Catacombs 13/07/1974 - 2024 50th Anniversary

[Agentsmith]

Just about six weeks away from this unique celebration....Wigan has been done...as has the Torch and Wheel...Now the Catacombs reaches a landmark date. I'm sure there are many still alive who attended the venue...care to express your thoughts and share your memories of the music, djs, characters....even pics?...personally, i only saw the last 6 months of it, before its closure but, it was my first proper venue and became a springboard to visiting other venues, and Northern Soul immersion...does this venue stand amongst the greats in your opinion?.

[Monny1916]

6 hours ago, Agentsmith said:

Just about six weeks away from this unique celebration....Wigan has been done...as has the Torch and Wheel...Now the Catacombs reaches a landmark date. I'm sure there are many still alive who attended the venue...care to express your thoughts and share your memories of the music, djs, characters....even pics?...personally, i only saw the last 6 months of it, before its closure but, it was my first proper venue and became a springboard to visiting other venues, and Northern Soul immersion...does this venue stand amongst the greats in your opinion?.

Where and when 

[Agentsmith]

I haven't said there's any function to comemmorate that fact....fact is, there should be, especially as it 50 years and there have been past anniversary/reunions, but i see nothing on the horizon at present....in fact, thats a disappointment in itself as something wouldve been in place a good while ago,....i don't know if the main protagonists ( Cats djs ) have anything in mind....they certainly haven't divulged it.

So, as it stands im purely stating the fact its 50 years and ask if people want to comment on that and share any memories, as i said in the intial post, then please do so...and if in the meantime a function is announced to comemmorate the occasion, then all well and good!.

[Lucky One]

It would be great if such an event were to happen if certainly deserves the attention. I was too young to attend the cats but due to living in Wolverhampton all my life many people who lived on the same estate as myself went there and that in turn introduced me to the best music ever.

[Agentsmith]

43 minutes ago, Lucky One said:

It would be great if such an event were to happen if certainly deserves the attention. I was too young to attend the cats but due to living in Wolverhampton all my life many people who lived on the same estate as myself went there and that in turn introduced me to the best music ever.

Agreed but, unfortunately its too late to arrange anything with significant promotion to attract enough people's attention so, its very likely it won't be observed in a proper fashion. Pep used to organize an event, as did Neil Rushton but it looks like theyve given up the ghost...they weren't the only regular djs there in its later years, sadly Max is no longer with us, as for Carl Dene, Mike Hollis, Graham Warr, Bill Black, Basil, Alan Day...i'm not even sure whether theyre aware of the significance of the date...this is classed as one of the legendary clubs, particularly in the early 70's as Northern Soul got going, along with the aforementioned Torch, Wheel and VaVas, they were the forerunner to the advent of the big all nighter the scene required....that turned out to be the Casino....but many of the tunes played there in the first two years at least, had been discovered and played at these venues first. Max was no slouch in obtaining the big numbers before most other djs..with Warr's stash from Miami in 73, a lot of previously unknowns were broken at the Temple street venue, probably before Levine did, at Blackpool.

[Simon T]

.

[Agentsmith]

Played at the Cats to a packed dancefloor

[Torch56]

In Neil Rushton's book, 'Northern Soul Stories', Graham Warr writes that his big haul from Miami was in October 1971 but I thought from memory it was a year later in the autumn of 1972. Suddenly a whole batch of new sounds featured on the playlist: the Glories, Johnny Moore, Earl Jackson, Soul Twins, Sam and Kitty amongst them which I understood Graham had found. He then told Ian Levine the location of his source, who then went there in 1973 and came back with a find of 4,000 records which Ian referred to as the greatest northern soul haul of all time.

Having attended Blackpool Mecca, Up the Junction, the Torch and VaVas in '72-'73, it was very rare that I heard anything that I wasn't already familiar with from the Catacombs.

