I gave in and recently got myself the Stormy Supreme's 7, then never hearing the Stevie Wonder B side from the box sets, WOW just magical and blew me away - my best new record!.  Then there was obviously the Gaye CD Box set. I then had a morning of listening to a good few of those other unreleased Motown songs from the other box sets.

How did that whole Motown thing work? What was their thinking behind recording so much good music but never releasing it coupled with some of the recordings that i presume don't even exist now.

I'm wondering who and how songs were chosen for release on either single or LP. I know Motown were vast, but the shear amount of time and money wasted seems ridiculous. Other Record labels would have gone into liquidation with just a tiny fraction of their wasted efforts.

I don't really want to but a book, but is there an accurate and reliable "concise" (not a dissertation) link anywhere?

Thankyou🙂

The reason behind it was to get a hit so when you put let's say " Love starved heart " up against Reach out i'll be there, which one is going to give you the sales to keep the company afloat along with the Supremes releases which were selling in there millions ,no matter how good we think they were most were not commercial enough to catch the casual listener .

  On 06/01/2024 at 15:37, Jimmy Mack said:

The reason behind it was to get a hit so when you put let's say " Love starved heart " up against Reach out i'll be there, which one is going to give you the sales to keep the company afloat along with the Supremes releases which were selling in there millions ,no matter how good we think they were most were not commercial enough to catch the casual listener .

Thanks Jimmy Mack,

I get that "pile em high" etc but then why bother in the first place recording them (so so many) if they weren't "commercial"? Example how was "Stormy" not commercial? 

  On 06/01/2024 at 15:52, Soul Salad said:

Thanks Jimmy Mack,

I get that "pile em high" etc but then why bother in the first place recording them (so so many) if they weren't "commercial"? Example how was "Stormy" not commercial? 

PS And "who" decided which were and which werent commercial enough?

If you check the Motown Catalogue there is some stinkers in there and why they got released beggars belief ,Stormy up against say You cant hurry love no brainer it's instant and catches the listeners right away and sold where as Stormy would have failed to chart ,There was a committee of song writers and various members of staff that voted on what song was to be released i would say they got it right .

Thanks again,

Then their business model was to record tonnes of songs knowing that a % would break the charts and carry the loses of all the others - i guess it worked and i get if they released them but if they didn't even get a release so what was the point? - They must've been astute enough to know which were winners (commercially viable) and which weren't before recording them.

I might just buy a book!

Dax 🙂

Songwriters signed to contracts, producers and arrangers signed to Contracts, Artists and the musicians all signed to contracts , so I would assume they were left to make music and then the powers that be decided which tracks made it to singles then to the lp tracks. Does seem a lot of great tracks never made it to record but it would be cheaper to can any tracks that the production control thought not suitable for release than to take a punt and put them into production and incur the cost of pressing the records , distribution and promotion only to be left in the deletion bins.

And we probably do not appreciate how many records were be released in Detroit on umpteen labels alone every week during the Motown golden years, the record buyers had a treasure trove of soul music to buy but only so much money to spend.

 

  On 06/01/2024 at 21:36, Soul Salad said:

Thanks again,

Then their business model was to record tonnes of songs knowing that a % would break the charts and carry the loses of all the others - i guess it worked and i get if they released them but if they didn't even get a release so what was the point? - They must've been astute enough to know which were winners (commercially viable) and which weren't before recording them.

I might just buy a book!

Dax 🙂

I don't agree.  Listening to writers' or demo singers' recording of an in-house demo is not the same as listening to the final, commercial recording, after several takes of the song, possibly sung by different singers, and going through several different mixes of the background instrumental music.  Every finished record has its own combination of elements that will combine into a "best" version, one of which might return a monster hit, and the others might not even chart.  I know this from my own experience at Airwave, and through people I knew at Motown.  Motown Quality Control made LOTS of poor choices, to go along with their big winners.  There were many choices, especially by Billie Jean Brown, that I disliked intensely.  But the overall quality of their finished product was so good, that it brought them a lot more hits than any other record company, and a much, much higher % (ratio) of hits and charted records to those actually pressed up in reasonable commercial volumes, that they didn't waste a lot of money pushing "losers".  They had their own high-quality recording studio (and starting in 1966 - 2 of them) running 24 hours a day, by many people on salary, or who would only make significant money IF the records would hit.  So, they didn't waste a lot of money on recording. 

