Rarities Etc Now Reduced

[Guest uroffal]

Sound files to follow a bit later ...

Carol Woods & the Executives - Heart Breaker - Perfecto (VG+/VG++) £350

Superb copy of this, rarely seen for sale, top-drawer, semi-known. £400 on John Manship's site, but seen for as much as £600 in recent times. One or two top DJs finally getting behind this and it has EVERYTHING - the price will rocket over the next year or two!

Herbert Hunter - The Big Oak Tree - Poncello (Mint-) £150

Brilliant old (forgotten) Pat Brady spin from the Stafford days. Rarely seen for sale and almost certainly the rarest release on the label. Books at £200 in John Manship's latest guide. Should be massive!

Micky Roberts - As The World Turns - Pulse (VG++) £75

Won't be to everyone's taste, but this rarely seen and barely known rarity books at £200 in both John Manship's latest guide and Tim Brown's. Soundclip to follow ...

Maximilian - You'd Better - Magic Circle (EX) £60

Not as rare as the release that credits 'Max Uballez', but still rare enough to have a book value of £150 in John Manship's latest guide. An old Keb spin if memory serves me right. BARGAIN!

Majestics - Wasting Time - JV (Mint-) £50

Growing interest in this has seen its guide value rise to £150 - grab yourself a bargain.

Bobby Bland - Shoes - Duke (Mint) £30

Classic. Stone mint copy - looks like I just popped down the local record store and picked it up - vinyl and label retain original gloss! Books at £50 - bargain!

World's Funkiest Band - When You're Alone - California Gold (Mint) £25

The same as Buddy Connor on Breakthrough - or is it? (I don't want to start all that again!) Either way, it's a brilliant piece of SOUL music at a fraction of the £150 + you'd need to bag a Buddy Connor! AND, unlike lots of copies this does NOT have a storage warp.

Full money back guarantee if not completely satisfied. Payment via Paypal, personal cheque or cash (personal cheques must clear before records are dispatched).

PM or email UROFFAL@AOL.COM for further information or to reserve any item.

Edited March 11, 2007 by uroffal

[Jo Law]

THE CAROL WOODS HAS A LOVELY DREAMY B SIDE AS WELL-OOHH BABY---

[Guest uroffal]

THE CAROL WOODS HAS A LOVELY DREAMY B SIDE AS WELL-OOHH BABY---

You're dead right mate and thanks for reminding me (I forgot to mention that!) - will upload a soundfile of that side too later

[Jo Law]

THATS THE SIDE I BOUGHT IT FOR MANY MOONS AGO-------

[Guest uroffal]

First up: Herbert Hunter - The Big Oak Tree.

Uploaded this myself at someone's request sometime ago so is from the actual record for sale -

More sound to follow

[Guest uroffal]

Maximilian - You'd Better can be heard here (again, is the actual copy for sale)

[Guest uroffal]

As The World Turns - micky roberts - pulse



£200 in the guide books so must be pretty rare - £75 sounds like a bargain, but willing to listen to offers

[Guest uroffal]

Majestics on JV can be heard here

Will listen to offers (even though £50 is a third of John Manship's price!)

[Guest Trevski]

Hurry up with the Carol Woods

[Guest uroffal]

Heart Breaker - carol woods & the executives - perfecto 7


Just for Trevski here's Carol Woods - if this isn't massive in 12 months time then there's no hope left for this scene!Will post the delightful flip in a mo too

[Guest uroffal]

Ooh Baby - carol woods & the executives - perfecto 7


The sublime flip to 'Heart Breaker' - doesn't play quite as well as the top side has a bit of crackle a some light clicks towards the end, which I think you should be able to hear. Still plays nice though.

[Guest just mo]

THE CAROL WOODS HAS A LOVELY DREAMY B SIDE AS WELL-OOHH BABY---

Hi Jo.

Just listened to this. It's very nice!

[Pete S]

What would you do without the aid of Manship's book or website?

Edited March 8, 2007 by Pete-S

[Guest uroffal]

Do you price anything without the aid of Manship's book or website?

