Ron Holden. Is there a Challenge stock issue ?

[Mick Holdsworth]

Something that has puzzled me for a good many years. Did Ron Holden - I'll Forgive And Forget, ever get a release on Challenge, or is it a promo only ?

The only reference I can find is a single comment on 45Cat, saying it does exist, but is rare Anyone able to shed a light in this ?

Thanks in advance.

Edited May 5 by Mick Holdsworth
Corrected souce of comment.

[Blackpoolsoul]

21 hours ago, Mick Holdsworth said:

Something that has puzzled me for a good many years. Did Ron Holden - I'll Forgive And Forget, ever get a release on Challenge, or is it a promo only ?

The only reference I can find is a single comment on (I think) Discogs, saying it does exist, but is rare Anyone able to shed a light in this ?

Thanks in advance.

I have never seen an issue and in his best discography it only shows the Monarch Styrene promo

https://kimsloans.wordpress.com/2020/06/13/spotlight-ron-holden/

Imagine how beautiful it would be though.

 

Edited May 2 by Blackpoolsoul

[Solidsoul]

In all the years I have never seen an issue copy, apart from those modern look-a-likes.

It would be amazing to find a real issue copy!

[Robbk]

I've never seen Holden's Challenge record on a store stocker, only the WDJ issue.  And I was living mainly in LA during 1967, and looked in on Challenge's distributor, from time to time.  Also, I don't remember Dolphin's handling that record, or Crain's, or Sam's, or Flash having it.  Maybe they pressed up a small test run of 500.  But IF so, it's got to be dead rare.  

Ron was a nice guy, but really, he couldn't sing.  He had no range, no flair, and by 1967, his voice was even more limited.  If you listen to "I'll Forgive And Forget", he's almost just talking.  Same on "I Tried".  On both, the excellent instrumentation carries him through.  I can see (hear) why the record shops didn't order it.  I can sing better than he did, and i'm almost 80, and never tried.  On his only hit "Love You So"/"My Babe", the elaborate Rock & Roll instrumentals carried him through.  His singing parts were very short.  Even in 1961, with no voice, he couldn't compete with all the good singers that flooded the market.  By '67, it was impossible for him to chart (Motown, Atlantic, Stax, Chess, The Chicago Sound, the Philadelphia Sound was starting, etc.).  He would have needed to have a catchy, novelty record to grab some sales.

 

 

Edited May 2 by Robbk

[Solidsoul]

17 hours ago, Robbk said:

 

Ron was a nice guy, but really, he couldn't sing.  He had no range, no flair, and by 1967, his voice was even more limited.  If you listen to "I'll Forgive And Forget", he's almost just talking.  Same on "I Tried".  On both, the excellent instrumentation carries him through.  I can see (hear) why the record shops didn't order it.  I can sing better than he did, and i'm almost 80, and never tried.  On his only hit "Love You So"/"My Babe", the elaborate Rock & Roll instrumentals carried him through.  His singing parts were very short.  Even in 1961, with no voice, he couldn't compete with all the good singers that flooded the market.  By '67, it was impossible for him to chart (Motown, Atlantic, Stax, Chess, The Chicago Sound, the Philadelphia Sound was starting, etc.).  He would have needed to have a catchy, novelty record to grab some sales.

 

 

That's an scathing review of the record. You've gone way off-topic. It was about issue copies from a collectors point of view, not about if you like the record or not which ends up being very negative.

Overall the record has a great production, the verve and excitement that's created more than make up for any faults.

These records were made for young vibrant people who wanted a good time and to dance.    Not for us old timers and pensioners to dissect and analyze them for their artistic merits!

Edited May 3 by Solidsoul

[Chalky]

6 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

That's an scathing review of the record. You've gone way off-topic. It was about issue copies from a collectors point of view, not about if you like the record or not which ends up being very negative.

Overall the record has a great production, the verve and excitement created more than make up for any faults.

These records were made for young vibrant people who wanted a good time and to dance.    Not for us old timers and pensioners to dissect and analyze for their artistic merits!

But as old timers, dissect and analyse is all we have left to do 

[Robbk]

On 03/05/2024 at 02:13, Solidsoul said:

That's an scathing review of the record. You've gone way off-topic. It was about issue copies from a collectors point of view, not about if you like the record or not which ends up being very negative.

Overall the record has a great production, the verve and excitement that's created more than make up for any faults.

These records were made for young vibrant people who wanted a good time and to dance.    Not for us old timers and pensioners to dissect and analyze them for their artistic merits!

