BBC Radio Four Woman's Hour: Northern Soul feature

[Tobytyke]

This could become this decades "Elgin Marbles"

Should we all post our records back to America? To ease our consciences. 

Edited February 2 by Tobytyke
Addition

[Simon T]

1 hour ago, Tlscapital said:

Terms and words choices ; culture and economy are interlinked all through history. I'm afraid that those records were bought and nor robbed per se and that white people victimizing some more black folks... Huh !

Are you really going to put guilt on every purchased records ? As for 'appropriation' what about borrowed or influenced from rather ? A dance move and / or taking an "over easy" stance for a far away social cause ?

Is all that morally 'punishable' ? Pathetic maybe it could be. Even if that's your way of seeing it using those ideological 'filters' to me these terms are just too insidious and unhappy for one to live with love for that.

For one to have some political or social awareness of the world we live in is one thing. To make any subculture an ideological battle ground is never a good thing. Imposed ideology follows and it's despicable.

What I've found at one time on top of the sounds that were my treat was an 'underground' night life with people dedicated to that music with no dress code, age discrimination and socio-economic barriers.

As opposed to other scenes I encountered back then and off which I grew tired from. And racism if you want to go there is not the white man's privilege FWIW. Then the Y2K NS revival came and all went down wrong...

Preferring to agree I guess as like you I love some of what still remain of that 'underground' (a 'discreet' not plotting cult of devotees to sounding materials outside of the authorities control scope) scene nowadays.

That have taken too much overground float for too long now and that some seems to do everything they can to keep it that way. This is where the issue lies for me. That is consumerism at the service of the rotten egos.

What f*ck are you on?

[Chalky]

11 hours ago, Happy Feet said:

If I'm not mistaken, a few of the artists moved to Europe and the UK where their music was appreciated more than in the states .

Spoken to many artists have as others, and many more besides are grateful for the scene giving them the recognition they failed to get at home. 

[Bloodseed]

8 hours ago, Mark S said:

Just being pragmatic, there's nothing anybody can do about this. 

Years ago there were discussions on here abouut encouraging new blood we can't control what they then do this was bound to happen in this new media savvy age. 

My personal veiw is when I die the scene can die with me never bothered me about encourageing new blood those that do usually have a vested interest. 

I believe that Levanna doesn't mean to cause harm as do many of the big DJ's but by sticking her head above the parrapet those intentions are then manipulated and distorted by the media, exprerience has shown this many times over the years the media can't be trusted ever so why people that purport to care about the scene don't learn is beyond me. 

Naivety or narcissistic tendencies are my only conclusion sadly. 

 

 

Indeed   Music and promoting it should be the key here  The music will either entice people or it won’t it’s up to the individual to choose  again going back to the youngsters us older ones have to remember what it was like to have heard rare soul tunes when we were that age so all this is a generation thing and just done differently now but the heartbeat of it is still the same 

[Chalky]

8 hours ago, Mark S said:

Just being pragmatic, there's nothing anybody can do about this. 

Years ago there were discussions on here abouut encouraging new blood we can't control what they then do this was bound to happen in this new media savvy age. 

My personal veiw is when I die the scene can die with me never bothered me about encourageing new blood those that do usually have a vested interest. 

I believe that Levanna doesn't mean to cause harm as do many of the big DJ's but by sticking her head above the parrapet those intentions are then manipulated and distorted by the media, exprerience has shown this many times over the years the media can't be trusted ever so why people that purport to care about the scene don't learn is beyond me. 

Naivety or narcissistic tendencies are my only conclusion sadly. 

 

 

They aren’t naive, they’ve been around long enough. Narcissistic yes. They are also the ones doing the manipulating and distorting not the media. if it was simply for the love of the music they would simply just get on with it quietly and avoid all the controversy, neither would they troll, abuse and insult others both openly and via private messages on social media using fake or anonymous accounts. 

[Speedlimit]

On 15/01/2024 at 18:50, Timbo58 said:

Eve A is 'Levannas' mum & co hosts the Bristol NSC events.

AFAIAA she was connected with Stafford 'Top of the world', at some point -just what I've heard anyway.

The Edwin Starr story aside, it simply isn't credible to say Bristol was a NS black hole before the millennium - nothing about Yate, the ice rink all-nighters or even little events of which there were loads on a regular basis in the city throughout the 80's with a few even popping up since -including some which ran for years & were pretty well attended - stuff like go-go children allnighters etc.

It's pretty ironic to have such a seeming poor memory really, as she had 3 Bristol NS DJs at her own gig last weekend, at least 1 of who has been on the local scene for decades.

Oops.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Connected with top of the world  hmm   I went to everyone  at top of the world  and like a few others on here .it was a close knit scene everyone  knew everyone   and I for one don't remember  her .  Made up history .  There's a certain person  in Nottingham  who appeared  on a  programme  about  northern    years back  claiming  to have gone the casino  . They never travelled  up on any of the coaches  or cars with the notts crowd  and would have been about 12 lol 

 

[Paul-s]

14 hours ago, Bloodseed said:

Well said 

I have worked closely with BNSC and we guest there  in January 

having got to know Eve Levanna and these up and coming kids I can vouch that they are trying to hold up the scene as many people are now getting older and it needs this injection 

I have been involved or started this great soul scene journey way back in mid 70s and am impressed as of any time in what they are trying to achieve 

we support each other here in Bristol ( I’ve been here since 1990s )  Go Go Children was a fore runner other than Yate that kept it going down here 

furthermore talking to these kids they are knowledgeable and so enthusiastic about this music and that in essence is the reality 

people judge but never go so it’s a bit hypocritical in my eyes keep going Eve Levanna and co because if you don’t the scene will die because people have casted stones and not give it a chance 

 

 

Totally misguided and I will soon share some stuff that will open a few eyes to the game..

The "needs new blood" cliche and "it will die" (as Levine pronounced in the 80's) are ridiculous statements to allow the middle class co-optation of NS culture. 