Both Tim Brown's guide (now quite old) and John's are exactly that, guides. I - like many others on here and on ebay and at events - mention those prices as a guide to the book value of the record compiled by well-known and well respected dealers and collectors. I think we all feel that the guides are way off on some items (some too high and some too low), but it is the job of the buyer to determine whether they want to pay that price for a record or not.

None of the records for sale above have been priced by using the guides alone or they'd be sight more expensive wouldn't they? They are all lower (some more than a third lower) than those guide prices because, IMHO, they are priced fairly and reasonably depending on their demand, rarity and value. If I genuinely feel that a record is worth more than those guide prices then the price would reflect that also.

Don't personally see any problem with mentioning the guide price. I know you've got a thing about this and people using popsike and ebay as a guide to values, but to be honest in the global marketplace that now exists don't all these factors need considering when valuing, selling and buying?

[Pete S]

Don't personally see any problem with mentioning the guide price. I know you've got a thing about this and people using popsike and ebay as a guide to values, but to be honest in the global marketplace that now exists don't all these factors need considering when valuing, selling and buying?

It's not that I've got a thing about it, it's just you mention it so many times! No offence intended, honestly.

[Guest uroffal]

It's not that I've got a thing about it, it's just you mention it so many times! No offence intended, honestly.

No offence taken at all mate.

I think it's well worth discussing. Personally - and I expect many would agree - I think that the guides are a major factor these days (as are popsike and ebay). All throw up some jaw-dropping prices at times that bear no relevance to rarity or real value. There are people who will pay well over the odds for certain (usually demand) items. I've sold stuff on here in the past that has subsequently been auctioned by John Manship only to see the price more than double on those auctions. Had I held on until they'd been auctioned then I'd have made 25% more on the sale. So this is another major factor.

When someone requests a price or value for a record on here they usually get the following: someone who sold a copy last month on ebay for £X; the price achieved in a Manship auction; the guide price.

The guides (and the internet in particular) have changed the way prices and values work forever I'm afraid. It's not like it was in the '70s or '80s where prices were just driven by demand and other dealers' sales boxes or lists - there are other factors and the guides, popsike etc are available to all so there are fewer bargains to be had. I'm sure many will remember Black Grape lists from the '80s? I - and many others - bought some very rare items from there for no more than a couple of pounds and did so regularly. That would never happen now because every dealer will check against the guides etc incase they sell a £600 + record for a tenner.

Fair play to you for never mentioning the guide price in your listings, which are usually very fairly priced, but TBH I don't see that it does any harm to do so or to highlight how much cheaper the records can be obtained for. I could argue that by doing so I'm highlighting the fact that the guides fall short of the actual market value of many of the records listed.

[Pete S]

I think the price guides are invaluable but I use them mainly for tracking down the records, not pricing them. And the point is, they are called GUIDES yet they aren't used as guides, they're used as gospel

[Paul-s]

What would you do without the aid of Manship's book or website?

I agree Pete. I wish people would stop quoting those books. They are way,way, off. For example, in Manships Leonard Adair- That Smile Upon Your Face is £50. Thats so far off its fucking ridiculous!! £600 is nearer......thats one of hundreds of examples and then you have the thousands of tunes NOT covered......So please stop using Brown and Manship as a justification for prices. As Ive said before, I have ebayed tunes and not had one bid. Then traded them on to Sam who's traded them on to JM and lo and behold, once JM's added a few lines "every serious dj should have one" for example, its sold for twice whatt I was asking a few weeks earlier. To me it shows how lazy some people have become at searching for records....they are almost hand reared on these crap guides!! Just my opinion.

paul-s

[Guest uroffal]

[Pete S]

So please stop using Brown and Manship as a justification for prices.

paul-s

Not sure that I'm 'using Brown and Manship as a justification for prices' - merely pointing to the guide price and pricing them IMHO realistically (although not suggesting that you are aiming this at me), but none of the above items are really overpriced. If honest most are underpriced - the Carol Woods is very rare and the Herbert Hunter very rarely shows up. The others are much more realistically priced than the guide prices quoted, which are there to highlight the fact that they are and should be much cheaper.

