Steve Mancha 'did my baby call' alt. take question

[Tlscapital]

This here first is the take that came on the 'The Essential Detroit Soul Collection' on Goldmine compilation that I got to get use to home when that compilation came out. Where Steve Mancha's singing is 'grittier' in comparison with the clip below that is the cut I heard lifted from the actual 45.

Begging the question was this 'grittier' cut ever released on Wheelsville or not ? Are there some 'mispressings' out there featuring this mix ? I know that Goldmine did get a lot of those Groovesville reels at one time. Possibly making this 'previously' unreleased take it's first release on vinyl (then CD)...

 

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Tlscapital

[Solidsoul]

Slightly different lyrics as well. Goldmine put lots of alt takes on there cd's

It could be like Steve Mancha's great "Deeper In Love" on a Goldmine CD that is so much better than J.J. Barnes Ric Tic version. No disrespect to J.J. intended!

Edited August 16, 2023 by Solidsoul

[Tagtag]

I always thought that the version on the Essential Detroit CD was from the flipside of The Professionals on Groove City.

That version was presumed to actually be Steve Mancha but a different take to the Wheelsville 45.

[Tlscapital]

17 minutes ago, Tagtag said:

I always thought that the version on the Essential Detroit CD was from the flipside of The Professionals on Groove City.

That version was presumed to actually be Steve Mancha but a different take to the Wheelsville 45.

Allright. That's it  Had to dig some as sometimes the sound clips don't fit the record presented on YT but managed that. Top Notch. Thanks

Edited August 16, 2023 by Tlscapital

[Chalky]

2 hours ago, Tagtag said:

I always thought that the version on the Essential Detroit CD was from the flipside of The Professionals on Groove City.

That version was presumed to actually be Steve Mancha but a different take to the Wheelsville 45.

No presumption about it, it is Mancha. 

[Robbk]

5 hours ago, Tagtag said:

I always thought that the version on the Essential Detroit CD was from the flipside of The Professionals on Groove City.

That version was presumed to actually be Steve Mancha but a different take to the Wheelsville 45.

I always wondered if Steve Mancha was one of 2 lead singers for The Professionals.  They both were artist/groups in the Don Davis stable, and that group wasn't together very long at all.  I think I do remember seeing a  venue poster for an appearance in Detroit, however.  So, I assume they weren't just a studio group for Davis to release 2 different records on Mancha at the same time.

[Tlscapital]

FWIW the Professionals according to the Datcogs entry were consisting of a Regge Green, a Fred (Fast Freddie) Anderson, a Steve Calloway and a Nance (Swiggle) Connor.

No mention of a Steve Mancha. As opposed to what I've always read here and there. So what are the sources of 'bargainvinyl1' on his Datcogs entry for that line-up ?

Or the same for Steve Mancha's involvement  theory... ? What are the sources ? With this picture on Datcogs showing 3 guys posing and not 4 ! Anyone with any fuel on this ?

[Mgm 1251]

There is also this boot(with Paris,Sleepless Nights on flip side)that is also another/different mix

[Benji]

1 hour ago, Robbk said:

I always wondered if Steve Mancha was one of 2 lead singers for The Professionals.  They both were artist/groups in the Don Davis stable, and that group wasn't together very long at all.  I think I do remember seeing a  venue poster for an appearance in Detroit, however.  So, I assume they weren't just a studio group for Davis to release 2 different records on Mancha at the same time.

You may have a point here. But I just played a few Steve Mancha tracks and the a-side of the Professionals on Youtube. I can hear only one lead singer on the Professionals track. And he sure doesn't sound like Steve Mancha. Steve Mancha sings in a lower key in his other songs. It might be him on the Professionals, there are some similarities. But if it was he's not singing in a key that's fitting him if you know what I mean.

[Chalky]

5 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

FWIW the Professionals according to the Datcogs entry were consisting of a Regge Green, a Fred (Fast Freddie) Anderson, a Steve Calloway and a Nance (Swiggle) Connor.

No mention of a Steve Mancha. As opposed to what I've always read here and there. So what are the sources of 'bargainvinyl1' on his Datcogs entry for that line-up ?

