Ebay prices - crashing - Sign of what's to come ??

[Vadnochka]

Does anybody else see the fast reducing prices being achieved on ebay recently - even from major sellers - have a look at completed / sold listings 

Quality title 45's fetching much reduced final prices

Is it the general economic climate / cost of importing / temporary re-balance or long term re-set.

Ludicrous discogs prices ( always buy it now ) still causing sounds to stick for months, even years.

I'm not imagining this as I've been relentlessly tracking stuff for decades 

Give me your thoughts / observations

Steve

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Vadnochka

[Vadnochka]

Guitar Ray - just gone for $317 albeit scuffed etc but even so

[Sunnysoul]

But, on the other hand,  ridiculous amounts being paid for sweet / deep / low rider records ...

[Chalky]

4 hours ago, Vadnochka said:

Guitar Ray - just gone for $317 albeit scuffed etc but even so

Thats all it really worth for a decent copy

[Tlscapital]

Consider this too maybe ; a lot of those nice records since the upheaval of tintenet in every household then pockets allowed them "sharks" (called that amongst 'crate diggers') as opportunists only for the money that have invaded garage sales, junk shops, flee markets and records fairs alike to know what records to keep and have since gathered home those "valuable" records as some sort of investments.

With what is a lasting down turn in economy (inflation, recession and bleak perspectives before a deflation) some are trying to cash-in on them before it gets worse maybe. But since so many gaps have been since filled-in amongst true music lovers, collectors and dee-jays of whatever pedigree sales are indeed reflecting that some too. The NS speculative 'bubble' burst could be just around the corner...

The expectation from collector's collections passing away coming onto the market definitely tarn down the optimism of "share (records) holders" and speculators alike with such pessimist perspectives of values "crashing" down. Finally the scare policy lead by all western states and their elites to dominate civilisation by fear through 'Covid' and now with the war in Ukraine definitely changes the mood too.

[Steve G]

2 hours ago, Sunnysoul said:

But, on the other hand,  ridiculous amounts being paid for sweet / deep / low rider records ...

Changing tastes and different collectors. Nothing ever stays the same.  

[Tlscapital]

Yes and a new collection to start for those who have them all 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Tlscapital

[Dave Pinch]

9 hours ago, Vadnochka said:

Does anybody else see the fast reducing prices being achieved on ebay recently - even from major sellers - have a look at completed / sold listings 

Quality title 45's fetching much reduced final prices

Is it the general economic climate / cost of importing / temporary re-balance or long term re-set.

Ludicrous discogs prices ( always buy it now ) still causing sounds to stick for months, even years.

I'm not imagining this as I've been relentlessly tracking stuff for decades 

Give me your thoughts / observations

Steve

 

dunno i got battered on everything i went near on carolina soul auctions yet again

[Headsy]

As John Anderson once said, 

"A lot of people will be disappointed one day when they realise just how common some records are "

 

Just saying......

[Scooterboy]

I have noticed an increasing number of eBay sellers are unwilling to state low values on shipping documents, or are using the Global Shipping Programme that adds duty/tax etc at the point of sale.  The extra costs this adds has certainly put me off bidding or buying, and even when I politely raise the question with sellers, many are simply unwilling to budge or change their position.  Perhaps that's putting others off too.  Not that I'm advocating the avoidance of duty/tax...

[Tlscapital]

There's that at play too. True indeed. Introducing a growing 'split' of the customers in regard of geographic location due to Import Taxes enforcement. Meaning that some items will then only find takers on one side of the globe if ever they were more of them on the other side of it. Meaning less bid war. At least less than before. And indeed the Tax addition can prove a serious bite on the final price...

[Solidsoul]

29 minutes ago, Scooterboy said:

I have noticed an increasing number of eBay sellers are unwilling to state low values on shipping documents, or are using the Global Shipping Programme that adds duty/tax etc at the point of sale.  The extra costs this adds has certainly put me off bidding or buying, and even when I politely raise the question with sellers, many are simply unwilling to budge or change their position.  Perhaps that's putting others off too.  Not that I'm advocating the avoidance of duty/tax...

Some of those American's think they will get arrested by the FBI if they put the wrong value on a customs sticker!

