Northern Soul At The BBC Proms 2023

[Stateside]

I don't usually get drawn into debates about soul music as I think it's subjective.

I've always hated the term northern soul and would rather refer to my favourite genre as sixties or seventies rare soul, and I'm not part of any scene. I went to The Raven, Wigan, Blackpool and latterly the Orwell. 

The BBC proms was to me, a modern day effort to replicate that sound and given they probably weren't listening to the originals out of choice, before being asked to play them, they effectively "reverse engineered" them, and I think they made a pretty good job of it.

I don't thnk the BBC Orchestra are trying to be part of any scene.

[Roburt]

If folk keep saying they enjoyed this concert, then there's only one remedy ... Oulu will be sent round to their abode .. 

[Paul Collis]

I declined a ticket offered by my sister, a regular proms attendee.  Thought it would be awful.  Reading some of the comments on here, I decided to listen to the whole thing on BBC Sounds.  On the whole I thought they made a good job of it.  Largely faithful to the original recordings and the singers had some talent.  The commentary avoided most of the common embarrassments, when the modern media talks about “Northern Soul”.  Always liked Stuart Maconie’s work, and this does his reputation no harm.  On reflection, I think I probably should have accepted the ticket.

[Roburt]

As a guy who attended many niters & witnessed many OAO (Original Artists Only) performing their latest + older recordings .. AND ALL BEFORE (the term) NS was even invented ...  I can truthfully state that ...

... I hardly ever saw a singer who performed his songs in a way that was faithful to their original recording. Apart from the fact that the UK musicians backing them up were nothing like (in expertise & type / variety of instruments played) the original studio band, songs were always 'speeded up' to intensify the vibe & energy of the live performance.

It's only with the likes of Ady coming into the picture that acts were asked to try their very best to recreate the sound captured on the original track as committed to vinyl all those years before.

So in 66/67/68/69/ etc. you almost never got to witness a track being performed in a way that was faithful to the original recording. So to say the BBC's efforts were 'fake' is to totally miss the point.  

[Zoomsoulblue]

I hardly ever saw a singer who performed his songs in a way that was faithful to their original recording.   

Since 1975 - the two live acts who just blew me away in passion performance and sounding - close or better to the original recording was

Jnr Walker at St Ives All-nighter 76/77. & Edwin Starr various venues - however I was seriously speeding my nuts  off

[Rick Cooper]

Not my thing for various reasons but obviously it was an enjoyable event for lots of people so can't complain. What would be nice if some of original artists, producers, arrangers and musicians (or their families) were aware their work had such a prestigious airing. 

The Performing Rights Society should have collected a considerable amount of money, some of which should filter down to the songwriters. I'm sure they will be more than happy to receive payment after so long.

 

[Geeselad]

9 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

There is a jazz prom...

https://www.royalalberthall.com/tickets/proms/bbc-proms-2023/prom-23-nyo-jazz-usa-with-dee-dee-bridgewater/

Yeah and look who they got in to sing! A real legend.

[Amsterdam Russ]

5 minutes ago, Geeselad said:

Yeah and look who they got in to sing! A real legend.

There is a jazz prom - that's it. As for "Miles David's sketches of Spain", I think it rather flat. The only stand-out track being Saeta. Give me Coltrane's sublime Olé instead. Of course, each to their own. 

[Roburt]

8 hours ago, Rick Cooper said:

Not my thing for various reasons but obviously it was an enjoyable event for lots of people so can't complain. What would be nice if some of original artists, producers, arrangers and musicians (or their families) were aware their work had such a prestigious airing. 

The Performing Rights Society should have collected a considerable amount of money, some of which should filter down to the songwriters. I'm sure they will be more than happy to receive payment after so long.

 

I've been corresponding with Philly legend Earl Young a lot recently (he was just cruising around the Med as an 83rd birthday celebration). I informed him that "Hold Back The Night" was included in the concert and he was delighted. I forwarded bits about the concert to him & he was really intrigued & sad he couldn't attend. I'm hoping someone posts a clip of that part of the concert on youtube, so he can watch it (US residents can't utilise BBC iPlayer).   

I think the fact that Earl's group's hit dated from 1975 & yet Earl is already 83 years old might be a bit of a clue why no original artists were involved.

I did forward this clip to him ... a few folk at the concert ...

