When did it become about rarity?

[Geeselad]

I've heard so many punters from the wheel and torch era say that it was never about rarity, and reference many common records and new releases that were played. When did rarity or perhaps exclusivity become of paramount importance in terms of northern soul? As I'm writing I'm questioning my motivation, recent discussions on trophy DJs and ego's dominating playlists. Tin hats on standby

[Dobber]

Rarity or value?

I’ve had very rare records that don’t have much value,then records that are easy to obtain but have to pay a lot for?

so I wonder it’s a money driven scene more than actual rarity? 
 

or is it simply everyone chase’s the proven floor fillers, that are in the end the best northern soul records,most of us are just bored of them,but which in turn cost more to buy?

I personally didn’t give a shit about rarity,value,or even original when I got into northern,but now for all my sins it’s a big factor!

[Rick Scott]

Very interesting question this, from a personal point of view i started collecting records at the age of 13 or 14 (1963/64) and first DJ'd around '67/68 ( I was 17 \ 18 years old then) Whilst i liked to go for obscure releases (records I didn't know but looked interesting and asked to have a listen to over the phone) usualy from record lists from the USA & UK obtained via Music mags (Soul And Pop) using the back pages advertisements, then as we know the term Northern Soul became a thing with it a lot of Snobbery creeping in and your 'oooooh you should only be playing Rare 60's records' and the purists who wouldn't have anything do with 70's (new releases or other) I got a lot of stick as did a lot of other Dj's did for being open minded and embracing records from any era old or new, my policy was i bought and played records i liked, not what other Dj's were playing just because they were BIG as a lot of BIG records played wern't my cup of tea and regards of Price or Rarety of records (many a cheap record were so much better than some expensive ones so it never bothered me) i just went my own way tried to find the best records i could find and just took it all on the chin      

[John Hart]

Quando ,Quando ? The clues in the question ,exactly When ( Maybe also where ) did rarity dominate to many on the scene?  As geese correctly states, nobody at the Room, Wheel ,Toptwenty, Cats Mecca etc  late sixties up to Casino 74,, would ask consider, expect , the DJ to discuss how rare, or the  number of copies or price, they where simply great dance sounds!

From mid seventies  perhaps,, exclusivity was born,   today rarity is cited  by main record suppliers as a big factor in quality and price.

[Geeselad]

4 minutes ago, John Hart said:

Quando ,Quando ? The clues in the question ,exactly When ( Maybe also where ) did rarity dominate to many on the scene?  As geese correctly states, nobody at the Room, Wheel ,Toptwenty, Cats Mecca etc  late sixties up to Casino 74,, would ask consider, expect , the DJ to discuss how rare, or the  number of copies or price, they where simply great dance sounds!

From mid seventies  perhaps,, exclusivity was born,   today rarity is cited  by main record suppliers as a big factor in quality and price.

Obviously I wasn't around but im speculating that the focus was in the music rather than the djs, and indeed the atmosphere, dancing and other pleasures.

[Wally Francis]

I think it possibly started when Dj's started the covering up of tunes, they wanted that rare unknown trophy tune to play to the masses and possibly at the same time were scooping up numerous copies to sell on for inflated prices to the uneducated followers.

[Geeselad]

50 minutes ago, Wally Francis said:

I think it possibly started when Dj's started the covering up of tunes, they wanted that rare unknown trophy tune to play to the masses and possibly at the same time were scooping up numerous copies to sell on for inflated prices to the uneducated followers.

Tbh I hadn't considered this factor which in turn ties in with the rise of bootlegs 

[Dobber]

My first point of reference to a record being the focus of money, was a Dave evison radio show on signal in the mid 80’s and the guest dj was on (maybe butch) mentioned this was the first record to exchange for £1000 and it was magnetics lady in green,and it was then I realised not all records were a fiver or less so it was downhill after that

[Chalky]

Hasn't it always ben about rarity and a Dj having records others didn't, certainly since the Torch from what I can see or the rise of imports rather than UK releases.

[Wheelsville1]

20 minutes ago, Dobber said:

My first point of reference to a record being the focus of money, was a Dave evison radio show on signal in the mid 80’s and the guest dj was on (maybe butch) mentioned this was the first record to exchange for £1000 and it was magnetics lady in green,and it was then I realised not all records were a fiver or less so it was downhill after that

The first £1000 record was Robby Lawson Burning Sensation bought by Pat Brady. 

[Woodbutcher]

32 minutes ago, Dobber said:

My first point of reference to a record being the focus of money, was a Dave evison radio show on signal in the mid 80’s and the guest dj was on (maybe butch) mentioned this was the first record to exchange for £1000 and it was magnetics lady in green,and it was then I realised not all records were a fiver or less so it was downhill after that

I have a tape of a Sunset Radio Show from '90-91 , with Richard and Kev Roberts and the interview with Tim Brown about the first few thousand pound plus records , it's here on a previous post.