Or the same for Steve Mancha's involvement  theory... ? What are the sources ? With this picture on Datcogs showing 3 guys posing and not 4 ! Anyone with any fuel on this ?

The Professionals only had the one track so a Steve Mancha track was used in the flip. That’s from Calloway himself as well. I thought this was well known?

[Hitsville Chalky]

5 hours ago, Chalky said:

The Professionals only had the one track so a Steve Mancha track was used in the flip. That’s from Calloway himself as well. I thought this was well known?

Thats correct  ...when i first interviewed Steve he stated the b side was deffo Mancha and the group never recorded did my baby call  , i have the video interview on a old cam record video i will try and convert it  

11 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

FWIW the Professionals according to the Datcogs entry were consisting of a Regge Green, a Fred (Fast Freddie) Anderson, a Steve Calloway and a Nance (Swiggle) Connor.

No mention of a Steve Mancha. As opposed to what I've always read here and there. So what are the sources of 'bargainvinyl1' on his Datcogs entry for that line-up ?

Or the same for Steve Mancha's involvement  theory... ? What are the sources ? With this picture on Datcogs showing 3 guys posing and not 4 ! Anyone with any fuel on this ?

 Steve Mancha was never in the group as you stated 

[Tlscapital]

50 minutes ago, Hitsville Chalky said:

Thats correct  ...when i first interviewed Steve he stated the b side was deffo Mancha and the group never recorded did my baby call  , i have the video interview on a old cam record video i will try and convert it  

 Steve Mancha was never in the group as you stated 

OK, so it's actually the Professionals 'that's why I love you' that got flanked with Steve Mancha's previously unissued alternate take (likely without no other materials of their own). Top Notch informations 'closing' this mystery quest.

[Tlscapital]

13 hours ago, Mgm 1251 said:

There is also this boot(with Paris,Sleepless Nights on flip side)that is also another/different mix

That is a 'dub' of the 2011 edition of Joey Kingfish on SonicWax (which sounds better than that boot FWIW).

[Tlscapital]

On 17/08/2023 at 00:31, Benji said:

You may have a point here. But I just played a few Steve Mancha tracks and the a-side of the Professionals on Youtube. I can hear only one lead singer on the Professionals track. And he sure doesn't sound like Steve Mancha. Steve Mancha sings in a lower key in his other songs. It might be him on the Professionals, there are some similarities. But if it was he's not singing in a key that's fitting him if you know what I mean.

So Steve Mancha was not in the Professionals 'that's why I love you' session. And the Professionals never recorded 'did my baby call'. So either someone else yet to figure out (or never) who is singing this version on the 'B' side of 'that's why I love you' or...

Or was it a Steve Mancha trying to push his voice for something else... Like with a 'groan' tone that Steve Mancha started to get more and more by 1967 and 1968. That we can hear on some later tunes like 'I won't love you and leave you' or 'just keep on loving me'...  

Edited August 18, 2023 by Tlscapital

[Robbk]

On 17/08/2023 at 01:40, Hitsville Chalky said:

Thats correct  ...when i first interviewed Steve he stated the b side was deffo Mancha and the group never recorded did my baby call  , i have the video interview on a old cam record video i will try and convert it  

 Steve Mancha was never in the group as you stated 

Thanks for clearing that up for good.  I had heard that The Professionals had only recorded one song, so the Steve Mancha cut was thrown onto its flip.  But that it was confirmed at that time.  I also never heard the confirmation that Mancha had never been a member of The Professionals. 

There was a back-up group Don Davis used on this version of "Did My Baby Call".  It doesn't seem to be the same take of the back-up track used on the Wheelsville USA track.  Does anyone here know who Davis used as back-up singers on the two recordings?  I assume they were the same exact collection of singers on both, during the same recording session.  I heard one or two females and at least 2 male voices, if not 3. 

I wonder if Melvin Davis was one of them, as he and Steve Mancha were his right-hand-men at mid '60s Groovesville.

And Davis used The Holidays a few times. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Robbk

[Benji]

18 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

That is a 'dub' of the 2011 edition of Joey Kingfish on SonicWax (which sounds better than that boot FWIW).

