Have I blown a great chance?

[JJMMWG DuPree]

I've just been reading about the Proms NS gig, and I'm remembering a pre-lockdown discussion I had with someone I assume was an agent.  He told me I should form a Northern Soul group.  There was only one NS group within miles he said, and he thought I could clean-up.  Me, I wasn't so sure.  I love live music, but NS it seemed to me was all about rare songs played on original vinyl, and while a group could certainly outperform vinyl on the rare-songs front, I had serious doubts about the viability of the project.  Who goes to listen to live Northern Soul?

Then along came Covid and during the endless hours of lockdown I got quite into the project, wrote a few arrangements, dug out a few non-NS songs that actually had a NS structure that I could rearrange, and looked up some really basic stuff on the internet that could have been NS if it had ever been properly recorded.  I put about a dozen of these arrangements into Notion and then spent hours (Literally) trying to get them to sound like real human beings, just to get the idea...

Then I had a break in.  They obviously knew what they were there for, they took my computer and my backup (And my mum's old mobile which happened to be on charge).  I spent the next couple of weeks depressed as a concertina and by the time I'd perked up the idea of going through all that hard work again didn't appeal to me one little bit...

Do people go out to see live NS bands or groups?  Should I have gone for it?  Could that have been me performing at the Proms?

Someone put me out of my misery.  Please.

[Dobber]

A lot of work to put together the band,obviously many musicians are needed to get the full impact of the sound across,and I can’t see any musician wanting to put all that effort in it for one gig? Unless it was to continue playing regular gigs I wouldn’t bother!

also I think you could play live northern soul anywhere and get a great response, as long as the tunes were a mix of popular and a few obscure!

 

[Chalky]

I wouldn’t open the curtains if one was playing on the back garden. I’ve seen one who were support for a live act at Radcliffe, may have been The Signatures, they were terrible. 

[Leicester Boy]

Really not for me, have never ever understood tribute acts and would rather go to the dentist than see a ns tribute act, sorry.

[Amsterdam Russ]

The Originators, a Dutch northern soul band, were fantastic live. Their lead singer was a powerhouse vocalist. This is a tightly edited vid I made of them performing at the 10th anniversary of the Amsterdam Soul Club at the much-missed venue, De Badcuyp (the bathtub).

And a few years ago there was the excellent Mighty Typhoons, a short-lived band comprised of seasoned musicians, who gave us the excellent female version of “I’m com’un home in the morn’un”…

Superb, both!

[Shinehead]

Have I blown a great chance?

NO   , you dodged a bullet and also saved any credibility you may have.

[Steve G]

Signatures are certainly popular with the civilians / casuals. Not for me though.  

[Sunnysoul]

New Zealand group Jamie & the Numbers are for all intents and purposes a soul group with a strong focus on northern soul. They've been active for several years now and have released an LP and a number of 7" vinyl releases including very creditable covers of You Don't Love Me, If This Is Love I'd Rather Be Lonely, The Magic Touch ... the following clip includes a personal introduction by Robert Palladino, the man who wrote You Don't Love Me ...

 

[Soulandy]

One of the best soul cover bands out there must be Stax Of Soul. Not particularly NS but an aray of soul hits from Motown,  Stax, Club Soul, Blues Brothers etc. Seen them a few times over the years and certainly get the audience moving to some great soul tunes. Been going for around 40 years now and always seem to sell out at most gigs they do. 

https://www.staxofsoul.co.uk/about

Edited July 11, 2023 by Soulandy

[Kathryn Magson]

23 hours ago, Leicester Boy said:

Really not for me, have never ever understood tribute acts and would rather go to the dentist than see a ns tribute act, sorry.

I'll second that one Leicester Boy 

[Kenb]

Sometimes it’s hard to separate the vocal/ rendition from what the event represents.

I have stumbled across The Signatures live performance and they didn’t seem that bad to me…BUT it’s the crowd that’s attracted to it that makes it cringe worthy

i do vividly remember a “ tribute” group female lead singer once announcing that “this next song is from Wigan pier”.

[Paul-s]

To my humble ears ...they all sound soul-less and nothing to do with the scene or soul I connect(ed) with.

Like Italia Conte trained musical theatre school stuff......

If they truly admired the music they cover, they wouldn't try covering it in the first place: realising that they fall very short of the original. I think it takes a lot of ego to attempt it.

But, each to their own. Its just a different scene i think. I kind of soul in the sun, retired, Lost Summer Love, Interplay, historico-pastiche type thing. Just dont confuse it with Northern Soul.

[Paul-s]

On 11/07/2023 at 04:48, Sunnysoul said:

New Zealand group Jamie & the Numbers are for all intents and purposes a soul group with a strong focus on northern soul. They've been active for several years now and have released an LP and a number of 7" vinyl releases including very creditable covers of You Don't Love Me, If This Is Love I'd Rather Be Lonely, The Magic Touch ... the following clip includes a personal introduction by Robert Palladino, the man who wrote You Don't Love Me ...

