The average age of the average Northern Soul punter is creeping towards the mid fifties and ill health (and worse) is becoming an issue for many.

At best things are increasingly more and more like an extended episode of drug addled, demented 'Grumpy Old Men'. Within three years it will be worse ...it'll be looking like 'The Last of The Summer Wine' with a better soundtrack.

There are many great ambassadors for the Northern Soul scene. And there are many terrible ones.

The Northern Soul scene's glorious past and the true wonder of the music we all love, the history of what is probably the longest running, most wonderful, passionate, eclectic youth cult in the UK is in danger of being dragged down by dementia, bitterness, selective memory and the refusal to relax the unwritten rules of 1974 while constantly flaunting them.

A younger crowd reading things on here would surely generally run a mile from the 'empty vessel' mentality of maudlin nostagia for things that happened more than 30 years ago? Like the protestations of a inmate of a care home refusing to get dressed in the morning, the semi delirious shouts against attempts to move forward in any way, shape, or form are getting louder, while the next generation, the caretakers, surely look on in horror, trying to understand why its happening and hoping the legacy isn't tarnished by the rantings?

How much longer can the whole thing last ?

  Bogue said:

The other trouble is Chalky, the modern lovers have been saying that since the mid 70's & still haven't managed to convert the masses ! Basicaly because it isn't Northern Soul ! It isn't fast thumping stomping irresistable music that just drags you on to the dance floor ! & that is why it is a retro scene, because that is the music that made & still makes Nsoul fans want to go to a night/nighter in the first place.

If you have got to water it down & change the music just to encourage youngsters what's the point ?

Keep saying, if youngsters find it & like it great, if they don't tuff. But one thing is for definate, you won't engineer it !

==============

It's not about engineering it surely, it's about giving it a make-over

  Winnie :-) said:

==============

It's not about engineering it surely, it's about giving it a make-over

But no matter how you dress it up Win it's never gonna' be anything other than Retro because the music just isn't made anymore is it ?

  good angel said:

Just been to the,Osteopath to treat my ostioarthritis ive had traction,Acupuncture about 20 plus needles in my back.WHEN IS THE NEXT NIGHTER, :fool:

Kev

BETTER THAN KNIVES, HOPE YOUR FEELING BETTER

  bearsoul said:

BETTER THAN KNIVES, HOPE YOUR FEELING BETTER

I'm lost now, i should have read the whole thread first.

One other thing i would like to say though, if people do want to change it to encourage youngsters i think the R&B gritty soul route might prove more fruitful.

At least they can reproduce that themselves a bit easier & maybe then they could put there own stamp on it & evolve it.

In my thinking the modern & mid temp sound is just to close to the stuff they hear in the clubs anyhow , so why would they need to go looking for anything different ?

  Bogue said:

But no matter how you dress it up Win it's never gonna' be anything other than Retro because the music just isn't made anymore is it ?

==============

I agree there's not going to be any new out and out sounding northern soul made, but still think the scene could incorporate other more modern styles of music as long as it's soulful and danceable. Not that that alone would attract the youth, but it would be a start

"So my friends would rather go to a night advertised as "Soul across the board" (or something) and we need people like my friends cos they're new blood. .......... They can't understand why there's all this talk about rare records when they've never owned a record, only use CDs and more likely MP3 players........"

As an old scrote I've obviously completely misunderstood the whole Northern Soul thing from the beginning. I have no choice but to fall on my sword and pack it in. But don't worry numbers won't fall as my mum and dad will be attending in my place.

Give me a f.....g break!!!

ROD

  Bogue said:

The other trouble is Chalky, the modern lovers have been saying that since the mid 70's & still haven't managed to convert the masses ! Basicaly because it isn't Northern Soul ! It isn't fast thumping stomping irresistable music that just drags you on to the dance floor ! & that is why it is a retro scene, because that is the music that made & still makes Nsoul fans want to go to a night/nighter in the first place.

If you have got to water it down & change the music just to encourage youngsters what's the point ?

Keep saying, if youngsters find it & like it great, if they don't tuff. But one thing is for definate, you won't engineer it !

There's plenty of uptempo danceable 70's 80's soul, modern, soulful funk, wahtever. Gop abroad, they play all genres and the dance flolors are full. One of the reasons IMHO is they don't have all the oldies, newies, modern baggage we have, it's just Soul Music.

  chalky said:

There's plenty of uptempo danceable 70's 80's soul, modern, soulful funk, wahtever. Gop abroad, they play all genres and the dance flolors are full. One of the reasons IMHO is they don't have all the oldies, newies, modern baggage we have, it's just Soul Music.