From the PMs I have had in other forums, BNSC definitely don't support other clubs in Bristol. And i have plenty of PMs that share their bullying messages to anyone who critiques their club. Its disgusting behaviour.

You can evidence that fact that they are narcissistic, and non inclusive, from the BBC Woman's hour stuff where Eve declares that Bristol had no NS before BNSC and her own magnificence. Also, the fact that she states she is taking it into the 21st century is a total insult to the scene, other promoters and young attendees. Its a business model and an opportunistic one at that. The pair were skateboard enthusiast s and the Pharrell thing presnted a business opportunity that they jumped at. It has absolutely no soul behind it. 

People judge yes, and never go precisely because of their entitled and arrogant attitude. Also, drinks on the dance floor, dodgy dance classes, silly business soul t-shirts, and dodgy vinyl.

I've also heard from many that they are 'encouraged" to not attend other venues, and that many a bootleg is played, and in order to validate that they declare that those into original vinyl are elitist.
The son Shaffaer is apparently a main culprit and is also being groomed into a ND Dj by the firm.
As you can clearly see from the Charly bio...she declares herself a 'Celebutante'....I don't remember those types being a part of the scene, do you? I do remember musicians being celebrities when they played live though.

You have obviously been influenced by the NS influencers and thats a choice and good luck with it.

I started my soul journey same time as you and never stopped going out, around the country and abroad, through the decades of moving forward..including into the 21st century (no celebutantes required or needed) and I have never been so unimpressed by anything as this fakery and co-optation of the NS scene.

Casting stones? Ive researched this outfit for 10 years, its evidenced critique, not criticism or throwing stones....

[Paul-s]

5 hours ago, Paul-s said:

Totally misguided and I will soon share some stuff that will open a few eyes to the game..

The "needs new blood" cliche and "it will die" (as Levine pronounced in the 80's) are ridiculous statements to allow the middle class co-optation of NS culture. 

From the PMs I have had in other forums, BNSC definitely don't support other clubs in Bristol. And i have plenty of PMs that share their bullying messages to anyone who critiques their club. Its disgusting behaviour.

You can evidence that fact that they are narcissistic, and non inclusive, from the BBC Woman's hour stuff where Eve declares that Bristol had no NS before BNSC and her own magnificence. Also, the fact that she states she is taking it into the 21st century is a total insult to the scene, other promoters and young attendees. Its a business model and an opportunistic one at that. The pair were skateboard enthusiast s and the Pharrell thing presnted a business opportunity that they jumped at. It has absolutely no soul behind it. 

People judge yes, and never go precisely because of their entitled and arrogant attitude. Also, drinks on the dance floor, dodgy dance classes, silly business soul t-shirts, and dodgy vinyl.

I've also heard from many that they are 'encouraged" to not attend other venues, and that many a bootleg is played, and in order to validate that they declare that those into original vinyl are elitist.
The son Shaffaer is apparently a main culprit and is also being groomed into a ND Dj by the firm.
As you can clearly see from the Charly bio...she declares herself a 'Celebutante'....I don't remember those types being a part of the scene, do you? I do remember musicians being celebrities when they played live though.

You have obviously been influenced by the NS influencers and thats a choice and good luck with it.

I started my soul journey same time as you and never stopped going out, around the country and abroad, through the decades of moving forward..including into the 21st century (no celebutantes required or needed) and I have never been so unimpressed by anything as this fakery and co-optation of the NS scene.

Casting stones? Ive researched this outfit for 10 years, its evidenced critique, not criticism or throwing stones....

To me it looks like they jumped ship from Skateboarding and anti-capitalism to Northern Soul and capitalising on it through a capitalistic product based model:

 https://jfpierets.com/works/dinerodiy/  

"Two female artists denounce capitalism in concrete sculptures. The remains of their abandoned skatepark/DIY art project, can be found in Spain (...) We are in the middle of the abandoned site of DineroDIY, a skate park annex art installation that had its heydays in 2018.

"Lev Mclean and Eve Arslett, two British female artists, first saw the abandoned factory while in Cártama. Mother and daughter, both lovers of the prevailing skate culture in Spain, get out of their car and start clearing rubble. They are not deterred by the animal bones scattered here and there, and hours later the potential of the place they have cleaned shows itself. They decide to be on the lookout for a few days to see if they can realize their dream here" 

"However, the lipstick factory had closed its doors in 2007 and no one cared about the site.They decided to start building one obstacle, but soon they got the hang of it and wanted to do more. The first piece of art was a pile of euro notes and gold coins – dineros – and the name of the park was born." 

 

When I first wrote about them in 2014, I could clearly sense a Musical Performing Arts jazz hands, stage starlet vibe/model of self-promotion. Nothing wrong with that except when you apply it (like Sal from Sal & Pops) to sucking the soul out of the NS scene.

"This is the third production that Levanna has been involved in having previously played parts in Joseph and his Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat at the Bristol Hippodrome and a part in Annie, at the Weston Theatre Playhouse.She has attended the Bristol School for performing arts on Saturdays for four years."

Well, say no more: https://www.gazetteseries.co.uk/news/1166700.levannas-all-set-for-stage-stardom/

 

Edited February 2 by Source Team
off topic image removed by site

[Mark S]

2 hours ago, Chalky said:

They aren’t naive, they’ve been around long enough. Narcissistic yes. They are also the ones doing the manipulating and distorting not the media. if it was simply for the love of the music they would simply just get on with it quietly and avoid all the controversy, neither would they troll, abuse and insult others both openly and via private messages on social media using fake or anonymous accounts. 

Sign of the times I suppose social media appears to be a cesspit and trolling for many now is the accepted defence mechanism. Dont use it myself except here. 

Yes agree to a point about  people on the scene manipulating the narative  you only have to listen to Russ W to hear the shite he comes out with but ultimately its the media that allows this content without propper research. 

I am just a punter on this scene and  have an if you know you know type attitude the story never needed telling in the first place..

