evidence either of Mark Ronson having an effect on the Northern scene, especially at all-nighters? The average age certainly isn't coming down.

Personally, I like (& buy) nearly all the Tom Moulton remix stuff.

The originals are great to have (MUST-HAVES) but lots of the newer mixes add an additional dimension that is good to have as well.

Tom will be involved in a 'slightly different' project in the near future .....

........ an old skool / new skool  thing on newly cut tracks that he will add his classic mixing skills to.

I personally haven't bought any Tom Moulton remixes, can't see the point in them to be honest. They don't make any improvement on the originals IMO. Like Ian says though they probably are aimed at us though.

I was going to ask is their a thriving modern in the true sense of the meaning modern soul scene? Or is it by and large a 70's, 80's etc oldies scene. I know some do champion new material but are they like they counterparts on the northern scene, a minority?

I haven't seen any evidence either of Mark Ronson having an effect on the Northern scene, especially at all-nighters? The average age certainly isn't coming down.

 

I know we've done this before but.....in many places it went the same way as the northern scene. Dominated by "rooms" at weekenders where a largely intoxicated "on site" audience just wanted to hear things they were familiar with and could shuffle around and sing along to. Very different from jumping in a car and going off 50-100 miles to a night to hear something new and refreshing and getting a buzz out of it. Sorry I know that's controversial....but! The only thing that's really had a negative impact on the modern scene is the lack of err.....plays for modern soul!

Don't get out to modern dos (or any others at the mo) but I currently have the High Heeled Crossover cds on in the car (though on what level many of the tracks constitute 'crossover' is beyond me) - have to say a lot of the mixes on there positively destroy the originals - no idea how old they are, but Eddie Kendricks' 'He's a Friend' as a for instance has just been absolutely buggered IMO - turned into lightweight pop (filling all the gaps with mush).

 

There's also a rather funny 'remix' of Johnnie Taylor's 'What About My Love' which as far as I can hear is basically 99% comprised of use of the pitch control - with the result he borders on sounding like Pinky and Perky.

 

It's fair enough with legit remixes (if they're any good) based on access to the masters and so the opportunity to do something creative and different, but most as you noted seem to be the old track with the base/treble messed around with here and there and some cretinous, clichéd twiddly gimmicks added.

 

Dx

Featurecast - One step is a work of genius, when someone messes with a gaye/franklyn track i would run a mile but this is really cleaver and works so so well, just one example of cleaver editing, time stretch and thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EQp-j5g_T4

did i miss spell franklin, shame on me

Featurecast - One step is a work of genius, when someone messes with a gaye/franklyn track i would run a mile but this is really cleaver and works so so well, just one example of cleaver editing, time stretch and thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EQp-j5g_T4

 

A perfect example of a creative re-edit that really brings something to the equation. It brought all whole new audience to an Aretha song that could never have been played in any proper clubs WITHOUT the re-edit. 

 

And yes, that sped-up re-edit of Johnnie Taylor is tosh. I had an argument with a co DJ about playing that one at a gig recently.......so I tend to concur with Roger that it it's more about the DJ rather than the re-edit.

 

Ian D 

Featurecast - One step is a work of genius, when someone messes with a gaye/franklyn track i would run a mile but this is really cleaver and works so so well, just one example of cleaver editing, time stretch and thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EQp-j5g_T4

oh yes

I know we've done this before but.....in many places it went the same way as the northern scene. Dominated by "rooms" at weekenders where a largely intoxicated "on site" audience just wanted to hear things they were familiar with and could shuffle around and sing along to. Very different from jumping in a car and going off 50-100 miles to a night to hear something new and refreshing and getting a buzz out of it. Sorry I know that's controversial....but! The only thing that's really had a negative impact on the modern scene is the lack of err.....plays for modern soul!

 

100% right Steve, in a musical sense it's the blind leading the blind now, it has been for quite some time.

 

Roger

I personally haven't bought any Tom Moulton remixes, can't see the point in them to be honest. They don't make any improvement on the originals IMO. Like Ian says though they probably are aimed at us though.

 

The Moulton remixes are essentially Tom doing what he would have done to the 7" mixes of certain records had he had the opportunity and access to do them in the 1970's - in other words, supply a 'Tom Moulton Mix'. Whilst I love the original 7" mixes I now find myself playing Tom's new mixes as I've heard the originals a gazillion times and I now like to hear them lushly extended. A perfect example being this:

 

New York City - I'm Doing Fine Now

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFNwcTDCcf4

 

Whoops, that's an edit of the remix LOL, but he's re-worked the intro and made it much better than the original mix IMO. They're not for everyone Chalky and the Northern scene especially tends to like short records, so I doubt that any more than 3% of the sales come from the Northern audience, if that. So no, the Tom Moulton remix projects are not aimed at the Northern audience at all really but rather to anyone who has an appetite for hearing great soul/dance records extended by the godfather of the remix.

