Dave Godin cover ups at Twisted Wheel in B & S

[Eddie Hubbard]

Does anyone have a copy of the B & S article where Dave Godin visits The Twisted Wheel and talks about covering records with white labels whilst on the train journey ? It’s not one of the articles already posted up .Probably circa 1970 .Many thanks .....

[Roburt]

I have all those early B&S up in the loft. 

Would take a while finding the right edition though (& getting up into the loft is no easy task at my age).

Has it not been posted up on here in the past ?

Edited August 28, 2023 by Roburt

[Eddie Hubbard]

2 hours ago, Roburt said:

I have all those early B&S up in the loft. 

Would take a while finding the right edition though (& getting up into the loft is no easy task at my age).

Has it not been posted up on here in the past ?

I’ve been checking here and other places ,but haven’t seen it yet John .I remember reading a friends copy years ago .

[Chalky]

There is this topic, this could be the article Eddie, I haven't read it yet

 

Just reading an interview with Dave and he has this to say about cover ups....

Quote

Also, I was very into demystifying records. For example, if I went somewhere and some DJ had some exclusive cover-up I knew, I would immediately blow the whistle and review it. F*ck it. Because they were putting their own ego above the singer, the composer and everyone else and I couldn’t abide that.

 

https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2018/01/dave-godin-interview

[David Meikle]

I was there that night. January 24th 1970. Earl Van Dyke on the front cover in glorious colour. Edwin live on stage singing classics like “Spinning Wheel”! I can recall meeting most of those mentioned in the images. One who isn’t named is Mike Curtis the guy with the glasses looking to the left across the room. He worked in a durex factory. I met his pal Dave Hall more than 30 years later and he said Mike had no time for these golden days. Sad.

[Mike]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

There is this topic, this could be the article Eddie, I haven't read it yet

 

Just reading an interview with Dave and he has this to say about cover ups....

https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2018/01/dave-godin-interview

there's an ocr version I had posted earlier here, which makes searching easier

no mention of cover-ups, 

 

[Eddie Hubbard]

Thanks Chalky and Mike ,it’s not the articles you’ve posted up ,good as they are .The search goes on , thanks for your help.

[Eddie Hubbard]

52 minutes ago, David Meikle said:

I was there that night. January 24th 1970. Earl Van Dyke on the front cover in glorious colour. Edwin live on stage singing classics like “Spinning Wheel”! I can recall meeting most of those mentioned in the images. One who isn’t named is Mike Curtis the guy with the glasses looking to the left across the room. He worked in a durex factory. I met his pal Dave Hall more than 30 years later and he said Mike had no time for these golden days. Sad.

Thanks David ,must have been fantastic to have actually witnessed those days .Did you realise how special it was at the time ? Many thanks....

[David Meikle]

Eddie

I had become obsessed with Edwin and made the trip from Glasgow on my own to see him live. Worked in the railway then so travel was free. If you have read Keith Rylatt's book you will have read about three pages that I put together for him about my visits to the Wheel. I knew from my first visit how special it was.

The dancing in particular was unforgettable. Seeing the guy with a suitcase full of records. Hearing and seeing Edwin’s Ric-Tic classics for the time first. I was in heaven but on my own. My mates came down several months later.

Up on stage with Edwin on my second visit in February that year singing the chorus to “Time” which had just been released. Wow!

Visiting Ralph’s records near Victoria Station beforehand. Rowntrees Sound in the basement. The Odeon and the Free Trade Hall for live shows eg Soul Together and Booker T.

As I said, I knew it was special from the outset and remember it all like it was yesterday.

PS. I even recall the colour of the shirt Mike Curtis was wearing! Pink checks. Mad!

Thanks

David

 

 

 

[Eddie Hubbard]

1 minute ago, David Meikle said:

Eddie

I had become obsessed with Edwin and made the trip from Glasgow on my own to see him live. Worked in the railway then so travel was free. If you have read Keith Rylatt's book you will have read about three pages that I put together for him about my visits to the Wheel. I knew from my first visit how special it was.