Edited February 2 by Mark S

[Hooker1951]

When I would start even giving these influencers the time of the day is when they could tell me they have been too a 1000 all nighters around 2000 Soul nights and all dayers all over the country, Had over 20 years of getting out of a bed on a Friday morning and not getting back in it till Monday night, Dj,ing and dancing , having a great time with a little help from our friend, helping your mates when their having a downer, making sure their safe etc and carrying on regardless, knowing at least the history of some of the artists that you love to listen too and still carry on with your employment and everyday life, then I might listen, as regards White British stealing black music and claiming it for our own I’m with Chalky on this We along with to a lesser degree European countries kept it going and saved it from being forgotten, That music was recorded for everyone to enjoy on this planet, Do you think for one minute? That those artists who recorded the tunes we love would not be pleased we are listening to them buying them and dancing in to them, I’m sure they would. And just because we had our scene here , there still was a scene going on , maybe a slightly different concept in the USA,  I remember being in LA 46 years ago and live bands playing some our favourites n various bars,  The Soul scene has been alive now following RnB for over 60 years It’s a very complex scene and way of life yet it is simple  in that it is good music good people having a good time 3 ingredients add a little chemical magic and you have a cracking recipe never fails because there are no ego,s involved,  It doesn’t really matter what Scene it is there will always be the pretenders watching from the sidelines waiting to reflect on the success and inflate their ego,s in some shape or form and financially if possible.im sure there are to many old Souls on here to be fooled by this influencer nonsense.

Mick L

[Source Team]

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[Bloodseed]

4 hours ago, Paul-s said:

Totally misguided and I will soon share some stuff that will open a few eyes to the game..

The "needs new blood" cliche and "it will die" (as Levine pronounced in the 80's) are ridiculous statements to allow the middle class co-optation of NS culture. 

From the PMs I have had in other forums, BNSC definitely don't support other clubs in Bristol. And i have plenty of PMs that share their bullying messages to anyone who critiques their club. Its disgusting behaviour.

You can evidence that fact that they are narcissistic, and non inclusive, from the BBC Woman's hour stuff where Eve declares that Bristol had no NS before BNSC and her own magnificence. Also, the fact that she states she is taking it into the 21st century is a total insult to the scene, other promoters and young attendees. Its a business model and an opportunistic one at that. The pair were skateboard enthusiast s and the Pharrell thing presnted a business opportunity that they jumped at. It has absolutely no soul behind it. 

People judge yes, and never go precisely because of their entitled and arrogant attitude. Also, drinks on the dance floor, dodgy dance classes, silly business soul t-shirts, and dodgy vinyl.

I've also heard from many that they are 'encouraged" to not attend other venues, and that many a bootleg is played, and in order to validate that they declare that those into original vinyl are elitist.
The son Shaffaer is apparently a main culprit and is also being groomed into a ND Dj by the firm.
As you can clearly see from the Charly bio...she declares herself a 'Celebutante'....I don't remember those types being a part of the scene, do you? I do remember musicians being celebrities when they played live though.

You have obviously been influenced by the NS influencers and thats a choice and good luck with it.

I started my soul journey same time as you and never stopped going out, around the country and abroad, through the decades of moving forward..including into the 21st century (no celebutantes required or needed) and I have never been so unimpressed by anything as this fakery and co-optation of the NS scene.

Casting stones? Ive researched this outfit for 10 years, it’s evidenced critique, not criticism or throwing stones....

Not implying you cast stones I mean in general  I’ve spoken to several well travelled prominent and highly respected people on the scene and theirs is of the same opinion as mine that people are somewhat jealous and that we should let them be    many  say they will burn themselves out well why don’t people wait and see instead of pushing them out ?   As I’ve said been around these people and their intentions are honourable and the main ingredient for me is that they love the music  by the time they can say they have done what we did eg hitch lifts stay out all weekends going to dayers and niters we will be pretty much older and probably not so much judgemental  anyway   They are doing it their way  so you have to respect that as I keep saying this is nobody’s scene 

[Corbett80]

8 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Terms and words choices ; culture and economy are interlinked all through history. I'm afraid that those records were bought and not robbed per se and that white people victimizing some more black folks is... Huh ! Just not true.

Are you really going to put guilt on every purchased records ? As for 'appropriation' what about borrowed or influenced from rather than appropriated ? A dance move and / or taking an "over easy" stance for a far away social cause ?

Is all that morally 'punishable' ? I think not. Pathetic maybe. Even if that's your way of seeing it using those ideological 'filters' to me these terms are just too insidious and unhappy for one to live with love for those records if ever.

For one to have some political or social awareness of the world we live in is one thing. To make any subculture an ideological battle ground is never a good thing. Imposed ideology follows and it's despicable. We're in for the music.

Not a political struggle. What I've found at one time on top of the sounds that were my treat was an 'underground' night-life with people dedicated to that music with no dress code, age or origin discrimination nor socio-economic barriers.

As opposed to other "marginal" scenes I encountered back then full off aggro for nothing and political side suspicion that I grew tired from. And racism if you want to go there (eg. whites robbing blacks) such is not the white man's privilege. ...

Preferring to agree I guess as like you I love some of what still remain of that 'underground' (a 'discreet' not plotting cult of devotees to sounding materials outside of the authorities control scope) scene nowadays.

That have taken too much overground float for too long again and that some seems to do everything they can to keep it that way. This is where the issue lies for me. That is consumerism at the service of the rotten egos.

Just to be clear - i wasn’t the one who brought the term ‘cultural appropriation’ into this discussion. The concept of that as applied to new people on the northern soul is laughable, whether they have ‘served their time’ / on the telly / whatever. That’s what i wanted to point out, hence my deliberately provocative point about ‘robbing’. I’m well aware this scene likes to pat itself on the back for ‘saving’ all of this music, and perhaps it is quite right to - but please don’t be don’t be sitting around moaning constantly and then seriously try to complain you are having your ‘culture appropriated’ because someone you don’t like is on the telly with it. Ffs.