You're probably right Chalky, i'm just a cynical old git really, perhaps ditching the seperate rooms at do's might be the way forward.

Although the traditional Northern sound is my thing, i'm not adverse totally to hearing other stuff, & if a night provided a mix in equal proportion then i think that would be a good thing.

But unfortunatly one style seems to take over when it has been tried in the past, which is usually the new stuff just because it provides DJ's with easier access to ego tripping new finds regardless of quality (again IMHO)

That said the cynical old me still see's it as retro because the quality 60's finds that the 60's mafia & the Kent records boys were turning up seems to be dwindling, & for me, it was those finds that were most responsible for driving the scene, as we call it, forward over the last decade & not the modern stuff.

  Bogue said:

You're probably right Chalky, i'm just a cynical old git really, perhaps ditching the seperate rooms at do's might be the way forward.

Although the traditional Northern sound is my thing, i'm not adverse totally to hearing other stuff, & if a night provided a mix in equal proportion then i think that would be a good thing.

But unfortunatly one style seems to take over when it has been tried in the past, which is usually the new stuff just because it provides DJ's with easier access to ego tripping new finds regardless of quality (again IMHO)

That said the cynical old me still see's it as retro because the quality 60's finds that the 60's mafia & the Kent records boys were turning up seems to be dwindling, & for me, it was those finds that were most responsible for driving the scene, as we call it, forward over the last decade & not the modern stuff.

the Clubs abroad i have been to have been packed to the Rafters, with young and old, sussed people

playing nothing but 60,s northern,latin,r&b ska........smart club (Madrid)...boiler (Barcelona) pre 63 and

blue bar (Rome) also plenty of clubs over hear doing the same thing!....and its getting better and better.

Separate rooms works,look at Middleton,

  STEVIE.T said:

the Clubs abroad i have been to have been packed to the Rafters, with young and old, sussed people

playing nothing but 60,s northern,latin,r&b ska........smart club (Madrid)...boiler (Barcelona) pre 63 and

blue bar (Rome) also plenty of clubs over hear doing the same thing!....and its getting better and better.

Separate rooms works,look at Middleton,

Yep i suppose it dosen't appear to cause a problem there, i was just thinking along the lines of people complaining of decreasing numbers.

Perhaps it's not as gloomy after all then ? if it's taking off in Europe perhaps our youngsters will stumble across it on thier holidays & start a resurgence in the clubs here ? which as you say, may already be happening anyway.

Do any of them split up the genres with seperate rooms over there ?

  Bogue said:

Yep i suppose it dosen't appear to cause a problem there, i was just thinking along the lines of people complaining of decreasing numbers.

Perhaps it's not as gloomy after all then ? if it's taking off in Europe perhaps our youngsters will stumble across it on thier holidays & start a resurgence in the clubs here ? which as you say, may already be happening anyway.

Do any of them split up the genres with seperate rooms over there ?

they have been doing it Europe for a long time,they dont seperate rooms,if you want to hear 70,s 80,s

soul you go to a disco.....or same clubs on a different themed night and for the northern,60,etc to the clubs i have mentioned,and others and ofcourse.

It all comes down to different strokes for different folks.

  STEVIE.T said:

they have been doing it Europe for a long time,they dont seperate rooms,if you want to hear 70,s 80,s

soul you go to a disco.....or same clubs on a different themed night and for the northern,60,etc to the clubs i have mentioned,and others and ofcourse.

It all comes down to different strokes for different folks.

If you go elsewhere in Europe from where you mentioned, 70's 80's funk, northern and even more recent releases all exist happily along side each other. It's all soul music to them with no oldies or disco.

  chalky said:

If you go elsewhere in Europe from where you mentioned, 70's 80's funk, northern and even more recent releases all exist happily along side each other. It's all soul music to them with no oldies or disco.

i am sure you are right,Again 70,s 80, funk not my thing,so i go to the clubs that dont mix em!

