Open your ears and your minds

[Chalky]

I said this on another topic.....

Ignore the rare and the trophy records. There are tons of 45s at sensible affordable prices that would make a cracking nighter.  Might not be new discoveries but many unknown to the majority cause the majority just don’t go digging anymore. They are force fed certain records, a certain collecting ethos, just like you are force fed the news agenda.  John Bowie it ain’t even rare, you’ve heard it a million times, switch of this force fed narrative and just go and dig, be that in record boxes or just listening to random cheap sound files on websites, open your ears and your minds. 

I don't understand the obsession over some the supposedly rarest yet most over played records on the scene....not just the northern classic oldies scene but go to any crossover or supposedly upfront venue and you will hear the same records month after month, year after year.  There is no imagination, hot boxers, little knowledge amongst the Djs because they've never had to dig, just go out and buy the big records Butch for Andy Dyson for example have found.  The classic side, same big records you've heard a million times over 40/50 years.

Would you listen to an episode of Top of The Pops from 1978 every week?  No you wouldn't so why do it with soul records?  As I said there are tons never played, virtually unknown to the masses, records that would make a great all-nighter.  Some of the fodder passed off as Northern Soul at some of the nighters now would never have got played just a few years ago, they are pretty poor but they cost a few bob.  

Has it come down to what a Dj spends to make them now as a DJ?  Must be because it isn't because of what they are playing in some cases.

[Kev Cane]

That's right Chalky, problem has always been there, however, I think that from the mid 80s onwards there was a definite shift from the "hail be to the DJ, we must aspire to obtain his gifts" " he's my mentor" culture. Don't get me wrong, it's still there, and I have huge respect for some of the DJs down the years, who've given me some great memories and introduced me to a multitude of awesome soul music, especially pre social media time's, but, as with everything, as time moves on, appreciation, knowledge and appropriate understanding of a subject matter is accumulated. Soul music being no exception 

Tempo, writer's, producers, sound exclusive to localities (Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia, West Coast etc) were now being considered more by the, by now, more knowledgeable collector, not just what was coming through the speakers at a venue, digging trips to the US were frequently unearthing stuff that, maybe, were not desirable to the dancing brigade,  but coveted among the collectors fraternity, out of these scenarios was borne the alternative gem's that you mention, I know you know this already Chalkster,  but I think the dye has been set long ago, never to change,there will always be those who will chase the "John Bowies" etc, and that's their choice, but, my point being, there's plenty of enlightened folk out there taking the alternative route in collecting quality soul music, let the so called "trophy"  hunter's crack on, they're not listening anyhow. 

Kev

[Kenb]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

I said this on another topic.....

Ignore the rare and the trophy records. There are tons of 45s at sensible affordable prices that would make a cracking nighter.  Might not be new discoveries but many unknown to the majority cause the majority just don’t go digging anymore. They are force fed certain records, a certain collecting ethos, just like you are force fed the news agenda.  John Bowie it ain’t even rare, you’ve heard it a million times, switch of this force fed narrative and just go and dig, be that in record boxes or just listening to random cheap sound files on websites, open your ears and your minds. 

I don't understand the obsession over some the supposedly rarest yet most over played records on the scene....not just the northern classic oldies scene but go to any crossover or supposedly upfront venue and you will hear the same records month after month, year after year.  There is no imagination, hot boxers, little knowledge amongst the Djs because they've never had to dig, just go out and buy the big records Butch for Andy Dyson for example have found.  The classic side, same big records you've heard a million times over 40/50 years.

Would you listen to an episode of Top of The Pops from 1978 every week?  No you wouldn't so why do it with soul records?  As I said there are tons never played, virtually unknown to the masses, records that would make a great all-nighter.  Some of the fodder passed off as Northern Soul at some of the nighters now would never have got played just a few years ago, they are pretty poor but they cost a few bob.  

Has it come down to what a Dj spends to make them now as a DJ?  Must be because it isn't because of what they are playing in some cases.

I get your point Chalky...but you've made an assumption people paying big bucks for records are DJ's who want tham to play out. I don't think that's the case.