 

[Agentsmith]

19 hours ago, Torch56 said:

In Neil Rushton's book, 'Northern Soul Stories', Graham Warr writes that his big haul from Miami was in October 1971 but I thought from memory it was a year later in the autumn of 1972. Suddenly a whole batch of new sounds featured on the playlist: the Glories, Johnny Moore, Earl Jackson, Soul Twins, Sam and Kitty amongst them which I understood Graham had found. He then told Ian Levine the location of his source, who then went there in 1973 and came back with a find of 4,000 records which Ian referred to as the greatest northern soul haul of all time.

Having attended Blackpool Mecca, Up the Junction, the Torch and VaVas in '72-'73, it was very rare that I heard anything that I wasn't already familiar with from the Catacombs.

 

It was 73, otherwise the vast majority of what he unearthed, and Levine subsequently hoovered up the rest, wouldve been played at the Torch before it shut....they werent, The Cats and obviously Mecca, were front and centre for breaking these tunes...ive just referred to Neil's and as you said, thats whats in the article that graham wrote for the book....the fact is, JA was the first person in the states, by merely a few weeks before Levine and that didnt happen until at least 73, he said that himself when he was alive..i would doubt he'd have known graham warr then....you don't see any playlists from the Wheel ( which was open in 71 ) containing anything he turned up, and that pretty much applies to the Torch as well as far as i'm aware.

[Agentsmith]

Thats some discrepancy: nearly 2 years?, that s never right!, Anderson wouldve found them if theyd been left there that long....i mean, it can be argued who found what amount....theyre both still alive, they should put the record straight on the timeline, especially between Warr coming across the warehouse and subsequently telling Levine....i think both tallies were significantly more than suggested.

Around 75/6, Rushton shipped a load of stuff back from the states himself, after going over there...i remember the boxes piled up everywhere in his office in Lichfield st, Walsall

[Julianb]

On 31/05/2024 at 07:56, Agentsmith said:

Just about six weeks away from this unique celebration....Wigan has been done...as has the Torch and Wheel...Now the Catacombs reaches a landmark date. I'm sure there are many still alive who attended the venue...care to express your thoughts and share your memories of the music, djs, characters....even pics?...personally, i only saw the last 6 months of it, before its closure but, it was my first proper venue and became a springboard to visiting other venues, and Northern Soul immersion...does this venue stand amongst the greats in your opinion?.

I remember taking Simon Soussan, Chris Tipping ( who financed Simon's trip to the States) and Simon's 'minder' a tall jewish guy who couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag ( as we say in Yorkshire) to the Cats after his 'find' in New York. It got a bit scary and led me to suggest we left pretty damn quick as I realised the crowd were after rolling Simon for his tunes. I was a bit pissed off as I knew Graham, Pep, Blue Max, Alan etc well and I thought maybe they could have intervened, but heigh ho, that's life and record collecting. After our exit, we travelled up to the Torch where Chris Burton and the boys made them welcome ( I already knew Chris and the DJs very well through record dealing).

The SWONS!

[Agentsmith]

2 hours ago, Julianb said:

I remember taking Simon Soussan, Chris Tipping ( who financed Simon's trip to the States) and Simon's 'minder' a tall jewish guy who couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag ( as we say in Yorkshire) to the Cats after his 'find' in New York. It got a bit scary and led me to suggest we left pretty damn quick as I realised the crowd were after rolling Simon for his tunes. I was a bit pissed off as I knew Graham, Pep, Blue Max, Alan etc well and I thought maybe they could have intervened, but heigh ho, that's life and record collecting. After our exit, we travelled up to the Torch where Chris Burton and the boys made them welcome ( I already knew Chris and the DJs very well through record dealing).

The SWONS!

Julian, that story or outcome isnt dissimilar to one Mr. Dewhirst mentioned a while ago, same outcome at Blackpool Mecca...threatened lynching and Ian got him out the backdoor for his own safety.....deffo got people's backs up, back then.

Catacombs was an incredibly atmospheric venue, and the dancers were amazing!

