Why 60S Newies?

Just been pondering life, love and the 60s newies crowd. As you do.

And whilst doing this, I stumbled accross a theory, that I'd like to run past you.

I'm 46. Many Northern Soul fans will have been into 'our' music, almost as long as I have been alive.

When I first could the bug, like many, its wasnt a gradual process, it was hook line and sinker from the word go. BAM.

And when I first visited local venues, I would have at home maybe 20-30 singles (Pressings) and maybe a Casino Classics LP. Or the Capitol Soul LP.

So in the venues, I'd probably not hear many, if any songs I knew. Even if it was an alldayer. And of course that didnt bother me. I expected it. And I'd marvel at the older people in there, and their knowledge of the artist, label, where it was played etc.

Now I'd been into soul for about 7 or 8 years by the time Stafford started. Before then the only niters I'd gone to regularly was Yate, One at Swanage, Hinckley and Leicester.

At Hinckley and to a lesser extent, Leicester, I guess I'd be snookered behind the 8 ball when it came to knowing old tracks. I might have grown more knowledgeable, but while I might know that Terrible Tom was a Torch sound, I had no hope of experiencing that. And while I loved oldies, the taster I'd been given at Yate by guys like Dave Thorley and Ian Clark meant that Stafford was to be my favourite home. I wonder if this is because of the following reason.

We all started on the same page. It didnt matter if you were in the in crowd at Wigan, or if you'd been a regular at the Flamingo.

When Keb, Guy, Pat, Dave, Richard etc played a first time out sound, 90% of the guys in the room had never heard it before. We were all experiencing it at the same time. I didnt have to sit and listen to mates telling me how much better it sounds in the big hall at Wigan, or in the dungeon where the Wheel was held.

So for the first time, in Northern terms, I was as much a part of that songs Northern Soul heritage, as the guys who first danced to the Gems at Wigan. And maybe, that was the first time I felt like I wasnt at a disadvantage compared to many of the guys I was travelling with.

Since then, my taste for soul has erred on hearing new sounds. Not exclusive to oldies. But alongside. And as soon as my enthusiasm starts to wain, I find myself looking for new sounds to hear, rather than old faves like Pookie Hudson for example.

So I'm just wondering, about people the same age as me. Does this make sense, or am I talking more garbage than a fella full of Green and Clears? Also before my time. We had crazy barbs. Much less fun.

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You're exactly like me Mikey, that's the heritage i grew up with too. I'm 44 so i was around for slightly less time before Stafford started and I only went to the last couple of years of Wigan. Stafford, Leicester, Hinckley was a breath of fresh air, without dismissing the past and you're right everyone was in the same boat with all the new sounds (or more likely forgotten, neglected and rarely played sounds to be honest) coming along.

I have also always looked for sounds 'new to my ears' as well alongside the oldies. Often they are just underplayed, neglected or forgotten oldies but still fresh and worth playing out (usually because they haven't been hammered for 30 years).

I think the thing that amazes me the most is that there are plenty of people who, like us, started out in that era, with that philosophy who now only want to listen to oldies and aren't interest in the rarely played at all. They have forgotten the reason they got into the scene in the first place and they wouldn't have got away with it 25 years ago

only been about for about 6 years and knew naff all about "Northern Soul" or its history and what was played where and by who and when, never went to Wigan, Stafford, Mecca, Ritz etc etc etc, I got into this secne through Oldies and listening to the CDs you can buy in your local supermarket but soon realised they all have the same tracks on them so was wasting money and thought that those few hundred tunes was all that there was although no matter how good them tunes are i was soon starting to get bored of them and then i found different CDs and started to attend numerous different venues in the South and realised there was more tunes to this scene but then found the 100 Club and BANG what the fook is this music blew me away and didnt know a bloody tune all night along with meeting some great peeps and then found Soul Source and realised that there are actually 10s of 1000s of tunes out there to listen too, not all good and not all to my taste but plenty out there,