The dancing in particular was unforgettable. Seeing the guy with a suitcase full of records. Hearing and seeing Edwin’s Ric-Tic classics for the time first. I was in heaven but on my own. My mates came down several months later.

Up on stage with Edwin on my second visit in February that year singing the chorus to “Time” which had just been released. Wow!

Visiting Ralph’s records near Victoria Station beforehand. Rowntrees Sound in the basement. The Odeon and the Free Trade Hall for live shows eg Soul Together and Booker T.

As I said, I knew it was special from the outset and remember it all like it was yesterday.

PS. I even recall the colour of the shirt Mike Curtis was wearing! Pink checks. Mad!

Thanks

David

 

 

 

Fantastic recollections David ,yes I’ve got Keith’s book ,I must re read your stories in it .Thanks for sharing your memories ,an inspiring read .

[Roburt]

Eddie, MY first trip to the Wheel was on 14th October 67 to see Junior Walker (as detailed in an old article I had written that was used in the IN CROWD book). It was a great club & I had many fantastic nights there, but back in Oct 67 I was mourning the loss of the King Mojo, so it was 2nd best for me (though it would prove a bit better than the Nite Owl in the fullness of time).

Mind you, I can't have been overly impressed that night, as the next 5 Saturdays, I was back at the Nite Owl (to see Alan Bown Set, then Isley Brothers (really Sam, Erv & Tom aka the Diplomats), next came the Drifters (The Invitations really I guess), Max Baer & Chicago Setback before lastly seeing Jimmy James & Vagabonds live. I didn't return to the Wheel till 25th November to see Ben E King backed by the Senate. By then, many of my mates were going to the Wheel (the Kidderminster, Scunthorpe & Nottingham crowds), so we went there from then (though it may have been more that the Nite Owl was closed down after the 2nd Dec niter).

Edited August 30, 2023 by Roburt

[Torch56]

I do recall reading a Dave Godin B&S column from 71/2 where he admitted covering up records, and justified the practice, which makes his railing against the practice, as quoted earlier in this thread, somewhat inconsistent.
Two records I distinctly remember him referring to as personal former 'secret sounds' were James Bounty, Prove Yourself a Lady, and the Ad-Libs, Nothing's Worse Than Being Alone.

[Eddie Hubbard]

1 hour ago, Torch56 said:

I do recall reading a Dave Godin B&S column from 71/2 where he admitted covering up records, and justified the practice, which makes his railing against the practice, as quoted earlier in this thread, somewhat inconsistent.
Two records I distinctly remember him referring to as personal former 'secret sounds' were James Bounty, Prove Yourself a Lady, and the Ad-Libs, Nothing's Worse Than Being Alone.

Yes I thought that too ,one of the other “ secret sounds “ was Tommy Sears - Get Out ,which compared to the other 2 ,is still under the radar .

[Chalky]

6 hours ago, Torch56 said:

I do recall reading a Dave Godin B&S column from 71/2 where he admitted covering up records, and justified the practice, which makes his railing against the practice, as quoted earlier in this thread, somewhat inconsistent.
Two records I distinctly remember him referring to as personal former 'secret sounds' were James Bounty, Prove Yourself a Lady, and the Ad-Libs, Nothing's Worse Than Being Alone.

He mentions the Adlibs in the interview I posted the link to....

Quote

I remember I got a white-label copy of a record sent me by Van McCoy himself of a record by the Ad Libs. It hadn’t even been issued in America. I was going to Wigan Casino on the Saturday after it had arrived on the Friday. It was an absolute stunner northern soul tune. “Nothing Worse Than Being Alone,” it was called. 

I said to myself, “Oh wow, Van, great,” here’s something I can take up with me, so I took it up. It cleared the floor. And the DJ took it off halfway through. He gave it back to me. He didn’t actually say it, but I could read his face: “Ooh, you’ve fallen flat on you face with that one.” I was so angry. “You know in a year’s time you’ll be fucking begging me for a copy of this.” Sure enough, it becomes one of the biggest northern soul records. 