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Roburt

[Thinksmart]

Over the years, I've tried to separate the music from the 'scene' (whatever that now means) - we overlay a lot of emotional intensity around how we've enjoyed the music that wasn't intended in the songs. They stand in their own right and were/are enjoyed in many contexts - mostly I guess fleetingly on radio, then on vinyl for most. As I get older, it's just the songs that matter - the complexities and perspectives people have around the scene are 'theirs' but shouldn't detract from the music itself in my own enjoyment.

Over time some Soul songs are becoming the new standards, in part driven by the enthusiasm of soul fans and scenes as here.

I absolutely get that the underground, alternate way of life that Northern Soul offers is integral to the enjoyment of the music - for me that lasted until I was about 40, for some it carries on through life. Appreciation and dancing to this music has lasted six decades, it's bound to fragment.  We shouldn't try to find one unifying story through Northern Soul anymore, we're different communities drawn together by our appreciation of some songs and situations in which we enjoyed them. Beyond them, it's like trying to find one orthodoxy through blues, country, jazz or any other enduring music that evolves in form and appreciation.

It's okay for everyone to have differing perspectives around the BBC prom, to engage or not - we just need to each spend our time on that aspect of the music we enjoy. Anything else is waste of time as the clock ticks down inevitably.

 

 

[Paul-s]

14 hours ago, Zoomsoulblue said:

I hardly ever saw a singer who performed his songs in a way that was faithful to their original recording.   

Since 1975 - the two live acts who just blew me away in passion performance and sounding - close or better to the original recording was

Jnr Walker at St Ives All-nighter 76/77. & Edwin Starr various venues - however I was seriously speeding my nuts  off

Totally agree, I was at Junior Walker at St Ives and saw Edwin many times. I would add Eddie Holman and Popcorn Wylie at Stafford to that.....and speeding off my nuts of course...

[Shinehead]

 

Enjoyed most of the concert I listened at home but looking at the YouTube videos that was the best place , looked more like Manchester City's treble winning party and looks like they were giving away t shirts to the front row.

 

 

 

[Paul-s]

Heres the set list from the Proms.

To me its the usual, homogenised, parody of Northern Soul set list (it goes along with Baggy trousers, circle skirts and vests in terms of hackneyed motifs) that lazy producers or DJ's wheel out when they haven't got a clue or any real knowledge or experience of the scene or artists who have made it.

A set list that, for me,  lacks nuance, depth, understanding or any real care about music.

A google set list......"Alexa what is Northern soul" type thing: though i imagine that might be better than this somehow.

[Rick Cooper]

5 hours ago, Roburt said:

 

I think the fact that Earl's group's hit dated from 1975 & yet Earl is already 83 years old might be a bit of a clue why no original artists were involved.

..

 

Good to hear that you've told Earl Young that Hold Back The Night was in the show and his response, hopefully other people will let some of the other artists know they had their records featured. 

I realise all those involved in the original records are elderly or no longer with us so didn't suggest they should have taken part, just a hope that they, or their families, will be told of the concert.

[Tlscapital]

21 minutes ago, Paul-s said:

Thanks for that less painful overview of the 'playlist' of the gig as I couldn't really find the 'guts' to hear it all TBH. Now I can relate better to what is said about the 'final' selection and the discussions about it.

And it's true there's some good tunes In there. Not all for sure but few. Some good ones even if they're all overplayed records. But as a whole to represent what was emblematic of the BIG Wigan sounds I think not.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Tlscapital

[Magpie69]

I’m pretty sure that the event was about “Northern Soul”, not specifically Wigan. There were loads of venues playing what came to be known as NS long before the Casino (and post-Casino for that matter). Some on here seem to think what went down in Wigan tells the whole story. Ironically it was that very Wigan-centric view that gave rise to the much-mocked cliches of baggy trousers, vests, circle skirts etc.

[Joesoul55]

What a missed opportunity. Within the top 500 northern soul tracks of all time, there are some that are aptly named and some that have used classical music elements. As the Royal Albert hall is the renowned home of classical music in Britain, I would have included 'Bok to Bach', 'A lover's Concerto', 'I hear a symphony', 'Soul symphony' and even the lesser known track 'Till the end of time' by Joe Buckman which is based on Frédéric Chopin's Polonaise in A flat major, Op. 53, the "Polonaise héroique".

