Prophets/Martha Starr mock up acetate

[TimbaMerchant]

Hi all, I have an acetate I got from the late Randy Cozens, and would like to know if anyone knows anything about it. It was many years ago but I seem to recall him telling me a story about someone "borrowing" the masters from Motown and covering up the names of the artists, The Originals/Martha & The Vandellas. Any info welcome. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1swfTKvGCH6M_bCdy9xEUwi3yoQVgypA5/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Pa1Xh6hdc0pHRuej-j5vvuz0DEMllZBi/view?usp=sharing

[Chalky]

They came from tapes @Robbk sent over to Rod Shard at the beginning of the 80s.  Recording eventually leaked out and cuts done, this will no doubt be one.  Prophets is what the originals was covered up as.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Chalky

[Mal C]

While we are on the Originals, can anybody confirm this was / is an original acetate of this track, what kind of acatate it is, says master S/M, and maybe when it was discovered, how it got out so to speak?

Edited July 5, 2023 by Mal C

[Chalky]

31 minutes ago, Mal C said:

While we are on the Originals, can anybody confirm this was / is an original acetate of this track, what kind of acatate it is, says master S/M, and maybe when it was discovered, how it got out so to speak?

Yes it is. Richard S owns it now. It came in that batch of 60 odd acetates end of the 80s I think. 

[Trev Thomas]

4 hours ago, Chalky said:

Yes it is. Richard S owns it now. It came in that batch of 60 odd acetates end of the 80s I think. 

gary field sold it to richard searling round about 1992/3

[Robbk]

18 hours ago, Mal C said:

While we are on the Originals, can anybody confirm this was / is an original acetate of this track, what kind of acetate it is, says master S/M, and maybe when it was discovered, how it got out so to speak?

Yes, that's a real '66 Motown pressing.  I saw that very copy (and another).  I saw this one BEFORE "Suspicion" was written on it with a marker.This is the one Rod taped off me.  I liked it better than the other one (which most NS fans seem to like better.  No accounting for taste. 

[Robbk]

18 hours ago, Mal C said:

While we are on the Originals, can anybody confirm this was / is an original acetate of this track, what kind of acatate it is, says master S/M, and maybe when it was discovered, how it got out so to speak?

This is a Motown demo pressing, rather than the much more common Jobete Music "proof of ownership" acetates with the creme-coloured labels.  This was made for Quality Control listening, to decide about the desired background mix and decide which version was better for eventual release.  They made these listening records to avoid wearing down the master tapes, and it was easier to handle quickly, just popping it onto a turntable.

I first saw it in 1976.  It was removed from Motown's Vault by someone after we had moved on to Airwave Records.  I think it was 1988 or '89.  That large batch of acetates went on auction around 1990, if I remember correctly.  I was surprised that people were just lifting records out of there. 

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Robbk

[Mal C]

Thankns for explaining all that Robb good to know about the desired background mixing on these, Id have guessed that,  but have another question around 'versions'. 

I have three in my i-Tunes Library, it seems this track has been cut up, digitally I mean many times, its actually hard to say how, what you have said connects to which acetate.

I have,

1/ The Originals - Suspicion released on The Motown Sound 7" Box Set : Rare and Unreleased Vinyl, sounds very thin to my ears, not much bass on this recording. Time (3:09).

2/ (version 1 - alternate mix) released on the CD "This Is Northern Soul! The Motown Sound - Volume 2" the pair of CD's that came out in the mid to late 9ts, very BIG at the time, and sounds allot more rounded and bouncy, lots of bass! Time (3:02).

3/ And finally an Alt mix, thats just what Ive called it, which sounds like its been taken from a live taped session, mp3 below for reference...Time (1:56), just slow fades at the end. Sounds like somebody has just dialed everything out bar vocals and some percussion at the mixing desk.