 

 

 

 

[Jessie Pinkman]

6 hours ago, Paul-s said:

To me it looks like they jumped ship from Skateboarding and anti-capitalism to Northern Soul and capitalising on it through a capitalistic product based model:

 https://jfpierets.com/works/dinerodiy/  

"Two female artists denounce capitalism in concrete sculptures. The remains of their abandoned skatepark/DIY art project, can be found in Spain (...) We are in the middle of the abandoned site of DineroDIY, a skate park annex art installation that had its heydays in 2018.

"Lev Mclean and Eve Arslett, two British female artists, first saw the abandoned factory while in Cártama. Mother and daughter, both lovers of the prevailing skate culture in Spain, get out of their car and start clearing rubble. They are not deterred by the animal bones scattered here and there, and hours later the potential of the place they have cleaned shows itself. They decide to be on the lookout for a few days to see if they can realize their dream here" 

"However, the lipstick factory had closed its doors in 2007 and no one cared about the site.They decided to start building one obstacle, but soon they got the hang of it and wanted to do more. The first piece of art was a pile of euro notes and gold coins – dineros – and the name of the park was born." 

 

When I first wrote about them in 2014, I could clearly sense a Musical Performing Arts jazz hands, stage starlet vibe/model of self-promotion. Nothing wrong with that except when you apply it (like Sal from Sal & Pops) to sucking the soul out of the NS scene.

"This is the third production that Levanna has been involved in having previously played parts in Joseph and his Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat at the Bristol Hippodrome and a part in Annie, at the Weston Theatre Playhouse.She has attended the Bristol School for performing arts on Saturdays for four years."

Well, say no more: https://www.gazetteseries.co.uk/news/1166700.levannas-all-set-for-stage-stardom/

 

I don't get what skateboarding and attending the Bristol School of performing arts on Saturday for four years has got to do with anything, So what, my mate plays Rugby on Saturday, sometimes for 2 teams but it doesn't stop him doing soul stuff at night. Apparently she was in 3 stage productions as well, so there's no chance of her appearing in Once upon a time in Wigan 2, The Stafford Story. 

[Tlscapital]

2 hours ago, Corbett80 said:

Just to be clear - i wasn’t the one who brought the term ‘cultural appropriation’ into this discussion. The concept of that as applied to new people on the northern soul is laughable, whether they have ‘served their time’ / on the telly / whatever. That’s what i wanted to point out, hence my deliberately provocative point about ‘robbing’. I’m well aware this scene likes to pat itself on the back for ‘saving’ all of this music, and perhaps it is quite right to - but please don’t be don’t be sitting around moaning constantly and then seriously try to complain you are having your ‘culture appropriated’ because someone you don’t like is on the telly with it. Ffs

It was clear. Whether or not others have used it first is irrelevant somehow. It's a written discussion for all to read. For me it's the use of such terms / words that makes it a 'sociological pattern' issue.  Hence why I was targeting the words and terms not to make it another sociological study on sub-cultures as seen on the BBC Open University or what have you. Was not accusing you but just pointing out the words and terms.

And I agree targeting such vast groups of individuals (young or old as white or black) as being all the same is the issue. Said it before here. But I don't care and don't even know what others might think if they don't say it. So I said 'believing to agree' somehow because I read your comments going both ways somehow. But now that you expressed it directly not going down that weird 'white people robbing poor black folks' route I get IT.

But there are those about who say so because they truly believe so. That is a big rip-off claim twist from the real world. Yet some NS people are crooks. Still that white man robbing a poor black folk's job done on a record decades ago is a caricature. If some did that evidently toss them in hell. But I doubt that was often. 

Evidently for me the only 'soul heroes' are the artists themselves and all the people working all along with them. Never any of us, nor the famous dee-jays nor the biggest collectors. I despise those who boast like that and you're right they are about having done it all... While I haven't but it's not a complex for me. Such big mouths on any subjects are unbearable FWIW. Still I admire and respect some of the soulful people I've met.

And there are some from every age, sex, education and whereabouts. But outside that or any scenes too. So I'm not going to answer to your 'me moaning' me and 'telly envy' and what ever you think I do since I do not nor care for any of that. But I say what I'm happy about (encouragement) and not. Having a discussion here raising some points I thought apparently you were making that others began to also but that you condensed. 

[Kenb]

Cultural Appropriation -Yes.

There was no Northern Soul before about 1970. R & B and soul yes.

No Americans i know ever went consistently to hear music at a venue(s) from 2am to 8am as a group of people. Neither did they mobilise in terms of travelling to hear that music from one town to another.

The music of "Black America" was never put together by DJ's in a way that Northern Soul did 'in the first instance'.

Northern Soul was as much a movement as a 'scene'. If someone has taken it and re-purposed it for their own grandizement, then...yes it's Cultural Appropriation.

[Corbett80]

1 hour ago, Kenb said:

Cultural Appropriation -Yes.

There was no Northern Soul before about 1970. R & B and soul yes.

No Americans i know ever went consistently to hear music at a venue(s) from 2am to 8am as a group of people. Neither did they mobilise in terms of travelling to hear that music from one town to another.

The music of "Black America" was never put together by DJ's in a way that Northern Soul did 'in the first instance'.

Northern Soul was as much a movement as a 'scene'. If someone has taken it and re-purposed it for their own grandizement, then...yes it's Cultural Appropriation.

Ok, here’s a question: is a northern soul film cultural appropriation? Is a northern soul play cultural appropriation? A northern soul fashion shoot? The production and selling of soul tat found at weekenders? Or is all of that ok if it has involvement from people deemed ‘worthy’? At what point do we decide anything related to northern soul outside of the act of humans travelling to a venue to listen to records played from record decks through speakers from original vinyl is deemed cultural appropriation if northern soul related? It does feel like the whole thing seems to hinge on if said people get the ‘pass’ or not. And who decides that? Who’s in charge? Genuinely curious.

 

 

Edited February 2 by Corbett80

[Hooker1951]

11 minutes ago, Kenb said:

Cultural Appropriation -Yes.

There was no Northern Soul before about 1970. R & B and soul yes.