1 thing i just cant help doing is listening to stuff i dont know cos for me at least once a week i hear a new tune to blow me away and i just cant wait for that next tune i dont know yet that i hear for the first time that will make the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end, i feel im missing out on so much and am wiling to trawl through the tunes not for me to get to that next TUNE that IS for me

i couldnt care less where a tune was first played or not and by who and value etc etc etc if its good its good and thats good enough for me

Just been pondering life, love and the 60s newies crowd. As you do. And whilst doing this, I stumbled accross a theory, that I'd like to run past you. I'm 46. Many Northern Soul fans will have been into 'our' music, almost as long as I have been alive. When I first could the bug, like many, its wasnt a gradual process, it was hook line and sinker from the word go. BAM. And when I first visited local venues, I would have at home maybe 20-30 singles (Pressings) and maybe a Casino Classics LP. Or the Capitol Soul LP. So in the venues, I'd probably not hear many, if any songs I knew. Even if it was an alldayer. And of course that didnt bother me. I expected it. And I'd marvel at the older people in there, and their knowledge of the artist, label, where it was played etc. Now I'd been into soul for about 7 or 8 years by the time Stafford started. Before then the only niters I'd gone to regularly was Yate, One at Swanage, Hinckley and Leicester. At Hinckley and to a lesser extent, Leicester, I guess I'd be snookered behind the 8 ball when it came to knowing old tracks. I might have grown more knowledgeable, but while I might know that Terrible Tom was a Torch sound, I had no hope of experiencing that. And while I loved oldies, the taster I'd been given at Yate by guys like Dave Thorley and Ian Clark meant that Stafford was to be my favourite home. I wonder if this is because of the following reason. We all started on the same page. It didnt matter if you were in the in crowd at Wigan, or if you'd been a regular at the Flamingo. When Keb, Guy, Pat, Dave, Richard etc played a first time out sound, 90% of the guys in the room had never heard it before. We were all experiencing it at the same time. I didnt have to sit and listen to mates telling me how much better it sounds in the big hall at Wigan, or in the dungeon where the Wheel was held. So for the first time, in Northern terms, I was as much a part of that songs Northern Soul heritage, as the guys who first danced to the Gems at Wigan. And maybe, that was the first time I felt like I wasnt at a disadvantage compared to many of the guys I was travelling with. Since then, my taste for soul has erred on hearing new sounds. Not exclusive to oldies. But alongside. And as soon as my enthusiasm starts to wain, I find myself looking for new sounds to hear, rather than old faves like Pookie Hudson for example. So I'm just wondering, about people the same age as me. Does this make sense, or am I talking more garbage than a fella full of Green and Clears? Also before my time. We had crazy barbs. Much less fun. This post has been promoted to an article

Hi, Its an interesting line of thought which does carry some truth behind it for me too. I'm 45 and following my route through being a teenage Mod / scooter rallies /allnighters etc.was kind of progessive in hearing new material . It was quite lucky for me as the guys who Dj'd in Norwich already had a good ear for good soul music. I guess during the early 80ts there was a "spring cleaning " of the Northern scene music . As mentioned above (Keb Butch Kitch , Rob Marriot etc )alot of Djs took it on board and played what they thought we should hear. Don't forget the dance floor did dictate whether the track was popular in some cases. It was always surprising that a track that had so much going for it was relatively unknown . This scenario spurned for me a thurst for discuovering new / forgotten vinyl (6ts newies etc). Personally i love hearing obscure numbers , especially as we develope an ear for the stuff . I guess Life line is a true example of how many of us fit into your Topic on here today. The scene is constantly evolving and fortunately its the quality that comes through in the end. Lets hope more materail is still waiting be be found. It still makes me wonder how many collectors out there have brilliant tracks that have not had air play yet. If there are any collectors out there who are sitting on boxes of new material , then come forward and share it with the thousands of soul fans who love it. Keep on keeping on regards Frank Norwich backstreet soul club. apologies if i digressed

I fully understand where you guys are coming from & i'm one of the older into it for 40 odd years brigade. Always Always Always wanting to hear something new. Thats how it was when i started out & i haven't changed my ethos one iota.

