Seven Souls - I still Love you blank ID help

[Agrail]

This is a one sided disk (Tatty) turned up a a collection the other week. The play slide is The seven souls - I still Love you. I thought it was a carver but the play side has the correct stamped Matrix ? Anyone come across this or knows the story?

 

[Solidsoul]

Interesting that it has the machine stamp. Has it got any other markings in the run out groove?

[Mick Holdsworth]

Looks like an early tester, just to check out the machine settings etc. Strange there is no B side,, unless it is a blank plate B side ??

[Agrail]

31 minutes ago, Solidsoul said:

Interesting that it has the machine stamp. Has it got any other markings in the run out groove?

Not that I can See

 

7 minutes ago, Mick Holdsworth said:

unless it is a blank plate B side ??

The matrix is correct for the Okeh B side I still love you. What should be the A side is blank  / unrecorded.

[Mick Holdsworth]

7 minutes ago, Agrail said:

The matrix is correct for the Okeh B side I still love you. What should be the A side is blank  / unrecorded.

Yes, forgot ISLY was a B side.

So tha A side is missing, and they used a blank instead, which would make sense, as there wouldn't be any stampings etc.

Nice one.

[Rick Scott]

An odd one this thought so have dug my large 45 original out of my box for a look at the run out.

Scratched ZSP - 117416 followed by scratched 1B 0n 'I still love' you side.

scratched ZSP- 117415 followed by  scratched  1B on 'I'm no stranger' side.

 

***just as an extra bit of info i noticed  while doing this an additional J on the record label for 'I'm no stranger' side

as in JZSP-117415 where as 'I Still love you' label is ZSP-117416*** Checked another OKEH single and didn't have an extra letter so not sure why that should be.*** 

[Rick Scott]

while the first question being answered anyone any thoughts on the extra letter on this single

[Agrail]

19 minutes ago, Rick Scott said:

Scratched ZSP - 117416

So the original is etched not stamped?

[Solidsoul]

38 minutes ago, Agrail said:

So the original is etched not stamped?

My original has numbers etched not stamped.

Also why would they press the flip side and not the designated A side?

[Agrail]

9 minutes ago, Solidsoul said:

Also why would they press the flip side and not the designated A side?

Unless the Test Press was x2 single sided I have no idea. The fact the originals have etched Matrix and this is stamped bungs further confusion at this one.

[Sutty]

The label would usually get a double sided test pressing(s) for approval. If there was a problem with the b-side they could have made a new metal stamper just for that side and pressed for approval, then dumped the original metal stamper for that side. The etchings would be the same as they are etched in at the cutting stage, which is what the metal stampers are made from. The metal stamper has its own stamp which is the stamp of the pressing plant. Both the etching and the stamper end up on the run out, so you can identify the cut and the plant.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Sutty
Typo

[Agrail]

6 minutes ago, Sutty said:

The etchings would be the same as they are etched in at the cutting stage, which is what the metal stampers are made from.

Absolutely agree. I'm none the wiser on what this copy is with a stamped matrix ? later pressing?

[Chalky]

2 hours ago, Rick Scott said:

An odd one this thought so have dug my large 45 original out of my box for a look at the run out.

Scratched ZSP - 117416 followed by scratched 1B 0n 'I still love' you side.

scratched ZSP- 117415 followed by  scratched  1B on 'I'm no stranger' side.

 

***just as an extra bit of info i noticed  while doing this an additional J on the record label for 'I'm no stranger' side

as in JZSP-117415 where as 'I Still love you' label is ZSP-117416*** Checked another OKEH single and didn't have an extra letter so not sure why that should be.*** 

The J is usually to denote a demo?

[Sutty]

4 hours ago, Agrail said:

Absolutely agree. I'm none the wiser on what this copy is with a stamped matrix ? later pressing?

Or an earlier one before it got issued

[Chalky]

Maybe it is an elaborate fake, someone going to the trouble of a stamp?

It is certainly a strange one. 

[Agrail]

19 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Maybe it is an elaborate fake

 I'd guess an attempt at labels would be easier than having a stamped mother made up?  Perhaps there was a planned re and this was a tester? It's been done a few times but I'm not sure if they are all etched or if any have stamped matrix?