Who was the DJ?

I think it would be unfair to name him.

 

[Owd Codger]

Can somebody post the date of Godin's Wheel visit, and the date of B&S 50 please.?

[Owd Codger]

Found the issue date..January 1971, which was a couple of weeks before closure.

His visit was probably late 1970. That ties in with my memory of going there, but I'm not aware if he was there when I was . I probably would not have known if was the case 

[David Meikle]

My recollections are getting weaker by the minute.The date could be 21st Feb or 21st March. If any one knows……

 

 

 

 

 

[Julianb]

24 minutes ago, Owd Codger said:

Found the issue date..January 1971, which was a couple of weeks before closure.

His visit was probably late 1970. That ties in with my memory of going there, but I'm not aware if he was there when I was . I probably would not have known if was the case 

It was the 12th December 1970. Dave sent me a postcard dated 9th December stating this. Both sides of my postcard are printed in Rob McKeever's book ' Whitworth Street, Manchester. I still have it , so could do scans if required.

[Owd Codger]

Julianb

That makes sense, as the column refers to possible closure. So 12 December  1970 visit, closure late January 1971.

I remember getting my B&S no. 50 and I recognised some of the people in the photos.

Thank you

 

[Kenb]

the 'covering-up' with white (paper discs) labels was retold in 'Dave Godin- a Northern Soul' by Stephen Stevlor (author) as...'a train journey trip in 1971 to visit the Pendulum & Cromwellian'. It goes on 'his clubbing adventure was covered in the next available B&S'.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Kenb

[Eddie Hubbard]

24 minutes ago, Kenb said:

the 'covering-up' with white (paper discs) labels was retold in 'Dave Godin- a Northern Soul' by Stephen Stevlor (author) as...'a train journey trip in 1971 to visit the Pendulum & Cromwellian'. It goes on 'his clubbing adventure was covered in the next available B&S'.

That’s sounds like the one ,are you able to scan it ? Many thanks 

[Kenb]

12 hours ago, Eddie Hubbard said:

That’s sounds like the one ,are you able to scan it ? Many thanks 

It's (the book) under copyright protection...but it is page 172. As for the B&S issue, i don't have it.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Kenb

[Eddie Hubbard]

2 hours ago, Kenb said:

It's (the book) under copyright protection...but it is page 172. As for the B&S issue, i don't have it.

Ok,no worries .I think I’ll buy the book anyway .

[Chalky]

36 minutes ago, Eddie Hubbard said:

Ok,no worries .I think I’ll buy the book anyway .

Have sent you the relevant page Eddie

[Kesalocasoul]

Here are DG's comments on "Secret Sounds" and two reveals, printed in B&S #74 (Dec 1971).  He promised more in subsequent issues, but I haven't found them, yet.

[Eddie Hubbard]

19 hours ago, Chalky said:

Have sent you the relevant page Eddie

Many thanks Chalky ,that’s great 

12 hours ago, Kesalocasoul said:

Here are DG's comments on "Secret Sounds" and two reveals, printed in B&S #74 (Dec 1971).  He promised more in subsequent issues, but I haven't found them, yet.

That’s great to see ,many thanks for your help 

[Eddie Hubbard]

On 29/08/2023 at 09:18, Roburt said:

Eddie, MY first trip to the Wheel was on 14th October 67 to see Junior Walker (as detailed in an old article I had written that was used in the IN CROWD book). It was a great club & I had many fantastic nights there, but back in Oct 67 I was mourning the loss of the King Mojo, so it was 2nd best for me (though it would prove a bit better than the Nite Owl in the fullness of time).

Mind you, I can't have been overly impressed that night, as the next 5 Saturdays, I was back at the Nite Owl (to see Alan Bown Set, then Isley Brothers (really Sam, Erv & Tom aka the Diplomats), next came the Drifters (The Invitations really I guess), Max Baer & Chicago Setback before lastly seeing Jimmy James & Vagabonds live. I didn't return to the Wheel till 25th November to see Ben E King backed by the Senate. By then, many of my mates were going to the Wheel (the Kidderminster, Scunthorpe & Nottingham crowds), so we went there from then (though it may have been more that the Nite Owl was closed down after the 2nd Dec niter).