Don't care what genre it is You can't coment wether you like it or not unless you've heard it...!!!!

The casino closed years ago & unless we move on everything will dissapear quicker than you can say Frank "bloody" Wilson.

It's because of the seemingly neverending amount of oldies venues & the reluctance of that crowd to stick with their original reasons for getting into the music (which was to hear something different constantly) that i've taken a sabatical & gone travelling (looking for something new to insire me)

I've been to Move On (great night it is), Bury Masonic etc but these nights are to far & few between.

I hope you keep up with the same attitudes guys & don't let the B*****D'S grind you down like they've done to me

The Git

I think there are so many Soul scenes withing a scene now.

And i don't Just mean R & B OR crossover or modern soul ect ect.

Different people are on the scene for different reasons.

Some for nostalgia some for the social side,some to just go to venues and hear rare sounds without any notion of dancing.

And others who just want to dance.

I do find all sides of the scene have confusing titles.

The Oldies scene should mean just that,but it only accounts for a small percentage of oldies.

Rare and underplayed to my mind should be an equel amount of both.

Yet i was looking at a couple of recent playlists for these venues.

And in 3 different 1 hour spots by 3 different DJs,only 1 of them played 3 underplayed oldies

the other 2 did not play any.

There are 100s of records out there that were only briefly played on the scene at one time or another and you never hear them at all.

All good quality stuff in my opinion too.

Also people came into the scene at different times,so have different influences on likes and dislikes.

Some people who left the scene for 20 or so years obviously will find its changed cause i think the types of soul music has evolved that is played nowadays.

In the 60s and 70s for instance most of what was played had that 4 on the floor motown beat.

Not too many 60s newies have that same sound these days,and i think the oldies crowd find that somewhat confusing.

I do think promoters should try and have have more of a blend at a night.

Example; Known oldies,underplayed oldies,60s newies, 70s oldies. (all danceable of course)

The above is just my opinion.

It seems like a lot of DJs WONT play known oldies at all,at a rare soul night.

And oldies DJs WONT play any popular 60s newies.

No wonder there is a split in the scene.

Stu.

Put a load of modern on Stu and have done, the oldies and classics are two different things, what i dont agree with is playing modern in one room and oldies in another room, classic examples are on every wknd and it does my head in, if music was played in one room it would be much better, Your right there is a divide!

I think there are so many Soul scenes withing a scene now.

And i don't Just mean R & B OR crossover or modern soul ect ect.

Different people are on the scene for different reasons.

Agreed

Some for nostalgia some for the social side,some to just go to venues and hear rare sounds without any notion of dancing.

And others who just want to dance.

I do find all sides of the scene have confusing titles.

The Oldies scene should mean just that,but it only accounts for a small percentage of oldies.

Rare and underplayed to my mind should be an equel amount of both.

Yet i was looking at a couple of recent playlists for these venues.

And in 3 different 1 hour spots by 3 different DJs,only 1 of them played 3 underplayed oldies

the other 2 did not play any.

Which venue was this?

There are 100s of records out there that were only briefly played on the scene at one time or another and you never hear them at all.

All good quality stuff in my opinion too.

Come to Move On on Friday and you'll hear them

Also people came into the scene at different times,so have different influences on likes and dislikes.

Some people who left the scene for 20 or so years obviously will find its changed cause i think the types of soul music has evolved that is played nowadays.

I disagree. I think anyone going to an oldies night thesedays even after 20 or 30 years off the scene will probably know most of the stuff played.

In the 60s and 70s for instance most of what was played had that 4 on the floor motown beat.

Not too many 60s newies have that same sound these days,and i think the oldies crowd find that somewhat confusing.

I do think promoters should try and have have more of a blend at a night.

