Sam and Kitty - Who was Kitty?

[Tlscapital]

21 hours ago, George G said:

Two members of the Cleveland group were killed on Jan 7 1970, Joseph Moore and Thomas Perkins 'the same day their record ('I Can't Find Her' on DeBrossard) arrived in local stores', according to the newspaper story. The group had 4-5 members and were together from 1969-72 or so. I have more info but not handy at the moment. The killed members were replaced. Here's a pic of the original group.

Taking to OP to a slide two seconds could that (right photo column, middle section to the left) be Kitty from Sam (Singing) & Kitty (grove) 'I've got something good ' fame ?

Edited April 21 by Tlscapital

[Robbk]

11 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Taking to OP to a slide two seconds could that (right photo column, middle section to the left) be Kitty from Sam (Singing) & Kitty (grove) 'I've got something good ' fame ?

I seem to remember that Sam and Kitty lived and worked out of Chicago during the mid '60s.

Edited April 21 by Robbk

[Shinehead]

12 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Taking to OP to a slide two seconds could that (right photo column, middle section to the left) be Kitty from Sam (Singing) & Kitty (grove) 'I've got something good ' fame ?

 

Looking at the picture and the caption says " Exotic Miss Kitty" I get the impression I Got Something Good was not this lady's song but she could have used it as a number in her act

[Tlscapital]

10 minutes ago, Shinehead said:

Looking at the picture and the caption says " Exotic Miss Kitty" I get the impression I Got Something Good was not this lady's song but she could have used it as a number in her act

I know but Miss Kitty Grove...

[Shinehead]

Do not get the link between Exotic Miss Kitty and Miss Kitty Grove other than both been called Kitty tenuous at best.

 

Edited April 21 by Shinehead

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Shinehead said:

Do not get the link between Exotic Miss Kitty and Miss Kitty Grove other than both been called Kitty tenuous at best.

 

I would imagine she is an exotic dancer…..or stripper in these parts lol and not our singer

[Shinehead]

1 minute ago, Chalky said:

I would imagine she is an exotic dancer…..or stripper in these parts lol and not our singer

Exactly and how could the two Kitty's be even thought to be the same person

[Tlscapital]

If ever someone knows for fact that it is or it is not Kitty of Sam & Kitty or has better constructive doubt and or leads 'because and because'... Appreciated. 

Edited April 21 by Tlscapital

[Shinehead]

The publisher of the Singing Sam song on Dan-dy featuring Miss Kitty Grove is Fairshake, judging by the picture of "Exotic Miss Kitty" that could be a link

Edited April 23 by Shinehead

[Robbk]

6 hours ago, Chalky said:

I would imagine she is an exotic dancer…..or stripper in these parts lol and not our singer

Absolutely!  The odds of them being the same person are nil.  Where is a connection?  There was probably a "Kitty" within a mile of every nightclub venue in Chicago, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Northern and Southern New Jersey, and Metro L.A.  

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, Shinehead said:

The publisher of the Singing Sam song on Dan-dy featuring "Miss Kitty Grove " is Fairshake, judging by the picture of "Exotic Miss Kitty" that could be a link

The shaking joke aside, as far as I remember, Fairshake Music represented the partnership of Jack Daniels(Bright Star/4Brothers) and Larry Dandridge (Dan-Dy Records), which puts Sam & Kitty squarely in Chicago.  There was lots of crossover in the music business between Chicago and Cleveland during the 1950s and '60s.  Maybe in the exotic dancer field, too?  

[Blackpoolsoul]

19 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

If ever someone knows for fact that it is or it is not Kitty of Sam & Kitty or has better constructive doubt and or leads 'because and because'... Appreciated. 

Willie Weems story on here 2020 quotes 

"Then there was Sam and Kitty,

Kitty (Katherine) Grove (nee Kitty Stewart), was an ex-lover of Willie`s, whom he had met in social circles, Kitty had become a creative inspiration to Willie, giving Willie the heart felt inspiration to write songs about how he felt about Kitty. Kitty now divorced lives in Decater, on the outskirts of Atlanta, Ga. She now sings gospel at her local church."