 

 

[Soul Shrews]

40 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Hasn't it always ben about rarity and a Dj having records others didn't, certainly since the Torch from what I can see or the rise of imports rather than UK releases.

Yep as it seems to be written in stone that rarity wasn't a problem @ the Wheel I would guess rarity would have become a factor @ the Torch & Catacombs ?

Cheers Paul

[Julianb]

5 hours ago, Rick Scott said:

Very interesting question this, from a personal point of view i started collecting records at the age of 13 or 14 (1963/64) and first DJ'd around '67/68 ( I was 17 \ 18 years old then) Whilst i liked to go for obscure releases (records I didn't know but looked interesting and asked to have a listen to over the phone) usualy from record lists from the USA & UK obtained via Music mags (Soul And Pop) using the back pages advertisements, then as we know the term Northern Soul became a thing with it a lot of Snobbery creeping in and your 'oooooh you should only be playing Rare 60's records' and the purists who wouldn't have anything do with 70's (new releases or other) I got a lot of stick as did a lot of other Dj's did for being open minded and embracing records from any era old or new, my policy was i bought and played records i liked, not what other Dj's were playing just because they were BIG as a lot of BIG records played wern't my cup of tea and regards of Price or Rarety of records (many a cheap record were so much better than some expensive ones so it never bothered me) i just went my own way tried to find the best records i could find and just took it all on the chin      

You had a phone in '67? Luxury!

[Julianb]

2 hours ago, Geeselad said:

Tbh I hadn't considered this factor which in turn ties in with the rise of bootlegs 

First cover ups I know about were done by Dave Godin. Via John Bollen ( and maybe Frannie O 'Brien) he sent up North, Ad libs nothing worse than being alone and Joy Lovejoy In Orbit. Played in Halifax at the Vic Lounge by Graham Slater and myself at Lord Jim's in Huddersfield.  Happy days.

[Geeselad]

3 hours ago, Chalky said:

Hasn't it always ben about rarity and a Dj having records others didn't, certainly since the Torch from what I can see or the rise of imports rather than UK releases.

It's not always as straight forward as you might think, herb ward- honest to goodness, I know minshull first played it off the funky bottom congregation compilation on UK RCA. 

[Chalky]

9 hours ago, Geeselad said:

It's not always as straight forward as you might think, herb ward- honest to goodness, I know minshull first played it off the funky bottom congregation compilation on UK RCA. 

It's never been straight forward.  Generally though it's always been about oneupmanship (in a friendly way)and who has what the rest don't.  There was a time anything cheap and available would be ignored totally.  As soon as other copies turned up it would be dropped, as soon as something booted it would be dropped.

It's not the case anymore as there is nothing new, it is now all about how much a record costs and generally the most expensive aren't the rarest.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Chalky

[Solidsoul]

It will of started when records were becoming popular at venues in the late 60's, and they had been deleted from the record shops!

Record rarity has always helped the Northern Soul scene. It's been a big motivation for people to travel to allnighters to hear the latest big tunes.  Of course, the internet spoiled that to a certain extent.

These days dj sets it can be predictable!   The same old £1000 records again and again!

I remember in the 1990's at one of the Ritz Allnighter Rarest of the Rare sessions.  Among all the rare monsters and biggie's, to stir things up a little, Richard Searling banged on one of the greatest, cheapest classics around. "Washed Ashore" by The Platters.  The dance floor erupted and it was so refreshing to hear something we didn't expect!! 

I am all for playing big rarities, but we also need a bit of imagination applied with the records played as well!

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Solidsoul

[Jez Jones]

13 hours ago, Chalky said:

Hasn't it always ben about rarity and a Dj having records others didn't, certainly since the Torch from what I can see or the rise of imports rather than UK releases.

Not really..from my experience anyway. Whilst there was always a 'collecting culture' well that had to be ..otherwise we wouldn't be here now....BUT and this is my experience ..others may differ....there was a hell of a lot MORE going on than the clamour to have the most expensive  or should i say exclusive record amongst mass hordes of other willy wavers.........whilst nowadays it seems focussed on the records and ownership thereof

There was always the expensive records..even then and before.....as is now......but the subtle difference I think is how much importance is placed upon them


I'm sure people will remember...back then there were a lot of people that din't really care about buying/collecting..indeed some that didn't like the music !!! What were they doing there then...i hear people say ?  ...thats a measure of the scene exclusivity NOT record exclusivity !! from the era

I think Geese is getting at the fact its becoming too anal...and will end up eating itself with an ever diminishing focus on other things(whatever that may be  ) rather than records...and an increasing focus on a DJ culture...not a social  or music culture



So not an attack on collector/dj search and procurement of expensive/exclusive records...more a  'has it really got to be so anal..it was never thus so (in my experience).....?????????????

Someone once told me what do you call a DJ who has forgotten to bring his his record box ?

...a none paying punter !!