[Chalky]

1 minute ago, Agrail said:

 I'd guess an attempt at labels would be easier than having a stamped mother made up?  Perhaps there was a planned re and this was a tester? It's been done a few times but I'm not sure if they are all etched or if any have stamped matrix?

Is it a raised stamp or indented

[45cellar]

6 hours ago, Rick Scott said:

while the first question being answered anyone any thoughts on the extra letter on this single

JZSP Normally in the DEMO deadwax and printed on the Demo label.

I have found instances where certain Stock Copies have this too.

I have copies of Soul A Go Go on a Stock Copy with this.

ZSP on the Label

This one has JZSP Stamped in the deadwax BOTH sides.

-------------------------------------------------------------

JZSP on the Label

This one has ZSP Stamped in the deadwax BOTH sides.

[Tlscapital]

8 hours ago, Agrail said:

This is a one sided disk (Tatty) turned up a a collection the other week. The play slide is The seven souls - I still Love you. I thought it was a carver but the play side has the correct stamped Matrix ? Anyone come across this or knows the story?

 

Is this a vinyl or a styrene ? Just to know better. FWIW there are few releases to got both vinyl and styrene pressings.

To my eyes this doesn't like your typical cheap bootleg pressing. It has a clean groove and even the matrix looks good.

Some Okeh catalog numbers got pressed with both 'hand scratched in' run-out matrix and 'machined stamp' ones.

And some were pressed and repressed to supply public demand presenting each faint variations.

What could have been the purpose of this unlabeled S/S release ? A Larry Williams "situation" maybe ?

As Larry produced the 'A' side 'I'm no stranger' but the flip was not !!! Then what ? Who produced that 'I still love you' ?

Could that 'B' side have to go through different choices of songs, takes and mixes on their 'own' funds before release ?

Such an odd unlabeled S/S press (the cheapest as possible) for "tool" serving as 'test press' could do just that IMHO.

[Solidsoul]

12 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Is this a vinyl or a styrene ? Just to know better. FWIW there are few releases to got both vinyl and styrene pressings.

To my eyes this doesn't like your typical cheap bootleg pressing. It has a clean groove and even the matrix looks good.

Some Okeh catalog numbers got pressed with both 'hand scratched in' run-out matrix and 'machined stamp' ones.

And some were pressed and repressed to supply public demand presenting each faint variations.

What could have been the purpose of this unlabeled S/S release ? A Larry Williams "situation" maybe ?

As Larry produced the 'A' side 'I'm no stranger' but the flip was not !!! Then what ? Who produced that 'I still love you' ?

Could that 'B' side have to go through different choices of songs, takes and mixes on their 'own' funds before release ?

Such an odd unlabeled S/S press (the cheapest as possible) for "tool" serving as 'test press' could do just that IMHO.

Looks good quality vinyl to me. A little like an RCA press. That's why I asked if it had any other markings like an R, I or H. 

[Rick Scott]

5 hours ago, Chalky said:

The J is usually to denote a demo?

Mines is an issue Chalky, Should have mentioned that, isn't record collecting wonderful ?

Going back to the one sided disk each number/letter looks like it was hand stamped on individually

as it is not uniform, not level, but does look raised. Just does not look right to me at all so none the wiser

and am certainly no expert, some wiser people than me on here.

 

[Solidsoul]

4 minutes ago, Rick Scott said:

 

Going back to the one sided disk each number/letter looks like it was hand stamped on individually

as it is not uniform, not level, but does look raised. Just does not look right to me at all so none the wiser.

 

Yes the letters/stamp does look roughly done. 

[Agrail]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

Is it a raised stamp or indented

Looks raised

 

30 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Is this a vinyl or a styrene

Vinyl

 

8 minutes ago, Rick Scott said:

it is not uniform, not level

True or sloppy setting?

[Chalky]

6 minutes ago, Agrail said:

Looks raised

Can’t you feel it? If its lumpy then its raised

16 minutes ago, Rick Scott said:

Mines is an issue Chalky, Should have mentioned that, isn't record collecting wonderful ?