[Shinehead]

25 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Willie Weems story on here 2020 quotes 

"Then there was Sam and Kitty,

Kitty (Katherine) Grove (nee Kitty Stewart), was an ex-lover of Willie`s, whom he had met in social circles, Kitty had become a creative inspiration to Willie, giving Willie the heart felt inspiration to write songs about how he felt about Kitty. Kitty now divorced lives in Decater, on the outskirts of Atlanta, Ga. She now sings gospel at her local church."

I remember a quire in depth article in the mag  "In The Basement" on the  4 Brothers and Bright Star labels maybe that might shed a bit more info on Kitty, sadly I binned all my copies a few years ago but someone might have a copy to peruse and check if anything else is in print about this lady.

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Shinehead said:

I remember a quire in depth article in the mag  "In The Basement" on the  4 Brothers and Bright Star labels maybe that might shed a bit more info on Kitty, sadly I binned all my copies a few years ago but someone might have a copy to peruse and check if anything else is in print about this lady.

Mine are in lock up at minute but will try and find it when I call there. 
 

Discogs has Kitty as an alias for Edith brown who recorded on 4 Brothers but that is wrong if the comments on 45cat are anything to go by.  
 

maybe the kitty talk should be a separate topic?

Edited April 22 by Chalky

[Tlscapital]

3 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Willie Weems story on here 2020 quotes 

"Then there was Sam and Kitty,

Kitty (Katherine) Grove (nee Kitty Stewart), was an ex-lover of Willie`s, whom he had met in social circles, Kitty had become a creative inspiration to Willie, giving Willie the heart felt inspiration to write songs about how he felt about Kitty. Kitty now divorced lives in Decater, on the outskirts of Atlanta, Ga. She now sings gospel at her local church."

Either not the same Kitty character or a revelation for a "change" of life from the 'cabaret' to be wed and divorced to the 'church'.

This prime article gives us different photos of many not pointing who's who but if ever the similitude is as easy (maybe too easy) as striking somehow.

Actually they might not be related at all too. But could it...

[Shinehead]

1 hour ago, Tlscapital said:

Either not the same Kitty character or a revelation for a "change" of life from the 'cabaret' to be wed and divorced to the 'church'.

This prime article gives us different photos of many not pointing who's who but if ever the similitude is as easy (maybe too easy) as striking somehow.

Actually they might not be related at all too. But could it...

The lady on the left is the dancer but have you any idea who the lady on the right is ? and if not why are you linking the pictures to a singer from Chicago.

Edited April 22 by Shinehead

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

30 minutes ago, Shinehead said:

The lady on the left is the dancer but have you any idea who the lady on the right is ?and if not why are you linking the pictures to a singer from Chicago.

Because RobbK pointed out above that based on record information Sam and Kitty would be Chigaco based. 

[Tlscapital]

7 hours ago, Shinehead said:

The lady on the left is the dancer but have you any idea who the lady on the right is ?and if not why are you linking the pictures to a singer from Chicago.

Am not linking them from the beginning. Only asking if anyone knows better if she could be or not one and the same 'Kitty' girl ? Ohio and Illinois are neighboring States...

The New Pilne Lounge advert featuring the Cleveland, OH Rotations and the 'Exotic Miss Kitty' should date from 1970 or 1971. So some 5 years after the Sam & Kitty 45's.

The girl picture here above on the right was 'highlighted' with other pictures of her seemingly in the Willie Weems article. Since they look 'similar' enough I juxtaposed them.

Could both these be Katherine 'Miss Kitty Grove' Stewart ? Those pictures together with such 'stage' nick-name tells us that this / these girl (s) were 'center stage' attraction (s).

Now I get that this quest seems not only 'out of the blue' but also 'out of nowhere' without other solid back-up infos relating both pictures. But one quest seeks exactly that ; facts.

Then if not leads to confirm or infirm the possibilities. Besides the 'unlikely' we didn't get a negative. But on the other hand maybe with this Willie Weems article lead we have our Miss Kitty Grove.

The link with the first B / W picture is not that relevant to me. To know that Singing Sam was Leon Dandridge and & Kitty was Katherine Stewart is most satisfying for me at least. Now confirmation on the Kitty hat ?

Edited April 22 by Tlscapital

[Shinehead]

4 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Am not linking them from the beginning. Only asking if anyone knows better if she could be or not one and the same 'Kitty' girl ? Ohio and Illinois are neighboring States...