Don't think anyone - on here at least - uses the guides as gospel for the very reasons you specify: lots of VERY rare items underpriced in them and lots of very common ones overpriced.

At the end of the day it's the customer who decides the sales value of the records, not whether someone compiles a price guide or whether someone quotes it.

It was mainly because of the Herbert Hunter that I even commented, I absolutely disagree with you (and any book) that says that this is rare.

As for people not using the guides as gospel: most (not all) of our friends in the USA certainly use it as gospel.

[Guest uroffal]

It was mainly because of the Herbert Hunter that I even commented, I absolutely disagree with you (and any book) that says that this is rare.

As for people not using the guides as gospel: most (not all) of our friends in the USA certainly use it as gospel.

Well, I've not seen many copies recently. It's far rarer than lots of records that regularly appear on ebay and elsewhere and sell for considerably more (merely due to demand). If you had a copy what would you charge for it?

I'm always happy to take offers from people and received an offer close to that price yesterday from the states, which I accepted last night (although this offer may well be withdrawn now). At the end of the day I either reduce the record because it is overpriced according to the market or I keep it. Had I seen 2 or 3 copies on here or ebay sell for less than £50 then the record would be priced accordingly.

Of the three on this label that are of interest: there are lots of copies of Levert Allison and this is around the £40 mark; there are a few copies that appear from time to time of the Jades, which Andy Dyson listed sometime ago for £125 (I think); IMHO there are far fewer copies of the Herbert Hunter.

I hope that John Manship sees this and then perhaps he can comment at his valuation of the record.

Edited March 8, 2007 by uroffal

[paultp]

I think the price guides are invaluable but I use them mainly for tracking down the records, not pricing them. And the point is, they are called GUIDES yet they aren't used as guides, they're used as gospel

Nail on the head there Pete

The printed price guides can only be used as a guide to what someone would like to sell a record for, they cannot take into account the effect of demand in increasing/lowering going rates. Maybe the underpriced ones are records the guide writer doesn't want people chasing .

Records only sell for what someone is willing to pay for them, so even popsike isn't that much use as sometimes 2 people bid a record past its reasonable selling price cos the both really want it at that time. Quite often I check it for a record and see prices sometimes hundreds of dollars apart

I'm only an amateur at this but when I price a record its normally on the basis of what I paid for it together with a look at the guides and popsike and also a check of recent lists. I used to sometimes get ahead of demand but as I rarely get out these days I'm normally surprised.

Still all you can do is price em up and hope someone is interested.

Cheers

Paul

[Guest uroffal]

As for people not using the guides as gospel: most (not all) of our friends in the USA certainly use it as gospel.

I did say that 'most - on here at least - do not use the guides as gospel'. Of course the US dealers do, because without the guides they wouldn't know the market value of a record on a scene in the UK of which they have no other (or limited) knowledge.

[Guest uroffal]

Nail on the head there Pete

The printed price guides can only be used as a guide to what someone would like to sell a record for, they cannot take into account the effect of demand in increasing/lowering going rates. Maybe the underpriced ones are records the guide writer doesn't want people chasing .

Records only sell for what someone is willing to pay for them, so even popsike isn't that much use as sometimes 2 people bid a record past its reasonable selling price cos the both really want it at that time. Quite often I check it for a record and see prices sometimes hundreds of dollars apart

I'm only an amateur at this but when I price a record its normally on the basis of what I paid for it together with a look at the guides and popsike and also a check of recent lists. I used to sometimes get ahead of demand but as I rarely get out these days I'm normally surprised.

Still all you can do is price em up and hope someone is interested.

Cheers

Paul

This is exactly what I am saying, most people whether buying or selling will include those as factors when judging the value of a record - I'm no different. Not everyone has a copy of the guides and like almost everyone who sells on here I quote as a guide the listed prices. Of course it is done to encourage sales and to show that the prices are IMO reasonable.

Like you say all you can do is price them and hope someone buys them.

[Pete S]

Of the three on this label that are of interest: there are lots of copies of Levert Allison and this is around the £40 mark;

Unless I'm mixing it up with the Allison record - I thought it was like 50 quid! I just remember having one a few years back which just wouldn't sell

[Wally Francis]

After seeing your recent list Pete i think your being a bit contradictory see below.Are you not using e-bay as some sort of guide here ?