Would you take a stab at which is what? if you know what I mean.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Mal C

[Chalky]

32 minutes ago, Robbk said:

This is a Motown demo pressing, rather than the much more common Jobete Music "proof of ownership" acetates with the creme-coloured labels.  This was made for Quality Control listening, to decide about the desired background mix and decide which version was better for eventual release.  They made these listening records to avoid wearing down the master tapes, and it was easier to handle quickly, just popping it onto a turntable.

I first saw it in 1976.  It was removed from Motown's Vault by someone after we had moved on to Airwave Records.  I think it was 1988 or '89.  That large batch of acetates went on auction around 1990, if I remember correctly.  I was surprised that people were just lifting records out of there. 

 

1989 around the time of the first Yarmouth weekender

8 minutes ago, Mal C said:

Thankns for explaining all that Robb good to know about the desired background mixing on these, Id have guessed that,  but have another question around 'versions'. 

I have three in my i-Tunes Library, it seems this track has been cut up, digitally I mean many times, its actually hard to say how, what your listening to connects to which acetate / tape you have mentioned.

I have,

1/ The Originals - Suspicion released on The Motown Sound 7" Box Set : Rare and Unreleased Vinyl, sounds very thin to my ears, not much bass on this recording.

2/ (version 1 - alternate mix) released on the CD "This Is Northern Soul! The Motown Sound - Volume 2" the pair of CD's that came out in the mid to late 9ts, very BIG at the time, and sounds allot more rounded and bouncy, lots of bass!

3/ And finally an Alt mix, thats just what Ive called it, which sounds like its been taken from a live taped session, mp3 below for reference...

Would you take a stab at which is what? if you know what I mean.

 

If you listen to the one on my website, Dave Withers section, that is the one that first came over on Robb’s tape.  The acetate you have pictured is a different vocalist and faster

[Mick Holdsworth]

Just wondering, which Martha Starr are we referring to, as per title "Prophets/Martha Starr mock up acetate" ?

 

[TimbaMerchant]

17 minutes ago, Mick Holdsworth said:

Just wondering, which Martha Starr are we referring to, as per title "Prophets/Martha Starr mock up acetate" ?

 

It's Martha & The Vandellas, Spellbound.

[Mick Holdsworth]

Okay, so that's Martha Reeves. I take it that is on the other side of the "Prophets" image you posted a link to on the opening post.

Thanks

[Chalky]

22 hours ago, Mal C said:

While we are on the Originals, can anybody confirm this was / is an original acetate of this track, what kind of acatate it is, says master S/M, and maybe when it was discovered, how it got out so to speak?

I think? This is the one from the above acetate

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Chalky

[Mal C]

Yep, agree,  I reckon that is the above acetate scan, so Suspicion (version 1 - alternate mix).

and this one is the other mix

Edited July 6, 2023 by Mal C

[TimbaMerchant]

8 minutes ago, Mal C said:

Yep, agree,  I reckon that is the above acetate scan, so Suspicion (version 1 - alternate mix).

and this one is the other mix

I don't have my player hooked up atm so can't check, but this version sounds most like I remember "The Prophets." The vocal on Chalky's youtube link is different for starters.

 

Mick Holdsworth

"I take it that is on the other side of the "Prophets" image you posted a link to on the opening post."

Exactly.

[Chalky]

12 minutes ago, Mal C said:

Yep, agree,  I reckon that is the above acetate scan, so Suspicion (version 1 - alternate mix).

and this one is the other mix

There are tow takes of this one if I remember rightly, slightly different openings, this is the one on Robb’s tapes. 

[The Yank]

6 hours ago, Mal C said:

 

3/ And finally an Alt mix, thats just what Ive called it, which sounds like its been taken from a live taped session, mp3 below for reference...Time (1:56), just slow fades at the end. Sounds like somebody has just dialed everything out bar vocals and some percussion at the mixing desk.

Would you take a stab at which is what? if you know what I mean.

 

     Is version #3 , the song that was recut in 1971 ? That track sounds it was done much later than '66.

     Also, where does "Baby Have Mercy On Me" fit in? I know the Don't Forget The Motor City has it listed as an alternative title to "Suspicion" but, does a version exist with the "Baby Have Mercy On Me" lyrics ?