Motown staff erased hundreds of tapes of failed recording, and used them again on new projects (much to our chagrin for what interesting recordings we'd love to hear now that are lost forever).  And having their artists and tryout artists recording so many different songs, produced a wonderful atmosphere of opportunity for Motown's contracted artists and budding, Motown singer "wannabees", which continuously attracted Detroit's young singing and songwriting talent to want to "hang out" there, and that's how several singers and songwriters were "discovered" by Motown's producers between 1961 and 1970.  They had so much going on in the mid-to-late '60s that it was very difficult to keep track of it all.  An example of that is that Marv Johnson recorded songs in Studios 1 and 2 for 3 whole years After his singing artist contract expired and was NOT renewed!!!  His contract ended in 1969, and he was recording there until 1972.  Apparently, no one told him or his producers.  He still had a clerical job there, but was also still writing songs and recording them, and several came up for quality Control review for release.  They might have issued a record on him without realising that he wasn't under artist contract.   We've found at least 3 late '60s  unreleased recordings by him, which have been released on CD and digital file.  If he was still being recorded until 1972, we may have a few more to discover (unless the only copies were dubbed over.

Could Motown have been more "critical" (efficient) at earlier stages of the artistic process? - Yes, BUT, in the long run, we'd likely have lost many good recordings we savour now.  And there's no way of knowing whether they'd have made larger or smaller net profits because of that difference, in the long run.  Berry sold his company (minus Jobete Music Co.) for 61 million Dollars in 1988 (which would equate to $163 million today).  So, I really think the way they did things worked out well.  My only truck with it is the loss of original master tapes that were erased and/or dubbed over).

Edited January 7, 20241 yr by Robbk

  On 07/01/2024 at 08:03, Shinehead said:

Songwriters signed to contracts, producers and arrangers signed to Contracts, Artists and the musicians all signed to contracts , so I would assume they were left to make music and then the powers that be decided which tracks made it to singles then to the lp tracks. Does seem a lot of great tracks never made it to record but it would be cheaper to can any tracks that the production control thought not suitable for release than to take a punt and put them into production and incur the cost of pressing the records , distribution and promotion only to be left in the deletion bins.

And we probably do not appreciate how many records were be released in Detroit on umpteen labels alone every week during the Motown golden years, the record buyers had a treasure trove of soul music to buy but only so much money to spend.

 

That sheer volume of releases literally drove me to hit the thrift shops, junk stores, five and dimes, record shop bargain bins, and discount stores special sales, and flea markets hard and heavy from a young age, just to be able to afford all of them I wanted.  But, it got me a huge collection and ability to become an archivist without taking that field of employment.  And it eventually got me work at Motown.  So, I'm glad my life took that route.

  On 06/01/2024 at 16:21, Jimmy Mack said:

If you check the Motown Catalogue there are some stinkers in there and why they got released beggars belief ,Stormy up against say You cant hurry love no brainer it's instant and catches the listeners right away and sold where as Stormy would have failed to chart ,There was a committee of song writers and various members of staff that voted on what song was to be released I would say they got it right .

True enough, but MANY of those totally non-commercial issues were only produced to an actual pressing stage because they were favours to people, some of which for the company's prestige, some for favours owed from people who helped Motown (distributors, DJs, etc) in some other way, some for music business "political" reasons, in-house employees "vanity" recordings/pressings, favours for relatives and close friends, etc.  All these categories represent a good portion of Motown's least commercial pressings. 