The Paris/Steve Mancha boot predates this Sonic Wax 45.

[Tlscapital]

9 hours ago, Robbk said:

There was a back-up group Don Davis used on this version of "Did My Baby Call".  It doesn't seem to be the same take of the back-up track used on the Wheelsville USA track.  Does anyone here know who Davis used as back-up singers on the two recordings?  I assume they were the same exact collection of singers on both, during the same recording session.  I heard one or two females and at least 2 male voices, if not 3. 

I wonder if Melvin Davis was one of them, as he and Steve Mancha were his right-hand-men at mid '60s Groovesville.

He used The Holidays a few times. 

The 3 different takes vary in music and singing. FWIW Cody Black 'Mr. Blue' on D-Town released in October 1965 (Steve Mancha 'Did My Baby Call' on Wheelsville was June 1965) used for that session as back-up singers Lilian Dupree, Dee Edwards, Silky Hargreaves and Tom Storm (sourced from Graham Finch fab interview with Cody Black). 

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Benji said:

The Paris/Steve Mancha boot predates this Sonic Wax 45.

Its from around 1990

[Hitsville Chalky]

13 hours ago, Robbk said:

Thanks for clearing that up for good.  I had heard that The Professionals had only recorded one song, so the Steve Mancha cut was thrown onto its flip.  But that it was confirmed at that time.  I also never heard the confirmation that Mancha had never been a member of The Professionals. 

There was a back-up group Don Davis used on this version of "Did My Baby Call".  It doesn't seem to be the same take of the back-up track used on the Wheelsville USA track.  Does anyone here know who Davis used as back-up singers on the two recordings?  I assume they were the same exact collection of singers on both, during the same recording session.  I heard one or two females and at least 2 male voices, if not 3. 

I wonder if Melvin Davis was one of them, as he and Steve Mancha were his right-hand-men at mid '60s Groovesville.

He used The Holidays a few times. 

Thats correct mate ....The Professionals only cut the one track steve calloway stated ..don loved there name so offered them this track to cut which first title was titled  i really love my baby 

[Robbk]

9 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

The 3 different takes vary in music and singing. FWIW Cody Black 'Mr. Blue' on D-Town released in October 1965 (Steve Mancha 'Did My Baby Call' on Wheelsville was June 1965) used for that session as back-up singers Lilian Dupree, Dee Edwards, Silky Hargreaves and Tom Storm (sourced from Graham Finch fab interview with Cody Black). 

All of them were D-Town artists at that time.  And NONE were used by Davis' Groovesville Productions around that time, although Tom Storm and his Peps were some of Davis' favourites and most used BG groups when they worked for him when he had managed and co-owned Thelma Records.  So, THAT tells me that this Don Davis production wasn't a totally, Don Davis Production run totally inside HIS Groovesville shop, recorded at United Sound, and just leased to Mike Hanks' Wheelsville USA.  It was likely Don Davis working inside D-Town/Wheelsville, probably as a joint-venture, with Hanks having at least a little active part, and the recording possibly done in The Pig Pen.  So, the BG group likely was formed using D-Town/Wheelsville singing artists.  The grouping of singers used in the Cody Black session is as good a guess as any to have been used on this one.

[Tlscapital]

5 hours ago, Robbk said:

All of them were D-Town artists at that time.  And NONE were used by Davis' Groovesville Productions around that time, although Tom Storm and his Peps were some of Davis' favourites and most used BG groups when they worked for him when he had managed and co-owned Thelma Records.  So, THAT tells me that this Don Davis production wasn't a totally, Don Davis Production run totally inside HIS Groovesville shop, recorded at United Sound, and just leased to Mike Hanks' Wheelsville USA.  It was likely Don Davis working inside D-Town/Wheelsville, probably as a joint-venture, with Hanks having at least a little active part, and the recording possibly done in The Pig Pen.  So, the BG group likely was formed using D-Town/Wheelsville singing artists.  The grouping of singers used in the Cody Black session is as good a guess as any to have been used on this one.