Example; Known oldies,underplayed oldies,60s newies, 70s oldies. (all danceable of course)

Come to Move On and you'll here all the above and more besides

The above is just my opinion.

It seems like a lot of DJs WONT play known oldies at all,at a rare soul night.

And oldies DJs WONT play any popular 60s newies.

No wonder there is a split in the scene.

Stu.

I think one of the reasons why not many well known oldies get played at rare soul nights is because there are plenty of venues out there that cater for oldies. For example we are close to Nuneaton and the Coop, the best oldies night in the country in my opinion, there would be no point whatsoever playing lots of oldies at our night as well. We'll play some well known quality oldies of course, but mixing it 50/50 is not what we want to do and not what our regulars want either.

All very good points, the other thing i find a lot of is that the same dj"s play the same tunes over and over again week in week out! it does my head in, iwent to a local venue on friday which i havent been to for 18mnths for that reason, so i went along, paid in, it had gone up £2.00, i went in the main room and i saw the dj that was on and he was playing, Shoes, ok great record, loveley oldie, i then knew every record he was going to put on the decks next, it is a joke, out of 4 dj"s in that room there is only 1 dj that tries to change things by playing different stuff, the last hour, 12-1, and what happens, the floor clears and people go home, only the usual hardcore stay for the last hour. these people are NOT soulies and could not tell you the artists, labels, I very seldomley go to a big venue these days because i cant stand the searlings and the gingers, of this world, where if you went to one of thorleys or neil rustons doos they take a risk and play some stuff not heard, now the true soulies will know if these tunes are gonna take off.

All very good points, the other thing i find a lot of is that the same dj"s play the same tunes over and over again week in week out! it does my head in, iwent to a local venue on friday which i havent been to for 18mnths for that reason, so i went along, paid in, it had gone up £2.00, i went in the main room and i saw the dj that was on and he was playing, Shoes, ok great record, loveley oldie, i then knew every record he was going to put on the decks next, it is a joke, out of 4 dj"s in that room there is only 1 dj that tries to change things by playing different stuff, the last hour, 12-1, and what happens, the floor clears and people go home, only the usual hardcore stay for the last hour. these people are NOT soulies and could not tell you the artists, labels, I very seldomley go to a big venue these days because i cant stand the searlings and the gingers, of this world, where if you went to one of thorleys or neil rustons doos they take a risk and play some stuff not heard, now the true soulies will know if these tunes are gonna take off.

I always find this sort of attitude very dispiriting. I got into Northern around the Mod revival era and, as was mentioned at the start of the thread, had a hard core of singles and few compilations - Casino Classics, Sound of the Grapevine etc. and absolutely loved them, and have done ever since. However, unlike a lot of you I didn't then graduate onto the 80's Northern scene but stayed with the current music of the time therefore, with hindsight, missing out on a wonderful time for soul music by the sound of it.

For the past few years I've returned to the music that always made me feel good when I heard it so consequently a lot of the 'top 500' that you are all so bored with are fresh to me (imagine the fun in that).

What does astound me is the sheer amount of stuff available (aged 14 I thought there must be a couple of hundred Northern records tops) and the knowledge of people on the scene is remarkable.

The thing that irks me is when someone says "these people are NOT soulies and could not tell you the artists, labels", fine, I'm not a collector and never will be, but I love the music whether I've heard it a hundred times or hearing it for the very first time. If you collect you see the labels and remember them, I could tell you the b-side and the colour of the label of every Buzzcocks single released (because that's what I collected and owned as a kid,) but I wouldn't suggest that they were not a New Wave fan just because they didn't know most of their releases were on United Artists (anybody remember The Ruts first record label?).

So please don't knock or exclude people just because they aren't as knowledgable as you, we all love the music, just let everyone enjoy it whether it be oldies, 70's, crossover, rare, underplayed or whatever.