[Ian Parker]

14 hours ago, Agentsmith said:

Around 75/6, Rushton shipped a load of stuff back from the states himself, after going over there...i remember the boxes piled up everywhere in his office in Lichfield st, Walsall

i believe a ton of Frank Beverly , on Sassy, were in that lot.   £3 i paid for mine

[Agentsmith]

Just now, Ian Parker said:

i believe a ton of Frank Beverly , on Sassy, were in that lot.   £3 i paid for mine

Ian, you literally couldnt move in that office for tons of boxes he'd had shipped back, not far off 50 years ago now....

[Torch56]

With regard to Graham Warr's trip(s) to the USA, both Ian Dewhirst and Neil Rushton refer to him making multiple journeys between 1970 and 1973 in the thread, 'Graham Warr Catacombs Discoveries' on this site. If that is accurate, then Graham's reference to a 1971 trip is likely to be valid. I remain convinced that the buzz around the DJ booth at the Cat's about his most exciting haul occurred in the autumn of 1972, though he may have made further trips after that.

Also in that thread is a list of sounds that Graham listed as previously undiscovered, though a number of contributors question some of these.

Whether or not that is the case, a number of said items made it to the playlist at the Torch before it closed in March '73.

I made my first visit there on December 23, 1972 when Oscar Toney Jr was the live act. With the exception of the anthemic Eddie Parker, one of the most popular plays of the night, in term of dance floor reaction was Sam and Kitty. Other items from the list that also featured were Exus Trek, Quick Change Artist, and Angel Baby. From that list I'd estimate that about 50% of the items were played by the time the Torch closed.

[Agentsmith]

41 minutes ago, Torch56 said:

With regard to Graham Warr's trip(s) to the USA, both Ian Dewhirst and Neil Rushton refer to him making multiple journeys between 1970 and 1973 in the thread, 'Graham Warr Catacombs Discoveries' on this site. If that is accurate, then Graham's reference to a 1971 trip is likely to be valid. I remain convinced that the buzz around the DJ booth at the Cat's about his most exciting haul occurred in the autumn of 1972, though he may have made further trips after that.

Also in that thread is a list of sounds that Graham listed as previously undiscovered, though a number of contributors question some of these.

Whether or not that is the case, a number of said items made it to the playlist at the Torch before it closed in March '73.

I made my first visit there on December 23, 1972 when Oscar Toney Jr was the live act. With the exception of the anthemic Eddie Parker, one of the most popular plays of the night, in term of dance floor reaction was Sam and Kitty. Other items from the list that also featured were Exus Trek, Quick Change Artist, and Angel Baby. From that list I'd estimate that about 50% of the items were played by the time the Torch closed.

In which case then, his visits to the states, predate that of Anderson's or Soussan's....not Martin Koppel though, i'm sure Tim said he was stateside in 69. It's funny we only read in articles/books about one trip, and that supposedly resulted in ' the big haul/find ' that lead to Levine hoovering up the rest...the suggestion that several trips occured, may have meant just holidays?, i couldn't hazard a guess at what a flight to America would've cost back then, let alone getting on a plane!, especially with what wages were back in the day...even a record then costing a fiver could be viewed as a weeks wages in most cases so, a flight to the Usa....

As you rightly said, quite a cache of tunes had been discovered and played prior to the Torch closure....Graham's interview for Neil's book relates to a whole bunch of tunes, no one was aware of....they got played at the Cats, which in terms of the Torch closure, is a natural progression....the way he states it makes me conclude these were from the Miami visit and this period surely has to be 73?, late 72?........ that would be like holding his cards close to his chest to not reveal what he'd found, for a period of time.....fact is, he wanted to play them out straight away when he got back, which he duelly did...at the Cats.

If this ' big haul had been found in 71, they would certainly have been played at the Torch...i'm sure you'd agree with that assumption?......crikey!, if that had happened by the time the Casino came about, they wouldve been oldies!!