[Chalky]

3 hours ago, Kenb said:

I get your point Chalky...but you've made an assumption people paying big bucks for records are DJ's who want tham to play out. I don't think that's the case.

I think its the the Dj scenario that is driving the prices.

[Hooker1951]

They can have the so called best and rare records in the world if they don’t play them in the right order for the crowd in front of them  their spot is meaningless  and forgotten  you might remember a record but not the spot, A spot lasts  an hour not 5 minutes , I’ve said it before and I will say it again it’s not the jokes it’s the way you tell them.

KR

Mick L

[Kenb]

3 hours ago, Chalky said:

I think its the the Dj scenario that is driving the prices.

I think people are buying them and flipping them 6 months- 18 months down the line OR truly putting them in their boxes…I concede  perhaps a few DJs might be driving the prices.

[Greedy]

9 hours ago, Chalky said:

I said this on another topic.....

Ignore the rare and the trophy records. There are tons of 45s at sensible affordable prices that would make a cracking nighter.  Might not be new discoveries but many unknown to the majority cause the majority just don’t go digging anymore. They are force fed certain records, a certain collecting ethos, just like you are force fed the news agenda.  John Bowie it ain’t even rare, you’ve heard it a million times, switch of this force fed narrative and just go and dig, be that in record boxes or just listening to random cheap sound files on websites, open your ears and your minds. 

I don't understand the obsession over some the supposedly rarest yet most over played records on the scene....not just the northern classic oldies scene but go to any crossover or supposedly upfront venue and you will hear the same records month after month, year after year.  There is no imagination, hot boxers, little knowledge amongst the Djs because they've never had to dig, just go out and buy the big records Butch for Andy Dyson for example have found.  The classic side, same big records you've heard a million times over 40/50 years.

Would you listen to an episode of Top of The Pops from 1978 every week?  No you wouldn't so why do it with soul records?  As I said there are tons never played, virtually unknown to the masses, records that would make a great all-nighter.  Some of the fodder passed off as Northern Soul at some of the nighters now would never have got played just a few years ago, they are pretty poor but they cost a few bob.  

Has it come down to what a Dj spends to make them now as a DJ?  Must be because it isn't because of what they are playing in some cases.

I've only done a few spots at nighters but I've never been scared to go in different directions as I see how people enjoy what I am playing.  The  moments I remember the most are 

Playing The soulville all-stars I'm gonna get to you then saying here is their other release,  nobody to blame but myself,  the floor filled .and people were asking what it was.

At a mainstream niter playing Lee Andrews and the hearts can't do without you and clydie king bout love. Great forgotten 100% stompers . Again people dancing to cheap records asking me what they were. 

I was happier with people dancing to the cheap stuff rather than the tomangoes. Yes i played it but felt pressed to play it. 

Like you say chalky.  Thousands of great and cheap records.  But don't get me started about totally ignored Flip sides.. 

So so many awesome records that people just have never heard.  

 

[Solidsoul]

I think one of the reasons dj's tend to play the popular records is because most people will know them and will dance. But I know it can be boring listening to a full hour of very predictable expensive records.

The dance floor had always kept the Northern Soul scene on the right track. But when dj's don't have to play to the floor they wander off down lanes and alley ways of music, that only they know! Then it becomes boring for the average punter.

When there used to be weekly venues playing the same records to the same people it was easier to break new sounds regularly. 

But things are so fragmented now with what people know, and how often they go out, it's not surprising the dj's can't promote the lesser known goodies!

Many moons ago when I used to dj, I would try and play two out of three that most people would know then the third something lesser known I wanted to push forward!

This kept things entertaining to the crowd, but also got new records accepted. A compromise, but it seemed to work for the dancers and also for the collector/listeners. 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Solidsoul

[Benji]

13 hours ago, Chalky said:

... There are tons of 45s at sensible affordable prices that would make a cracking nighter. 
 

Sorry for picking out just this bit. But I have to say in my opinion the days of great allnighter tunes at affordable prices are long gone. Everything even half decent is three figures nowadays with the odd exception.

[Geeselad]

This is what I was really driving at with the 'when did it become about rarity?' Thread, there was shit loads of great cheap records played at all the great venues of the 70's, they don't get played now!