OK, yes good point. Good and valid clarification in distinction between Mike Hanks and Don Davis productions and collaboration in releasing the gear. Although as you pointed with more than one bridge between them and the people around them. And yes it's only a supposition or proposition in possibility especially for the few girls we know around D-Town or Wheelsville... That line-up of backings were named by Cody Black himself to attest the credibility of the source some more FWIW.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Tlscapital

[G F]

When I interviewed Don Davis, I asked him about the early Wheelsville USA recordings and he told me that he never had any contact/dealings with Mike Hanks. He seemed to be telling the truth - I pointed out the Steve Mancha and Jimmy Gilford recordings. It makes me wonder if the deal was done through Mike's buisness partner, Roger Brown. At the time I didn't think to ask Don about Roger Brown.

The names of the backing singers on 'Mr Blue' were given to me by Cody Black.

[Robbk]

4 hours ago, G F said:

When I interviewed Don Davis, I asked him about the early Wheelsville USA recordings and he told me that he never had any contact/dealings with Mike Hanks. He seemed to be telling the truth - I pointed out the Steve Mancha and Jimmy Gilford recordings. It makes me wonder if the deal was done through Mike's business partner, Roger Brown. At the time I didn't think to ask Don about Roger Brown.

The names of the backing singers on 'Mr Blue' were given to me by Cody Black.

If so, that situation must have occurred when Davis was finished with his working partnership agreement and distribution deal for his new Groovesville Records (2nd incarnation), with Ed Wingate and Golden World/Ric Tic Records, and before he started his new partnership with LeBaron Taylor, in Solid Hitbound Productions, his revived (3rd incarnation of Groovesville Records, and partnership in Revilot and Solid Hitbound Records. 

Sonny Sanders was the arranger, Ronnie Abner was a songwriter on Whirlpool (both co-workers and former partners); and Mancha was also a former Davis affiliate (having recorded for his Golden World-distributed (white Groovesville).  Groovesville and Mah's Music shared the publishing.  Based on what Davis said in his interview, I'm guessing that this may have been Davis' partner, Roger Brown, going to Mike Hanks to make a pressing/distribution deal, because Davis was short of cash, being in between operating his own labels, and they wanted to get both the Mancha and Jimmy Gilford records out quickly.  I'm guessing that Roger Brown was the all-Pro defensive tackle 7-year 1960s player for The Detroit Lions NFL US football team, joining Rosie Grier(NY Giants/L.A. Rams) & Roosevelt Brown(NY Giants), Jim Brown(Cleveland Browns), and the 4 L.A. Rams who also were partners in Soul Music record labels.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Robbk

[G F]

 

I have the release date for 'DMBC' as Feb' 1965 and the first (resurrected) Groovesville 45 - Steve Mancha - as October that year. 

I interviewed Steve and obviously asked about this disc, but he didn't know much about how his recordings were handled... I'll have to listen to my recording on the interview to hear what he had to say.

Yes, that Roger Brown. He was a gentle giant, from what I heard. Another partner at the company was Martha Jean Steinberg - AKA Martha Jean 'The Queen'. She was a popular DJ at local stations WCHB and WJLB. 

 

[Robbk]

47 minutes ago, G F said:

 

I have the release date for 'DMBC' as Feb' 1965 and the first (resurrected) Groovesville 45 - Steve Mancha - as October that year. 

I interviewed Steve and obviously asked about this disc, but he didn't know much about how his recordings were handled... I'll have to listen to my recording on the interview to hear what he had to say.

Yes, that Roger Brown. He was a gentle giant, from what I heard. Another partner at the company was Martha Jean Steinberg - AKA Martha Jean 'The Queen'. She was a popular DJ at local stations WCHB and WJLB. 

 

Yes, Martha Jean was one of the biggest DJs in Detroit.  But, I never knew she was ever a partner in Don Davis' Groovesville records.  Wouldn't that have been  a "conflict of interests", and illegal, by 1965, if she played their records on her radio show???  I do remember lots of DJs owning record labels.  But that was mostly during the 1940s, '50s, and very early '60s, which I think was before the law went into effect (which, I believe was what brought it on). 