Wish I had attended as I thoroughly enjoyed the unique event, which in the main did justice to the music that I love from my youth to the present day.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Joesoul55

[Tlscapital]

6 minutes ago, Magpie69 said:

I’m pretty sure that the event was about “Northern Soul”, not specifically Wigan. There were loads of venues playing what came to be known as NS long before the Casino (and post-Casino for that matter). Some on here seem to think what went down in Wigan tells the whole story. Ironically it was that very Wigan-centric view that gave rise to the much-mocked cliches of baggy trousers, vests, circle skirts etc.

You're right. My bad. It's reading the Stuart Maconie story from the leaflet that left the Wigan 'imprint' in my mind... 

[Joesoul55]

Just in case, the date has not been posted, the BBC Proms are scheduled to broadcast the Northern soul event on Saturday 26th August on BBC Two

[Jessie Pinkman]

47 minutes ago, Paul-s said:

Heres the set list from the Proms.

To me its the usual, homogenised, parody of Northern Soul set list (it goes along with Baggy trousers, circle skirts and vests in terms of hackneyed motifs) that lazy producers or DJ's wheel out when they haven't got a clue or any real knowledge or experience of the scene or artists who have made it.

A set list that, for me,  lacks nuance, depth, understanding or any real care about music.

A google set list......"Alexa what is Northern soul" type thing: though i imagine that might be better than this somehow.

I'm pretty certain this list was posted up on here whilst the concert was in full swing.

I remember praying that "Temptations calling my name" is on the same level of excellence as the others that came before it.

I wasn't disappointed

[Paul-s]

32 minutes ago, Magpie69 said:

I’m pretty sure that the event was about “Northern Soul”, not specifically Wigan. There were loads of venues playing what came to be known as NS long before the Casino (and post-Casino for that matter). Some on here seem to think what went down in Wigan tells the whole story. Ironically it was that very Wigan-centric view that gave rise to the much-mocked cliches of baggy trousers, vests, circle skirts etc.

I totally agree. I was/am on the scene, including Wigan, which was formed of many great venues. Unfortunately, whenever documentaries, Proms, etc about NS are wheeled out, the makers take the same lazy route (via Wigan) in order to summarise an entire (complex scene). This is due to some people who have dined out (like Geldof on Live-aid) on the Wigan product(ion) since it closed and continue to push it as the be all and end all of the scene: even though these people never attended other venues or collected tunes beyond the Casino years. The makers of these events always head to this person(s) thinking they are the scene and its true historians: when nothing could be further from the truth.

Sadly, this Proms set list illustrates that, as does the discussion of it as a great occasion for Northern Soul fans. It's lazy, shoddy and aimed at 'cashing In' on a new demographic of those who never went or have returned after long absences (where they missed out on decades of incredible music: the scene didn't stop or wait for them).

So, to make them feel at home (in a historical sense), anthems rule and, like the National Anthem, this Historico-pastiche scene has 'Do I Love You' wheeled out on every possible "state' occasion, often weekly at some venues or several times a night. People sing along and act out yesteryear, but it lost its soulful context decades ago and comes across as an empty re-imagining, often by people who are imagining that they were there when they weren't. It's a perfect example of 'simulacra'  (likeness, semblance, a representation or imitation of a person or thing).

Anyway, these discussion are, or were, a huge part of the scene.
I personally miss those souls who have left us and who had strong opinions, they made the scene and their energy is missed. It was strong opinions that allowed us to create this scene, and i get bored of people saying, "don't be negative" or "for once Paul. let it be". There is a huge difference between 'critique' and 'criticism'. 

All opinions expressed are entirely my own and I do not represent the '(e)state of Northern Soul' .

Edited July 20, 2023 by Paul-s

[Jessie Pinkman]

1 hour ago, Paul-s said:

I totally agree. I was/am on the scene, including Wigan, which was formed of many great venues. Unfortunately, whenever documentaries, Proms, etc about NS are wheeled out, the makers take the same lazy route (via Wigan) in order to summarise an entire (complex scene). This is due to some people who have dined out (like Geldof on Live-aid) on the Wigan product(ion) since it closed and continue to push it as the be all and end all of the scene: even though these people never attended other venues or collected tunes beyond the Casino years. The makers of these events always head to this person(s) thinking they are the scene and its true historians: when nothing could be further from the truth.