No Americans i know ever went consistently to hear music at a venue(s) from 2am to 8am as a group of people. Neither did they mobilise in terms of travelling to hear that music from one town to another.

The music of "Black America" was never put together by DJ's in a way that Northern Soul did 'in the first instance'.

Northern Soul was as much a movement as a 'scene'. If someone has taken it and re-purposed it for their own grandizement, then...yes it's Cultural Appropriation.

There was loads of music from 1963.onwards that could be classed as NS the term NS only came in approx 1970 but the music already existed  and soul music lovers were dancing to it , trust me I seen it, We in this country put our own stamp on it as in Germany and Belgium to a degree,  To say Americans didn’t go to venues in groups of people is a sweeping statement there are 350, 000000 people in America 50 states each one like separate country with major cities in each , ie, Detroit , Chicago New York , New Orleans eg each with its own stamp on Soul Music each with Ballrooms, Cellars, Night clubs , underground clubs which hosted many Major Soul Acts, and Soul Acts that were only famous maybe in their home state they would have.had DJ,s playing in between the acts Soul music and RnB  as seen on the flyers Roburt posts on here they were in fact probably 5 years before us with the music, Because you didn’t see the scene in the USA and it happened before your time  doesn’t mean it didn’t excist, I’ve been to Soul venues and shows in America and they are well attented, We didn’t invent NS in Britain what we did do was put our stamp on it which can only be a good thing. Trust me they had the right chemicals there too, I did a post a couple of years ago about how in Germany they had a thriving Soul and popcorn scene running all nighters, Somebody posted they  only had drink there to get high, I explained that the Germans have always had the strongest speed for the last 100 years the German Blitzcreig  was fought on it every German soldier sailor , and Luftwaffe pilot was given it , one of the reasons they were winning all the battles at the beginning of the war,So if you could fight on it you could certainly dance

Mick L

[Timbo58]

12 minutes ago, Corbett80 said:

Ok, here’s a question: is a northern soul film cultural appropriation? Is a northern soul play cultural appropriation? A northern soul fashion shoot? The production and selling of soul tat found at weekenders? Or is all of that ok if it has involvement from people deemed ‘worthy’? At what point do we decide anything related to northern soul outside of the act of humans travelling to a venue to listen to records played from record decks through speakers from original vinyl is deemed cultural appropriation if northern soul related? It does feel like the whole thing seems to hinge on if said people get the ‘pass’ or not. And who decides that? Who’s in charge? Genuinely curious.

 

 

Interesting topic but it has been covered here in this very forum before. topic/320896-northern-soul-is-it-a-trademark/

A film/play/fashion shoot are obviously & ultimately deemed worthy or not by their audience, whether we like it or not or think it reflects fairly or not on the soul scene, to that end my opinion (not being old enough to have been at any of the iconic venues of the 70's) will differ from many friends a few years older, isn't that always the case?

As for tat in all its guises -again it's judged by its consumers, the rest of us can laugh at it or blame the promotor if they  allow it in their venue.

I'd guess in answer to who's in charge? -no one of course, there may or may not be a consensus of opinion but in reality it doesn't matter since no one can lay any legal claim of ownership.

Personally I love that, nothing says more that 'soul is for everyone' than not being able to copyright it.

 

 

 

[Baz Atkinson]

The saddest thing about this debate is the fact that not one person from that scene has responded on here . 
The same disconnect used to occur when the rare soul scene used to have a go at wide trousers and the events which accommodated them  ? At least there was a rear quard action from the promoters on that issue at times . 
The only thing I care about is that artists get their royalties but to be honest that is a whole can of worms which has only really had the surface debated .

If the disrespect from the young crowd is true then perhaps it’s not a huge surprise as young people these days have very little . I once danced in Mr Ms to Gimme Some Loving (mod revival ) and a old wheel guy said I had great moves I was overwhelmed now a kid would say “ he only has 100 friends and 10 followers . 
 

The real disconnect here is that the artistes had nowt and made  nowt and produced something incredible time and time again . If personnel financial gain off their back happens to me that’s a matter of conscience .  
I also realise that records fetch thousands and people profit daily , that is an eco system of a scene that has build itself from the people who have been about from back in the day ,perhaps the end game should be we own that and the young people can crack on ? I find I want to smack a lot of them anyway infact I did last night at jui Jitsu lol . 

[Geeselad]

23 hours ago, Bloodseed said:

Chalky 

isn’t that the way it’s always been ? 
I went to niters back in the day and maybe a third of them are still going it’s a circle 

as for these youngsters they do travel and support other venues I know this as I’ve spoken to them  as near as last Sunday when they attended my do after going to the 100 club the night before We need to encourage them and from where I’m standing it looks healthier for the future if we all pull in the same direction  no one owns the scene so we all need to do our bit

I don't think anyone has any opposition to the punters at BSC, it's much more about the methods adopted by it's promotors and the message they've sent to the wider worl. The arrogance, ignorance and conceit. 

[Geeselad]

22 hours ago, Corbett80 said:

There’s a pretty strong argument that Northern soul itself is cultural appropriation of the highest order. A bunch of white people robbing 45s from poor black folk, building a scene around them, copying the dancing and using black power iconography etc - the list goes on. I mean, i love it and i’m fully invested and would argue it’s all out of love, but we can’t get the hump about other people culturally appropriating cultural appropriation can we….?

It depends how much you want to dig really, is it cultural appropriation when a black picks up a guitar, an instrument invented by Caucasians? Marist theory has a funny way of making it's own rule up, don't you think?

[Jessie Pinkman]

Copernicus just called, apparently the Northern Soul scene isn't the centre of the Universe?

[Hooker1951]

4 minutes ago, Jessie Pinkman said:

Copernicus just called, apparently the Northern Soul scene isn't the centre of the Universe?

No it’s Bristol this week

ML

[Agentsmith]

4 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

No it’s Bristol this week

ML

What?...the venue with " legendary djs "?

[Hooker1951]

2 minutes ago, Agentsmith said:

What?...the venue with " legendary djs "?