 

 

Philadelphia International Classics: The Tom Moulton Remixes is actually the best-selling Harmless album of the last 4 years, so there's a huge audience out there who obviously love this stuff thank god....  

 

Ian D   

Oh well, I've just lost my fairly lengthy reply I was drafting in Word so you'll understand that I've lost my enthusiasm to reply.

 

I hope it returns later.........LOL

 

 

Cheers,

Mark R

Featurecast - One step is a work of genius, when someone messes with a gaye/franklyn track i would run a mile but this is really cleaver and works so so well, just one example of cleaver editing, time stretch and thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EQp-j5g_T4

 

Absolute proof if needed that re-mixes are killing soul music

 

Have you lot got cloth ears or something

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cIWu5m8UmA

Oh well, I've just lost my fairly lengthy reply I was drafting in Word so you'll understand that I've lost my enthusiasm to reply.

 

I hope it returns later.........LOL

 

 

Cheers,

Mark R

 

That happened to me yesterday Mark. 30 minutes of my life just erased. It's a bugger innit.....

 

Ian D 

Absolute proof if needed that re-mixes are killing soul music

 

Have you lot got cloth ears or something

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cIWu5m8UmA

 

How's it killing it? More people have had the opportunity to hear this song as a result of the remix. If that gets another 50 or 100 people into Aretha Franklin then I don't see what the problem is. I love the original and I love the remix......

 

Ian D 

Hardly creative is it some one with a drum machine and shouting WAHEY every few seconds its just lazy and does nothing to enhance the music .

Philadelphia International Classics: The Tom Moulton Remixes is actually the best-selling Harmless album of the last 4 years, so there's a huge audience out there who obviously love this stuff thank god....

 

Ian D   

 

Edited.  Thought better of it LOL. 

 

 

Philadelphia International Classics: The Tom Moulton Remixes is actually the best-selling Harmless album of the last 4 years, so there's a huge audience out there who obviously love this stuff thank god....

 

Ian D   

 

I reckon we often forget that there is a world beyond our pharocial little niche .....We think we are the only people that like soul music. There must be at least 30 different sub-scenes and genres in London alone. Before we even look elsewheres. 

Hardly creative is it some one with a drum machine and shouting WAHEY every few seconds its just lazy and does nothing to enhance the music .

Good point, and i always run a mile when someone messes with anything like this classic, however this i feel is very good, and mixing marvin alongside aretha  is talent, it may not be to everyone's liking, however i can't knock this remix, it's good and as Ian D quite rightly states, it may bring people into other soul sounds and seek out the original.

I play this a lot on radio, and it's popular

Good point, and i always run a mile when someone messes with anything like this classic, however this i feel is very good, and mixing marvin alongside aretha  is talent, it may not be to everyone's liking, however i can't knock this remix, it's good and as Ian D quite rightly states, it may bring people into other soul sounds and seek out the original.

I play this a lot on radio, and it's popular

 

But a mash up of this exact same record was done six or seven years ago now......I remember buying it on a white label 7 in Worcester at The Soulful Sessions. Years ago.

Personally i don`t see the point of most mash ups/re-edits,most of the records done were perfect 1st time round so play the original. Now if there`s a long rap or van halen style guiter `white noise` moment or the song was good but singer not too clever. ,Fine do a edit  or update the song.

 

Also it`s a bit lazy on the dj`s part when there`s always good new Modern soul records newly released/original written etc  which are dance floor friendly but might need

a bit of work getting the crowd into it.Surely that`s the art/skill of a good dj  .Even if new material is a bit flat,you can also dip into the collection for great records a few years old or some that got missed by most etc.     .

 

For me it`s about buying old records you missed and supporting the new artists who have the bottle/luck to make / good new material that will hold the test of time.

Hi Chalky

 

Was thinking that Ronson had more of an overall effect on the music scene rather than the northern scene per se...and as you say the average age is only going up not down !!! LOL ...Hope all goes well with you...

 

 

I was going to ask is their a thriving modern in the true sense of the meaning modern soul scene? Or is it by and large a 70's, 80's etc oldies scene. I know some do champion new material but are they like they counterparts on the northern scene, a minority?

I haven't seen any evidence either of Mark Ronson having an effect on the Northern scene, especially at all-nighters? The average age certainly isn't coming down.