ROSCOE & FRIENDS - BROADWAY SISSY / BARNYARD SOUL - TEC

EX 125

Going by recent Ebay prices, this might be a bargain!

[Pete S]

After seeing your recent list Pete i think your being a bit contradictory see below.Are you not using e-bay as some sort of guide here ?

ROSCOE & FRIENDS - BROADWAY SISSY / BARNYARD SOUL - TEC

EX 125

Going by recent Ebay prices, this might be a bargain!

No quite the opposite, I see the Ebay prices then take no f*cking notice of them, how is that being contradictory?

[Guest uroffal]

Unless I'm mixing it up with the Allison record - I thought it was like 50 quid! I just remember having one a few years back which just wouldn't sell

The Levert Allison is around the £50 mark and doesn't sell easily - it's certainly the most common of the three (remember them all being on an Ion tape in the early '80s so suspect they were all 'discovered' at the same time) so perhaps you are mixing the two up. Like I said the Jades is pretty hard to find (and will have its day eventually), the Herbert Hunter I've not seen for sale for some years, although I don't get out to venues and am not every mailing list there is - the last copy I saw was on a Pat Brady list some 3 or 4 years ago and I think was £60, John Manship (please don't chastise me for saying his name again ) hasn't had a copy for at least two or three years.

[Wally Francis]

No quite the opposite, I see the Ebay prices then take no f*cking notice of them, how is that being contradictory?

You also mention Manships site and prices in your listing.And you don't have to swear,have you a problem with using the English vocabulary.

[Pete S]

You also mention Manships site and prices in your listing.And you don't have to swear,have you a problem with using the English vocabulary.

No just a problem with smartarses like yourself trying to make themselves look clever at my expense

[Wally Francis]

It's Medication time i think.

[Pete S]

It's Medication time i think.

That's very, very strange you should say that, I've got to see the doctor at 3.15 today for this constant pain in my head, no joke.

[Pete S]

..and see if they can do anything about the Tourettes

[Wally Francis]

You see that's the Romany in me,i can forsee thing's,Now quick grab your coat.

[Ernie Andrews]

Sorry cannot see how the carol woods could be worth£100.00 - Its not very good IMO lots of offbeats 1 There are loads of rare solid soul dancers out there worth alot less so I suppose you must be using John manships as a guide or you would offer it a over half what you are asking or even less. I dont want it but I thought the discussion around manships guide is a dead duck so how you can ask £50 less than manship and think thats the real value of this record I just understand it! Its what someone is prepared to pay

Why dont you do a poll and ask people to genuinely say what they might offer for it.

Based on hearing only the a side I would say no more that £60.00 and thats justa subjective figure of what I would be prepared to pay for it.!

Here's a real example of this- Just agreed a price about the Soul exotics on Terri - manship price £250.00 I offered £50 and it was accepted because its not very popular but a good soul record. who know the soul exotics might go massive and it gets to be worth alot more or it will be consigned to the also rans box and be worth only what I paid for it!

Edited March 8, 2007 by Ernie Andrews

[Guest uroffal]

Sorry cannot see how the carol woods could be worth£100.00 - Its not very good IMO lots of offbeats 1 There are loads of rare solid soul dancers out there worth alot less so I suppose you must be using John manships as a guide or you would offer it a over half what you are asking or even less. I dont want it but I thought the discussion around manships guide is a dead duck so how you can ask £50 less than manship and think thats the real value of this record I just understand it! Its what someone is preparare to pay

Why dont you do apoll and as people to genuinely say what they might offer for it.

Based on hearing only the a side I would say no more that £60.00 and thats justa subjective figure of what I would be prepared to pay for it.!

Heres a real example of this- Just agreed aprice about the Soul exotics on Terri - manship price £250.00 I offered £50 and it was accepted because its not very popular but a good soul record.

Well that's your opinion on the record and that is fine, I think there are plenty of people that would disagree with you. If all records were valued according to whether they were good or not (subjective) then certain £1000 plus records would be tuppence wouldn't they?