That’s the one, 

[Agentsmith]

2 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

That’s the one, 

The phrase is in danger of becoming an expletive!!

[Mickey Finn]

6 minutes ago, Geeselad said:

It depends how much you want to dig really, is it cultural appropriation when a black picks up a guitar, an instrument invented by Caucasians? Marist theory has a funny way of making it's own rule up, don't you think?

No, it's just certain academics playing the same self-promotion game by finding a form of oppression and then developing an angle on it. Nothing to do with Marx or the virgin Mary. As with social media, academics compete for likes (citations) via posts (publications) that simultaneously appropriate (borrow/adapt/quote) from the work of others whilst marking themselves out as somehow unique from the crowd and therefore worth following. Much of academic publishing today is influencer marketing gone mad.

People who have never read Marx call this "Marxism" because its practitioners adopt oppressed poses and claim to speak for the oppressed, even as they build nice careers and are anything but oppressed themselves. Ultimately it's all about them and little or nothing to do with the ordinary people they claim to defend. Marxism it most definitely is not. It's just a variation on what seems to be the central theme of this and some other older threads - appropriation for the singular purpose of self-advancement.

[Hooker1951]

7 minutes ago, Agentsmith said:

The phrase is in danger of becoming an expletive!!

It’s one step down from saying I’m the one, in all honesty I don’t know these people from Bristol, have never heard their sets or taste in NS, But they have to realise that the Music is the Common denominator , Ego,s and being opinionated don’t sit well with the Good folk on here, We’ve played a lot of tunes and heard a lot of tunes between us and are not easily fooled especially when we’ve been there and done it countless times know when things are genuine or not, most of the time anyway LoL,

Mick L

[Woodbutcher]

A major part of the 'scene' as I remember when getting into it was it's distance from what was 'mainstream'.

That mystique and almost secret society feel , queuing up outside clubs waiting for the pissed up casanovas to bugger off at midnight so we could take over until dawn.

Now it's been thrust firmly into the spotlight on every mainstream platform that mystique is forever dead , and sadly those pissed up casanovas seem to make up the majority of 'fans' these days , certainly in the soul night department anyway.

I just hope 'our scene' survives until the latest bandwagon jumpers get bored and disappear back to whence they came , sooner than later.

That way I might get my mojo back and start venturing out again , but for the present there's little appeal unfortunately. 

[Modularman]

15 hours ago, Chalky said:

For most there was hardly any sales that’s why they faded into obscurity until discovered by Brits. 

Could it be that there were hardly any sales because of low press runs? Not exclusively, admittedly. 

When the scene throws around terms like 'discovered by' or 'first played by' it reeks to me of DJ ego and is frankly nonsense as they were neither discovered by or first played by us Brits and it could be argued is disrespectful to the original artists and producers who created the music in the first place. Rediscovered yes, discovered no.

[Mark S]

The term cultural appropriation definitely doesn't apply to the soul scene. Early days for me was the late 60s early 70s Skinhead / Suedehead culture that for me at least morphed into the Northern soul scene . 

Blue collar white British culture meets Black American blue collar musical culture. We weren't trying to be black just disenfranchised working class youth finding a connection with black American disenfranchised youth. 

We cant expect kids in 2023 to understand that let alone respect it and the sad thing is we can weep and wail gnash our dentures but there is absolutely fu#k all we can do about it 

[Kenb]

1 hour ago, Hooker1951 said:

There was loads of music from 1963.onwards that could be classed as NS the term NS only came in approx 1970 but the music already existed  and soul music lovers were dancing to it , trust me I seen it, We in this country put our own stamp on it as in Germany and Belgium to a degree,  To say Americans didn’t go to venues in groups of people is a sweeping statement there are 350, 000000 people in America 50 states each one like separate country with major cities in each , ie, Detroit , Chicago New York , New Orleans eg each with its own stamp on Soul Music each with Ballrooms, Cellars, Night clubs , underground clubs which hosted many Major Soul Acts, and Soul Acts that were only famous maybe in their home state they would have.had DJ,s playing in between the acts Soul music and RnB  as seen on the flyers Roburt posts on here they were in fact probably 5 years before us with the music, Because you didn’t see the scene in the USA and it happened before your time  doesn’t mean it didn’t excist, I’ve been to Soul venues and shows in America and they are well attented, We didn’t invent NS in Britain what we did do was put our stamp on it which can only be a good thing. Trust me they had the right chemicals there too, I did a post a couple of years ago about how in Germany they had a thriving Soul and popcorn scene running all nighters, Somebody posted they  only had drink there to get high, I explained that the Germans have always had the strongest speed for the last 100 years the German Blitzcreig  was fought on it every German soldier sailor , and Luftwaffe pilot was given it , one of the reasons they were winning all the battles at the beginning of the war,So if you could fight on it you could certainly dance

Mick L

Of course there was loads of music from 1963 onwards that could be classed as Northern Soul. It got played on the Northern Soul scene as it developed. I don't agree Northern Soul 'existed and we put our stamp on it'.

Edited February 2 by Kenb

[Kenb]

2 hours ago, Corbett80 said:

Ok, here’s a question: is a northern soul film cultural appropriation? Is a northern soul play cultural appropriation? A northern soul fashion shoot? The production and selling of soul tat found at weekenders? Or is all of that ok if it has involvement from people deemed ‘worthy’? At what point do we decide anything related to northern soul outside of the act of humans travelling to a venue to listen to records played from record decks through speakers from original vinyl is deemed cultural appropriation if northern soul related? It does feel like the whole thing seems to hinge on if said people get the ‘pass’ or not. And who decides that? Who’s in charge? Genuinely curious.

 

 

It's a reasonable point you make. And i guess it comes down to personal opinion about what 'one' feels is or is not cultural appropriation. I would say all of the elements you mention above depend on context. As an individual i think 'worthy' as you put it, is a good judgement call to make ( for me at any rate).