I don't believe my post was off-topic.  I merely posted the reason why I think there were likely few (if any) store stocker copies pressed up (as absolutely NONE of us has ever seen one, and why I didn't see any at Challenge's L.A. distributor at the time the record would have been out).  It had more to do with why DJs weren't playing the DJ issue, and why I never heard it on KGFJ or XERB, and why distributors weren't getting orders for it, and radio listeners didn't ever know it existed.  One might guess that Challenge Records didn't have the Soul music marketing connections to produce a Soul hit.  But Yvonne Carroll's and The Delicates Challenge releases did fine, charting, and getting a lot of store stockers pressed up, and Johnny Wyatt's at least, got a fair amount pressed up.

I've been a member of this forum since 2006, and I don't remember ever writing something that could be considered rude, or a put down.  That goes for all the other fora I've frequented since 2001.  I certainly didn't mean anything personal.  I guess I phrased it in a harsh way.  I apologise to his friends and family.  I certainly wouldn't  begrudge Ron from having a good start at his singing career, getting a smash hit with "Love You So"/"My Babe", or being able to have a short career of a few years with it.   

My point was that, in my opinion, his vocals on his Challenge record's the two sides didn't have enough spirit or transcending quality to lift the good instrumentals to a level high enough to compete with the really high-quality Soul music on the charts in 1967, to make the DJs want to play it,  or record shops to carry it, and so, the kids never even got a chance to hear it.  And yes, Challenge didn't give this issue enough marketing push to get it heard.

I guess I'm getting mean and insensitive in my old age.  

 

[Solidsoul]

Looks to me like two things have emerged from this topic. 

1. Nobody has any answer to the original question. 2. And a lot of people seem to want to hate "I'll Forgive and Forget" by Ron Holden.

Oh happy day's! 

Edited May 5 by Solidsoul

[Tlscapital]

The 'X' file factor... Nobody has answered it because nobody on here has seen one yet. The proof in such case can only be delivered by bringing one. No body, no murder case. It doesn't mean that there is no murder. It only means that there's no case.

RobbK's explanation aimed to point out (subjectively too) as to why maybe the record never got beyond the promotional stage due to Ron Holden's poor vocal performance. And that even radios dee-jays were not keen to push it up. If it was up to him the same.

[Mick Holdsworth]

Thanks to all for your comments. It seems the answer is "almost" certainly that no stock copy exists, or at least never released to the public. (Some copies could have been manufactured in anticipation, but destoyed if the promo fell flat for whatever reason).

I'll use this comment to hightlight that it was 45cat, not Disccogs, where I saw the original comment. Scroll dow to gino-nottingham . . .

https://www.45cat.com/record/59360us

 

 

[Chalky]

6 hours ago, Mick Holdsworth said:

Thanks to all for your comments. It seems the answer is "almost" certainly that no stock copy exists, or at least never released to the public. (Some copies could have been manufactured in anticipation, but destoyed if the promo fell flat for whatever reason).

I'll use this comment to hightlight that it was 45cat, not Disccogs, where I saw the original comment. Scroll dow to gino-nottingham . . .

https://www.45cat.com/record/59360us

 

 

I doubt he has ever seen one and just using hearsay

[Robbk]

2 hours ago, Chalky said:

I doubt he has ever seen one and just using hearsay

I doubt it, too, as his wording is vague.  If he really had seen it with his own eyes, he'd have mentioned the circumstances, and who had it.  But, we can only guess whether it was ever pressed up until we see one, or read confirmation by official documentation, or testimony from someone from the company who we  know was there at the time, and whose memory we can trust.  I was around at the time (although not on the inside), and my memory used to be excellent, but now sometimes I conflate memories into confusing one memory for another.  So, in some instances actual evidence will turn up later, and others never will, and we can only make "best guesses" based on the "circumstantial evidence" we have.  In this case, we must assume that it is more likely than not that no store stock pressing was made, but not certain that a small, test run wasn't made, or that a middling run wasn't made , but never marketed successfully, and destroyed, or unbelievably still stored somewhere (but with water damage, heat damage, or dust damage), or a small, test pressing was made, and the number of them now in people's hands is very, very small, and further that those collectors that DO have one are not in communication with The greater Worldwide Soul Music record collectors' scene.