As I've said I am factoring in a number of things when pricing that record: what I paid for it; what John (and other dealers) are charging for it; it's condition; what I think it's worth based on the quality and rarity, which is why some are way below the guide price because I don't think they are good enough or rare enough to command those prices. Let's face it if I'd have said I wanted £500 or £600 for Carol Woods you'd all have said well John Manship values it at £400 - so again I'd be wrong wouldn't I?

I have sold records on here in the past by asking for offers, but feel that this can inflate the price even further and even then Pete will say - as he did on thread recently - that people shouldn't be auctioning records that aren't rare. So, I can't really win can I?

[Paul-s]

At the end of the day it's the customer who decides the sales value of the records, not whether someone compiles a price guide or whether someone quotes it.

VERY TRUE!!

[Pomonkey]

Going back a few decades to Economics 101 the very 1st lesson the professor asked a simple question: what's something worth. Eveyone's initial answer: err, the price. But that's because all we were thinking of were generic goods that you could walk into a store and simply see what they were selling for, or even better, 2 stores and compare. A lot of records are like this, ie the common ones that are in stock with most sellers, but the ones we're on this board for are a very different matter. So again, what's sometihng worth. Traditionally there's a few choices:

1. What you paid for it. 2. How much it would cost to replace it 3. How much you WOULD pay for it. In turn:

1. What you paid for it. Hmm, well whatever it was was a fact at the time, but the longer ago that was the less likely this is to be accurate, if I bought Gene Toones in a soul pack in 82 then lucky me but has no relevance for today. Also the reason why the various Guides are only partially useful, even if were accurate when published - which agree they're not in a lot of cases - then every day that goes by they become less so. Not saying they're not useful, just that they have limitations to keep in mind.

2. How much it would cost you to replace it - this isn't so easy to assess, closest way to approximate is just to look at recent sales - hence the usefulness of popsike / history on ebay or auctions - and see what it's been selling for recently. Biggest flaw in this is that the same record in same condition can sell a week apart for a vastly different price so go figure.

3. How much you WOULD pay for it - ah, here's our part really. One man's pride and joy is the next's piece of modern cack. This is why auctions/ebay usually make more sense for sellers - if I price something at $50 and you and a couple of others think that's a bargain, then I've missed out on getting more from you for it by you bidding it up, well as long as ebay/paypal etc don't eat the difference.

4. Thought of a 4th one - how much you would SELL it for - regardless of books, guides, opinion, god knows there's a lot of records to unload cheap I'm glad to take the money for!!

What Pete and all are really doing in their own way is taking their view on each of the above and then making their own assessment, but bottom line is if you really want something for yourself why apologise for paying more than the person next to you would?

On which subject I really like the Herbert Hunter and will take it if it's still available Uroffal, thanks, Michael

[Andyf]

Sorry cannot see how the carol woods could be worth£100.00 - Its not very good IMO lots of offbeats 1 There are loads of rare solid soul dancers out there worth alot less so I suppose you must be using John manships as a guide or you would offer it a over half what you are asking or even less. I dont want it but I thought the discussion around manships guide is a dead duck so how you can ask £50 less than manship and think thats the real value of this record I just understand it! Its what someone is prepared to pay

Why dont you do a poll and ask people to genuinely say what they might offer for it.

Based on hearing only the a side I would say no more that £60.00 and thats justa subjective figure of what I would be prepared to pay for it.!

Here's a real example of this- Just agreed a price about the Soul exotics on Terri - manship price £250.00 I offered £50 and it was accepted because its not very popular but a good soul record. who know the soul exotics might go massive and it gets to be worth alot more or it will be consigned to the also rans box and be worth only what I paid for it!

Well that's your opinion on the record and that is fine, I think there are plenty of people that would disagree with you.

Me for one

However I'm beginning to question how rare it actually is, because it seems to be popping up on lists fairly regularly these days. Still think it's class though

[Guest]

No offence intended, honestly.

Why is it when someone says "no offense intended", it always follows an offensive remark.

No offence, Pete.