Sadly, this Proms set list illustrates that, as does the discussion of it as a great occasion for Northern Soul fans. It's lazy, shoddy and aimed at 'cashing In' on a new demographic of those who never went or have returned after long absences (where they missed out on decades of incredible music: the scene didn't stop or wait for them).

So, to make them feel at home (in a historical sense), anthems rule and, like the National Anthem, this Historico-pastiche scene has 'Do I Love You' wheeled out on every possible "state' occasion, often weekly at some venues or several times a night. People sing along and act out yesteryear, but it lost its soulful context decades ago and comes across as an empty re-imagining, often by people who are imagining that they were there when they weren't. It's a perfect example of 'simulacra'  (likeness, semblance, a representation or imitation of a person or thing).

Anyway, these discussion are, or were, a huge part of the scene.
I personally miss those souls who have left us and who had strong opinions, they made the scene and their energy is missed. It was strong opinions that allowed us to create this scene, and i get bored of people saying, "don't be negative" or "for once Paul. let it be". There is a huge difference between 'critique' and 'criticism'. 

All opinions expressed are entirely my own and I do not represent the '(e)state of Northern Soul' .

Paul, Didn't you do a play "Once upon a time in Wigan"

Why Wigan

[Woodbutcher]

I'm sticking the whole affair in the same box with the Jubilee NS float ... and burying it in the far corner of the garden hopefully never to be seen again.

One word sums it all up for me  ... Embarrassing.

[Roburt]

4 hours ago, Paul-s said:

Heres the set list from the Proms.

To me its the usual, homogenised, parody of Northern Soul set list (it goes along with Baggy trousers, circle skirts and vests in terms of hackneyed motifs) that lazy producers or DJ's wheel out when they haven't got a clue or any real knowledge or experience of the scene or artists who have made it.

A set list that, for me,  lacks nuance, depth, understanding or any real care about music.

A google set list......"Alexa what is Northern soul" type thing: though i imagine that might be better than this somehow.

The songs included in the BBC concert were a very good selection IMHO. Of course, we could all have dropped a few & added others in BUT THEN we weren't asked to compile the selection.  

With regard to the 'free T-shirts handed out' comment ... NOT SO, the folk being filmed in those clips are the BRISTOL N SOUL POSSE (or whatever they term themselves). They're a well informed team & certainly seemed to enjoy the concert to the full.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Roburt

[Amsterdam Russ]

From the couple of YouTube vids I’ve seen, the Bristol Northern Soul posse appeared to be headed up by dancing girl Levana.

[Roburt]

Amsterdam Russ; you're correct.

[Kathryn Magson]

1 hour ago, Woodbutcher said:

I'm sticking the whole affair in the same box with the Jubilee NS float ... and burying it in the far corner of the garden hopefully never to be seen again.

One word sums it all up for me  ... Embarrassing.

I'll second that one - couldn't have put it better myself! 

[Kev Cane]

Paul represents what a lot of us on here think, yet he's the only one prepared to put his balls in the vice, so to speak.

Nostalgia is the buzz word, yet not fully representative of a massive chunk in the history of the genre. He's right, 90% of media or/and documentation of the scene, has been downright lazy and without proper research. We're sick of being tarred with the "Footsee, The Kid, You Don't know where your interests lie" brush, everything seems to hinge on the pre Wigan and Wigan era's. Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of awesome stuff came out of it, but, as with Proms, it is never represented. Things changed massively after that, and that's where the misrepresentation, laziness and clueless media perception and documentation is so apparent.

Each to there own I suppose, but from what I've seen and heard about it (Proms), it only serves to make me embarrassed when people say " oh, you're into Northern Soul aren't you " when the truth is, I, along with a lot more on here, absolutely love the music and scene that developed when the chaff was weeded out and it was allowed to move forward 

[Geeselad]

19 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

There is a jazz prom - that's it. As for "Miles David's sketches of Spain", I think it rather flat. The only stand-out track being Saeta. Give me Coltrane's sublime Olé instead. Of course, each to their own. 

I said it with tin hat in place, I am a fan, but not as knowledgeable as I want to be. Flamenco sketches is my favourite piece of music any genre, but it's the Coltrane section that really lifts it to another level. 