[Chalky]

15 minutes ago, Robbk said:

I doubt it, too, as his wording is vague.  If he really had seen it with his own eyes, he'd have mentioned the circumstances, and who had it.  But, we can only guess whether it was ever pressed up until we see one, or read confirmation by official documentation, or testimony from someone from the company who we  know was there at the time, and whose memory we can trust.  I was around at the time (although not on the inside), and my memory used to be excellent, but now sometimes I conflate memories into confusing one memory for another.  So, in some instances actual evidence will turn up later, and others never will, and we can only make "best guesses" based on the "circumstantial evidence" we have.  In this case, we must assume that it is more likely than not that no store stock pressing was made, but not certain that a small, test run wasn't made, or that a middling run wasn't made , but never marketed successfully, and destroyed, or unbelievably still stored somewhere (but with water damage, heat damage, or dust damage), or a small, test pressing was made, and the number of them now in people's hands is very, very small, and further that those collectors that DO have one are not in communication with The greater Worldwide Soul Music record collectors' scene.

He has posted inaccuracies on there before

[Lfcjunkie]

Strangely enough I came across RH record at home yesterday on the white Challenge demo it brought back a memory of a conversation I was having with a mate about this 45 when a older collector heard our conversation and  interrupted us saying the white demo was a bootleg and the original was a black Challenge 45 ,he was inferring he had one ,him being older than us we assumed he knew better (even though he was off the scene this was around 1990) 10 years later or so he became a returnee and was djing at a local do when he was playing Ruby Andrews "just loving you" the quality wasn't good so I approached the decks he was playing a carver/boot ,alas for me, all his credibility went out the window, after me recalling The RH conversation and his castigation of bootlegs blah blah...if I see him anywhere I'll ask about the RH 45 no doubt he was talking bullshit  ... dunno if I'll "forgive and forget" though lol 

[Mike]

 

site search leads to the below,  from a 2005 topic 

 

Quote

 

there are issues ,Hovis had 3 or 4 copies about the same time he discovered court davis

 

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/18503-price-please/

 

[Chalky]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

 

site search leads to the below,  from a 2005 topic 

 

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/18503-price-please/

 

My memory is worse than a goldfish…

[Robbk]

On 05/05/2024 at 15:47, Lfcjunkie said:

Strangely enough I came across RH record at home yesterday on the white Challenge demo it brought back a memory of a conversation I was having with a mate about this 45 when a older collector heard our conversation and  interrupted us saying the white demo was a bootleg and the original was a black Challenge 45 ,he was inferring he had one ,him being older than us we assumed he knew better (even though he was off the scene this was around 1990) 10 years later or so he became a returnee and was djing at a local do when he was playing Ruby Andrews "just loving you" the quality wasn't good so I approached the decks he was playing a carver/boot ,alas for me, all his credibility went out the window, after me recalling The RH conversation and his castigation of bootlegs blah blah...if I see him anywhere I'll ask about the RH 45 no doubt he was talking bullshit  ... dunno if I'll "forgive and forget" though lol 

I can't remember seeing a legitimate late '60s Challenge record with a black label.

Edited May 7 by Robbk

[Frankie Crocker]

4 hours ago, Robbk said:

I can't remember seeing a legitimate Challenge record with a black label.

Never seen a black Ron Holden but Jerry Fuller’s ‘Double Life’ appeared in a black issue format as evidenced on Popsike. Both Ron’s and Jerry’s offerings were storming biggies back in the day, booted due to popularity and still fondly remembered in some quarters.

[Tlscapital]

4 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Never seen a black Ron Holden but Jerry Fuller’s ‘Double Life’ appeared in a black issue format as evidenced on Popsike. Both Ron’s and Jerry’s offerings were storming biggies back in the day, booted due to popularity and still fondly remembered in some quarters.

Jerry Fuller was a popular artist. Who unlike Ron could sing. So yes stock copies were evidently commercialized to satisfy this popular artist fans base. Not found of his gear leaning toward a predominantly teeny audience evidently not that soulful orientated. Even if this single attempting to 'jump' onto the 'Motown' craze did not really succeed in the USA it did for the soul freaks in the northern hemisphere of the UK... And me.

[Petesi]

IMO. Both of the above mentioned were monster plays in the mid 70`s and were staple dance floor fillers at most events I went to, they rarely get played today but are cracking dancer material and those of us that can recall will always be up and dancing when they are played... whatever the label says.

[Benji]

16 hours ago, Robbk said:

I can't remember seeing a legitimate Challenge record with a black label.

Even though green was probably the predominant colour there are plenty of legit black Challenge 45s around. Knickerbockers, Champs, etc.