Playlists are the scourge of the scene, can't remember the last time I read one and it wasn't full of the same old, tired rarities. These lists sat nothing about the imagination of the DJs other than how much they've spent and how big there ego's are. The big problem with the upfront scene has become exactly the same, Willie Dale is the new John and the weirdest. 

[Geeselad]

17 minutes ago, Benji said:

Sorry for picking out just this bit. But I have to say in my opinion the days of great allnighter tunes at affordable prices are long gone. Everything even half decent is three figures nowadays with the odd exception.

Sorry I disagree, but then I'm not sure where these nighter tunes can actually get played to a credible audience nowadays.

[Geeselad]

3 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

I think one of the reasons dj's tend to play the popular records is because most people will know them and will dance. But I know it can be boring listening to a full hour of very predictable expensive records.

The dance floor had always kept the Northern Soul scene on the right track. But when dj's don't have to play to the floor they wander off down lanes and alley ways of music, that only they know! Then it becomes boring for the average punter.

When there used to be weekly venues playing the same records to the same people it was easier to break new sounds regularly. 

But things are so fragmented now with what people know, and how often they go out, it's not surprising the dj's can't promote the lesser known goodies!

Many moons ago when I used to dj, I would try and play two out of three that most people would know then the third something lesser known I wanted to push forward!

This kept things entertaining to the crowd, but also got new records accepted. A compromise, but it seemed to work for the dancers and also for the collector/listeners. 

 

Integration is the key, totally agree. Setting up a great lesser known with something more familiar often works but so can contrasting the tempo and atmosphere to create a reaction in the room. 

[Chalky]

12 hours ago, Geeselad said:

Sorry I disagree, but then I'm not sure where these nighter tunes can actually get played to a credible audience nowadays.

They can't, they have little interest, you have a hardcore of a couple hundred give or take and the focus of this in the main who Dj is the rarity rather than the quality.  Some of the stuff I heard on my last nighter outing from some of the Djs was terrible and has given me little interest to return to one.  There are plenty of lesser known cheaper records out there though

[Mal C]

More than plenty... and allot from artists that have many collectables to their name, I mean in plays out, not always rarity.  For example,

You can get Margie Joseph "Punish Me" on Volt for a tenner... which is an utterly brilliant record, that's got to be a steal given how much you pay for  "I'll Always Love you", or "Nobody" and the rest of her Atlantic sides, and thats an easy one.  How about Moody Scott - We've Gotta Save it on SS7, cheap as chips, but the totally right groove... two stunning tracks for what 20/25 quid all in... 

Ignored sixties sides, The Jammers - Doin' The Look on Jubilee, thats under a tenner, but musically right up there, how about the The Ideals - I Got Lucky, seriously good chicago soul, for what £10/15 at most...

These are all 'known' as well, if  The festivals - You got the Makings on Smash... can fetch so much, having been a five pound record, these have to be a steal right?   I could go on...

[Jez Jones]

19 hours ago, Benji said:

Sorry for picking out just this bit. But I have to say in my opinion the days of great allnighter tunes at affordable prices are long gone. Everything even half decent is three figures nowadays with the odd exception.

thing is...there must be lots of great allnighter tunes at affordable prices...its just they  probably dont get played. How can a DJ stand out from the crowd (and yes there is a crowd of DJ's out there) by playing affordable records.....

 

[Simon T]

2 minutes ago, Jez Jones said:

thing is...there must be lots of great allnighter tunes at affordable prices...its just they  probably dont get played. How can a DJ stand out from the crowd (and yes there is a crowd of DJ's out there) by playing affordable records.....

 

change their name to Marc Dubson ?

[Jez Jones]

2 minutes ago, Simon T said:

change their name to Marc Dubson ?

or Carl Cox

 

[Kenb]

34 minutes ago, Jez Jones said:

thing is...there must be lots of great allnighter tunes at affordable prices...its just they  probably dont get played. How can a DJ stand out from the crowd (and yes there is a crowd of DJ's out there) by playing affordable records.....

 

Why aren’t they played then? Is it because in reality there aren’t lots of allnighter tunes at affordable prices….just affordable N.S.tunes.