[Roburt]

No idea when 'rarity' became the be all & end all of the NS scene ... don't really care that much either as that part of the scene was never for me -- I had a family to look after, so paying £100 for a soul 45 was never on my radar.

BUT, I was collecting soul 45's from 1965, starting with buying just UK 45's, then UK LP's . . ... then when I was attending the Wheel most weekends & the DJ's there were playing UK 45's that had been deleted, I started chasing import 45's from places like Soul City Shop (mail order), F L Moores (L Buzzard), UK Record Dealers mailed out lists, Ray Avery Rare Recs (Calif), Randy's Record Shop (Gallatin, US) & via New Jersey Record Warehouses I managed to get lists sent from. My trips to the Wheel niters started in September 67. I used to think (may be wrong, but that was my impression at the time), that lots of UK soul 45's (by the lesser known acts) were 'held back' by the Wheel DJ's till after they had been deleted here AND ONLY THEN they would all start hammering those singles.  

There was a big earthquake in Calif in 1971 & I think that caused major damage at Randys Rec Store (San Fran), he lost lots of his rare stock, so I stopped ordering 45's from him after that. The other outlets I would buy from till I stopped attending niters in the early 70's I was still buying more recent releases / soul packs / soul sound 45's from the likes of B&S / Boylens, etc around 1971 -- I recall wanting the latest 45 from Marvin Smith on Mayfield at the time (early 71 - being made aware of it from the new US 45 release listings in every B&S mag). That 45 had "Who Will Do Your Running Now" on the B side but I didn't know the track, I just liked everything Curtis Mayfield had a hand in at that time.   

From there, I got more into major label soul stuff and gradually lost touch with what were the latest sounds on the niter scene. I had amassed a large collection of UK / US / Euro released soul 45's / LP's though. Current niter goers back then -- Paul Temple, his mate from Selby (was his name Sharkey or sumat like that), Snowy and his mates would call round & plunder my collection for stuff that was much more valuable on the NS scene than I realised; Tobi Legend on US issue, Artistics on Okeh and much more.    

Edited August 14, 2023 by Roburt

[Roburt]

Nashville radio stn WLAC had strong ties to Randys Record Shop -- think the shop sponsored shows on the stn.

Anyway, I'd get sent the latest Randys 45 catalogue each time a new edition was printed (annually ? or even more often). At first, I'd just order from what was listed in the mag -- mainly newer releases. But then I realised that stuff like Bobby Bland's "Call On Me" was already years old & that some major label 45's never took off anywhere across the States and so issues were hard to track down. But radio stn copies of many you could get. So I started to send 'wants lists' to Randys & Ray Averys. I got lucky quite a few times via Randys Records & they'd send me a radio stn copy of a 45 I'd enquired about (The Kittens "Ain't No More Room" being the 1st of these I recall). The only annoying thing was, they'd scratch off the NOT FOR SALE writing on the 45 labels & I didn't like having un-played singles with 'damaged labels'. I always suspected that some of the 45's they sent me had been sourced from the WLAC library (but have no idea if I'm right).

WLAC: The powerhouse Nashville station that helped introduce R&B to the world (tennessean.com) ...

//eu.tennessean.com/in-depth/entertainment/2021/09/23/wlac-radio-nashville-station-rb-soul-music/5606792001/

[Kenb]

@Roburt

As interesting as your 2 previous posts are (to me)...only you could confess to not having any idea or caring about rarity, but then turn those 2 posts into something entirely different. 

take it in good heart 

[Dobber]

17 hours ago, Woodbutcher said:

I have a tape of a Sunset Radio Show from '90-91 , with Richard and Kev Roberts and the interview with Tim Brown about the first few thousand pound plus records , it's here on a previous post.

 

 

I’m sure the Dave evison reference was a few years earlier than this show,im sure him making the point that the magnetics is the first to hit a grand,and the copy looked like a bad day at sea?

[Rick Scott]

Yes it was called a Phone Box that doubled up as a toilet

It meant getting up out of bed  all hours of the morning to ring the states and the same phone box to ring for those in the UK until i got married and my Mrs had a phone put in..... 

16 hours ago, Julianb said:

You had a phone in '67? Luxury!

 

[Irishpip]

I did a quick search and found a Manchester Evening News article where Brian Phillips was quoted as saying "In my time Djing at The Wheel, imports were becoming more and more prevalent and accounted for around 35 percent of my plays. Soul imports started surfacing in the mid-sixties, turning up in obscure places"

I've no doubt that rarity and exclusivity were irrelevant to many punters at that time, and the same is true today, but it's not surprising to see that that djs were seeking out difficult to obtain records to add freshness and exclusivity to their sets.

[Philt]

It's a complex discussion for sure as there's a looong history attached and so many facets to it, as others have already pointed out.