[davidwapples]

19 minutes ago, Solidsoul said:

Some of those American's think they will get arrested by the FBI if they put the wrong value on a customs sticker!

But why should the seller do this? 

It saves the buyer 20 percent but if the buyer is flipping it then he makes the extra back for doing nothing.

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

A lot to do with changing tastes along with the import tax issue. 

Bidding big means more VAT. Ebay actually add 28% when I checked recent purchases. When I queried it with them, they told me they pay an external company to collect the tax via the shipping program and the extra 8% is their fee. When I said that it was a rip off their answer was to ask the seller to send the record outside of the shipping program by normal post. 

2 hours ago, davidwapples said:

But why should the seller do this? 

It saves the buyer 20 percent but if the buyer is flipping it then he makes the extra back for doing nothing.

The tax is collected by Ebay for the UK Treasury. It doesn't go to the seller.

[davidwapples]

6 minutes ago, Billy Jo Jim Bob said:

A lot to do with changing tastes along with the import tax issue. 

Bidding big means more VAT. Ebay actually add 28% when I checked recent purchases. When I queried it with them, they told me they pay an external company to collect the tax via the shipping program and the extra 8% is their fee. When I said that it was a rip off their answer was to ask the seller to send the record outside of the shipping program by normal post. 

The tax is collected by Ebay for the UK Treasury. It doesn't go to the seller.

I meant why should the us seller let the buyer save the 20 % custom fee. They wont get any of it .

The uk buyer can then resell it and make an extra 20% plus his profit 

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

4 hours ago, Headsy said:

As John Anderson once said, 

"A lot of people will be disappointed one day when they realise just how common some records are "

 

Just saying......

As I posted on here a couple of months back. There is a difference between rarity and availability, and demand drives the price. Many records are not rare (even the ones described as rare) as they sit in collections i.e. not available

The Sherrell Bros on Currison is a classic example. Around years ago as a 'front page focus' for many dealers and talking to one who had it on his front page he said he had loads of them (from JA at Soul Bowl I think). Now people asking 1000 + for it ?  I think not. 

 

[Steviehay]

5 hours ago, Dave Pinch said:

dunno i got battered on everything i went near on carolina soul auctions yet again

likewise Dave

[Modernsoulsucks]

5 hours ago, Dave Pinch said:

dunno i got battered on everything i went near on carolina soul auctions yet again

As most of the 45s up for auction on there appear battered from the descriptions that's no loss.

I used to trawl US eBay regularly but now only occasionally. If there's anything nice in good condition [VG++ to M-] on there it usually goes for more than I think it's worth, as do poor condition collectible 45s too which I wouldn't go near anyway. And most of the listings are just not worth putting

UK eBay is even worse. The odd realistic seller with decent 45s.

[John Reed]

5 hours ago, Scooterboy said:

I have noticed an increasing number of eBay sellers are unwilling to state low values on shipping documents, or are using the Global Shipping Programme that adds duty/tax etc at the point of sale.  The extra costs this adds has certainly put me off bidding or buying, and even when I politely raise the question with sellers, many are simply unwilling to budge or change their position.  Perhaps that's putting others off too.  Not that I'm advocating the avoidance of duty/tax...

Why should sellers put a low value on for the shipping value.  It may save the buyer some cash, but if the package is lost or damaged in transit, the seller can only claim on the value they've allocated to the package.  There's potentially only downside risk if the seller does that.  If buying from aboard, these costs should be taken into account before bidding.

[Marktsoulman]

9 hours ago, Headsy said:

As John Anderson once said, 

"A lot of people will be disappointed one day when they realise just how common some records are "

 

Just saying......

Spot on... In just 5 years I owned four different copies of Celeste Hardy, 3 copies of Bessie Banks, 3 Intersection and loads of others.... Sold up everything that worth money and now chase things I don't know for £10-£50... Much more fun!

 

[Jnixon]

There are just a few bargains about is all. Always has been, always will be. 
 

Good rare / good obscure records are still making high money and always will. The usual suspects are still making high prices which is fair enough. 
 