The big attraction for Northern/All-nighter music for me was not only the stompers with the big vocals , but the diversity . Eddie Parker , James Fountain , Willi J & Co , E J Rice , Ramsey & Co , Norman Conners , ZZ& Co . Sam Fletcher ,Royal Robbins ,Glen Jones ,Florence Trap .etc etc Im sure this is a big attraction to new people now , once they get passed the Wigan Classics

  STEVIE.T said:

i am sure you are right,Again 70,s 80, funk not my thing,so i go to the clubs that dont mix em!

I think most soulies think "funk" means jazzfunk 12". So wrong.

How's this for a 'funk' record, Chuck Bridges? If you're into "northern" I'd be surprised if you don't like that?

Don't mistake funk for B T Express or anying UK on a 12" that is played at southport soul weekenders.

Edited March 13, 200718 yr by James Trouble

  Simon M said:

The big attraction for Northern/All-nighter music for me was not only the stompers with the big vocals , but the diversity . Eddie Parker , James Fountain , Willi J & Co , E J Rice , Ramsey & Co , Norman Conners , ZZ& Co . Sam Fletcher ,Royal Robbins ,Glen Jones ,Florence Trap .etc etc Im sure this is a big attraction to new people now , once they get passed the Wigan Classics

I like diversity too Simon, & things like James Fountain, Sam Fletcher, R&B, Beat Ballads & some of the mid tempo stuff mixes in well. But i think some of the modern stuff, especially this Soulful House stuff is just losing the plot somewhat ?

Just incase the Wigan Classics jibe was aimed at me

  JTrouble said:

I think most soulies think "funk" means jazzfunk 12". So wrong.

How's this for a 'funk' record, Chuck Bridges? If you're into "northern" I'd be surprised if you don't like that?

Don't mistake funk for B T Express or anying UK on a 12" that is played at southport soul weekenders.

You'd have to call BT Express super funky ..

  Bogue said:

I like diversity too Simon, & things like James Fountain, Sam Fletcher, R&B, Beat Ballads & some of the mid tempo stuff mixes in well. But i think some of the modern stuff, especially this Soulful House stuff is just losing the plot somewhat ?

Just incase the Wigan Classics jibe was aimed at me

Some of the Soulful house does belong in a house club yep i agree ! , but there's some that is good enough , you'd have to ask Martin Dixon though as he knows what works at todays niters better than me ..

Edited March 13, 200718 yr by Simon M

  Simon M said:

You'd have to call BT Express super funky ..

Yeah, ok, B T Express is funk, but not in the 'deepfunk' style that get's played by the heavy collectors like Wrighty or Butch. 'Funk' is such a misunderstood term. Funk is already played at many northern events and has been since the Casino but most punters don't realise it, or don't accept that it is "funk".

  Simon M said:

The big attraction for Northern/All-nighter music for me was not only the stompers with the big vocals , but the diversity . Eddie Parker , James Fountain , Willi J & Co , E J Rice , Ramsey & Co , Norman Conners , ZZ& Co . Sam Fletcher ,Royal Robbins ,Glen Jones ,Florence Trap .etc etc Im sure this is a big attraction to new people now , once they get passed the Wigan Classics

I run a Sunday do at a bar in the back end of nowhere in Warrington, have done for three years now - and the above examples are very much the road I go down, alongside some Patrice Rushen, Players Association, Webster Lewis etc.

There is very rarely a person in there that understands, or even knows the music that is played but it's busy more often than not - and there's always curiosity about the music.

I believe you have to give normal people (?) something to get a hold on with soul music, something half obvious occassionally does it, I'm sure you know anyhow, it allows them to make more sense of what's being played.

(I hope no ones sucking eggs )

  JTrouble said:

Yeah, ok, B T Express is funk, but not in the 'deepfunk' style that get's played by the heavy collectors like Wrighty or Butch. 'Funk' is such a misunderstood term. Funk is already played at many northern events and has been since the Casino but most punters don't realise it, or don't accept that it is "funk".

Ians got records like Chain Reaction too , now thats Super Funky soul and hard to find .any for sale

Edited March 13, 200718 yr by Simon M

  JTrouble said:

I think most soulies think "funk" means jazzfunk 12". So wrong.

How's this for a 'funk' record, Chuck Bridges? If you're into "northern" I'd be surprised if you don't like that?

Don't mistake funk for B T Express or anying UK on a 12" that is played at southport soul weekenders.

I do know what funk is,what ever disguise it wears,the funk beat doesn,t grab me,never has!