In response to the original question, rarity and / or value have never been of paramount importance to me personally and I guess the latter only really comes into it if you've bought records on the tenuous premise that they are a 'good investment', 'my pension' etc - that will certainly have borne a fair bit of fruit in recent years but seems highly unlikely in the longer term, for obvious reasons. If you're looking to invest knock yourself out but that's never been a motivation for me personally.

I think it's fair to say that rarity has always been a factor, during my time on the scene anyway- I first started going to nighters in the early eighties and have been out and about and collecting in some shape or form ever since. You start where you start then you delve a bit deeper and your taste broadens and maybe even evolves. With any luck, your income does too which means some of those things you could only ever dream of owning might actually be within reach. Why wouldn't ya? (I've done without plenty to buy records I've chased for 20+ years in some cases).

By the same token, the  scene's demographic dictates that some people will have more disposable and, allied to how easy it is now to hear stuff and how the media bandwagon keeps on rolling, you get to a point where you can easily lose the will to live as you enter 'rare and overplayed' hell. (Gaz Kellet predicted that we'd be f*cked when you could hear the Magnetics walking round Tesco - ahead of the game as per ) 

I get a bit grizzly about 'trophy dj's' and 'willy wavers' because it over simplifies things massively and seems to throw a blanket over one part of the scene that's always been integral to it in my experience. I'm sure there are folk out there who simply chuck money at established records and who play sets consisting solely of expensive records in no particular order. Crack on. If it makes you happy I'm happy for you but it's nothing to do with anything I want to be part of and is laughably unimpressive.

However, there's a whiff of an inference in 'willy wavers' and 'trophy djs'  that anyone playing rare records is on the same page as those characters, has loads of money to slosh around, a huge ego and no idea and I don't think that's the case at all - just as it's entirely unfair to say that people playing so-called 'funky edged' or 'underplayed' sounds are all sporting that emperor's new clothes and do so only because they have no northern that's good enough. Again, it over simplifies things to a ridiculous extent and throws a blanket over people who are all shaped and motivated by different things (as well as some of the same things of course - I guess ego has always been a bit of a thing for djs hasn't it, kinda goes with the territory to some extent).

Personally, I think it's about balance. Do I want to hear sets full of expensive records for the sake of themselves, second  rate 'funky' or stuff just because it's 'cheap', 'underplayed' or 'different'? I'd rather stop in with a curry (and do just that, increasingly).

Do I still get a real buzz out of hearing a really well put together set consisting of some tasty rarities, maybe even an  'exclusive' (God forbid), a sprinkling of 'thinking wo/man's oldies' and maybe something forgotten or even a bit left field? All day long. Always been the same.

 

[Roburt]

10 minutes ago, Irishpip said:

I did a quick search and found a Manchester Evening News article where Brian Phillips was quoted as saying "In my time Djing at The Wheel, imports were becoming more and more prevalent and accounted for around 35 percent of my plays. Soul imports started surfacing in the mid-sixties, turning up in obscure places"

I've no doubt that rarity and exclusivity were irrelevant to many punters at that time, and the same is true today, but it's not surprising to see that that djs were seeking out difficult to obtain records to add freshness and exclusivity to their sets.

I don't think the DJ's were actively seeking out rare records as such, though of course they all wanted exclusives (even back then). Some of the import 45's that got played in clubs like the Wheel (& the Scene in London) came from UK record companies who had the rights to many US soul tracks. They couldn't afford to release them all .As little or no money was put into promoting soul 45 releases by UK majors back then, the 45's would 'sink or swim' on their own merit. So, to test the waters, UK labels would get some import copies & send them to pirate radio & club DJ's. If they got a good reaction, then the 45 would be considered for UK release ... of course, with clubs being involved, the tracks that prospered were mainly dance tempo items. 

Back then there was no internet and little info on US soul 45 releases included in UK music mags. So, apart from on labels such as Motown, Stax, Atlantic, Bell, Chess, most new US releases went under the radar. I would try to find 'unknowns' by bidding low on a 45 by an act I had heard of or that was on a label a fave of mine had come out on. Lots of the time this 'blind buying' would get me a 45 I didn't really like, but the cost was low enough per 45 to make it worthwhile. When B&S came about, knowledge on what was around in the US jumped right up. Listening to pirate radio from around 65 also increased my knowledge as they always played lots of imports.

[Roburt]

3 hours ago, Kenb said:

@Roburt

As interesting as your 2 previous posts are (to me)...only you could confess to not having any idea or caring about rarity, but then turn those 2 posts into something entirely different. 

take it in good heart 

I was referring to the top sounds & their value in the Casino era, by then I was off the niter scene & buying much more modern / mainstream stuff. I didn't really care what was big @ Wigan or know / care about the value (unless by chance, I had a copy myself).