I think my point is actually this, Davis and be bop was about small groups, I was involved in a night recently and I related to the orchestra thing and thought, well I can't remember a single track played with strings. All small groups, perhaps a bit of brass, but all group based. It's just all a bit excessive to these ears, to rich and lacking rawness. So many of my favourite tracks have a sparse sound but do so much with it.

[Frankie Crocker]

6 hours ago, Paul-s said:

Heres the set list from the Proms.

To me its the usual, homogenised, parody of Northern Soul set list (it goes along with Baggy trousers, circle skirts and vests in terms of hackneyed motifs) that lazy producers or DJ's wheel out when they haven't got a clue or any real knowledge or experience of the scene or artists who have made it.

A set list that, for me,  lacks nuance, depth, understanding or any real care about music.

A google set list......"Alexa what is Northern soul" type thing: though i imagine that might be better than this somehow.

For the record, the tracks by Darrell Banks and Nolan Chance were not performed. That of course leaves an old-school playlist compiled by two people commissioned to derive a populist selection of catchy tunes - that the die-hard soul fans present, regular prom goers, tourists and assorted others seemed to engage with the music confirms Maconie did exceedingly well.

[Amsterdam Russ]

33 minutes ago, Geeselad said:

I said it with tin hat in place, I am a fan, but not as knowledgeable as I want to be. Flamenco sketches is my favourite piece of music any genre, but it's the Coltrane section that really lifts it to another level. 

I think my point is actually this, Davis and be bop was about small groups, I was involved in a night recently and I related to the orchestra thing and thought, well I can't remember a single track played with strings. All small groups, perhaps a bit of brass, but all group based. It's just all a bit excessive to these ears, to rich and lacking rawness. So many of my favourite tracks have a sparse sound but do so much with it.

I get your point.

Briefly back to the “Spanish”, and there is a huge relevancy to soul music - or “music of the soul” - I offer up one of my most favourite songs of any genre - composed at the turn of the last century by Spanish composer Manuel de Falla, and, in this instance, sung by legendary mezzo-soprano Marylin Horne in the 70s.

Music, of any genre - even that played by orchestras and in spite of some opinions here - can have soul. This, one of my three funeral records, has that “soul quality” in spades. Soul is where you feel it.

 

[Geeselad]

14 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

I get your point.

Briefly back to the “Spanish”, and there is a huge relevancy to soul music - or “music of the soul” - I offer up one of my most favourite songs of any genre - composed at the turn of the last century by Spanish composer Manuel de Falla, and, in this instance, sung by legendary mezzo-soprano Marylin Horne in the 70s.

Music, of any genre - even that played by orchestras and in spite of some opinions here - can have soul. This, one of my three funeral records, has that “soul quality” in spades. Soul is where you feel it.

 

Thanks for sharing that, from the opening bars I knew it was something special. Totally agree that many genres can have soul, but although it may have been played with technical gusto, did the BBC orchestra have the belief in the music that makes any music soulful?

[Simon T]

1 hour ago, Geeselad said:

well I can't remember a single track played with strings. All small groups, perhaps a bit of brass, but all group based. It's just all a bit excessive to these ears, to rich and lacking rawness.

"Sweetening"  was expensive back in the day.

[Kenb]

I’ve left all that stuff (like the Proms play list & it’s scene attachment) behind me for others to pick up on, and play in Benidorm . Don’t get me wrong, it’s not to be forgot. And I am protective of people taking the piss. But there has been / is…so much more exciting finds to be played/heard.

I think what I’m saying is nostalgia is OK but it relies on original experiences. Did many of those who attended the proms or support it have those. Does that matter? Well no it doesn’t matter really if they stick to an appreciation of the music arranged in that way. But please don’t shoehorn it back into nostalgia of the way it was first heard.

[Amsterdam Russ]

Someone here, I don’t recall whom, suggested members of such a celebrated body as the BBC concert orchestra were nothing more than factory workers going about their daily, mundane duties. No soul, no interest. Just journeymen. That’s rubbish. You don’t get to participate in that orchestra unless you are excellent, top quality - and you have both a comprehensive understanding of the music and a deep appreciation of how it needs to be played. They understood, and did it with fabulous gusto!

We will never again see the likes of that performance.

One thing that bugs me is that only one or two comments here refer to the original artists - and those who arranged, performed, sung, were involved - in the songs when they were released with such hope back in the day.