Thanks John ,some really interesting memories there .Did you mention to The Diplomats / Skull Snaps about seeing them ,when we saw them at Cleethorpes? 

[Solidsoul]

So it might only have been once, but James Bounty's Northern classic "Prove Yourself A Lady"was played by Dave Godin, way back in the Twisted Wheel!

Edited August 31, 2023 by Solidsoul

[Torch56]

Difficult to comprehend how a record as powerful as James Bounty remained under the radar after being played at the Wheel back in 1970. By late '72 it was holding its own on playlists featuring anthemic items like Eddie Parker and Earl Jackson.

Another point of interest for me from the Dave Godin article was his recommendation to purchase a copy of Joe Wilson's 'Sweetness' then available in record stores. The same advice was offered to me at the Catacombs around the same time by Alan S, then the main DJ at the venue. Needless to say, this wasn't ignored and I duly acted within the week, despite my own lukewarm reaction to the record, which remains with me to the present day. 

[Roburt]

2 hours ago, Eddie Hubbard said:

Thanks John ,some really interesting memories there .Did you mention to The Diplomats / Skull Snaps about seeing them ,when we saw them at Cleethorpes? 

I did Eddie (though only 1 or 2 of the guys at Cleggy were either Sam, Erv or Tom  -- Sam Culley was deffo @ Cleggy). I told him I'd seen them & he seemed embarrassed. He said they turned up at a UK club one night & saw that the Isley Brothers were the live act according to posters outside. GREAT, he said, WE'RE FRIENDS WITH THOSE GUYS ... imagine his surprise when told they were the Isley Bros.

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Roburt

[Torch56]

[Roburt]

That Joe Wilson 45 was the 1st time I'd seen any release from Malaco.

 

[Roburt]

3 hours ago, Solidsoul said:

So if might only have been the once, but James Bounty's Northern classic "Prove Yourself A Lady"was played by Dave Godin, way back in the Twisted Wheel! 

Don't forget there was no internet, very little UK knowledge of small US indie soul labels, no knowledge at all of James Bounty or the record label back then. PYaL was James 1st release & Compass (though it had been in existence since early 67) hadn't yet gained a UK outlet when James' 45 was released. That was remedied when Helena Ferguson's "Where Is The Party" escaped here late in 67. I bought a UK copy of HF's London release but it didn't set me off on a quest to track down other releases on the label. I guess if I'd have seen a Compass 45 on a UK dealers auction mailing list back then, I'd have bid low on it (as was my policy back in the late 60's / early 70's on blind bids on unknown soul stuff).

We were 'young & dumb' back then, had little spare cash & didn't even have the knowledge or cash to buy BILLBOARD mag to scan their entries on soul release. If we had, we'd have seen PYaL listed as a new 45 release (3/7/67) and then James getting a mention in a piece about Compass Records (about them picking up the Helena F 45 for release  -- 29/7/67).. James 45 sold in small amounts & so 3 years later the 45 would have been included on record warehouse lists for a few  cents a copy ... BUT we wouldn't have known to add it to our orders.

No doubt a few copies were in the UK by 69/70/71 but I guess the guys that had them weren't Wheel goers & therefore not able to say on the night ... I KNOW WHAT THIS IS,  IT'S ....