But from the mid 60's to around 72, I was buying stuff I didn't know (buying blind or on a recommendation). I never paid much for any of these purchases (my most expensive buy being the French Motown EP that contained "Love A GoGo" -- coz that was the only way to get one of my fave Mojo anthem tracks on 7") but that didn't mean I didn't get hold of a few items that became top sounds later on. But I either liked them or not because of what they sounded like, not whether they were rare or not. I liked the Sapphires "Gotta Have Your Love" and so bid about 2/6 off a mailing list for a different Sapphires 45. This was an import only item but I didn't like it coz the lyrics were too banal for my taste. Thus I sold this 45 to a niter guy who'd come round to listen to items in my collection. I sold it for a small sum (in 1970) & never regretted it -- the track in question being "Slow Fizz". 

I got back into the 'scene' again after Richard Searling started up on Radio Hallam & I liked most of what he was playing (new, jazz funk, deep, NS, MS, etc.). He was playing NS stuff I liked & that caught my interest (+ the best current niter venue was just down the road). So, since around 1980, I did take an interest once again in prices, so of course that meant I had to care about rarity. Still would want to own a track by say Zingara over one by the Magnetics though. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Roburt

[Chalky]

Exclusivity and rarity often went hand in hand.

You only had to look at venues advertising their nights.  As far back as the mid 70s you would see ads for the likes of the Mecca listing their exclusives that you couldn't hear anywhere else, same for Wigan.  Often they were rare at least fore a period of time.  Djs got a booking for their exclusives, they still do to a certain extent but more often than not now it is how much the Dj has spent.

I didn't travel all over the country to hear records I could hear in the local soul night.  I wanted the rarities, exclusives, unknowns.

[Jez Jones]

On 13/08/2023 at 14:48, Geeselad said:

I've heard so many punters from the wheel and torch era say that it was never about rarity, and reference many common records and new releases that were played. When did rarity or perhaps exclusivity become of paramount importance in terms of northern soul? As I'm writing I'm questioning my motivation, recent discussions on trophy DJs and ego's dominating playlists. Tin hats on standby

Just breaking this down a bit....we tending to go off on a wholly (not HOLY) dj angle...which i dont think the OP was aiming for (could be wrong )

**I've heard so many punters from the wheel and torch era say that it was never about rarity, and reference many common records and new releases that were played.

Yes indeed PUNTERS in general weren't bothered....any collectors took more of an interest...but really...there was MUCH MORE going on at an allnighter...dont forget we were 16 ffs.....................yeah exactly !!

**When did rarity or perhaps exclusivity become of paramount importance in terms of northern soul?

This is more subjective imo. I would think it was when people's reason for going to an allnighter was to hear new sounds and had started collecting seriously

which leads us to today and we all old and wrinkly and have opinions..and the only reason we go out is the 'music.'..thats the 'buzz !!...the odd few go out to take photos but that doesn't effect the point in question...

The only 'hit' we've got left is either being seen with loadsa people OR hearing some music which is fresh and ideally new/forgotten or whatever floats ya boat

...I think this leads us on to another question which links to the OP's ego comment

Do we REALLY need to be obsessed with price/rarity...is it creating an elite group who are seen as 'leaders' and put bums on seats for promoters  ...where in actual fact we could (not saying we should) consolidate and  and be inclusive for everyone ..........buck the trend and just play some 'nice records' 

Imagine the other 99.9% of the population looking in from the outside and thinking ffs they're only records







 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Jez Jones
mistake

[Chalky]

2 hours ago, Jez Jones said:

Just breaking this down a bit....we tending to go off on a wholly (not HOLY) dj angle...which i dont think the OP was aiming for (could be wrong )

**I've heard so many punters from the wheel and torch era say that it was never about rarity, and reference many common records and new releases that were played.

Yes indeed PUNTERS in general weren't bothered....any collectors took more of an interest...but really...there was MUCH MORE going on at an allnighter...dont forget we were 16 ffs.....................yeah exactly !!

**When did rarity or perhaps exclusivity become of paramount importance in terms of northern soul?

This is more subjective imo. I would think it was when people's reason for going to an allnighter was to hear new sounds and had started collecting seriously

which leads us to today and we all old and wrinkly and have opinions..and the only reason we go out is the 'music.'..thats the 'buzz !!...the odd few go out to take photos but that doesn't effect the point in question...

The only 'hit' we've got left is either being seen with loadsa people OR hearing some music which is fresh and ideally new/forgotten or whatever floats ya boat

...I think this leads us on to another question which links to the OP's ego comment

Do we REALLY need to be obsessed with price/rarity...is it creating an elite group who are seen as 'leaders' and put bums on seats for promoters  ...where in actual fact we could (not saying we should) consolidate and  and be inclusive for everyone ..........buck the trend and just play some 'nice records' 

Imagine the other 99.9% of the population looking in from the outside and thinking ffs they're only records







 

To say punters weren't bothered isn't strictly true.  Most I know travelled to hear what they couldn't hear anywhere else, they followed Djs, they followed the music. They might not have been bothered about what the records costs but they knew they were rare and they knew know one else could play them.