Going back to the one sided disk each number/letter looks like it was hand stamped on individually

as it is not uniform, not level, but does look raised. Just does not look right to me at all so none the wiser

and am certainly no expert, some wiser people than me on here.

 

The stamp doesn’t look quite right to me but hard to tell from a picture

[Tlscapital]

Exactly. How well aligned or indented or raised out of the surface does this one looks when closed-up then ?

 

[Rick Scott]

6 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Exactly. How well aligned or indented or raised out of the surface does this one looks when closed-up then ?

well there you go, solves that one  so it is all as clear as mud, thank you for that one

Thank You TIscapital 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Rick Scott
correction

[Tlscapital]

28 minutes ago, Rick Scott said:

well there you go, solves that one  so it is all as clear as mud, thank you for that one

Thank You TIscapital 

Whatever pleases. FWIW I prefer to find out what that press is ; a real deal or just some one-off "carver" of some sort. Eliminating false leads. Here this shows the "alignement" of the 'square' blocs in the rounded run out groove forces some odd uneven 'typo' blocs "re-alignement" to fit them in and between the closing in run-out groove.

Making this evidently not a criteria to take into account to make this unlabeled S/S press dodgy. Purely based on such irrelevant fact after all. More so in comparison (mud ?). And in regard of the "optic" fooling of the 'machined printed' being raised instead of indented it's a bit over the top really. As this would imply some crazy work to achieve that IMU...

Edited June 14, 2023 by Tlscapital

[Solidsoul]

9 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

 And in regard of the "optic" fooling of the 'machined printed' being raised instead of indented it's a bit over the top really. As this would imply some crazy work to achieve that IMU...

It is raised print because the negative pressing plate was stamped. So when the negative pressing plate is used, the positive pressing has the letters opposite, so they are raised!

Edited June 15, 2023 by Solidsoul

[Tlscapital]

16 minutes ago, Solidsoul said:

It is raised print because the negative pressing plate was stamped. So when the negative pressing plate is used, the positive pressing has the letters opposite, so they are raised!

But then if you imply that eithe the "pressing" plate or a 'negative' was made of it it should be "mirrored" too. Readable from right to left...

As I said to have it raised like 'carved out' instead of 'carved in' as a copy will make it very complicated or impossible. Then why that ? 

[Chalky]

The master is stamped or etched, from that the mother is made and from the mother the stamper

[Amsterdam Russ]

I see no reason to believe this is not a genuine test press. 

It's been suggested that the 'wonky' (my word) stamped matrix number is suspicious, and indeed the fact the matrix is stamped rather than etched raises further concerns. However, if you look at the image below of the runout on Billy Butler's 'Found true love', you can clearly see that a) it is stamped, and b) it's wonky.

In fact, it's almost identically wonky on both horizontal and vertical planes as the test press. It's as good as a fingerprint at a crime scene.

Beyond the similar wonkiness, we also know as fact from this scan, the one uploaded earlier, and relevant comments, that OKeh 45s did have stamps, thus the stamp on the test press isn't without precedent.

The scan of The Vibrations 'Soul a-go-go' is from 1966, and is stamped. My copy of The Vibrations 'Together'/'Come to yourself' is also stamped and was released in 1967 (and prefixed with a 'J, as is my 1965 copy of their 'Finding out the hard way'). The Seven Souls is from 1967. Further:

The label release number of The Seven Souls is 4-7289.

The label release number of The Vibrations 'Together'/'Come to yourself' is 4-7297, thus indicating it was released after the Seven Souls.

My thinking is that OKeh used more than one pressing plant at which 45s at one would have a stamped matrix and at the other plant (presuming there were only two) the matrix was etched in.

Alternatively, there could have been a period of transition where the label was moving the pressing of material from one plant to another - but did a phased move over a period of time. Possibly 'Pressing plant A' was scheduled to press The Seven Souls, but at the last minute it went to 'Pressing plant B'.

What is puzzling is the fact that the test press is single-sided. It could simply have been a quality control issue where someone at either the plant or the label though it worth double checking the sound fidelity of the B-side and requested a 'from the press' cut of it. It could be that single-sided test presses were not uncommon when coming from Plant A or Plant B. That said, one would have anticipated more single-sided test presses from OKeh to have surfaced.