PLUS there's a big difference in what sounds were appreciated at the Wheel and what would become big at the Casino (though I'm sure JB's 45 would have gone big if it's ID had been known instantly & numerous copies were therefore imported into the UK back then). . . . AN INSTANCE OF THIS ... I loved the Sapphires "Gotta Have Your Love" from it's HMV release and loved much soul released on ABC in the States. An auction list arrived with a different Sapphires 45 on it (another ABC release). I bid 2/11 or a similar sum & won it. I had no idea what I'd bought, it arrived, I played it and didn't like it. The lyrics were crap, banal & senseless (by 69/70, dance lyric songs were out of favour as old hat). So it went in my 'rejects box" and I sold it to a guy at college around 12 months later (at a profit). THUS I had dumped an early copy of "Slow Fizz" that had made it to the UK. Never regretted the fact either (though I did wish I'd kept it till it was a big sound & I could have got a lot more for my copy).    

Edited August 31, 2023 by Roburt

[Owd Codger]

I quite like " The slow fizz". 

 

[Torch56]

Fascinating Slow Fizz story, Roburt. Thanks for that.

Up the Junction regulars were telling me about 'Slow Fizz' as being played by Alan Day in the summer of 1972. I didn't register hearing it until September when the Catacombs reopened and he had been added to the DJ roster. It remained on playlists through to the early summer of 1973, testimony to its dance floor impact and limited access to copies. By the time the UK Probe release came along its place in the sun had come and gone.

Oddly enough, I too registered a comparison between both Sapphires' releases but arrived at the opposite conclusion. Blue Max had a HMV copy of Gotta Have Your Love which he played at the Connaught Hotel back in '71 but to my ears it sounded a bit too twee, whereas Slow Fizz, despite simplistic lyrics, was a powerhouse of a sound that hit the right receptors as far as I was concerned.

Maybe, beyond personal preference, this illustrates the difference in the types of sound that were appreciated at the Wheel and those that followed thereafter, that you referred to.

[Roburt]

2 hours ago, Torch56 said:

Fascinating Slow Fizz story, Roburt. Thanks for that.

Up the Junction regulars were telling me about 'Slow Fizz' as being played by Alan Day in the summer of 1972. I didn't register hearing it until September when the Catacombs reopened and he had been added to the DJ roster. It remained on playlists through to the early summer of 1973, testimony to its dance floor impact and limited access to copies. By the time the UK Probe release came along its place in the sun had come and gone.

Oddly enough, I too registered a comparison between both Sapphires' releases but arrived at the opposite conclusion. Blue Max had a HMV copy of Gotta Have Your Love which he played at the Connaught Hotel back in '71 but to my ears it sounded a bit too twee, whereas Slow Fizz, despite simplistic lyrics, was a powerhouse of a sound that hit the right receptors as far as I was concerned.

Maybe, beyond personal preference, this illustrates the difference in the types of sound that were appreciated at the Wheel and those that followed thereafter, that you referred to.

I don't dispute your opinion on SLOW FIZZ. Needless to say, I never heard it played at a niter / soul club in the time I owned the 45. If I had, then the beat may have outweighed my dislike for it's lyrics. I wasn't a Casino goer & lots of what got played there did little for me, so maybe I would still have had a low opinion of the track. I never liked many 100 mph stompers, being in my mid twenties by the time Wigan sounds went big. PLUS I was always a massive deep soul fan & always preferred tracks where the tempo wasn't too fast to allow the singer to inject feeling / passion into their delivery.    

Also, I was always a 100% collector. I did DJ occasionally but never really bought anything specifically to DJ with. I was buying from the likes of Randys Rec Shop & Ray Averys in the US in the 60's (+ from F L Moores from when he started up in Leighton Buzzard), so got a few import only biggies 'ahead of the curve' at decent prices (Kittens on Chess, Invitations, Art Freeman, Fuller Bros, etc.) but I'd gotten lucky with lots of those coz mates put me on to them early on.     

Edited August 31, 2023 by Roburt

[Torch56]

I must admit to a leaning towards the fast and furious when it comes to soul music and the type of sound that dominated playlists in the post-Wheel, pre-Wigan period, which was my era, suited my taste.

Roger Eagle in The Strange World of Northern Soul commented that the pace of records was more varied in the earlier days of the Wheel, and slower sounds featured at Stafford in the eighties so over the entire period the pace hasn't always veered to the frenetic.