[Geeselad]

3 hours ago, Kenb said:

Why aren’t they played then? Is it because in reality there aren’t lots of allnighter tunes at affordable prices….just affordable N.S.tunes.

Ken, to quote the Scottish vernacular, I disnae ken?

[Geeselad]

22 hours ago, Kenb said:

Why aren’t they played then? Is it because in reality there aren’t lots of allnighter tunes at affordable prices….just affordable N.S.tunes.

They aren't played because, as chalky intonates ego's get in the way. why play a cheap record when you can show off and play what you spent £3k on last month. That's the default setting for most.  

[Kenb]

1 hour ago, Geeselad said:

They aren't played because, as chalky intonates ego's get in the way. why play a cheap record when you can show off and play what you spent £3k on last month. That's the default setting for most.  

I wouldn’t want to go out and listen to a DJ playing affordable records I have, and that I can play at home myself.

[Emjaygee]

53 minutes ago, Kenb said:

I wouldn’t want to go out and listen to a DJ playing affordable records I have, and that I can play at home myself.

there aren't many records you can't hear at home these days, with the massive coverage of the interweb and facetube etc.

I would like to hear some of the things I have in my collection  to hear them on a big sound system in a big room.

DJs need to mix it up a bit to keep it interesting, some big tunes to fill the floor then sprinkle in some lesser known (affordable or not) to the crowd.

[Imperial C]

A bit of creativity and a blend of styles goes a long way in my book, If its good soul I dance, regardless of price tag, no complication. 

 

[Kev Cane]

Not a niter, but Doncsster, Horse and Groom, Sunday Chillout,  for a lot of years, was all about the alternative from the same old, same old bollocks, we used to get there at midday prompt, to secure seats where we could hear every note played. The remit seemed to be, play off the cuff, from the heart, no pressure, 3 guests were invited to play from their collections, willy waving not encouraged,  unheard of, and lower tempo records applauded to the rafters, everyone seemed to be scratching around for an alternative from the usual predictable hum drum of DJ spots packed with records replicated from other unimaginative willy waving sets, for a few years, Horse and Groom, not a niter, I know, answered the subject matter of this thread, Paradise, imho

[Chalky]

10 hours ago, Kenb said:

I wouldn’t want to go out and listen to a DJ playing affordable records I have, and that I can play at home myself.

Andy Dyson played a good few at Ashton, he played another batch on Dean's show as did Tim Ashibende who played an hour all under £50

[Jez Jones]

14 hours ago, Kenb said:

I wouldn’t want to go out and listen to a DJ playing affordable records I have, and that I can play at home myself.

But what if the DJ plays affordable records you aint got and therefore can't play at home...winner winner innit ?

[Geeselad]

4 hours ago, Chalky said:

Andy Dyson played a good few at Ashton, he played another batch on Dean's show as did Tim Ashibende who played an hour all under £50

Tim set at FTMNTC last week was ace, littered with great underplayed, available records.

[Jez Jones]

3 hours ago, Geeselad said:

Tim set at FTMNTC last week was ace, littered with great underplayed, available records.

Is that because he's confident in the quality of his choices and doesn't need to impress with a list of 5K records....oh wait a minute...thats another thread

[Benji]

16 hours ago, Chalky said:

Andy Dyson played a good few at Ashton, he played another batch on Dean's show as did Tim Ashibende who played an hour all under £50

Wanna share a few of these tunes? I'm very curious......

[Happy Feet]

"Wait A Minit Baby ,  apart from my  bad intro  , and it's very late , every tune started  off being worth about £1. or so , so really what does it matter if the dance floor is busy or "wait a minute baby " I've danced to this a million times before , I'm hopefully one day going to walk into a venue that plays across the board , dance floor fillers that are just that . Worth a £1 , Who gives a shit . , So was the Montclair's when first played .

We all agree that raraty doesn't mean that a tune is great , just desirable, so why not just play a cross section of tunes worth £1. or £100,000 , if they've got that danceabilty ingredient that we all desire , surely that's what it's all about, yes you can have your satellite rooms for what ever style RnB , Lowrider , 60s , 70s 80s, and what other type of soul , that as evolved into Northern soul , but the dancefloor as to be what it's all about , uplifting, happy , and full , or am I "Living In A World Of Fantasy" 

[Kenb]

10 hours ago, Benji said:

Wanna share a few of these tunes? I'm very curious......