The New Pilne Lounge advert featuring the Cleveland, OH Rotations and the 'Exotic Miss Kitty' should date from 1970 or 1971. So some 5 years after the Sam & Kitty 45's.

The girl picture here above on the right was 'highlighted' with other pictures of her seemingly in the Willie Weems article. Since they look 'similar' enough I juxtaposed them.

Could both these be Katherine 'Miss Kitty Grove' Stewart ? Those pictures together with such 'stage' nick-name tells us that this / these girl (s) were 'center stage' attraction (s).

Now I get that this quest seems not only 'outrun the blue' but also 'out of nowhere' without other solid back-up infos relating both pictures. But one quest seeks exactly that ; facts.

Then if not leads to confirm or infirm the possibilities. Besides the 'unlikely' we didn't get a negative. But on the other hand maybe with this Willie Weems article lead we have our Miss Kitty Grove.

The link with the first B / W picture is not that relevant to me. To know that Singing Sam was Leon Dandridge and & Kitty was Katherine Stewart is most satisfying for me at least. Now confirmation on the Kitty hat ?

I get that we know who Kitty from Sam & Kitty is I just cannot fathom out why you took a picture of a exotic dancer from a Rotations concert poster and linked her to Kitty Groves the singer other than sharing a first name. Think your imagination ran away with you on this one.

 

 

I

 

[Tlscapital]

16 minutes ago, Shinehead said:

I get that we know who Kitty from Sam & Kitty is I just cannot fathom out why you took a picture of a exotic dancer from a Rotations concert poster and linked her to Kitty Groves the singer other than sharing a first name. Think your imagination ran away with you on this one.

 

 

I

 

OK well I didn't know who Kitty was. Now I know. I wondered if and you think that...

[Chalky]

I think the word “exotic” is all the clues you need to imagine what kind of act she is.  Most clubs, just like in the UK had a variety of acts, strippers, dancers, comedians and of course the musical acts.

[Shinehead]

1 hour ago, Tlscapital said:

OK well I didn't know who Kitty was. Now I know. I wondered if and you think that...

Hopefully you drop the idea she could have been an exotic dancer.

I found it a bit disrespectful.

Edited April 22 by Shinehead

[Johnlloyd]

From In The Basement 47.

[Chalky]

40 minutes ago, Johnlloyd said:

From In The Basement 47.

Quote from 45 cat that Neil granger made….

I talked to Willie Weems on 10/11/20 who wrote the song and he confirms that Sam & Kitty were Leroy Dandridge & Kitty Grove, Edith Brown wasn't on this recording.

 

[Rick Cooper]

The other side (the actual A side) -Love Is The Greatest was a popular record amongst the Suriname collectors in The Netherlands. Looking at the YouTube video for this Willie Weems identified Kitty same as Chalky's quote from Neil Granger's interview. Shame Willie didn't go in to any more details.

 

 

[Kesalocasoul]

I can't find any reference to Sam and Kitty in Robert Pruter's  book "Chicago Soul" (Bayou Press 1991), but he did refer to them in an article on Four Brothers/Bright Star/Hit Sound for Juke Blues #14 (Winter 1988/89) and in a discography in the following issue #15 (Spring 1989).  He names them as LeRoy Dandridge and Edith Brown, perhaps the source of the information for the "In The Basement" article.

[Munchkin]

7 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Either not the same Kitty character or a revelation for a "change" of life from the 'cabaret' to be wed and divorced to the 'church'.

This prime article gives us different photos of many not pointing who's who but if ever the similitude is as easy (maybe too easy) as striking somehow.

Actually they might not be related at all too. But could it...

Kitty Grove AKA Stewart is the lady on the right side,  on above photos, below are a few photos of Kitty at various ages including first photo with willie Weems.. Edith Brown was a neice of Jack Daniels, Kitty is still alive and living on the outskirts of Atlanta..

Kitty still visits chicago for family events, her brother is on facebook, both are still in contack with Willie Weems

Edited April 22 by Munchkin

[Munchkin]

Hope above helps clear things up, Photo below is Mr Willie Weems and myself when we met up in 2022.. willie is now in his 80`s and is a carer for his mother who in her late 90`s possible now 100..