The scene has always been centred around rare records, exclusive Dj plays, its always been elitist, its always had those above others but it has always been inclusive despite cliques.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Chalky

[Geeselad]

38 minutes ago, Chalky said:

To say punters weren't bothered isn't strictly true.  Most I know travelled to hear what they couldn't hear anywhere else, they followed Djs, they followed the music. They might not have been bothered about what the records costs but they knew they were rare and they knew know one else could play them.

The scene has always been centred around rare records, exclusive Dj plays, its always been elitist, its always had those above others but it has always been inclusive despite cliques.

Two different entry points here, that was my point initially, and two different experiences.

Rarity was certainly embedded when I started in '87, but the desire by everyone to DJ wasn't. Getting involved was through social aspects, collecting or dancing.

Exclusivity and rarity now mean practically the same thing, in 1972 I don't think they were. Someone must have been the first to play landside, but I can't have been long before most djs, playing decent size venues, had a copy, weeks? Due to its relative abundance as a nationally distributed record in the US, not quite the same with the mello souls was it? That's why I make the distinction between between rare and exclusive here. 

[Chalky]

11 hours ago, Geeselad said:

Two different entry points here, that was my point initially, and two different experiences.

Rarity was certainly embedded when I started in '87, but the desire by everyone to DJ wasn't. Getting involved was through social aspects, collecting or dancing.

Exclusivity and rarity now mean practically the same thing, in 1972 I don't think they were. Someone must have been the first to play landside, but I can't have been long before most djs, playing decent size venues, had a copy, weeks? Due to its relative abundance as a nationally distributed record in the US, not quite the same with the mello souls was it? That's why I make the distinction between between rare and exclusive here. 

But even Landslide was exclusive and rare at one time, just like the Melli Souls and the Dj and the track talked about. Probably dropped when other copies turned up?  The Mello Souls has always been rare and expensive and will remain so but it is a record we all travelled to hear Butch spin, along with the rest of his set, the same for Guy, Keb, Rob Marriott etc etc.

I agree about the majority not having the desire to Dj but that didn’t make the scene any less elitist.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Chalky

[Steve G]

On 13/08/2023 at 19:15, Chalky said:

Hasn't it always ben about rarity and a Dj having records others didn't, certainly since the Torch from what I can see or the rise of imports rather than UK releases.

Exactly this. And certainly by the time of Blackpool and Wigan (when I joined up for this ride), rarity and exclusivity was 100% "a thing". Even as kids, we wanted something exclusive that practically no one else had.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Steve G

[Benji]

one-upmanship has been a driving force in this scene since the very beginnings. Based on that it's only logical to try to source records nobody else (or hardly anyone else) has. And this is where the focus on rarity comes into (IMHO).

[Roburt]

On 14/08/2023 at 20:06, Steve G said:

Exactly this. And certainly by the time of Blackpool and Wigan (when I joined up for this ride), rarity and exclusivity was 100% "a thing". Even as kids, we wanted something exclusive that practically no one else had.

+ Chalky said ... 

To say punters weren't bothered isn't strictly true.  . . . The scene has always been centred around rare records, exclusive Dj plays, its always been elitist ...

CHALKY, NOT THE CASE IN THE MID 60's ... I was attending lots of the top soul clubs (outside London) back then -- the Mojo, Bee Gee, Nite Owl, Wheel, Tin Chicken, etc ... we didn't know enough back then to know what was RARE ... we'd assume an obscure 45 on UK HMV or Pye International was rare just coz we couldn't find a copy when we wanted it. We'd also no idea if a 45 on say US Symbol,  Sue, Sims or Bell was as rare as a 45 on Shrine, Velgo, Bonnie or Queen City (not that we knew those labels even existed). We just wanted to own a copy of the single we were dancing to each weekend & didn't care if had made the top of the US R & B charts / made the Hot 100 pop chart. The majority of UK released soul 45's had either been at least 'radio hits' in the US or came from a US label that already had a licensing deal with a UK record company. UK released 45's were the mainstay of the scene we were on. 

When we get to 1972/73 things had certainly changed but back when we were chasing copies of "Jump Back", "Ride Your Pony" "I Did Your Act", "See Saw" & "Whispers" it wasn't so. To many on here, those were all youth club tracks, to us they were mainstream niter fooder. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Roburt

[Chalky]

36 minutes ago, Roburt said:

+ Chalky said ... 

To say punters weren't bothered isn't strictly true.  . . . The scene has always been centred around rare records, exclusive Dj plays, its always been elitist ...