Rather than respect or celebrate the public acknowledgement of their work, some are entirely selfish: I don’t want their songs to be widely known - I want to keep them to myself. Celebrating their success (often after they’ve died) is a sell-out… for me. I want to keep the songs and the artists/writers/arrangers in the dark so that only I know them.

Every singer/writer/arranger/ - anyone who gets involved in the music business - sought fame, success and wealth. Sadly, there are people who would prefer it if that didn’t happen - just for their own self-interested sense of keeping great but not widely appreciated or slightly known music unavailable to a broader public, which was the entire aim of the tunes we like being recorded in the first instance.

Hey, I might even play your long forgotten record - but I’ll not acknowledge you and instead give you a made-up name - just so I can be seen as having secret ownership of what you created.

I want to keep your great song buried; I don’t want anybody else to know you made this; I want to keep you underground - just so I can show you off and play you as a trophy for me.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Amsterdam Russ
spelin n stuff

[Roburt]

QUOTE FROM ABOVE >> Someone here, I don’t recall whom, suggested members of such a celebrated body as the BBC concert orchestra were nothing more than factory workers going about their daily, mundane duties. No soul, no interest. Just journeymen. That’s rubbish. You don’t get to participate in that orchestra unless you are excellent, top quality - and you have both a comprehensive understanding of the music and a deep appreciation of how it needs to be played. They understood, and did it with fabulous gusto!

HOW TRUE. Many years ago, I got to spend a day with Johnny Pate. Johnny was a brilliant song writer, a great arranger, a fine orchestra conductor / leader & a dazzling producer. He worked alongside Curtis Mayfield & the like in the top Chicago studio for many years & he wouldn't have been able to do that unless he was really well respected. We chatted for ages and then it came to me that I knew nothing about Earl Jackson (Johnny P co-wrote "Soul Self Satisfaction" and ran the studio session). The 45 was released in October 68, so the track was most probably cut in August / September that year. Pate's main focus at the time was the Impressions and similar groups (the Mighty Marvelows, etc.) but he didn't seem to be super busy at that time.

I asked him about Earl & his recording session and the songs he cut. Johnny couldn't remember anything at all about the guy, the song or the session. He stated  I just used to go into the studio from 9 to 5 everyday and work, do whatever was called for each day. It was just my job. Even with that answer, I doubt anyone here would accuse him of being nothing more than factory worker.

[Tlscapital]

On 19/07/2023 at 17:34, Roburt said:

If folk keep saying they enjoyed this concert, then there's only one remedy ... Oulu will be sent round to their abode .. 

Even behind bars such hysteria phenomenon is not only an 'embarrassing' sight for the eye but can provoke serious 'ear bleed' damage... Poor Bobby.

[Tlscapital]

13 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Someone here, I don’t recall whom, suggested members of such a celebrated body as the BBC concert orchestra were nothing more than factory workers going about their daily, mundane duties. No soul, no interest. Just journeymen. That’s rubbish. You don’t get to participate in that orchestra unless you are excellent, top quality - and you have both a comprehensive understanding of the music and a deep appreciation of how it needs to be played. They understood, and did it with fabulous gusto!

We will never again see the likes of that performance.

One thing that bugs me is that only one or two comments here refer to the original artists - and those who arranged, performed, sung, were involved - in the songs when they were released with such hope back in the day.

Rather than respect or celebrate the public acknowledgement of their work, some are entirely selfish: I don’t want their songs to be widely known - I want to keep them to myself. Celebrating their success (often after they’ve died) is a sell-out… for me. I want to keep the songs and the artists/writers/arrangers in the dark so that only I know them.

Every singer/writer/arranger/ - anyone who gets involved in the music business - sought fame, success and wealth. Sadly, there are people who would prefer it if that didn’t happen - just for their own self-interested sense of keeping great but not widely appreciated or slightly known music unavailable to a broader public, which was the entire aim of the tunes we like being recorded in the first instance.

Hey, I might even play your long forgotten record - but I’ll not acknowledge you and instead give you a made-up name - just so I can be seen as having secret ownership of what you created.

I want to keep your great song buried; I don’t want anybody else to know you made this; I want to keep you underground - just so I can show you off and play you as a trophy for me.