  Simon M said:

Ians got records like Chain Reaction too , now thats Super Funky soul and hard to find .any for sale

Might be hard pressed to find one for sale now (famous last words ) Think Wrighty was the first on the small batch that turned up. Luckily (for me ) I got in there second...the remaining copies seemed to be subject to a price rise of random (and substantial) proportions with the last copy the guy sold going at around a grand (English) Cracking two-sider.

  JTrouble said:

Yeah, ok, B T Express is funk, but not in the 'deepfunk' style that get's played by the heavy collectors like Wrighty or Butch. 'Funk' is such a misunderstood term. Funk is already played at many northern events and has been since the Casino but most punters don't realise it, or don't accept that it is "funk".

Never had a problem with the slightly funky sound personaly & always quite liked those sounds, like the one you put up by the way , it's the more over produced disco-ish stuff that i can't get on with.

I suppose i'm guilty of what you say really because if someone asked me what Funk was then i would quote artists like the afore mentioned B T Express,70's James Brown, Parliament, Bootsy Collins & stuff like that, the track you put up i would term as Northern with a funky slant, which as you correctly say, has been part of the Northern scene from the mid 70's & even earlier .

  Bogue said:

Never had a problem with the slightly funky sound personaly & always quite liked those sounds, like the one you put up by the way , it's the more over produced disco-ish stuff that i can't get on with.

I suppose i'm guilty of what you say really because if someone asked me what Funk was then i would quote artists like the afore mentioned B T Express,70's James Brown, Parliament, Bootsy Collins & stuff like that, the track you put up i would term as Northern with a funky slant, which as you correctly say, has been part of the Northern scene from the mid 70's & even earlier .

Bobby Franklin & James Fountain , would be ok too ? Then theres Pete-s who likes East coast connection ?

  JTrouble said:

Yeah, ok, B T Express is funk, but not in the 'deepfunk' style that get's played by the heavy collectors like Wrighty or Butch. 'Funk' is such a misunderstood term. Funk is already played at many northern events and has been since the Casino but most punters don't realise it, or don't accept that it is "funk".

Nonsense!

If a tune's played and we like it.. it's northern. If we don't like it.. it's funk or R&B.

Simple as that.

Edited March 30, 200718 yr by Dave

  Simon M said:

Bobby Franklin & James Fountain , would be ok too ? Then theres Pete-s who likes East coast connection ?

Certainly ! i proposed Bobby Franklin in the 70's thread ,would put it up if i didn't have a sound card problem at the moment.

Hey you can't take the piss out of Pete at the moment anyway he's not well, needs to keep calm, deep breath Pete

  Dave said:

Nonsense!

If a tune's played and we don't like it.. it's funk or R&B.

Simple as that.

No it's not it's Disco !!

  JTrouble said:

Don't Make Me Cry - chuck bridges -

16132 refosoul

Great record.......

  JTrouble said:

Don't Make Me Cry - chuck bridges -

16132 refosoul

Tiz a good un,I personally would class it as uptempo R&B... just up my street actually

Bazza

  bazza said:

Tiz a good un,I personally would class it as uptempo R&B... just up my street actually

Bazza

You'd be supprised how much R&B and Funk have got incommon, funk is the natural progression from R&B.

James im begining to regret letting that go to you well through Dave any way, but hey you snooze you lose

  Simon M said:

The big attraction for Northern/All-nighter music for me was not only the stompers with the big vocals , but the diversity . Eddie Parker , James Fountain , Willi J & Co , E J Rice , Ramsey & Co , Norman Conners , ZZ& Co . Sam Fletcher ,Royal Robbins ,Glen Jones ,Florence Trap .etc etc Im sure this is a big attraction to new people now , once they get passed the Wigan Classics

Just revisited this thread again. It got away from the original point somewhat but I think what simon m says here and what chalky and others have said is about right. I reckon too much pigeonholing and nostalgia will kill the Northern tag and it will turn into a mass 'Soul' scene.

Doesn't anyone wonder how many people are at one with 'our' music but don't frequent the scene? It would be interesting to learn just how many CD's were purchased over, let's say the last 5 years, as to the number of those frequenting 'soul do's'.

I say CD's because those wanting to hear the tunes aren't necessarily fixated with buying records.

Surely Ady can give us some interesting facts in respect of cd sales as could Jo as well?

Edited March 29, 200718 yr by ♫ Soulgirl ♫