 

Parody, tragedy, tribute, circus, pop, a bit of a laugh, Butlins at the weekend, Blues Brothers type thing..

But, nothing to do with Northern Soul except that the songs they cover have the same titles as some actual 'Northern Soul' songs.

(Just my humble opinion, based on what i hear)

[Chalky]

17 minutes ago, Paul-s said:

Parody, tragedy, tribute, circus, pop, a bit of a laugh, Butlins at the weekend, Blues Brothers type thing..

But, nothing to do with Northern Soul except that the songs they cover have the same titles as some actual 'Northern Soul' songs.

(Just my humble opinion, based on what i hear)

Spot on...oh you missed out Divs.  Like you say nothing to do with the scene and simply make a mockery of the records they are trying to cover.

[Roburt]

Good to know that the NS crowd have such open minds ... but then we know many are AVO ....

. . ..   American Version Only merchants.

99% of UK beat groups in the period 1963 to 1968 were just (basically) soul cover bands -- some great, most just jumping on the bandwagon. But even the bad groups (the bandwagon jumpers) introduced kids in the 60's to good soul songs. If you had an enquiring mind (no tinternet then), you could search out the original versions & discover soul acts you hadn't previously heard of.

Even worse than the crap groups amongst the throng that played R&B / soul were the British solo singers taking us for a ride ... Most times, many never even performed more than the odd soul song, the majority of their acts always being pure pop pap. But that hasn't stopped folk chasing (& paying £££ for) the old singles by them that they call N Soul. But those same folk that would buy Tammy St John, Barbara Ruskin, Carl King, Sandra Brown, etc 45's pass up getting many real soul gems coz they were recorded after 1979.

. . .   ELITISM + BLINKERED OPINION RULES I GUESS.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Roburt

[Benji]

12 hours ago, Chalky said:

Spot on...oh you missed out Divs.  Like you say nothing to do with the scene and simply make a mockery of the records they are trying to cover.

Funny you say that. Sorry to say but there are also many original artists that make a mockery of the tunes they recorded back in the 60s when they do a live gig nowadays.

[Leicester Boy]

12 hours ago, Roburt said:

Good to know that the NS crowd have such open minds ... but then we know many are AVO ....

. . ..   American Version Only merchants.

99% of UK beat groups in the period 1963 to 1968 were just (basically) soul cover bands -- some great, most just jumping on the bandwagon. But even the bad groups (the bandwagon jumpers) introduced kids in the 60's to good soul songs. If you had an enquiring mind (no tinternet then), you could search out the original versions & discover soul acts you hadn't previously heard of.

Even worse than the crap groups amongst the throng that played R&B / soul were the British solo singers taking us for a ride ... Most times, many never even performed more than the odd soul song, the majority of their acts always being pure pop pap. But that hasn't stopped folk chasing (& paying £££ for) the old singles by them that they call N Soul. But those same folk that would buy Tammy St John, Barbara Ruskin, Carl King, Sandra Brown, etc 45's pass up getting many real soul gems coz they were recorded after 1979.

. . .   ELITISM + BLINKERED OPINION RULES I GUESS.

Hardly elitism for many to be protective of a scene that is fast becoming a parody of itself. As regarding the topic of tribute artists whether soul or not it's just not a lot of peoples thing, if that's blinkered it's everyones choice to like or not.

[Chalky]

9 hours ago, Benji said:

Funny you say that. Sorry to say but there are also many original artists that make a mockery of the tunes they recorded back in the 60s when they do a live gig nowadays.

I don’t disagree. But it’s theirs to make a mockery of. 

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

I don’t disagree. But it’s theirs to make a mockery of. 

They are also well into their old age, the voice isn't what it is.  These bands being discussed are allegedly in their prime if you like and still can't do it.

15 hours ago, Roburt said:

Good to know that the NS crowd have such open minds ... but then we know many are AVO ....

. . ..   American Version Only merchants.

99% of UK beat groups in the period 1963 to 1968 were just (basically) soul cover bands -- some great, most just jumping on the bandwagon. But even the bad groups (the bandwagon jumpers) introduced kids in the 60's to good soul songs. If you had an enquiring mind (no tinternet then), you could search out the original versions & discover soul acts you hadn't previously heard of.

Even worse than the crap groups amongst the throng that played R&B / soul were the British solo singers taking us for a ride ... Most times, many never even performed more than the odd soul song, the majority of their acts always being pure pop pap. But that hasn't stopped folk chasing (& paying £££ for) the old singles by them that they call N Soul. But those same folk that would buy Tammy St John, Barbara Ruskin, Carl King, Sandra Brown, etc 45's pass up getting many real soul gems coz they were recorded after 1979.