Furthermore, I don't remember Martha Jean Steinberg or Roger Brown being involved with Don Davis' and LeBaron Taylor's Solid Hitbound Productions and Revilot and Solid Hitbound Records.  Maybe they just became junior partners in Davis' new Groovesville Records (turquoise label), whose ownership was not shared by Taylor, but only had its distribution handled by Solid Hitbound Productions; while both Revilot and Solid Hitbound Records were each 50% owned by Davis and Taylor.  Or maybe they were just a stop-gap funding and connections source, and Davis broke off his partnership with them before partnering with Taylor? 

And LeBaron Taylor was still a popular Detroit DJ when those labels were operating.  So, I guess it was no problem for Martha Jean to have been a minority owner in Groovesville.  

I guess the payola scandals of the 1950s installed such regularly-formatted rules about how radio station playlists are formed, and such scrutiny on their business income and payroll book records, that DJ record company part-owners had nothing to fear or hide.  Now that I think about it, I could probably name more than 75 DJs who had part or full ownership in record companies between 1945 and 1970.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Robbk

[G F]

 It doesn't seem to have been something the police/Feds were focused on in Detroit. As you know, LeBarron Taylor ran Solid Hitbound and local radio station manager George White was also a partner there. You don't see her name on the record labels.

 Martha Jean called herself 'Premium Stuff' when working in Memphis in the early 60s - hence the label name in Detroit. One of her popular phrases on Detroit's WCHB was 'I bet ya' - which got made into a 45 on Golden World (not that she was involved in that recording). 

 

[Eddie Hubbard]

On 18/08/2023 at 23:15, G F said:

When I interviewed Don Davis, I asked him about the early Wheelsville USA recordings and he told me that he never had any contact/dealings with Mike Hanks. He seemed to be telling the truth - I pointed out the Steve Mancha and Jimmy Gilford recordings. It makes me wonder if the deal was done through Mike's buisness partner, Roger Brown. At the time I didn't think to ask Don about Roger Brown.

The names of the backing singers on 'Mr Blue' were given to me by Cody Black.

Hi Graham ,is the Don Davis interview you did ,posted up anywhere ? I’m sure it would be a very interesting listen .Thanks Eddie 

[G F]

I haven't edited that one yet. Don came over to Windsor, just across the river from Detroit, and we had lunch. The place had some background noise, but hopefully I can dampen that down with the software I have. I plan to get to some of these interviews shortly. 

From memory, I asked about the early days with Johnnie Mae and Daco etc. and he talked quite a bit about living and gigging out of state and playing jazz.

[Eddie Hubbard]

1 hour ago, G F said:

I haven't edited that one yet. Don came over to Windsor, just across the river from Detroit, and we had lunch. The place had some background noise, but hopefully I can dampen that down with the software I have. I plan to get to some of these interviews shortly. 

From memory, I asked about the early days with Johnnie Mae and Daco etc. and he talked quite a bit about living and gigging out of state and playing jazz.

Thanks for the reply Graham ,look forward to the interview when you have time 

[Robbk]

18 hours ago, G F said:

I haven't edited that one yet. Don came over to Windsor, just across the river from Detroit, and we had lunch. The place had some background noise, but hopefully I can dampen that down with the software I have. I plan to get to some of these interviews shortly. 

From memory, I asked about the early days with Johnnie Mae and Daco etc. and he talked quite a bit about living and gigging out of state and playing jazz.

Hi Graham, thanks for providing the information on Don.  I assume his talking about his time outside Detrroit, was mostly about when he and his Jazz combo, the Don Davis Trio, was touring The USA and Canada.  I, too, look forward to hearing the interview.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Robbk

[G F]

I emailed Elsie Baker (Debonaires) and asked her about the song. Here is her reply:

Yes, that’s Pat Lewis, The Debonaires and The Holidays. Diane never sang background with the Debs, however it’s always Pat, Joyce, Elsie, Dot, Tony, Robert and Butch that did the background vocals for Golden World and sometimes without Pat Lewis. Yes, it was recorded at Golden World.