Oh I would put my Willie J edit with vocal up for discussion..... that was originally done for a well known northern soul company !!

 

We spent time on it though not a quick run and rinse job !

Hi Chalky

 

Was thinking that Ronson had more of an overall effect on the music scene rather than the northern scene per se...and as you say the average age is only going up not down !!! LOL ...Hope all goes well with you...

 

 

I had to actually go and look who Mark Ronson was. So he obviously hasn't had any effect on the Northern scene that I frequent !

I did a few soul/modern re-edits in the mid 90's and can I just add that there's quite a bit of love and time put into them - they're not all knocked out in a night by a non-scene/soul boy who don't care or is trying to   kill the soul scene.

The Moulton remixes are essentially Tom doing what he would have done to the 7" mixes of certain records had he had the opportunity and access to do them in the 1970's - in other words, supply a 'Tom Moulton Mix'. Whilst I love the original 7" mixes I now find myself playing Tom's new mixes as I've heard the originals a gazillion times and I now like to hear them lushly extended. A perfect example being this:

 

New York City - I'm Doing Fine Now

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFNwcTDCcf4

 

Whoops, that's an edit of the remix LOL, but he's re-worked the intro and made it much better than the original mix IMO. They're not for everyone Chalky and the Northern scene especially tends to like short records, so I doubt that any more than 3% of the sales come from the Northern audience, if that. So no, the Tom Moulton remix projects are not aimed at the Northern audience at all really but rather to anyone who has an appetite for hearing great soul/dance records extended by the godfather of the remix.

 

 

Philadelphia International Classics: The Tom Moulton Remixes is actually the best-selling Harmless album of the last 4 years, so there's a huge audience out there who obviously love this stuff thank god....

 

Ian D   

 

The problem is that that particular record can't be improved on, so anything done to it is a retrograde step.  

The problem is that that particular record can't be improved on, so anything done to it is a retrograde step.

Depends what you want Pete. If you want a 3 minute edit of a track for radio, then fine. The version you're talking about was edited down from a full-length version. I prefer listening to the full versions because they're not governed by U.S. radio station formats.

The funny thing is, the original single versions were virtually all re-edits of the album versions in the first place.

So most people actually LIKE re-edits without even realising it! It's a weird old world out there...

Ian D

Depends what you want Pete. If you want a 3 minute edit of a track for radio, then fine. The version you're talking about was edited down from a full-length version. I prefer listening to the full versions because they're not governed by U.S. radio station formats.

The funny thing is, the original single versions were virtually all re-edits of the album versions in the first place.

So most people actually LIKE re-edits without even realising it! It's a weird old world out there...

Ian D

 

I suppose when you hear things as a kid, they get ingrained on your mind and that's the sound you remember. It's like if you had an old record as a kid and it jumped in a particular place, every time you hear it you listen out for that jump, even when it's being played on the radio.

I suppose when you hear things as a kid, they get ingrained on your mind and that's the sound you remember. It's like if you had an old record as a kid and it jumped in a particular place, every time you hear it you listen out for that jump, even when it's being played on the radio.

 

I know exactly what you mean. The UK copy of "Why Can't We Be Lovers" - Holland & Dozier I bought when it came out, not only had a TERRIBLE edit but also a pressing fault! Both faults became ingrained on my brain with the result that, some 40 years later, I still have problems listening to the full original. 

 

I'm not convinced that the actual problem is the term 're-edit' since most people's favorite records are re-edits anyway, but rather the potential for what some people might call 'lazy programming' by DJ's on the Modern scene. I guess re-edits give some DJ's the chance to slip some oldies in via the back door. There are clubs where re-edits are played more or less all night but to a totally different and younger audience and those nights are incredible and easily as energized as I remember the Northern and Modern scenes in the 70's. But a completely different crowd. 

 

As with all these things, it's horses for courses. If I want to hear some killer re-edit sets, then, frankly, the last place I'd go to would be a Modern do.

 

Ian D   

The King Tutt 12" is a re-edit of the 7" mix, don't stop it going for big money.

I know exactly what you mean. The UK copy of "Why Can't We Be Lovers" - Holland & Dozier I bought when it came out, not only had a TERRIBLE edit but also a pressing fault! Both faults became ingrained on my brain with the result that, some 40 years later, I still have problems listening to the full original. 

 

 

 

F*cking hell Ian, that is just uncanny, the record I was thinking of was Holland & Dozier "Why can't we be lovers", mine had a jump on it, just after the line "I try to leave but I don't have the heart".  Unbelievable.