CHALKY, NOT THE CASE IN THE MID 60's ... I was attending lots of the top soul clubs (outside London) back then -- the Mojo, Bee Gee, Nite Owl, Wheel, Tin Chicken, etc ... we didn't know enough back then to know what was RARE ... we'd assume an obscure 45 on UK HMV or Pye International was rare just coz we couldn't find a copy when we wanted it. We'd also no idea if a 45 on say US Symbol,  Sue, Sims or Bell was as rare as a 45 on Shrine, Velgo, Bonnie or Queen City (not that we knew those labels even existed). We just wanted to own a copy of the single we were dancing to each weekend & didn't care if had made the top of the US R & B charts / made the Hot 100 pop chart. The majority of UK released soul 45's had either been at least 'radio hits' in the US or came from a US label that already had a licensing deal with a UK record company. UK released 45's were the mainstay of the scene we were on. 

When we get to 1972/73 things had certainly changed but back when we were chasing copies of "Jump Back", "Ride Your Pony" "I Did Your Act", "See Saw" & "Whispers" it wasn't so. To many on here, those were all youth club tracks, to us they were mainstream niter fooder. 

I did say in another post by the time imports were what everyone was chasing and by the time of the Torch and certainly by the time of the the Catacombs, VaVas, Mecca, Wigan. 

[Chalky]

There are also written accounts of the disputes between traditional wheel goers, those who preferred the more mod, Brit R&B, club soul etc and those moving towards the more northern sounds and imports. 

[Kenb]

24 minutes ago, Chalky said:

I did say in another post by the time imports were what everyone was chasing and by the time of the Torch and certainly by the time of the the Catacombs, VaVas, Mecca, Wigan. 

yes Chalky - e.g. "I'll always love you" , Spinners

[Chalky]

21 minutes ago, Kenb said:

yes Chalky - e.g. "I'll always love you" , Spinners

I would also say from accounts I’ve read the mid 60s wasn’t the Northern scene either. The split you read aboutcoming later in the 60s. 
Pretty obvious that any burgeoning scene the main focus wouldn’t be the DJs the records the collecting, rather just going out and having a good time in one’s youth. I doubt any in the mid 60s thought what they were doing would grow into the monster it would in the 70s. 

[Jimmy Welsh]

On 14/08/2023 at 09:29, Roburt said:

No idea when 'rarity' became the be all & end all of the NS scene ... don't really care that much either as that part of the scene was never for me -- I had a family to look after, so paying £100 for a soul 45 was never on my radar.

BUT, I was collecting soul 45's from 1965, starting with buying just UK 45's, then UK LP's . . ... then when I was attending the Wheel most weekends & the DJ's there were playing UK 45's that had been deleted, I started chasing import 45's from places like Soul City Shop (mail order), F L Moores (L Buzzard), UK Record Dealers mailed out lists, Ray Avery Rare Recs (Calif), Randy's Record Shop (Gallatin, US) & via New Jersey Record Warehouses I managed to get lists sent from. My trips to the Wheel niters started in September 67. I used to think (may be wrong, but that was my impression at the time), that lots of UK soul 45's (by the lesser known acts) were 'held back' by the Wheel DJ's till after they had been deleted here AND ONLY THEN they would all start hammering those singles.  

There was a big earthquake in Calif in 1971 & I think that caused major damage at Randys Rec Store (San Fran), he lost lots of his rare stock, so I stopped ordering 45's from him after that. The other outlets I would buy from till I stopped attending niters in the early 70's I was still buying more recent releases / soul packs / soul sound 45's from the likes of B&S / Boylens, etc around 1971 -- I recall wanting the latest 45 from Marvin Smith on Mayfield at the time (early 71 - being made aware of it from the new US 45 release listings in every B&S mag). That 45 had "Who Will Do Your Running Now" on the B side but I didn't know the track, I just liked everything Curtis Mayfield had a hand in at that time.   

From there, I got more into major label soul stuff and gradually lost touch with what were the latest sounds on the niter scene. I had amassed a large collection of UK / US / Euro released soul 45's / LP's though. Current niter goers back then -- Paul Temple, his mate from Selby (was his name Sharkey or sumat like that), Snowy and his mates would call round & plunder my collection for stuff that was much more valuable on the NS scene than I realised; Tobi Legend on US issue, Artistics on Okeh and much more.    

John Starkey

[Roburt]

3 hours ago, Chalky said:

I would also say from accounts I’ve read the mid 60s wasn’t the Northern scene either. 

So the Wheel in 66/67 wasn't playing Northern Soul tracks ? 

[Tlscapital]

5 hours ago, Roburt said:

+ Chalky said ... 

To say punters weren't bothered isn't strictly true.  . . . The scene has always been centred around rare records, exclusive Dj plays, its always been elitist ...

CHALKY, NOT THE CASE IN THE MID 60's ... I was attending lots of the top soul clubs (outside London) back then -- the Mojo, Bee Gee, Nite Owl, Wheel, Tin Chicken, etc ... we didn't know enough back then to know what was RARE ... we'd assume an obscure 45 on UK HMV or Pye International was rare just coz we couldn't find a copy when we wanted it. We'd also no idea if a 45 on say US Symbol,  Sue, Sims or Bell was as rare as a 45 on Shrine, Velgo, Bonnie or Queen City (not that we knew those labels even existed). We just wanted to own a copy of the single we were dancing to each weekend & didn't care if had made the top of the US R & B charts / made the Hot 100 pop chart. The majority of UK released soul 45's had either been at least 'radio hits' in the US or came from a US label that already had a licensing deal with a UK record company. UK released 45's were the mainstay of the scene we were on. 