. . .   ELITISM + BLINKERED OPINION RULES I GUESS.

The scene is based on elitism and always has been elitist.  Blinkered?  Speak for yourself, I, along with others who have commented buy music from the 60s to today, hardly blinkered.

[Twoshoes]

I up voted Benji's comment as it was something I thought myself and then found I was up voting Chalky's as well as I hadn't considered  as he says "it's their's to make a mockery of". Another lesson in listen to all sides of a discussion before coming to a conclusion.

    I went a couple of years ago to if my memory serves me right something called The Northern Soul Orchestra in Manchester. I have probably got the title wrong but it was compered by Richard Searling in a gold suit (what was he thinking). To be honest only went cos a mate had two spare tickets so it cost me nowt. The music was fine but to my ears some of the singing fell way short but the people were dancing in the aisles enjoying it far more than I did. I was left feeling very underwhelmed by it all. Hopefully the vocalists at the proms will deliver and we will all be pleasantly surprised.

   

[Hooker1951]

Somethings are better left unsaid, And Somethings are better left alone

ML,

[Steve G]

On 14/07/2023 at 07:33, Leicester Boy said:

Hardly elitism for many to be protective of a scene that is fast becoming a parody of itself. As regarding the topic of tribute artists whether soul or not it's just not a lot of peoples thing, if that's blinkered it's everyones choice to like or not.

A scene?

We live in parallel universes with multiple scenes. There is no scene as such to "save" anymore. Just multiple factions, ranging from large events to small, all doing their own thing and all with their own supporters. Numerous gigs each weekend all with their own DJs. Saw a clip this morning of hundreds of folk at a do walking distance away from us. Loads dancing to Benny Troy, I understand they were "scooterists".  Many of us don't go to their events, and apart from a very small minority they don't come to ours. Likewise many of us don't go to a lot of events with the same old re-treads going round and round every week. 

That's the world we live in. There is nothing to save, so just enjoy whatever you enjoy while you still can. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Steve G

[Leicester Boy]

15 minutes ago, Steve G said:

A scene?

We live in parallel universes with multiple scenes. There is no scene as such to "save" anymore. Just multiple factions, ranging from large events to small, all doing their own thing and all with their own supporters. Numerous gigs each weekend all with their own DJs. Saw a clip this morning of hundreds of folk at a do walking distance away from us. Loads dancing to Benny Troy, I understand they were "scooterists".  Many of us don't go to their events, and apart from a very small minority they don't come to ours. Likewise many of us don't go to a lot of events with the same old re-treads going round and round every week. 

That's the world we live in. There is nothing to save, so just enjoy whatever you enjoy while you still can. 

There are multiple different events but among the chaff there are excellent events that most definitely are worth saving and as for the"scene" even the wording has been argued and discussed multiple times on here so I should have known better. I certainly do enjoy what I enjoy and fortunately it doesn't include tribute acts, have fun . cheers

[Frankie Crocker]

About 20 years ago, I was staying in Berlin for a few days, drinking in the hotel bar night after night as you do, and a really catchy tune kept featuring on the radio. Off we went to a shopping mall to buy a CD featuring Frank Popp’s ‘Hip Teens’. Years later it turns out the 45 goes for good money and has been spun at some venues.

The Pepper Pots, a Spanish outfit have some really soulful tunes in their repertoire well worth seeking out.

The Ladykillers, a New Zealand quartet, do an excellent take on Paul Mauriat’s ‘Black Is Black’ - a live performance on YouTube is worth a listen if you can get past the chat.

There’s possibly more catchy tunes out there, ideal for the house rather than a public venue. They may not be Northern Soul as such but they tick a few boxes being similar in some ways eg tempo, melody, harmony etc

Forgive me for not posting any links but I’ve got to go and dress up for the Albert Hall...

[Paul-s]

4 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

About 20 years ago, I was staying in Berlin for a few days, drinking in the hotel bar night after night as you do, and a really catchy tune kept featuring on the radio. Off we went to a shopping mall to buy a CD featuring Frank Popp’s ‘Hip Teens’. Years later it turns out the 45 goes for good money and has been spun at some venues.

The Pepper Pots, a Spanish outfit have some really soulful tunes in their repertoire well worth seeking out.

The Ladykillers, a New Zealand quartet, do an excellent take on Paul Mauriat’s ‘Black Is Black’ - a live performance on YouTube is worth a listen if you can get past the chat.

There’s possibly more catchy tunes out there, ideal for the house rather than a public venue. They may not be Northern Soul as such but they tick a few boxes being similar in some ways eg tempo, melody, harmony etc

Forgive me for not posting any links but I’ve got to go and dress up for the Albert Hall...

The clue is in the name Frank 'Pop'...