Peoples Unite, next question please

Interesting stuff. I turned 50 in March and like Matt, was not yet 15 when I made my first trip to the country's number one all-nighter. From that first trip, I remember records like Wombat, Dena Barnes, Larry Santos, The Malibus, Johnny Bragg, Dean Courtney etc being played and that they were familiar to me, maybe because record collectors/djs in Peterborough like Smudge Smith, Gary Spencer and Paul Donnelly had already sought out those sounds and were playing them at local nights. Within two years oldies all-nighters and Wheel and Torch revival nights had sprung up across the country, so even then I'd say there was a crowd of people less than prepared to listen to new discoveries, and I don't believe the 60s vs 70s split had much bearing on this because the same people used to level criticism at Soul Sam before he switched to modern around 1980. By 1985 I was pretty much tired of the scene and consequently missed Stafford. I do remember hearing stuff like Doug Banks, Kurt Harris, Tommy Navarro early on at Peterborough and not 'getting' it and didn't in fact get it until many years later, by which time I'd moved to Spain. Next month I'm attending a weekend event in northern Spain, not far from where I live, Runaway Love Sessions which boasts a superb roster of British and Spanish talent. I'll most likely be clueless as to the records being spun, but that makes it all the more challenging wondering whether I'll be left cold or torn away from conversations with the time-honoured 'what the f*** is this!? The good thing is that twenty five years on people are still charting unknown seas and rolling back frontiers, which can't be a bad thing. If 'exhibition dancing' to Babe Ruth is your thing, then fine, but I know where I'd rather be.

I was 2 at the start of the 60s and 12 when they finished , so it's not rocket s to work out how how old i am .Was lucky enough to have a sister 6 years my elder who bought "Supremes A Go Go " in 66 when it came out (good taste our kid !) of which i played all the time when she was out , along with her James n Bobby P stuff ,which i liked and still got the same copies , Thats why i gave a bit of background and why i'm replying to this . Like Mikeys' subject ,and mentioning Keb (whom i know well ) but Guy , Guy and I started D J ing togetherter in 73/74 who unbeknown prior to our meeting had similar elder sisters heavily into Motown. So it could be said we both had a head start! Dead into 60s stuff and still am but mellowed and not as much blinkered as I was ,let soul music riegh ,whatever decade ,and lets not dis new releases cos they are 4 decades from no w "the 60s"

Hi Guys,

First of all can I say great post. I am far too young to have been to the Torch, Casino, Mecca etc but do my fair share of travelling to all-nighters and weekenders.

Your comments are at the hub of the scene as it stands at the moment. In York, we have a thriving scene with several Northern nights, mine included. Some purely play classics and others play rare and/or underplayed. I try and get a mix especially as I am targetting the un-initiated - everything from 60's R&B to Ultra Modern. But the majority of punters though seem to want to hear 99% classics with the odd newie chucked in. I assume this is a fair reflection of the country as a whole. As many of you have mentioned, they seem to have forgotton why they got into the scene in the first place - wanting to hear something new/different and I suppose be different. But it is understandable. As life goes on circumstances and people change - work, marriage, kids, mortgage etc. I suppose people want a release from it all but to tunes they are familiar with. Fairplay.

I do fear for the scene and what it will come to represent. How are we going to attract the young folk into the scene who are being suffocated by the mass media bombardment of downloadable disposable pop? How are we going to show that we are different, why our music means so much to us and how that is reflected in our attitude and outlook on life? I believe the scene needs to be a good mix of nostalgia and the pushing forward of new found sounds or underplayed gems.

It requires dj's feeling confident that soulies will dance to tunes they have never heard before or not for a long time and for soulies to have the confidence to get up and dancing to tunes they have never heard before, providing the like it.

It's gonna be interesting.

Cheer's y'all,

Jay Cee

It was quite lucky for me as the guys who Dj'd in Norwich already had a good ear for good soul music. I guess during the early 80ts there was a "spring cleaning " of the Northern scene music . As mentioned above (Keb Butch Kitch , Rob Marriot etc )alot of Djs took it on board and played what they thought we should hear.

My thoughts for what they're worth.