I'd like to see that too Benji

[Kenb]

22 hours ago, Jez Jones said:

But what if the DJ plays affordable records you aint got and therefore can't play at home...winner winner innit ?

Affordable AND good (for DJ purposes at nighters) don't often go together. Rare and underplayed are by their very nature expensive. Sure DJ's can slip more affordable 45's in their sets...but if they are any good they won't stay affordable for long.

 

[Shinehead]

Why not add 10 records of affordable underplayed records each that the posters on this thread  think would give the the big money records a run at a   upfront nighter.

 

 

[Twoshoes]

6 minutes ago, Kenb said:

I'd like to see that too Benji

 B side of Guilty Al Green, B side of Sexy Mamma the Moments another, B side of Isley bros I guess i'll always love you was another i think, 

2 minutes ago, Kenb said:

but if they are any good they won't stay affordable for long.

if not affordable then available, I bought a couple mentioned on another thread by Mal C, could be coincidence but one had sold same day he posted which begs the question once the cheaper ones have been bought is the bench mark set at what's there on say discogs which I think, could be wrong is the easiest port of call for many as a guide to a ball park price. 

   Since starting buying again 4yrs ago and not getting out since Covid  so not seeing sales boxes etc  I've found it's very much a case of searching the net ,watching ebay etc to get a record at the price you want to pay, no dealer or site is consistently cheaper than any other though taking discogs again as an example too many on there are over ambitious shall we say in what they expect to achieve or maybe they are not actually bothered about selling.

[Twoshoes]

8 minutes ago, Shinehead said:

Why not add 10 records of affordable underplayed records

The Knight Brothers Temptation Bout To get me springs to mind with that suggestion, not as a suggested play more how much money do you think I've got to spend on records, to quote another song Willpower Weak temptation Strong, that said there's always savings to be made when records enter the mix

[Mach]

I could see the senario where if a dj played a very good unknown cheap record and people clambered round the decks to see what it was and learnt it could be picked up on discogs for a tenner they,d quickly lose intrest..

[Geeselad]

Not surprising nobody is ready to post a list of underplayed cheap tunes, far to many here that would scoff and sneer. It's the 'I've got better tunes than that' attitude, 'I must have I paid a lot of money for them'.

I take the point to a certain extent, conventional northern that's good always command a premium. It's The odd ball, left field and just plain weird stuff I love tbh, a occasionally these you can find. 

[Shinehead]

I only posted an hour ago so no chance for people to respond yet, just intrigued to know what records they would play at a cheap underplayed spot at a nighter .

It is only a scenario, not likely to happen , no point in saying loads of records out there at a reasonable price that need playing at a nighter and then not having a conviction go put a list up. 

If people scorn f*** em.

 

[Jamie Walker]

I’ll throw one in then, Williams and Watson find yourself someone to love - still relatively cheap

[Jessie Pinkman]

1 hour ago, Jamie Walker said:

I’ll throw one in then, Williams and Watson find yourself someone to love - still relatively cheap

Great record indeed Jamie,  W & W label mate Major Harris "Loving you more" always did it for me as well,

Also a record I first heard Ian Levine play at the Mecca by The Peoples Choice "Lost & found", I know neither are unknown obscurities but would definitely sound great in a low budget, non rare set.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Jessie Pinkman

[Geeselad]

Tim A played a great okeh track, think it was Ernie Lucas? And while we're in okeh for starters, how about this

https://youtu.be/7Z35by1NWXA?si=GqQGos7VyaaPRYhF

 

[Shinehead]

 

[Mach]

 Heres a couple of cheapos that sound far more expensive than they are.

 

[Mal C]

Good suff, like Freddie Jayne allot. Neon Richards has been played allot in the past.. another very good track Think there is allot of this early stuff still out there ready to mess with our minds!

[Douglaschip]

I always think The Manhattans -  All I need is your love - Carnival sounds like an expensive niter tune!!