[Solidsoul]

18 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Jerry Fuller was a popular artist. Who unlike Ron could sing. So yes stock copies were evidently commercialized to satisfy this popular artist fans base. Not found of his gear leaning toward a predominantly teeny audience evidently not that soulful orientated. Even if this single attempting to 'jump' onto the 'Motown' craze did not really succeed in the USA it did for the soul freaks in the northern hemisphere of the UK... And me.

Well if you don't like the record that's ok, but stop trying to spoil it for people who do like it!

Edited May 7 by Solidsoul

[Trev Thomas]

26 minutes ago, Solidsoul said:

Well if you don't like the record that's ok, but stop trying to spoil it for people who do like it!

how's he spoiling the record ??? it still sounds the same whether he likes it or not

[Robbk]

6 hours ago, Benji said:

Even though green was probably the predominant colour there are plenty of legit black Challenge 45s around. Knickerbockers, Champs, etc.

This is interesting to me.  I don't remember ever seeing those.  They must have come from a single pressing plant in an area I've never been.  The only part of The US or Canada I never was during the mid-to-late 1960s was The Deep South of USA Mississippi. Alabama, Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina).  Maybe the black labels were printed only in a Miami plant?  Can someone post a scan of one?  I Do remember some black Challenges, -but only early ones, from 1958-60 by The Champs and a few late '50s artists.   I would have guessed that the 1967 Ron Holden would have been green if pressed at Monarch.

Edited May 7 by Robbk

[Mick Holdsworth]

7 minutes ago, Robbk said:

 Maybe the black labels were printed only in a Miami plant?  Can someone post a scan of one?

 

[Chalky]

3 hours ago, Robbk said:

This is interesting to me.  I don't remember ever seeing those.  They must have come from a single pressing plant in an area I've never been.  The only part of The US or Canada I never was during the mid-to-late 1960s was The Deep South of USA Mississippi. Alabama, Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina).  Maybe the black labels were printed only in a Miami plant?  Can someone post a scan of one?  I Do remember some black Challenges, -but only early ones, from 1958-60 by The Champs and a few late '50s artists.   I would have guessed that the 1967 Ron Holden would have been green if pressed at Monarch.

Jerry Fuller issue is a Monarch press. 

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

Jerry Fuller issue is a Monarch press. 

OF COURSE THAT black Challenge label was printed in L.A. and all over USA.  It ran longer than the green one.  I can't believe I forgot it ever existed.  Other than the auburn 1958-61 label, this black one should have been the one I've seen on the most individual 45s.  I guess I'm becoming senile - losing long-term memory.  That's pretty scary to me.  Up to now it's been mostly losing short-term memory.  

Worse yet, now, remembering this black label, I'm seeing Ron Holden's name in those block letters on that black label, in my mind's eye.  So, even with a gun to my head in Russian Roulette, I now would bet that I've seen at least one black store stocker issue 45 of Holden's '67 record, because I feel it is much more likely that I really did see it, rather than my memory playing tricks on me.  Still, I am not 100% sure.  So, I'll still say it was likely VERY rare, as I can't remember seeing it at the distributor, or in the major South L.A. record shops.  And so, we still can't know whether it really existed, or not, for sure, until we have some concrete proof, such as a scan, or documentation.  

[Geeselad]

Rob's points on the quality of the vocals are obviously relevant to the thread, as we speculate on if a record was actually released to the general public and why it my not have been. Comerciallity would have been the paramount factor!

[Solidsoul]

11 minutes ago, Geeselad said:

Rob's points on the quality of the vocals are obviously relevant to the thread, as we speculate on if a record was actually released to the general public and why it my not have been. Comerciallity would have been the paramount factor!

So that means every rare record must have crap vocal's!  That's why nobody wanted to buy it!  So now we know why Ty Karim and The Cashmeres, for example, never sold many records!!!

Edited May 12 by Solidsoul

[Geeselad]

6 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

So that means every rare record must have crap vocal's!  That's why nobody wanted to buy it!  So now we know why Ty Karim and The Cashmeres, for example, never sold many records!!!

Rob wrote quite an honest review of the artists career and I think he was spot on. I just played his hit, the guy probably only sings for 30 % of the record! However, I love IFAF, the package of his albeit limited vocals works well with the great instrumentation, and as a northern tune. The other artists you mention have great qualities but their own contextual reasons for rarity. They all do! It's should be a nuanced  discussion with room for critical thoughts. 

Edited May 13 by Geeselad