Regardless, we might never know the exact details, but to me all the info points to the disc being a genuine artefact, one that is highly unusual and possibly unique.

[45cellar]

The Seven Souls

Okeh 4-7289

117415

117416

Two numbers on we have The Triumphs I'm Coming To Your Rescue.

Okeh 4-7291

117423

117424

With 2 Different DEMO A sides for promotion.

Perhaps 2 different pressing plants involved at the time was the reason.

As already mentioned above. 

[45cellar]

Were these the only two tracks available for The Seven Souls or could it be a last minute change.

If so it could be the reason for the single sided press.

The numbers do follow each other though.

117415

117416

Quality Control possibly is the reason after all.

[Agrail]

The two plant idea is interesting, this would however mean two sets of stampers were made up. (One with etched and one with stamped matrix) This would have come with a cost at the time. Perhaps, if there were reason enough, that happened? As no one is coming forward with a demo or stock copy with a stamped matrix, it's at best an anomaly  or something else entirely?

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by Agrail

[Gaz T]

Anoraks corner has all the info on the  Colombia pressing matrix details 

https://www.anorakscorner.com/deadwax-matrix

I have a copy at the moment with the scratched matrix zsp 117116 but I swear the first copy I had in 90s was a machine stamped  45

that blank 45 looks like a genuine Columbia test press to me  

I would definitely bid on it if I saw it online 

 

 

[Chalky]

3 hours ago, Gaz T said:

 

that blank 45 looks like a genuine Columbia test press to me  

I would definitely bid on it if I saw it online 

 

 

But a test press is exactly the same as the actually issue/demo press but they usually have in house label unless blanks bought in. 

[Tlscapital]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

But a test press is exactly the same as the actually issue/demo press but they usually have in house label unless blanks bought in. 

Test-press if this is one... or is it a sole 'sample release' copy or what's often often called a pre-release ? Test-presses as you say actually aims to test the first pressings out of a pressing plant for quality control. So there you are right. Making this most likely a sample release or a pre-release of some sort. We could have been more specific on the term to use even though we don't know what we're dealing with.

And pre-releases (not like the 'Jamaican so called ones) can absolutely come from different pressing plants going through altogether another mastering job of their own. I know examples from the sixties up to this day where so called 'test-presses' have a totally different mastering job to the commercial releases coming from another pressing plant. That can be for the better in playback definition or not.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Tlscapital

[Chalky]

26 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Test-press if this is one... or is it a sole 'sample release' copy or what's often often called a pre-release ? Test-presses as you say actually aims to test the first pressings out of a pressing plant for quality control. So there you are right. Making this most likely a sample release or a pre-release of some sort. We could have been more specific.

And pre-releases (not like the 'Jamaican so called ones) can absolutely come from different pressing plants going through altogether another mastering job of their own. I know examples from the sixties up to this day where so called 'test-presses' have a totally different mastering job to the commercial releases for the better or for the worse.

Or a cock up in the process 

[Woodbutcher]

Just a test press to check the stamper for that particular side of the 45 surely , I would think that would be a not particularly unusual event at a metal mastering plant. 

[Chalky]

36 minutes ago, Woodbutcher said:

Just a test press to check the stamper for that particular side of the 45 surely , I would think that would be a not particularly unusual event at a metal mastering plant. 

This is further down the process than metal mastering.

At this stage which is clearly manufacture, a handful of test presses would be done but generally they are the complete disc, exactly the same as the actual finished product but with an in house or blank label. 

[Woodbutcher]

11 minutes ago, Chalky said:

This is further down the process than metal mastering.

At this stage which is clearly manufacture, a handful of test presses would be done but generally they are the complete disc, exactly the same as the actual finished product but with an in house or blank label. 

I would assume the quality control dept would perform a similar test before sending a stamper to a pressing plant ? 

Hence maybe the lack of pressing plant stamps present on the 45. 

Would seem odd to me to send something often hundreds of miles away before it was tested and potentially returned with all the associated rigamarole .