Part of the issue is the uk soul scene is fantastic at making perfectly decent but averagely rare records expensive. 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Jnixon
Typo

[Scooterboy]

2 hours ago, John Reed said:

Why should sellers put a low value on for the shipping value.  It may save the buyer some cash, but if the package is lost or damaged in transit, the seller can only claim on the value they've allocated to the package.  There's potentially only downside risk if the seller does that.  If buying from aboard, these costs should be taken into account before bidding.

It's not the Seller that bears the risk, though...is it?  Isn't it me as the buyer that bears the risk if it's lost/damaged, and I've been too tight to pay full-value with shipping insurance?

[Steve G]

7 minutes ago, Scooterboy said:

It's not the Seller that bears the risk, though...is it?  Isn't it me as the buyer that bears the risk if it's lost/damaged, and I've been too tight to pay full-value with shipping insurance?

The seller has responsibility. Hence if fails to arrive, or comes cracked, people make claims for refunds. 

[Scooterboy]

10 minutes ago, Steve G said:

The seller has responsibility. Hence if fails to arrive, or comes cracked, people make claims for refunds. 

OK, but in that case don't eBay have a record (no pun intended) of the sale value/winning bids upon which to base the value of the claim/refund?

If I choose not to pay for a service with full-value insurance, then isn't that my risk...not the sellers?  I didn't think I could make a claim if I'd been unwilling to pay for a shipping service that didn't give me any protection.  I always thought that I bore the risk of asking for a low value and not asking for value-related cover.

[Dave Pinch]

11 minutes ago, Scooterboy said:

OK, but in that case don't eBay have a record (no pun intended) of the sale value/winning bids upon which to base the value of the claim/refund?

If I choose not to pay for a service with full-value insurance, then isn't that my risk...not the sellers?  I didn't think I could make a claim if I'd been unwilling to pay for a shipping service that didn't give me any protection.  I always thought that I bore the risk of asking for a low value and not asking for value-related cover.

it should be your risk.. but once an item is lost or broken you watch the goal posts move.. happened to me once.. lost me record and £500

[Chalky]

18 minutes ago, Scooterboy said:

OK, but in that case don't eBay have a record (no pun intended) of the sale value/winning bids upon which to base the value of the claim/refund?

If I choose not to pay for a service with full-value insurance, then isn't that my risk...not the sellers?  I didn't think I could make a claim if I'd been unwilling to pay for a shipping service that didn't give me any protection.  I always thought that I bore the risk of asking for a low value and not asking for value-related cover.

It’s not your risk. The seller has to make the claim which maybe invalid because of not paying the correct insurance etc

if it’s lost you get a refund. If it’s damaged you return for a refund. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Chalky

[Scooterboy]

10 minutes ago, Chalky said:

It’s not your risk. The seller has to make the claim which maybe invalid because of not paying the correct insurance etc

if it’s lost you get a refund. If it’s damaged you return for a refund. 

Thanks for clearing that up.

[John Reed]

On 03/04/2023 at 17:45, Scooterboy said:

It's not the Seller that bears the risk, though...is it?  Isn't it me as the buyer that bears the risk if it's lost/damaged, and I've been too tight to pay full-value with shipping insurance?

Under distance selling rules globally, the item being sent is still the property of the seller until the buyer has "accepted" the item.  So, if its lost in transit, damaged or not to the satisfaction of the buyer due to a fault or misrepresentation of the item, the buyer is due a refund and the seller then makes a claim on the postal service or insurance. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by John Reed

[Scooterboy]

Thank you, John.  Your and Chalky's responses totally address my questions and clear up my misunderstanding.

Chris

[Mick Boyle]

On 02/04/2023 at 22:40, Vadnochka said:

Does anybody else see the fast reducing prices being achieved on ebay recently - even from major sellers - have a look at completed / sold listings 

Quality title 45's fetching much reduced final prices

Is it the general economic climate / cost of importing / temporary re-balance or long term re-set.

Ludicrous discogs prices ( always buy it now ) still causing sounds to stick for months, even years.

I'm not imagining this as I've been relentlessly tracking stuff for decades 

Give me your thoughts / observations

Steve

 

Steve, next time I see you with your sales box I hope there's a big 40% OFF sign stuck to the front. 