Edited February 2 by Kenb

[Hooker1951]

I didn’t say NS existed I said the music was to become NS existed, I heard most of it first time around from 1963 onwards most of the NS in the early 1970,s were re issues from the mid 1960,s most of it had been played at clubs like the wheel Manchester, and Room at the top Wigan and other similar venues around the country along with Club Soul, when you were listening to it in 1975 a lot of us  had already heard it nine or ten years before, because we are older than you . If the music already  existed somebody put a stamp on it and called it NS otherwise it would just be Soul and RnB  which it was when I first got interested TBH I’m not really interested in what you agree, I’ve been around too long for that nonsense I just know what’s true and that’s good enough for me

Mick L

[Geeselad]

2 hours ago, Mickey Finn said:

No, it's just certain academics playing the same self-promotion game by finding a form of oppression and then developing an angle on it. Nothing to do with Marx or the virgin Mary. As with social media, academics compete for likes (citations) via posts (publications) that simultaneously appropriate (borrow/adapt/quote) from the work of others whilst marking themselves out as somehow unique from the crowd and therefore worth following. Much of academic publishing today is influencer marketing gone mad.

People who have never read Marx call this "Marxism" because its practitioners adopt oppressed poses and claim to speak for the oppressed, even as they build nice careers and are anything but oppressed themselves. Ultimately it's all about them and little or nothing to do with the ordinary people they claim to defend. Marxism it most definitely is not. It's just a variation on what seems to be the central theme of this and some other older threads - appropriation for the singular purpose of self-advancement.

Fair points, I haven't read him and I'm well ready to accept it's a lazy metaphor on my part. 

[Mickey Finn]

12 minutes ago, Geeselad said:

Fair points, I haven't read him and I'm well ready to accept it's a lazy metaphor on my part. 

No worries, I get your main point and agree with it. The whole cultural appropriation argument to me is something I am very uncomfortable with because it is so open to abuse and, well, appropriation. My line is as MickL said in another thread on here:

Give credit where it's due, it's all you can do.

Wise words and we would avoid so much bother and aggravation if they were heeded, and not only in the soul scene.

[Geeselad]

1 hour ago, Mickey Finn said:

No worries, I get your main point and agree with it. The whole cultural appropriation argument to me is something I am very uncomfortable with because it is so open to abuse and, well, appropriation. My line is as MickL said in another thread on here:

Give credit where it's due, it's all you can do.

Wise words and we would avoid so much bother and aggravation if they were heeded, and not only in the soul scene.

That was my general point really, regarding, the term cultural appropriation is so rife for abuse. 

[Modularman]

7 hours ago, Geeselad said:

It depends how much you want to dig really, is it cultural appropriation when a black picks up a guitar, an instrument invented by Caucasians? Marist theory has a funny way of making it's own rule up, don't you think?

No, it isn't cultural appropriation. You might want to check the definition of it. That analogy is incorrect. The black and white minstrels or white people sporting dreads, yes. White people listening to or playing black music, no. That's cultural appreciation. 

[Kenb]

13 hours ago, Hooker1951 said:

I didn’t say NS existed I said the music was to become NS existed, I heard most of it first time around from 1963 onwards most of the NS in the early 1970,s were re issues from the mid 1960,s most of it had been played at clubs like the wheel Manchester, and Room at the top Wigan and other similar venues around the country along with Club Soul, when you were listening to it in 1975 a lot of us  had already heard it nine or ten years before, because we are older than you . If the music already  existed somebody put a stamp on it and called it NS otherwise it would just be Soul and RnB  which it was when I first got interested TBH I’m not really interested in what you agree, I’ve been around too long for that nonsense I just know what’s true and that’s good enough for me

Mick L

well i'm 70...so just how much older than me are you? i was 10 in 1963.

Edited February 3 by Kenb

[Kenb]

7 hours ago, Modularman said:

No, it isn't cultural appropriation. You might want to check the definition of it. That analogy is incorrect. The black and white minstrels or white people sporting dreads, yes. White people listening to or playing black music, no. That's cultural appreciation. 

this is the definition i use...

Cultural appropriation takes place when members of a majority group adopt cultural elements of a minority group in an exploitative, disrespectful, or stereotypical way. To fully understand its consequences, though, we need to make sure we have a working definition of culture itself.

[Happy Feet]

13 hours ago, Hooker1951 said:

I didn’t say NS existed I said the music was to become NS existed, I heard most of it first time around from 1963 onwards most of the NS in the early 1970,s were re issues from the mid 1960,s most of it had been played at clubs like the wheel Manchester, and Room at the top Wigan and other similar venues around the country along with Club Soul, when you were listening to it in 1975 a lot of us  had already heard it nine or ten years before, because we are older than you . If the music already  existed somebody put a stamp on it and called it NS otherwise it would just be Soul and RnB  which it was when I first got interested TBH I’m not really interested in what you agree, I’ve been around too long for that nonsense I just know what’s true and that’s good enough for me

Mick L

I personally think that Rhythm & Blues sounds much more appropriate as most of the clubs up and down all 4 corners of the UK & Europe where playing RnB , Northern Soul , is that not a lazy metaphor or just misinterpretation ?

[Hooker1951]

14 hours ago, Kenb said:

Of course there was loads of music from 1963 onwards that could be classed as Northern Soul. It got played on the Northern Soul scene as it developed. I don't agree Northern Soul 'existed and we put our stamp on it'.