Edited March 8, 2007 by recordwanted

[Guest uroffal]

On which subject I really like the Herbert Hunter and will take it if it's still available Uroffal, thanks, Michael

Hi Michael,

I'm afraid it's sold, just need to confirm with the first person to offer that they are still interested after Pete's comments.

[Quinvy]

What would you do without the aid of Manship's book or website?

I personally don't think it's on making comments about peoples sales. If you're not interested, then no one is forcing you to buy. If you have a problem with the post, just PM the seller. Last time I put some sales on here I got people making snide remarks, and in my opinion, spoiling my chances of selling anything.

I'll think twice before using these pages for sales again.

[Guest Spinning Vinyl]

Well I think some of the points made on someones sales thread is bang out of order! Start up another thread in another section if your not happy!

Sometimes if you dont have anything positive to say best keep quiet and take it on a PM

Good luck selling your items uroffal

[Guest uroffal]

I personally don't think it's on making comments about peoples sales. If you're not interested, then no one is forcing you to buy. If you have a problem with the post, just PM the seller. Last time I put some sales on here I got people making snide remarks, and in my opinion, spoiling my chances of selling anything.

I'll think twice before using these pages for sales again.

absolutely

[Pete S]

I said on another thread I'd rather this had been taken elsewhere but I'm not the only person posting on it and others have said a lot harsher things than I did, which was, just to re-iterate, simply about over use of price guides.

[Guest uroffal]

UPDATE:

Maximilian now SOLD

Herbert Hunter now SOLD

Pete, for your information I could have sold this record 5 times over at this price. I had two offers from the States and let's face it if they can't find copies then there's not much hope of you finding one, but if you do I'll take it off your hands for £50. Had I listed this on ebay then chances are it'd have made a lot more tha nthe £200 book value IMO given the number of offers.

[Pete S]

Hi Michael,

I'm afraid it's sold, just need to confirm with the first person to offer that they are still interested after Pete's comments.

Oh for goodness sake...

[Guest uroffal]

I said on another thread I'd rather this had been taken elsewhere but I'm not the only person posting on it and others have said a lot harsher things than I did, which was, just to re-iterate, simply about over use of price guides.

Sorry, who said harsher things than you did? You did not simply complain about the overuse of price guides though did you? You also claimed that one of the records was completely overpriced despite the fact that you don't really know it or it's value (see above post and the number of times I could've sold it).

I would like to personally thank all the people who have written to me today by PM and email (and there have been many) and on this thread in support of the prices and their amazement that someone would make such comments on someone's sales thread.

No offence Pete, but you do this time and time again - you did it yesterday to a well-known US dealer for 'using popsike' as a guide. Perhaps you could tell us who appointed you the font of all knowledge and the Soul-Source guardian of the use of Guide Prices, Popsike or Ebay?

I was quite happy to discuss the topic as part of the thread, until you decided to point directly at one of the items for sale. Then to add insult to injury you used similar methods when promoting your sales in another thread, which you do regularly. I've now seen that you do this consistently on people's sales threads and it comes across as arrogant and hypocritical.

Tell you what, next time I want to sell something I'll ask you what I should charge then I can quote Pete Smith's Guide Price to help promote sales!

[Guest uroffal]

Oh for goodness sake...

Oh for goodness sake what?

What is that supposed to mean?

I'm merely explaining to a potential customer that the person who made me an offer yesterday might not still want the record and I'd have happily let out of the deal if that was the case - in actual fact they are quite happy to go through with the purchase as would 5 other people.

Perhaps you should try some customer service sometime instead of just complaining about what other people do or say.

[Pete S]

Oh for goodness sake what?

What is that supposed to mean?

I'm merely explaining to a potential customer that the person who made me an offer yesterday might not still want the record and I'd have happily let out of the deal if that was the case - in actual fact they are quite happy to go through with the purchase as would 5 other people.

Perhaps you should try some customer service sometime instead of just complaining about what other people do or say.

You instigated the debate, not me. You priced the records, not me. You've got 5 people saying they want it yet you say "in spite of Petes comments". Looks more like a case of because of, not in spite of.

And my customer service is second to none, you try and prove otherwise.

I'm sorry this all went off on your post, if you want to take it further by all means PM me