Hi there Russ, can't find who posted such comments on here but I did quote the BBC for which I don't have much respect for. As this 'past façade' institution is now more than ever clearly on the lowdown profile dipping for their audimat score conjuring to mix a 'traditional conservative' pride mixed with a 'progressive' liberal sell-out thing.

Then as for the 'soul' of the people involved into that spectacle, show or circus I can't say if they are into 'soul music' or not, and never would have claimed so but I quoted the performance result as MUZAK. True to my ears. So a bit like my mum who's really into Vermeer (the fabulous Dutch painter) but can she paint like him ? This I seriously question.

Stating the serious lack of soul in the singer's performance as well. Never said that it was not a 'performance' to put together. But for example Celine Dion sings better the same way these singers sung not making her a soul singer still. And Rondo Veneziano did storm the charts in 1982 with their strings armada without impressing me all the same if ever.

Anyway these two points (one in regard of the BBC "pedigree" credential IMO and then the other 'soul' factor of that prom thing) I did were quoted separately as they are two different points not to be made as one if ever you were quoting me without being more specific About the performance achievement put up for the event I agree to that.

But what's exceptional about it ? Sorry but just the fact that they're covering a plethora of "Northern Soul" classics of records that I love and hate (sorry if I offend anyone on here but I really do - so sorry again for the strong word but it's my gut feeling) does not fulfill my curiosity more than Bruce Springsteen (not as bad now in comparison) for example...

And common let's not drag the original artists into this. Evidently any kind of recognition from their unachieved past success will be taken as a "prize" by them. Even Soft Cell, Phil Collins, Mick Jagger (how low do we have to go ?) did that to them... Don't start the 'emotive' hurt kitten' trigger here. We're talking about the 'Northern Soul' "thing" here.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Tlscapital

[Paul-s]

18 hours ago, Jessie Pinkman said:

Paul, Didn't you do a play "Once upon a time in Wigan"

Why Wigan

Because it was set in Wigan.

 

[Twoshoes]

I've enjoyed this thread and can agree and disagree with comments on both sides of the divide.I did enjoy the Prom but it wasn't until just now that I realised on what level. After playing recently bought contemporary soul I then played some 80's electronic pop which I collect in a small way, my guilty pleasure if you will. Now much as I like some of the electronic that's about it, I don't love it with a passion as I do all the different genres of soul that I collect.

  Hence as much as I enjoyed the prom it was with an open mind, I didn't expect it to be blown away by it and wasn't, they did it very well but for me it was what it was. Had I been there would I have been up dancing in the aisles , no, were all the vocals top notch,no. 

     Where I do feel slightly aggrieved if I am reading some of the adverse replies correctly is in some way my taste or respect for the legacy if you will is questioned, if that's the case I'll take my place on the naughty step next to some long standing members on here, who though I don't know them personally I have the upmost respect for. That said I also have have respect the detractors to, many who are far more knowledgeable than myself.

[Paul-s]

17 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

I get your point.

Briefly back to the “Spanish”, and there is a huge relevancy to soul music - or “music of the soul” - I offer up one of my most favourite songs of any genre - composed at the turn of the last century by Spanish composer Manuel de Falla, and, in this instance, sung by legendary mezzo-soprano Marylin Horne in the 70s.

Music, of any genre - even that played by orchestras and in spite of some opinions here - can have soul. This, one of my three funeral records, has that “soul quality” in spades. Soul is where you feel it.

 

I think 'soulful music' is not limited to 'Northern Soul' and my musical taste is very diverse.

But, the discussion is about a Proms event claiming to be 'Northern Soul', and many of us just didn't find the BBC representation of 'Northern Soul' either soulful or tasteful. Or, in fact, anything to do with Northern Soul (except in the song titles and advertising slogans).

It's just a difference of opinion: but it is in a very particular context.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Paul-s

[Stateside]

Now this is what happens when you put a new orchestral arrangement behind an original vocal and you have to ask the question, why bother. There's a whole album of this if you can bear it. This one has Mica Paris duetting with Jimmy.

 

[Kenb]

18 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Someone here, I don’t recall whom, suggested members of such a celebrated body as the BBC concert orchestra were nothing more than factory workers going about their daily, mundane duties. No soul, no interest. Just journeymen. That’s rubbish. You don’t get to participate in that orchestra unless you are excellent, top quality - and you have both a comprehensive understanding of the music and a deep appreciation of how it needs to be played. They understood, and did it with fabulous gusto!