[Tlscapital]

14 minutes ago, Munchkin said:

Kitty Grove AKA Stewart is the lady on the right side,  on above photos, below are a few photos of Kitty at various ages including first photo with willie Weems.. Edith Brown was a neice of Jack Daniels, Kitty is still alive and living on the outskirts of Atlanta..

Kitty still visits chicago for family events, her brother is on facebook, both are still in contack with Willie Weems

Thanks a bunch. I was about to PM you (to ask if it was as I thought Kitty on those pics in the Willie Weems article) while I got stuck struggling with other urgent work bits and so you beat me to it. Wonderful. and those extra picks are just... Fantastic ! And to cut short to the 'legend' of Kitty being another alias to Edith Brown sets the record straight once and for good within the family tree of Jack Daniels on top of it. Smooth.

[Shinehead]

Thank you munchin for the pics and info much appreciated. 

[Tlscapital]

5 hours ago, Shinehead said:

Hopefully you drop the idea she could have been an exotic dancer.

I found it a bit disrespectful.

No I didn't drop anything. I was asking. Answers given I take. And so I did.

Why would I be disrespectful toward Miss Kitty Groove ?  How and where ?

And if someone found the contemplation of Miss Kitty Grove to possibly be an exotic dancer as my quest could have suggested to be I'm sorry. Such was not my intend. But I don't disgrace exotic dancers as persons necessary as likes of below moral values none the less or unworthy of respect in that regard only.

Edited April 22 by Tlscapital

[Guest]

It has been awhile since I read or referred to the article that I wrote for 'In the Basement' # 57. My memory of it is now faded but I do recall that I used the Pruter article as one of the references. I also recall contacting Pruter with some questions. At that time he was no longer interested in the subject matter and didn't respond to my questions. 

After the article was printed I was contacted via the magazine by a relative (her son?) of Edith Brown. He confirmed that she wasn't Kitty or indeed married to Leroy Dandridge. He told me that she had spent time at Chess studios as a session vocalist and had contacts throughout the Chicago music industry including with Weems. No doubt I would have requested some photos but the correspondence turned out to be fleeting.

Edith Brown died in October 2020. A brief obituary was published on-line.

https://www.wallacebroadview.com/obituary/Edith-Brown

 

 

Edited April 23 by Dukeofburgundy

[Kesalocasoul]

Thanks for this.  Sad to learn of Edith Brown's passing.

Shame no one took up Willie Barney's offer to reissue all of the Four Brothers material (final paragraph of the article in Juke Blues #14).

 

[Kesalocasoul]

Alas, the end of the second clip perpetuates the myth...

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Kesalocasoul said:

Alas, the end of the second clip perpetuates the myth...

That’s what you get when you see something on line and simply repeat it. Oh it’s on the internet it must be true  

[Steve G]

Excellent info and photos Munchkin. Thanks.

[Tlscapital]

16 minutes ago, Chalky said:

That’s what you get when you see something on line and simply repeat it. Oh it’s on the internet it must be true  

Same from books (where this 'legend' took root) or all (mainstream too) media (propaganda in disguise), schools and Universities (tainted and made up history and "human science" theories). But likely with those last at least they are edited from a responsible disclosed source able to answer. On tintenet not always. True.

[Guest]

We are dealing with arcane matters here. I doubt anyone at the centre of these events in the 1960s could have imagined that anyone would be writing about them getting on for sixty years later.

The Websphere is certainly the province of saints and rogues but it is possible to correct misinformation as we have just done. We now know what happened to Edith Brown and Kitty Groves. There is great knowledge on this site and the truth is out there.

[Tlscapital]

Exactly. And so I've already submitted these revisions as disclosed here on this matter for both Edith Brown and Sam & Kitty entries on Discogs to learn this morning that they were accepted both. Spread out the truth ! Good golly I feel like I'm on a Holly mission now ! LOL

[Chalky]

11 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Exactly. And so I've already submitted these revisions as disclosed here on this matter for both Edith Brown and Sam & Kitty entries on Discogs to learn this morning that they were accepted both. Spread out the truth ! Good golly I feel like I'm on a Holly mission now ! LOL

well done, the truth is out there 

[Chalky]

On 22/04/2024 at 20:37, Munchkin said:

Hope above helps clear things up, Photo below is Mr Willie Weems and myself when we met up in 2022.. willie is now in his 80`s and is a carer for his mother who in her late 90`s possible now 100..

great info Kev