A 4/4 beat does not make it Northern Soul (these bands rarely go MoDo on you)...for me the genre expresses greater complexity and nuance than these outfits that present a facade, via a clumsy beat and glossy smiles. To me, the lack of depth is glaringly audible and obvious, its a visceral felling: or lack of...

(only my very humble opinion of course). 

[Amsterdam Russ]

53 minutes ago, Paul-s said:

A 4/4 beat does not make it Northern Soul

Most Northern soul is on a 4/4 beat.

[JJMMWG DuPree]

Well, I got the replies that I was pretty much expecting, but I must admit I wasn't expecting some of the vitriol that came my way.  I'm roughly the same age as the musos that made a lot of these records, yet you simply assume I would make a hash of it because I haven't got that magic something that they had.

I would have been playing the music because I like it, most of the musicians on the original vinyl were just doing a job.

[Leicester Boy]

3 hours ago, JJMMWG DuPree said:

Well, I got the replies that I was pretty much expecting, but I must admit I wasn't expecting some of the vitriol that came my way.  I'm roughly the same age as the musos that made a lot of these records, yet you simply assume I would make a hash of it because I haven't got that magic something that they had.

I would have been playing the music because I like it, most of the musicians on the original vinyl were just doing a job.

Please don't regard different opinions as vitriol. It's a forum where there are often very different takes on many aspects of the given subject. certainly strong views sometimes but usually well policed by Mike and a different opinion has never bothered me, not when you think you are right.

[Roburt]

Reading lots of the above, I'd say there's loads of vitriol on view.

Guess things ain't changed that much since 1965 after all ... 

 

[Leicester Boy]

20 minutes ago, Roburt said:

Reading lots of the above, I'd say there's loads of vitriol on view.

Guess things ain't changed that much since 1965 after all ... 

 

It's a forum.

[Roburt]

AND my post is an opinion.

[Leicester Boy]

Just now, Roburt said:

AND my post is an opinion.

Which is a good idea in a FORUM.

[Roburt]

But why all the hate, surely a FORUM is supposed to be supportive of it's clientele, not dismissive. 

[Leicester Boy]

Just now, Roburt said:

But why all the hate, surely a FORUM is supposed to be supportive of it's clientele, not dismissive. 

You want hate go on my local football clubs forum and we all support the same team. Have a great day.

[Woodbutcher]

It's neither vitriol or hate , it's a series of replies to a question , most of which were exactly as the OP admits he was expecting , i.e. negative ... 

If you already know the answer to a question why bother asking it in the first place.

What with this , the cruise thread and the Proms debacle dominating the forum lately I can fully understand the mass exodus to FB that has occurred and continues ... 

[Paul-s]

On 15/07/2023 at 23:27, Amsterdam Russ said:

Most Northern soul is on a 4/4 beat.

Perhaps, but not all....depends which line of NS you're into I guess.

Also, there is a huge plethora (especially in the totally hammered Top 500), of what I can only refer to as 'Happy Clappy' NS (we can call it super 4/4 beat I guess).
That stuff that people mime to week in and week out, pulling hands to hearts and raising arms to the sky: the now empty gestures of yesteryear.
There are some great examples of this on Insta where some of the 'Insta(nt) Souls' dance to the 'Happy Clappy' tunes of the Top 500 in their kitchen or on a promenade, in a garden etc (usually facing camera), and fill the couple of super 4/4 minutes with these Northern Soul dance motifs that denote their  'super 4/4 Northern soulfulness'.
They are, as you say, most definitely 4/4...but for for what purpose I have no idea: forgive my stammer...

[Mark Bicknell]

Edited July 19, 2023 by Mark Bicknell

[Amsterdam Russ]

53 minutes ago, Paul-s said:

Perhaps, but not all....depends which line of NS you're into I guess.

There’s no “perhaps” about it. And that’s why I used the word “most” - because not all of it is. 

[Roburt]

5 hours ago, Mark Bicknell said:

As I live outside Oxford, I'll probably go to see this. Has it been performed anywhere yet & if so, what were the reviews like ?

[JJMMWG DuPree]

13 hours ago, Woodbutcher said:

It's neither vitriol or hate , it's a series of replies to a question , most of which were exactly as the OP admits he was expecting , i.e. negative ... 

If you already know the answer to a question why bother asking it in the first place.

 

Because someone had offered me money to do it, and to be offered monay to play Northern Soul I thought it might be worth taking a punt and coming on here and asking.  I thought I'd explained that in the OP.

[Knockerdj]

On 10/07/2023 at 18:21, Leicester Boy said:

Really not for me, have never ever understood tribute acts and would rather go to the dentist than see a ns tribute act, sorry.

My Dentist is black, but I've yet to hear him sing !

Edited July 20, 2023 by Knockerdj