 

[Dave Pinch]

On 05/07/2023 at 14:52, Chalky said:

Yes it is. Richard S owns it now. It came in that batch of 60 odd acetates end of the 80s I think. 

that was on one of John Manship`s old paper auctions very early 90`s... not sure if Gary Fields won it then sold it to Richard or whether it quickly changed hands a time or two before settling with Richard

[Chalky]

43 minutes ago, Dave Pinch said:

that was on one of John Manship`s old paper auctions very early 90`s... not sure if Gary Fields won it then sold it to Richard or whether it quickly changed hands a time or two before settling with Richard

It was 89 first Yarmouth time, maybe 90 but no later. Pretty sure it went to Gary. He had it and sold it to Richard. 

1 hour ago, The Yank said:

     Is version #3 , the song that was recut in 1971 ? That track sounds it was done much later than '66.

     Also, where does "Baby Have Mercy On Me" fit in? I know the Don't Forget The Motor City has it listed as an alternative title to "Suspicion" but, does a version exist with the "Baby Have Mercy On Me" lyrics ?

 

There are a couple of early 70s takes. Half a dozen or so takes in all. The BHMOM is just on that acetate and I’ve never heard it sung in any take. 

[Trev Thomas]

1 minute ago, Chalky said:

It was 89 first Yarmouth time, maybe 90 but no later. Pretty sure it went to Gary. He had it and sold it to Richard. 

gary bought it direct off manship, left it at my house for a couple of months then moved it on to searling would have been around 1990 / 91

[Simon T]

Which comp did the instrumental come out on?

[Chalky]

Previous topic…there was 63 acetates and I’m sure it was 89

 

[Dave Pinch]

3 hours ago, Trev Thomas said:

gary bought it direct off manship, left it at my house for a couple of months then moved it on to searling would have been around 1990 / 91

1990 sounds about right trev.. but it was defo on mannys auctions tho i cant recall the suspicion blurb written on it..unless of course manny had 2 copies. still got all tho lists in bin liners in mi dads loft

Edited July 6, 2023 by Dave Pinch

[Simon T]

 in the last 30 seconds

1.       Darling - original take (no pun intended)

2.       My daring, darling, darling, my darling – different vocalist

3.       My daring, darling, darling, my darling – different instrumentation, funky guitar + organ.   2’s vocal over dubbed.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Simon T

[Trev Thomas]

3 hours ago, Dave Pinch said:

1990 sounds about right trev.. but it was defo on mannys auctions tho i cant recall the suspicion blurb written on it..unless of course manny had 2 copies. still got all tho lists in bin liners in mi dads loft

it was on his auction, but gary made john an offer he couldn't refuse , so the auction didn't run it's course, gary also bought robby lawson at the same time which also lived with me, for a couple of months before he moved it on

[Robbk]

On 06/07/2023 at 08:30, The Yank said:

     Is version #3 , the song that was recut in 1971 ? That track sounds it was done much later than '66.

     Also, where does "Baby Have Mercy On Me" fit in? I know the Don't Forget (1)The Motor City has it listed as an alternative title to "Suspicion" but,

(2) does a version exist with the "Baby Have Mercy On Me" lyrics ?

 

(1) Yes, it was an alternate title, which was written on a creme-coloured label on a Jobete Music "proof-of-ownership" acetate pressing from 1965. 

(2) I've never heard of, nor seen a pressing with a recording which contained the words "Baby Have Mercy On Me" (nor have I heard those words used in a tape version).  I think that title was just a "guess" at the title for a tape that no label and had several songs on it, and so, that "title" was transferred over to a "proof of ownership" acetate.  Once that error was found out, another "proof of ownership" acetate was pressed up (as I have seen at least one, if not two of those, with "Suspicion" as the title- one using the proper red typed ink, and the other, in normal black ink (another error?)).