 

 

[Julianb]

1 hour ago, Agentsmith said:

Julian, that story or outcome isnt dissimilar to one Mr. Dewhirst mentioned a while ago, same outcome at Blackpool Mecca...threatened lynching and Ian got him out the backdoor for his own safety.....deffo got people's backs up, back then.

Catacombs was an incredibly atmospheric venue, and the dancers were amazing!

I believe the trip to Blackpool was after Simon started bootlegging whereas the Cats trip was before then

[Agentsmith]

1 minute ago, Julianb said:

I believe the trip to Blackpool was after Simon started bootlegging whereas the Cats trip was before then

A proper opportunist, is probably the kindest description...the rest would be legit character assassination!, and plenty stood in line waiting to perpetrate it!....

[Torch56]

Re

5 hours ago, Agentsmith said:

In which case then, his visits to the states, predate that of Anderson's or Soussan's....not Martin Koppel though, i'm sure Tim said he was stateside in 69. It's funny we only read in articles/books about one trip, and that supposedly resulted in ' the big haul/find ' that lead to Levine hoovering up the rest...the suggestion that several trips occured, may have meant just holidays?, i couldn't hazard a guess at what a flight to America would've cost back then, let alone getting on a plane!, especially with what wages were back in the day...even a record then costing a fiver could be viewed as a weeks wages in most cases so, a flight to the Usa....

As you rightly said, quite a cache of tunes had been discovered and played prior to the Torch closure....Graham's interview for Neil's book relates to a whole bunch of tunes, no one was aware of....they got played at the Cats, which in terms of the Torch closure, is a natural progression....the way he states it makes me conclude these were from the Miami visit and this period surely has to be 73?, late 72?........ that would be like holding his cards close to his chest to not reveal what he'd found, for a period of time.....fact is, he wanted to play them out straight away when he got back, which he duelly did...at the Cats.

If this ' big haul had been found in 71, they would certainly have been played at the Torch...i'm sure you'd agree with that assumption?......crikey!, if that had happened by the time the Casino came about, they wouldve been oldies!!

 

 

 

[Torch56]

Until I read Neil's book I was under the impression that Graham made the one visit to the US and that was in late '72. However, as you know, he said in the book that he 'first' went to the USA in 1971, implying there were other trips after that. When he talks of the big find in Miami, he is not clear about exactly when that was. Was that '71, or later?

I suspect later because, as you say, if those records had been discovered in '71 then playlists in '72 would have reflected this, and they don't-until the autumn. From that point onwards many of the listed records were being played at the Cat's and the Torch (until its closure) 

The only evidence I have for the original Miami find being in late '72 is a memory of a buzz of excitement around the DJ booth and the change in the playlist that occurred at the same time. I don't recall that happening anytime prior to that, or afterwards to the same degree. Ian Levine is definitive that his big haul was in the summer of '73, which fits that time frame.

I take your point about the cost of flights at that time, and also take into account Neil Rushton's and Ian Dewhirst's assertions that Graham was going to the States from 1970 onwards. All in all, much of the evidence precludes a100% definitive conclusion.

I suppose none of it really matters. All we can say is that it was great to be going to venues in that era and hearing such great sounds, no matter who found them.

[Agentsmith]

4 minutes ago, Torch56 said:

Until I read Neil's book I was under the impression that Graham made the one visit to the US and that was in late '72. However, as you know, he said in the book that he 'first' went to the USA in 1971, implying there were other trips after that. When he talks of the big find in Miami, he is not clear about exactly when that was. Was that '71, or later?

I suspect later because, as you say, if those records had been discovered in '71 then playlists in '72 would have reflected this, and they don't-until the autumn. From that point onwards many of the listed records were being played at the Cat's and the Torch (until its closure) 

The only evidence I have for the original Miami find being in late '72 is a memory of a buzz of excitement around the DJ booth and the change in the playlist that occurred at the same time. I don't recall that happening anytime prior to that, or afterwards to the same degree. Ian Levine is definitive that his big haul was in the summer of '73, which fits that time frame.