When we get to 1972/73 things had certainly changed but back when we were chasing copies of "Jump Back", "Ride Your Pony" "I Did Your Act", "See Saw" & "Whispers" it wasn't so. To many on here, those were all youth club tracks, to us they were mainstream niter fooder. 

Yes but (which means no but also yes although there's more to it ) for example I remember being showed a specific UK sixties 'want add' snippet offering a lot (back then) for a copy of the Vibrations 'soul a go go' on Okeh (USA only).

Meaning that the sound was being played and sought after too (meaning rare) and hard to locate then in the UK. The 'rare' of then was evidently as the sound of then different. Still all the same together a factor. Not THE factor though.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Tlscapital

[Kenb]

more scarce than rare...although i accept they can and are often interchanged

[Chalky]

2 hours ago, Roburt said:

So the Wheel in 66/67 wasn't playing Northern Soul tracks ? 

I didn’t say that but It wasn’t known as Northern Soul then. But it wasn’t the northern scene it would become a few years later with plenty of brit pop R&B and mod in the mix. I have read many accounts of the arguments about the musical direction back then.

[Steve G]

I always recall the Va Va ads from 72-73. I never went of course, but there was a list of sounds for you to come and hear. At the time, most of these were either cover ups or "rare". What is this thread about anyway?  

[Hooker1951]

The All nighters I went to and the Soul nights in the mid to late sixties played plenty of tracks that later became NS classics or good club Soul, to us at the time it was just great music, You would expect to hear loads of Stax, Atlantic, and Motown interspersed with James Brown , sugar pie de santo, olympics Jackie Lee , Bob n Earl, flamingoes, Brenton wood ,Showstoppers ,etc etc the difference them days there was nearly always a live band on ie , Geno Washington n  the  Ram jam band and a Irish group called the Wheels who performed live doing their version of American Rn B and Soul, they made for very atmospheric experiences  very full on of course if you went to the Wheel  they had top artists on from the USA every other week, But it was a pretty big scene all round the country at that time, You would too get tracks played the likes of Len Barry , and Lou Christie a touch of blue eyed Soul, Roy Head was in the mix in those days too, everybody has their own time with the love of Soul music and their own opinions that’s what is s fascinating about it , It’s like being on a big Highway and you come off exploring the A and B roads find what your looking for and get back on the Highway as long as we are all heading in the right direction or similar we won’t catch any harm. Although some went on the A roads then B roads and got stuck in a cul de sac, but the Music Carries on Regardless

Kind Regards

Mick L

[Baz Atkinson]

Enjoyed reading this thread . The Wheel had collectors that kicked into gear collecting British Stuff etc . 
The birth of northern brought the rarity factor I had a friend who had every Action British release who went to the wheel regular . He continued his journey to the casino to pick records up and hated the place lol . 
I also remember and sone will deffo agree that even when i started going to the casino in 77 collecting British was still big news ! 
Cover ups at Wigan pushed the rare side to another level imho lots of the purists had went  by then ? 
I say purists I mean the old wheel collectors who incidentally when the mod thing resurfaced in 77 78 started turning back up .

The casino had a brilliant Mod All-nighter which looking back was a site to behold it threw lots of generations together and was the only time I ever saw scooters on mass outside an all nighter . 
If I ever had a choice it would of been the wheel for me it’s was supa cool even the likes of Levine etc bowed to it ,the trouble was the supa competitive nature of later djs spilled over and by then towards the end the imports weee becoming the trophies not British Stateside Sue Action etc ! 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Baz Atkinson

[Roburt]

When the Casino first got soul ... 1968 ...

... they also had the watered-down fake version (the Love Affair) & the UK version (Geno) ...

 . . .  but by 1970, it had been lost  ... only to be found again, later in the decade ...

Edited August 16, 2023 by Roburt

[Chalky]

4 minutes ago, Roburt said:

When the Casino first got soul ... 1968 ...

... they also had the watered-down fake version (the Love Affair) & the UK version (Geno) ...

 . . .  but by 1970, it had been lost  ... only to be found again, later in the decade ...

Not sure what this has to do with rarity

[Roburt]

I think this topic went beyond just chasing 'rare releases' a while ago.

BTW, Ray Averys wasn't stocking rare soul records, they specialised in rare jazz, do-wop & 50's R&B. I guess if the earthquake hadn't just about wiped them out, they'd have gotten into rare soul 45's (they were in the right place for many).

Edited August 16, 2023 by Roburt