Motown recorded hundreds and hundreds of songs.  Of those many, I probably have a favourite list of only maybe 60 or 70 that I am terribly sorry they didn't issue on plastic during the 1960s (such as "A Tear From A Woman's Eye" by The Temptations, "Crying In The Night" by The Monitors, and "All I Have Left Are Memories" by Sammy Turner, "Tears, Nobody, and A Smile" by The Serenaders,  "Lover Boy" by Carolyn Crawford, and "All I Do (Is Think About You) by Tammie Terrell, etc.).  And that's probably a minuscule % of their overall recording.  So, I don't think they did a poor or inefficient job of quality control.  Based on their investment and scale of operations, they were the most efficient (and probably profitable) record company I can think of.

 

Thanks Guys,

Thats so fascinating, i don't need a book now! - if that was that was their MO in the 60s then I'm presuming they actively changed and slimmed down during the 70s and 80s, so true to say that those decades became far less profitable for them. Again that 60s distinctly "Motown" sound disappeared.

Then another question without drawing it out too much was did "buyers "actively" purchase records on the Motown label? - There of course are many Motown "sounding" records which of course never charted/you never hear on the radio but the "commercial" ones were pretty much ALL Motown, (in an hour this morning I've heard two already on Radio2!!) i guess that comes down to their connections at the time. ie the "Motown" ones got through and the Motown sounding ones didn't.

I'm not the greatest asker of questions but hope the above makes sense.

There is then the anomoly of items unreleased in the USA, but actually released in "Foreign Climes" including the UK. Usually a track included on an LP, but not as a 7" release Stateside, yet made the cut elsewhere, just to add to the interest of Motown collectors........

  On 07/01/2024 at 10:51, Soul Salad said:

Thanks Guys,

Thats so fascinating, i don't need a book now! - if that was that was their MO in the 60s then I'm presuming they actively changed and slimmed down during the 70s and 80s, so true to say that those decades became far less profitable for them. Again that 60s distinctly "Motown" sound disappeared.

Then another question without drawing it out too much was (1) did "buyers "actively" purchase records on the Motown label? - (2) There of course are many Motown "sounding" records which of course never charted/you never hear on the radio but the "commercial" ones were pretty much ALL Motown, (in an hour this morning I've heard two already on Radio2!!) i guess that comes down to their connections at the time. (2)  ie the "Motown" ones got through and the Motown sounding ones didn't.

I'm not the greatest asker of questions but hope the above makes sense.

(1) Of course they did!  The Motown label sold literally millions of records.  Why would you ask such a question?  How else can  anything be bought but actively?  Can one passively buy a record?  Maybe you should clarify the intent of your question.

(2) Your impressions of the relative markets for Motown records and non-Motown records that sound "Motownish" aren't quite accurate, as many motown-sounding records produced by non-Motown record companies charted and even were regional and/or national, or even international hits.  Yes, your impression that a higher % of Motown's own "Motown-sounding records sold well than the non-Motown "Motownlike" records is correct.

  On 07/01/2024 at 11:42, Robbk said:

(1) Of course they did!  The Motown label sold literally millions of records.  Why would you ask such a question?  How else can  anything be bought but actively?  Can one passively buy a record?  Maybe you should clarify the intent of your question.

(2) Your impressions of the relative markets for Motown records and non-Motown records that sound "Motownish" aren't quite accurate, as many motown-sounding records produced by non-Motown record companies charted and even were regional and/or national, or even international hits.  Yes, your impression that a higher % of Motown's own "Motown-sounding records sold well than the non-Motown "Motownlike" records is correct.

Thanks Robbk

Your feedback is unsurpassed as usual! 

(2) Thankyou 

(1) I'm thinking this may have been more of a statement/thought than a question, but I'm in the UK, music lover since i suppose the mid/late80s. Things were different during that golden Motown period the US compared to European "tastes" /many more radio stations/much easier access to black music in general. I've always brought records i like, not which label they were on. But then music especially back then was i guess was a much bigger part of life..