I take your point about the cost of flights at that time, and also take into account Neil Rushton's and Ian Dewhirst's assertions that Graham was going to the States from 1970 onwards. All in all, much of the evidence precludes a100% definitive conclusion.

I suppose none of it really matters. All we can say is that it was great to be going to venues in that era and hearing such great sounds, no matter who found them.

Agreed on all points, i suppose you could say, if anything at all, this haul was the catalyst for the explosion of Northern Soul, proper...practically all of what we class as anthems were maybe found then, and 74, including some that turned out to be supreme rarities, thought it wasn't known at the time....JA on the other hand, did more than anyone else to contribute overall, scouring the States at all points of the compass and importing masses of tune and incredible discoveries....Graham's initial find though, has to be ranked as one of the greatest and most important, ever.

[Agentsmith]

Quite honestly, it dosn't look like this venue is going to receive any recognition at all on Saturday 13th July....which is the exact date to the day that it shut its doors for the last time...an absolute travesty and it looks very much like no one is bothered, either way.

I'm no promoter otherwise i'd have taken it on but, the main protagonists regards promotions are busy doing owt else and the other djs who are still alive probably aren't djing anymore either so....any chance of a special celebration is dead in the water...best just remember it for what it was eh?

[Happy Feet]

Just thinking out loud , but if memory serves me right the opening of a certain Alnighter was the final nail , that lead to the closer of the Catacombs, I never made it down unfortunately.

Then again there is no denying that the Alnighter in question for at least the 1st couple or so years was predominantly records that had been played 1st at the Catacombs , and even more so in the room upstairs following its 1st Anniversary , and become the classics that are still cherished today.

Anyway cut to the chase as they say , why could there not have been a" Catsino" 50th Anniversary event , because without one breaking most of the playlist , would the other have got off to flyer and I know a lot of the great dancers at the Casino where regulars at the Catacombs, because I met and knew them at the time .

[Agentsmith]

37 minutes ago, Happy Feet said:

Just thinking out loud , but if memory serves me right the opening of a certain Alnighter was the final nail , that lead to the closer of the Catacombs, I never made it down unfortunately.

Then again there is no denying that the Alnighter in question for at least the 1st couple or so years was predominantly records that had been played 1st at the Catacombs , and even more so in the room upstairs following its 1st Anniversary , and become the classics that are still cherished today.

Anyway cut to the chase as they say , why could there not have been a" Catsino" 50th Anniversary event , because without one breaking most of the playlist , would the other have got off to flyer and I know a lot of the great dancers at the Casino where regulars at the Catacombs, because I met and knew them at the time .

Spot on!, Max laid the club's demise at the hands of Wigan, that's a fact whether it was considered sour grapes at the time, or even now...it probably spelt a premature end for a few more soul nights besides as folk flocked there.....

[Kenb]

[Agentsmith]

1 hour ago, Kenb said:

Example of the tradition for it being remembered. Pep and Neil Rushton, always at odds with each other, never buried the personal hatchet...even the rights to the Cats trademark as subject of resentment...unfortunately the biggest insult of all, looms large....how can a 50th anniversary go totally unmarked?, its a bloody disgrace..ffs, The Casino has been getting global attention for the last two years, fully deserved for sure but how can it possibly be that one of the pioneering clubs, can't receive equal recognition?

[Woodbutcher]

Fill your boots ... lol

 

[Agentsmith]

13 minutes ago, Woodbutcher said:

Fill your boots ... lol

 

Well....that's really impressive...ffs

 

Used to be the wulfrun hall/civic...its even been held in Birmingham!, like wtf has that anything to do with Wolverhampton??...total joke.

[Torch56]

Express and Star, July 6, 1974.

[Agentsmith]

1 hour ago, Torch56 said:

Express and Star, July 6, 1974.

Honestly can't remember this particular ad...but there you have it, attended the friday night event, sadly not the Saturday.