We will never again see the likes of that performance.

One thing that bugs me is that only one or two comments here refer to the original artists - and those who arranged, performed, sung, were involved - in the songs when they were released with such hope back in the day.

Rather than respect or celebrate the public acknowledgement of their work, some are entirely selfish: I don’t want their songs to be widely known - I want to keep them to myself. Celebrating their success (often after they’ve died) is a sell-out… for me. I want to keep the songs and the artists/writers/arrangers in the dark so that only I know them.

Every singer/writer/arranger/ - anyone who gets involved in the music business - sought fame, success and wealth. Sadly, there are people who would prefer it if that didn’t happen - just for their own self-interested sense of keeping great but not widely appreciated or slightly known music unavailable to a broader public, which was the entire aim of the tunes we like being recorded in the first instance.

Hey, I might even play your long forgotten record - but I’ll not acknowledge you and instead give you a made-up name - just so I can be seen as having secret ownership of what you created.

I want to keep your great song buried; I don’t want anybody else to know you made this; I want to keep you underground - just so I can show you off and play you as a trophy for me.

 

 

 

 

Is this really the case Russ? 

"I don’t want their songs to be widely known - I want to keep them to myself.  I want to keep the songs and the artists/writers/arrangers in the dark so that only I know them. I want to keep your great song buried; I don’t want anybody else to know you made this; I want to keep you underground - just so I can show you off and play you as a trophy for me".

Or is it, people(some) just want to hear them the way they were recorded?

[Leicester Boy]

12 minutes ago, Kenb said:

Is this really the case Russ? 

"I don’t want their songs to be widely known - I want to keep them to myself.  I want to keep the songs and the artists/writers/arrangers in the dark so that only I know them. I want to keep your great song buried; I don’t want anybody else to know you made this; I want to keep you underground - just so I can show you off and play you as a trophy for me".

Or is it, people(some) just want to hear them the way they were recorded?

Last 4 lines says everything.

[Leicester Boy]

1 minute ago, Leicester Boy said:

Last 4 lines says everything.

3 lines

[Mal C]

20 hours ago, Geeselad said:

Thanks for sharing that, from the opening bars I knew it was something special. Totally agree that many genres can have soul, but although it may have been played with technical gusto, did the BBC orchestra have the belief in the music that makes any music soulful?

I mentioned / posted a clip of Grace Bumpry in Carmen reciently, the famous performance, not a single like, or comment... I feel vindicated!

[Jessie Pinkman]

2 hours ago, Leicester Boy said:

3 lines

Russ was being Ironic wasn't he, well that's how I read it because who covers up records nowadays. The post made me chuckle.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Jessie Pinkman

[Roburt]

RE: many of us just didn't find the BBC representation of 'Northern Soul' either soulful or tasteful. Or, in fact, anything to do with Northern Soul (except in the song titles and advertising slogans).

I think many on here must have selective memories ...

I went away from niters the entire period that Wigan was ruling the waves ... when I returned to the fold, I couldn't believe how much ABSOLUTE POP SHITE was now being called NORTHERN SOUL.

[Leicester Boy]

23 minutes ago, Roburt said:

RE: many of us just didn't find the BBC representation of 'Northern Soul' either soulful or tasteful. Or, in fact, anything to do with Northern Soul (except in the song titles and advertising slogans).

I think many on here must have selective memories ...

I went away from niters the entire period that Wigan was ruling the waves ... when I returned to the fold, I couldn't believe how much ABSOLUTE POP SHITE was now being called NORTHERN SOUL.

Long shot I know but how do you know the people who didn't like the proms also didn't like the absolute pop shite.

Me I'm in a little gang of my own because I didn't like the proms but liked some of the absolute pop shite.

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Roburt said:

RE: many of us just didn't find the BBC representation of 'Northern Soul' either soulful or tasteful. Or, in fact, anything to do with Northern Soul (except in the song titles and advertising slogans).

I think many on here must have selective memories ...

I went away from niters the entire period that Wigan was ruling the waves ... when I returned to the fold, I couldn't believe how much ABSOLUTE POP SHITE was now being called NORTHERN SOUL.

But as you well know you missed an absolute wealth of soulful material.  Neither was the scene confined to just Wigan as you seem to continuously suggest with some from that list from other venues.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Chalky