I can only speak from my perspective (from the sales/chart hits in the UK) of course millions were sold, but growing up even to this day ALL "Motownish" radio plays/hits happen to ALL be on the Motown label. I cant think of any records at this point that were "Motownish" but NOT on the Motown label. Again (thinking aloud) the reason was the sheer size of Motown meant their records were able to become overseas hits. I guess the "closest" other label here in the UK was Philadelphia Int but that's another story.

Dax

 

 

  On 07/01/2024 at 13:07, Soul Salad said:

Thanks Robbk

Your feedback is unsurpassed as usual! 

(2) Thankyou 

(1) I'm thinking this may have been more of a statement/thought than a question, but I'm in the UK, music lover since i suppose the mid/late80s. Things were different during that golden Motown period the US compared to European "tastes" /many more radio stations/much easier access to black music in general. I've always brought records i like, not which label they were on. But then music especially back then was i guess was a much bigger part of life..

I can only speak from my perspective (from the sales/chart hits in the UK) of course millions were sold, but growing up even to this day ALL "Motownish" radio plays/hits happen to ALL be on the Motown label. I cant think of any records at this point that were "Motownish" but NOT on the Motown label. Again (thinking aloud) the reason was the sheer size of Motown meant their records were able to become overseas hits. I guess the "closest" other label here in the UK was Philadelphia Int but that's another story.

Dax

 

 

LOL now in on to the 70s with the Philadelphia - irrelevant, ignore🙄

  On 07/01/2024 at 13:07, Soul Salad said:

 

 

I can only speak from my perspective (from the sales/chart hits in the UK) of course millions were sold, but growing up even to this day ALL "Motownish" radio plays/hits happen to ALL be on the Motown label. I cant think of any records at this point that were "Motownish" but NOT on the Motown label. 

   Not sure if I would agree with that. To me these (and I'm sure there are plenty others) were Motown     "influenced" -

  Mary Love- "You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet"

Edwin Starr- "Agent 00 Soul", S.O.S. (Stop Her On Sight)

Artistics- "This Heart Of Mine"

Impressions- "Can't Satisfy"

Christine Cooper- "Heartaches Away My Boy"

Darrel Banks- Open The Door To Your Heart"

J.J. Barnes- "Real Humdinger", "Please Let Me In" 

Lorraine Chandler- "What Can I Do" 

 Just about anything on Ric-Tic 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Soul Salad said:

I can only speak from my perspective (from the sales/chart hits in the UK) of course millions were sold, but growing up even to this day ALL "Motownish" radio plays/hits happen to ALL be on the Motown label. I cant think of any records at this point that were "Motownish" but NOT on the Motown label. 

 

Answer:

With you first being a Soul fan during the 1980s and 1990s, naturally the Motown hits would be played as oldies a lot more  on BBC than even the biggest hits of the '60s motownish non-Motown records.  Clearly you didn't get the opportunity to listen to offshore "Pirate" Radio.  So, I understand your point of reference, which doesn't have even a remotely clear picture of what happened in The US record market back during the 1960s.

Edited January 8, 20241 yr by Robbk

Two other things to mention ....

BG got delusions of grandeur in the mid 60's, wanting his acts to get bookings at the likes of the Copa in New York. For that reason, he signed lots of MOR nightclub acts who were already playing similar clubs. Lots of their Motown recordings were MOR tat, I don't know how their stuff made it thru quality control meetings. The likes of Barbara McNair was one such act (Billy Eckstine another). Their LP's were a mix of good traditional Motown tracks + lots of MOR rubbish.

By the early 70's, BG had took his eye off the ball as far as the record side of the business was concerned. He put people in charge who weren't up to the task (Suzanne De Passe, etc). So from that point, lots of shite got released. Also vanity projects were allowed to go forward. Gwen Glenn productions, run by Gwen Gordy, being one such. From what I was told, she'd sign male acts that she wanted to date and then go partying with them for days on end. Not the ideal situation if you wanted good product.