Where things went badly wrong was when pace and beat became the main criterion for featuring on playlists and the 'soul' bit of northern soul was relegated to an afterthought.

[Twoshoes]

6 hours ago, Torch56 said:

Another point of interest for me from the Dave Godin article was his recommendation to purchase a copy of Joe Wilson's 'Sweetness' then available in record stores. The same advice was offered to me at the Catacombs around the same time by Alan S, then the main DJ at the venue. Needless to say, this wasn't ignored and I duly acted within the week, despite my own lukewarm reaction to the record, which remains with me to the present day. 

Same here, gets a play every now and then

[Eddie Hubbard]

6 hours ago, Roburt said:

That Joe Wilson 45 was the 1st time I'd seen any release from Malaco.

 

I bought that at Wigan on the strength of that B & S review .The magazine was a friends ,as I didn’t start buying it until ‘72,

[Torch56]

The best thing about the Joe Wilson single is the label. In the seventies record companies competed with each other to produce the gaudiest designs and range of colours far removed from the understated simple lines of their 60s product. Pye were by no means the worst when it came to this crime against style but by 1973 the die was cast.

[Rick Cooper]

8 hours ago, Torch56 said:

Difficult to comprehend how a record as powerful as James Bounty remained under the radar after being played at the Wheel back in 1970. By late '72 it was holding its own on playlists featuring anthemic items like Eddie Parker and Earl Jackson.

Another point of interest for me from the Dave Godin article was his recommendation to purchase a copy of Joe Wilson's 'Sweetness' then available in record stores. The same advice was offered to me at the Catacombs around the same time by Alan S, then the main DJ at the venue. Needless to say, this wasn't ignored and I duly acted within the week, despite my own lukewarm reaction to the record, which remains with me to the present day. 

The flip of Sweetness is a great Deep Soul track which probably swayed Dave Godin's appreciation. It didn't make one of his Deep Soul Treasures CDs but was title and lead track for a Kent CD - When a Man Cries.

Dave came up to Manchester after The Wheel closed to visit the Pendulum club (at it's first location) but I'm fairly sure didn't bring any records, covered up or not, for the DJ to play

 

[Roburt]

Going back to PROVE YOURSELF A LADY ... this is the only mention the 45 got in Billboard mag (early June 67).

... the 45 was in a listing of new 45 releases ... but in the pop section, not in the R&B section ... GO FIGURE ... 

other 45 releases that week (competing for your $ / £) ... Arthur Conley, Darrell Banks, Exciters, Fabulous Pack (Harlem Shuffle), Terry Knight (who was employing Lou Ragland to back him, after he'd sacked the Fab Pack), Ben E King, Major Lance, Billy Butler, James Brown, Emperors, Spinners, Bobby Wells, Billy Harner, Checkmates Ltd, Willie Hightower, Peoples Choice, Inspirations (all listed in the pop section) + the 7 x 45's reviewed in the actual R&B section ...

If anyone had picked up on James Bounty's 45 from that, they were a lot better man than I was ... 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Roburt

[Torch56]

Great research.

Now, the artists and titles leap out at you but back then they would have been just words on a page.

[Mush]

October 9th 1967 I was 5, how young do I feel, Went out with a manc, been to Brazennose Street and saw the site where the club stood, xmas 2015, ended up in in a pub called The Wight Horse, so rammed, Northern Soul playing all night, you didn't have to dance because you were shoulder to shoulder, one person moved, the whole pub moved, fantastic night, will remember it forever.

[Eddie Hubbard]

On 31/08/2023 at 19:50, Rick Cooper said:

The flip of Sweetness is a great Deep Soul track which probably swayed Dave Godin's appreciation. It didn't make one of his Deep Soul Treasures CDs but was title and lead track for a Kent CD - When a Man Cries.

Dave came up to Manchester after The Wheel closed to visit the Pendulum club (at it's first location) but I'm fairly sure didn't bring any records, covered up or not, for the DJ to play

 

Yes fantastic Rick ,a great double header