Edited June 17, 2023 by Woodbutcher

[Chalky]

8 minutes ago, Woodbutcher said:

I would assume the quality control dept would perform a similar test before sending a stamper to a pressing plant ? 

Hence maybe the lack of pressing plant stamps present on the 45. 

Would seem odd to me to send something often hundreds of miles away before it was tested and potentially returned with all the associated rigamarole .

They would test the lacquers, they wouldn’t do the whole process. If the lacquer is good the rest will but that is why a run of test presses is done. I have posted the full process step by step previously on here. 

[Chalky]

https://www.classic45s.com/why45s/process.html?fbclid=IwAR14LMhJHwozRe1SOY0pjzTsWr4r206tck0fPXRXO5MVQrD_ZfrEmgW5b6Y

[45cellar]

I still think Test Press.

Just wondering about a Canadian press as they are Vinyl and Stamped. Usually Canadian Epic for Okeh releases.

Either way a Test Press as vinyl also used at times in U.S.A. at Columbia.

[Tlscapital]

2 minutes ago, 45cellar said:

I still think Test Press.

Just wondering about a Canadian press as they are Vinyl and Stamped. Usually Canadian Epic for Okeh releases.

I think like you it's OG at least what ever sort of press it is supposed to be. For the Canadian theory I don't seem remember seeing the Canadian on Epic baring those USA groove run-out matrix... But could be proven wrong.

[Mgm 1251]

On 17/06/2023 at 12:54, Gaz T said:

Anoraks corner has all the info on the  Colombia pressing matrix details 

https://www.anorakscorner.com/deadwax-matrix

I have a copy at the moment with the scratched matrix zsp 117116 but I swear the first copy I had in 90s was a machine stamped  45

that blank 45 looks like a genuine Columbia test press to me  

I would definitely bid on it if I saw it online 

 

 

John Manship has one up for auction now........

Edited June 20, 2023 by Mgm 1251
Spelling

[Agrail]

8 minutes ago, Mgm 1251 said:

John Maship has one up for auction now.

Yes, I passed this one over to John who had some genuine insights into the initial Columbia QC on this run.

[Dean Rudland]

On 17/06/2023 at 19:12, Chalky said:

They would test the lacquers, they wouldn’t do the whole process. If the lacquer is good the rest will but that is why a run of test presses is done. I have posted the full process step by step previously on here. 

Chalky, when I worked at Fania I had access to the archive, and one sided test presses were done on a number of releases. They were the same as a two sided test pressing but split across two discs (at Fania they usually had generic pressing plant labels, sometimes written on, sometimes not). So I don't think the single sided TP is that unusual, although the lack of label is.

As I think you said Test Pressing are often done in low numbers - I do 5 for Acid Jazz - and very rarely more than twenty. So something like the above will be rare.

Oddly I found a single copy of The Seven Souls in the archive - used to work out the arrangements for 'Stranger' on Joe Bataan's soul album - sadly cracked all the way through. It was a shame because there was multiple copies of just about everything else covered on the album.

 

 

 

[Chalky]

47 minutes ago, Dean Rudland said:

Chalky, when I worked at Fania I had access to the archive, and one sided test presses were done on a number of releases. They were the same as a two sided test pressing but split across two discs (at Fania they usually had generic pressing plant labels, sometimes written on, sometimes not). So I don't think the single sided TP is that unusual, although the lack of label is.

As I think you said Test Pressing are often done in low numbers - I do 5 for Acid Jazz - and very rarely more than twenty. So something like the above will be rare.

Oddly I found a single copy of The Seven Souls in the archive - used to work out the arrangements for 'Stranger' on Joe Bataan's soul album - sadly cracked all the way through. It was a shame because there was multiple copies of just about everything else covered on the album.

 

 

 

Hi Dean. I have seen single sided myself but usually have a label. With this being stamped do you think it is probably out of another plant maybe or an early master? 

[Dean Rudland]

3 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Hi Dean. I have seen single sided myself but usually have a label. With this being stamped do you think it is probably out of another plant maybe or an early master? 

I think we have - and probably will always have -  too little information.

In the above do we know that the matrix is the same or different to the released record?