It's not that Motown's staff was so inept that they made hundreds of record-keeping errors during 1964-68.  It was because of the unbelievable amount of recording activity that was going on 24-hours a day in The Snakepit, and in 1966, adding Golden World's studio.  With that mountain of paper record keeping to handle in such a short period, and such a rush to get new product heard and reviewed, and decisions made on releases, and recordings pressed up and shipped to distributors, it's no wonder that a couple hundred errors were made. In fact, in some ways, it seems a bit surprising that they didn't make significantly more.

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Robbk

[Robbk]

On 06/07/2023 at 10:49, Chalky said:

Previous topic…there was 63 acetates and I’m sure it was 89

 

So, it seems Simon went back to Motown to buy more "lifted" records or just innocently get new tape recordings from employees there, even after Tom left, and sell them for play on The Northern scene.  So, that means that those carvers sold to DJs may have been two taping generations away from the master tapes.  Yes, I also remember seeing The Four Tops' Workshop Jazz mock-up LP jacket with an LP inside.  Maybe that was a 10-incher.  I don't remember.  The jacket had a photo of them, in a Platters' crooning style pose, with their right hands reaching out into the air.  I would have bought that when it came out, for sure.  I also saw tapes with those recordings, and acetates for most of those cuts.

[Hitsville Chalky]

Ive got a interview with Bill Randle with CP Spencer talking about this Bill mentions the title Baby Have Mercy on Me which CP replies regarding it  ,  Im sure Micky Nolds posted on his blog page  pcrl radio broadcast

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Hitsville Chalky said:

Ive got a interview with Bill Randle with CP Spencer talking about this Bill mentions the title Baby Have Mercy on Me which CP replies regarding it  ,  Im sure Micky Nolds posted on his blog page  pcrl radio broadcast

Here is Micky's page but can't see their link to listen?  I know some have been removed.

[Hitsville Chalky]

Hi mate possible it could had been removed , i will see if Micky will upload it for you , i have it on a old tape cassette what he first used to do 

[Chalky]

18 minutes ago, Hitsville Chalky said:

Hi mate possible it could had been removed , i will see if Micky will upload it for you , i have it on a old tape cassette what he first used to do 

Mickey is sending it me on a cd, if he allows I will upload it

 

[Robbk]

7 hours ago, Chalky said:

Mickey is sending it me on a cd, if he allows I will upload it

 

I look forward to hearing what he said.

[Hitsville Chalky]

20 hours ago, Chalky said:

Mickey is sending it me on a cd, if he allows I will upload it

 

thats great news mate , ive not listened to it for yrs i recall the title track bill says to CP baby have mercy on me etc

[purist]

Not sure which year but on one trip to the US I stumbled across some info in a book shop that led to me sending for a copy of Reg Bartletts extremely heavy book - Motown master numbers, basically just a list of the numbers Motown used and not the goldmine of info that I had hoped (cost a fortune, for the book and even more for the postage )  In it were scans of many unusual acetates etc, including the Baby Have Mercy scan. I photocopied it for various friends to stick on their Advance 45's (they were obvious photocopies so nobody was trying to fool anyone) although I never did one for myself 
Having misplaced it for many years I recently found that book, seem to think it cost me £100ish back when that was more than it is today (think early 90's?) 

 

[Chalky]

Mixcloud won't allow the upload of CP Spencer interview as too many tracks buy the same artist, think you are only allowed 5 and they have to be split.  Will look at some other way of uploading

[Chalky]

Here is the interview Bill did Wirth CP Spencer.

https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/karlwhite/episodes/2023-07-18T09_31_09-07_00

[Hitsville Chalky]

34 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Here is the interview Bill did Wirth CP Spencer.

https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/karlwhite/episodes/2023-07-18T09_31_09-07_00

brill mate 

[Hitsville Chalky]

i notice know thanks to chalks upload cp says Suspicion insead of baby have mercy 

[Robbk]

Thanks for the link.  It was interesting to hear him talk about his whole career.  I would have liked them to play a couple Five Jets songs, and a couple of CP's Big Top cuts, as well as his Exit cuts and also "Green Grow The Lilacs.  But, at least they played my favourite version of "Suspicion".