 

14 hours ago, Hooker1951 said:

I didn’t say NS existed I said the music was to become NS existed, I heard most of it first time around from 1963 onwards most of the NS in the early 1970,s were re issues from the mid 1960,s most of it had been played at clubs like the wheel Manchester, and Room at the top Wigan and other similar venues around the country along with Club Soul, when you were listening to it in 1975 a lot of us  had already heard it nine or ten years before, because we are older than you . If the music already  existed somebody put a stamp on it and called it NS otherwise it would just be Soul and RnB  which it was when I first got interested TBH I’m not really interested in what you agree, I’ve been around too long for that nonsense I just know what’s true and that’s good enough for me

Mick L

 

[Wiggyflat]

From reading old Blues & Souls Dave called it the Northern Soul scene to describe a few clubs that played old Soul and were not interested in new releases.These seemed to be in the North.He was not branding a type of music which later became reliant on  the fast Motown style tempos.Let's look at the old tv reports.This England when it was overground looked at the cultural and music aspects of it but did avoid the elephant in the room.Drug use.I actually like This England.Also there was Disco Delight which covered the dancing at The Casino with no interviews .The other montages were the rockers dancing to Hey Rocknroll and footage of a Roxy Disco at Pips.No interviews etc so this stands on its own.Something Else from 1979  was also a good segment and well explained by the girl and footage of people dancing to Disco Connection.The people explain what it is about and how different it is to the normal club scene.The film is not a look at me,look at me film.The importance of the records and music is at the forefront.Still no mention of the drug elephant though.I suppose at that time it isn't mentioned as they did not want to attract the DS but i don't think people did not dob their club in if they were nicked.I have numerous reports of people telling the Police were they bought it from or where they were going to sell.All of the above tv pieces are focused on the records and the artists.Out On The Floor tv film now does focus on drugs but suffers from a low budget.I think the next thing was Whistle Test ...Wigan had shut and it was back underground again.Another informative piece with a brief history and a serious look.Chasing Rainbows looked at one particular person and wasn't too bad either Gary Crowleys look at Morecambe was excellent and also focused on the records and how records could become big quickly.Footage of the dancers too and the link with Blackpool Mecca and Levines Hi Energy projects.The rot started with Dani Behrs piece on the Northern Soul butcher...this is the one that looked at the scene in a look at these old people with their odd rituals etc...from that piece it has been downhill since to where we are now.Responsibility is a word that should be thought about with the media ...are you going to make the scene look a joke ? What is there agenda? I mean I was asked by tv people in a programme about records and Northern Soul ...can you wear baggy trousers..F and Off were my words.The feeling I do get are that in the old docs people are participants and have no agenda about becoming famous and are natural. People are so desperate to get on tv they don't think about how it is going to be portrayed.I mean the Northern soul Nazi Float...you could not make it up.

Edited February 3 by Wiggyflat

[Hooker1951]

29 minutes ago, Happy Feet said:

I personally think that Rhythm & Blues sounds much more appropriate as most of the clubs up and down all 4 corners of the UK & Europe where playing RnB , Northern Soul , is that not a lazy metaphor or just misinterpretation ?

Hi Happy Feet

Lets not get Technical, it’s childish and demeaning , I said RnB and Soul  before it was termed NS , if it had stayed that way it wouldn’t have bothered me in the slightest the music would have been the same and I would like most others would have enjoyed it, NS is just an Umbrella brand given to the music we love where it starts and where it ends is anyone’s guess , I know my perimeters do you, ? Have a great weekend

ML

[Hooker1951]

48 minutes ago, Kenb said:

this is the definition i use...

Cultural appropriation takes place when members of a majority group adopt cultural elements of a minority group in an exploitative, disrespectful, or stereotypical way. To fully understand its consequences, though, we need to make sure we have a working definition of culture itself.

 

[Wiggyflat]

On 02/02/2024 at 07:30, Chalky said:

They aren’t naive, they’ve been around long enough. Narcissistic yes. They are also the ones doing the manipulating and distorting not the media. if it was simply for the love of the music they would simply just get on with it quietly and avoid all the controversy, neither would they troll, abuse and insult others both openly and via private messages on social media using fake or anonymous accounts. 

If the media came to them and wanted to do a serious look at the scene why don't they say...ah you need to speak to Chris Burton,Guy Hennigan,Soul Sam,Adey,Kev Roberts,Phil Dick etc etc as I don't have the depth or knowledge of the scene as they do.

[Paul-s]

21 hours ago, Bloodseed said:

Not implying you cast stones I mean in general  I’ve spoken to several well travelled prominent and highly respected people on the scene and theirs is of the same opinion as mine that people are somewhat jealous and that we should let them be    many  say they will burn themselves out well why don’t people wait and see instead of pushing them out ?   As I’ve said been around these people and their intentions are honourable and the main ingredient for me is that they love the music  by the time they can say they have done what we did eg hitch lifts stay out all weekends going to dayers and niters we will be pretty much older and probably not so much judgemental  anyway   They are doing it their way  so you have to respect that as I keep saying this is nobody’s scene 

It is indeed nobody's scene.

But it does have an important working class history and past, and by trying to erase and co-opt that - have listen to producer Eve on BBC woman's hour claiming it as her scene and BNSC are the centre of it: a claim she knows is absurd and untrue - they are trying to make it a myopic vision and scene that they wish to dominate commercially. 

Two tracks spring to mind: The Snake & Backstabbers "they smile in your face".......

So, it definitely is a scene that does not need poisonous snakes and gentrifying 'influencers'

[Happy Feet]

17 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

Hi Happy Feet

Lets not get Technical, it’s childish and demeaning , I said RnB and Soul  before it was termed NS , if it had stayed that way it wouldn’t have bothered me in the slightest the music would have been the same and I would like most others would have enjoyed it, NS is just an Umbrella brand given to the music we love where it starts and where it ends is anyone’s guess , I know my perimeters do you, ? Have a great weekend

ML

Thanks, you have great weekend too.

Dave 

[Hooker1951]

54 minutes ago, Kenb said:

well i'm 70...so just how much older than me are you? i was 10 in 1963.

Hi Ken

I’m 73 this year, was visiting clubs from the age of 12 started going to all-nighters at the age of 13 every weekend , led a life in clubland all my life  dancing Dj,ing  was a Security boss for over 40 years, listened to music all my life, Mc,d at all major illegal and legal raves, seen and looked after some of the biggest acts in the world, met most of the American Soul acts that visited here from the early 1970,s had Steak n chips for supper with Jimmy Ruffin , had a Guinness with Ben E King, eg eg, could go on forever, I’m not boasting just telling it like it is, let’s just agree to disagree it makes life simple, and gives me time to have another adventure.

Have a great day

ML