Can be picked up for 15 / 20 quid - money well spent.

[Douglaschip]

5 hours ago, Shinehead said:

 

Great double sider with 'What is this' on t'other side for the price of a couple of pints!

[The City Never S]

Went to Congleton recently, saw Tim A on the lineup was looking forward to his spot. I was not disappointed. An hour of top quality 60’s, with a small sprinkling of 70’s. Cheap, rare-expensive, Motown LP tracks, unissued tracks incl. Kent anniversary, underplayed and rare oldies. The full spectrum. It can be done, Tim did it. Some imagination and thought, not letting the ego of “Got to play this, or play that” because it’s expensive. F... the snobs, most of the crowd don’t give a monkey’s how much it’s worth. Including the people who go to the underplayed nights. They just wanna hear or dance to good music.

Were not talking of the eradication of the rare stuff in favour of cheapies, because we all love it. But a proper balance. It can be done, anyone who says it can’t is reading from a script, not thinking outside of the norm.

i.e don’t think what it is, think what it can be. Use your imagination. Not radical steps, it doesn’t need to be.

Tim’s spot gave me a bit of a boost that night, a reaffirmation of what rare/ Northern soul can be. Not what it’s become, boring, stale, and predictable.

 

[Geeselad]

Despite hating playlists here goes, pulled at random from me box, could of listed 100 tbh. Bit of a mix but with an eye on a prospective dance- flu-er. 

 

Benny latimore- I got news for you

Helen curry - I want you, I need you

Johnny Newbag- got to get you back (another tim spun the other week)

Frankie coe- get it jerk

Keanya Collins - it ain't no secret

Johnny sayles- anything for you

Barbara and the browns- you don't love me

Sir mack rice- it's alright

Ov wright - ace of spades

Taste of grey- for once in my life

Or you can have slowly molding for the millionth time!

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Geeselad

[Happy Feet]

 

This surely although brand new release on 45 , taken from the album must have some chance of making the grade £8 .plus p+p , under a tenner in 2023 

[Paul-s]

On 20/09/2023 at 10:57, Chalky said:

I said this on another topic.....

Ignore the rare and the trophy records. There are tons of 45s at sensible affordable prices that would make a cracking nighter.  Might not be new discoveries but many unknown to the majority cause the majority just don’t go digging anymore. They are force fed certain records, a certain collecting ethos, just like you are force fed the news agenda.  John Bowie it ain’t even rare, you’ve heard it a million times, switch of this force fed narrative and just go and dig, be that in record boxes or just listening to random cheap sound files on websites, open your ears and your minds. 

I don't understand the obsession over some the supposedly rarest yet most over played records on the scene....not just the northern classic oldies scene but go to any crossover or supposedly upfront venue and you will hear the same records month after month, year after year.  There is no imagination, hot boxers, little knowledge amongst the Djs because they've never had to dig, just go out and buy the big records Butch for Andy Dyson for example have found.  The classic side, same big records you've heard a million times over 40/50 years.

Would you listen to an episode of Top of The Pops from 1978 every week?  No you wouldn't so why do it with soul records?  As I said there are tons never played, virtually unknown to the masses, records that would make a great all-nighter.  Some of the fodder passed off as Northern Soul at some of the nighters now would never have got played just a few years ago, they are pretty poor but they cost a few bob.  

Has it come down to what a Dj spends to make them now as a DJ?  Must be because it isn't because of what they are playing in some cases.

Exactly. 

"Would you listen to an episode of Top of The Pops from 1978 every week?  No you wouldn't so why do it with soul records?" 

Great analogy. Not only that, they dance the same routine every week, like 'Pans People' acting out a childish narrative with empty motifs/gestures: that now litter the internet as if this is authentic Northern Soul dancing, and in fact proclaiming that it is. It's beyond a parody and involves no digging, no listening and no commitment.

The scene that they re-enact (as if it never moved on musically) was never static musically. I went each week, through the decades, to hear what was breaking and always did. Thats what made it exciting. Nowadays, its just generally unadventurous, uninspired and constantly murdering tunes through hammering them to death: when many were already hammered to death!