 

[Vadnochka]

Mick ,

The next time you want a Steve Mancha at half price try Carolina Soul !!!

[Mick Boyle]

I’ll stick with the one you sold me thanks But with the price drops you mention I think you owe me a whiskey mate 

[purist]

Yes postal charges have gone up which has killed buying cheapies from the USA for me, but I think this thread has gone off track talking about whether a seller will declare a low value. That has not changed in recent times and the questioner asked what has happened recently to show the drop in prices achieved.
Firstly we all agree that rarity doesn't drive prices, only demand does that, we've mostly all got very rare records that just dont sell because they are not in demand or are not well known. Again that hasn't changed recently. For a few years it seemed to me that some sellers assumed because a few in demand records had jumped up in price way beyond what we might have expected, that all records had jumped up 50%/100%/500% etc. To my mind if I think a record should be the same £60 it was a decade ago then I aint paying much over that amount, no matter who or how its offered for sale. So have some sellers got gold fever and have been asking too much and thats why they aint selling? Maybe not on the same scale but there's always been sellers who ask more for their records than the rest are selling that same record for, so again thats not a recent change.
Surely of all the reasons, inflation hitting the average collector in the pocket, with household bills rising is the main one, its cutting into the amount of available spare cash we have to spend. Also, eBay had a good run for a long time as the best way to reach a worldwide audience, now FB, Source and all other internet avenues offer a better option for selling. When I look on eBay there's not much quality or in demand tackle that even has a sensible starting price beyond a handful of top sellers. If the goodies that are on there are few and far between it makes me stop looking.
So, think back, there used to be a small number of mail order sellers on the scene, then a small number of reliable USA mail order heroes found by those big newspaper type publications, or going there in person, or record bars at venues or, if you were lucky, a local record shop that also sold soul. These days within 10 minutes of turning on my phone Ive already seen more records for sale than the best Niter ever.

So too much choice from too many sellers, OTT prices, Inflation, and the final sad truth, every week we seem to hear of another collector passing away, so less buyers.

One last thought. A while back I was at a well attended venue, maybe 300 in, I looked through a sales box and saw a record. I remembered it had been in this same box a year before, maybe two? It was priced at 400 I think. I said to the seller 'I don't think there's anybody else in here that has the slightest interest in that record other than me. I think in mint it'd be worth 250 to me so I'll give you 200 for it as it is' (it looked a vg with wol) He was aghast. He intimated that I was robbing him, but that was because he'd convinced himself it was now a £400 record, but if nobody wants to buy it at 400 EVER then it ain't a 400 record is it.  To check I wasn't going daft when I was home I checked guides and sales etc. There wasn't a sale anywhere near his valuation, or even mine, and despite me seeing them on eBay etc in the previous 12 months, there wasn't a sale in the last couple of years, hence my thought that this record had had its day. It's not that I'm right and he was wrong. I just thought at the value he'd put on it, no one who'd been collecting for a while would agree with him. I'm happy to report despite not buying that copy or any other copy I am still alive and well, it didn't kill me not owning it, but sometimes sellers convince themselves we can't live without these plastic fantastic wonders, at any price
 

[Steve G]

Some good points there John. I'd add that a number of older collectors who aren't selling up are also buying less than they used to. I hear it time and again "I m very selective now, I've got enough records to last a lifetime, I am going to rediscover my record collection" etc. Not me, but several I have spoken to recently.  

[davidwapples]

People who bought high a few years ago may want / need to sell on now and the prices have dropped on lots of non demand things but they will hang on to their price as dont want to take a massive hit when they paid for hype demand above normal price

[Ben Owen]

I wont be buying from the USA anymore especially with $16 - $25 postage even for something worth £10. 

[Paraboliccurve]

I'm finding it increasingly hard to price records properly! Something I think are worth a lot go for less than I think, and some things I think should be cheap are going for a lot. I can't see any rhyme or reason, often.

[Chalky]

On 10/04/2023 at 17:36, Ben Owen said:

I wont be buying from the USA anymore especially with $16 - $25 postage even for something worth £10. 