My fanatacism of Soul music also kicked off in the fair city of Norwich in the mid 70's so I'm quite sure some of those DJ's you mention Frank will remember me (I certainly remember Kev Laws & Mobbsy to name but two) but come the mid 80's those very same folk who I'd knocked about with ten years previously had lost their "good ear for good soul music"! I could count the number of people on one hand from Norwich who actually regularly bothered to go to Stafford and later places like Market Harborough, Mexborough, Chesterfield & others post Wigan where "60's newies" featured heavily. It might be argued that it was because of the travelling but sorry no, somehow for some reason the majority of those guys shut their ears to newer discoveries and I distinctly recall one of those already mentioned saying that "it sounds like rock n' roll"! Sorry if that sounds a bit negative but that's exactly how it was.

The initial couple of years after Wigan shut was very challenging to say the least and as has already been said many times, regular punters were extremely thin on the ground with only the die-hards still prepared to shake a leg, lend an ear or grab a piece of vinyl (which was cheap by that time) and for me, bearing in mind that I had experienced the Casino (which appeared a bit insular to me the first time I went BTW), St Ives, Peterborough and the 100 Club, the only reason to keep going was so that I could hear new stuff. Attending events that were/are billed as 'oldies' only has never, ever appealed to me.

What many people seem to forget is that there was a time that tunes that are now considered 'oldies' from Sandi Sheldon through The Magnetics to Billy Arnell were all 'newies' at one time so instead of labelling lets just call it rare Soul and accept it for what it is - the most uplifting music ever to grace this Earth! Hallelujah!

Mick

I am one of the 'vets' who did go to Wigan regularly right up until the end so I went through the Lenny Gamble phase when they played pop music in the big hall and people wore 'Levine must go' t shirts. Some of us went to the Mecca first then Wigan and liked a bit of everything. I'm still like that in that I just LOVE SOUL MUSIC be it oldies (underplayed perleese), R&B, popcorn, modern, Motown (again underplayed), rare (as long as it's not too slow). Went to the Stafford reunion (having never been as was bringing up kids) and enjoyed that, love to have a dance in all the different rooms at Prestatyn, Cleethorpes etc. Love the London scene, Crossfire, 100 Club, VaVaVoom. If we didn't have new toons the scene would die and we would all be at home listening to Little Anthony on a compilation CD from Asda......

Not often do i ' comment ' on articles due to ridiculement from some within our scene , however and for what its worth heres my four pennies worth ...

I agree wholeheartedly with all the above post's ..again ' too young ' to have visited the major venues but over the last 30 odd years have travelled north , south .east & west for dayers , nighters and just to meet some new friends gained along the way and support their ' Local '..

To many times have i heard the the same staid playlist and the excuse ' theres no call for that so havnt brought it or not available on a 45...' now for the controversial bit.....

I grew up buying vynal when a) i could afford it & b) when there was no Cd / Mp3 around so sounds were limited , so without travelling the length breadth , you ony heard what was about and played at you local or on a tape from someone who had been somewhere. Now with the advent of 21st century technology i can hear New , Old, Rare, Underplayed ,Overplayed , New releases & Un-releases...

I for one see no issues with introducing 'New / Unheard ' sounds no matter on what format and to keep this great Genre alive ...respect to any one who collects vynal , only plays vynal etc.. , but for me its the music that is important and not the dream....

Jeff

Great post Mike, I like you, as you know, have been into the scene for about the same time span, I too loved the days of Yate, Stafford etc and loved hearing the new tunes as I do today. I've never left the scene since I started in the late 7t's and now and again I get blown away by a tune I haven't heard before. What I search for these days is having a great night, out as I regularly do and finding a quality new tune to listen to. I find it harder to hear new tunes of the quality of bygone days but that is understandable due to the knowledge of the scene etc. The scene however is not only about the music as my friends old and new, are also a major force as I love to drive miles across our promised land to meet up with top people with similar tastes. It beats staying in a place you don't belong in!