But that ten quid record in The USA is £30 here, UK dealers exploiting the postage cost situation.  I'd sooner pay the postage than give my money to a greedy Brit seller.

[Davlee]

Supply , Demand , and changing tastes as we search ever deeper for a golden nugget. 

The change in 20% VAT Hike for imported records & high postage rates from USA has had a big effect on mid-priced record demand. Historical high ticket items seem unaffected and prices keep jumping up with every auction.

[davidwapples]

5 minutes ago, Chalky said:

But that ten quid record in The USA is £30 here, UK dealers exploiting the postage cost situation.  I'd sooner pay the postage than give my money to a greedy Brit seller.

And 10 quid records in the uk are now 14 pound with postage costs  so unless you can bundle some you are 40 percent out of pocket when you order

[purist]

1 hour ago, Paraboliccurve said:

I'm finding it increasingly hard to price records properly! Something I think are worth a lot go for less than I think, and some things I think should be cheap are going for a lot. I can't see any rhyme or reason, often.

On your point about thinking records that should be more then sell for less, and vice versa - I have worked out a perfect predicting analysis for all this pricing hoo-ha. Let's say you think a record should be 400. You see it for sale and it's either a)250 or b) 650. You puzzle, how can it be ? It's obvious really, it'll be a) if you own a copy, and b) if you don't and want to buy one   Happens to me 100% of the time  

[Paraboliccurve]

1 hour ago, purist said:

On your point about thinking records that should be more then sell for less, and vice versa - I have worked out a perfect predicting analysis for all this pricing hoo-ha. Let's say you think a record should be 400. You see it for sale and it's either a)250 or b) 650. You puzzle, how can it be ? It's obvious really, it'll be a) if you own a copy, and b) if you don't and want to buy one   Happens to me 100% of the time  

Ha - very true!

[Chalky]

4 hours ago, Paraboliccurve said:

I'm finding it increasingly hard to price records properly! Something I think are worth a lot go for less than I think, and some things I think should be cheap are going for a lot. I can't see any rhyme or reason, often.

Most records have a history of sales and this is what most of us used for years with no problems.  Most collectors were happy to shift a record on for what thye paid or a small profit to fund another purchase.  Now, it's look at last price, and double that cause they think some mug will pay it.

[Godzilla]

Part of the issue is that everybody with soul records thinks they should automatically get more than they paid for them - regardless as to whether they paid a premium price at the time, paid the price of M for VG, bought when demand was high etc etc etc.

The concept that prices and demand fluctuate appears to be alien to a lot of folk...

[Agent45]

On 03/04/2023 at 03:59, Scooterboy said:

I have noticed an increasing number of eBay sellers are unwilling to state low values on shipping documents, or are using the Global Shipping Programme that adds duty/tax etc at the point of sale.  The extra costs this adds has certainly put me off bidding or buying, and even when I politely raise the question with sellers, many are simply unwilling to budge or change their position.  Perhaps that's putting others off too.  Not that I'm advocating the avoidance of duty/tax...

Basic question about this. Doesn't eBay automatically add the VAT to the invoices? I've always been happy to set low customs declarations since it means nothing to the United States shipper either way but I'm somewhat confused by what the experience is on the other end. Is eBay not charging VAT or are you getting hit twice, by eBay and again by customs on the same sale? I do know that Discogs charges the VAT expense at the point of sale. 

[Frankie Crocker]

eBay is now adding VAT to invoices. Whether they pay this all to the UK Government is open to question. This obviously deters UK buyers, especially on big ticket items. Not sure if high value items are charged again at Customs? Having a low value on the ticket makes sense for many reasons but some USA dealers will not go down that route because of the legal implications. One other problem has worsened on eBay due to their changes - a lot more dealers will not send to the UK and their settings do not accept UK bids: this is a major nuisance if records are to be sent to a contact in the USA.

[Clee93]

52 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

eBay is now adding VAT to invoices. Whether they pay this all to the UK Government is open to question. This obviously deters UK buyers, especially on big ticket items. Not sure if high value items are charged again at Customs? Having a low value on the ticket makes sense for many reasons but some USA dealers will not go down that route because of the legal implications. One other problem has worsened on eBay due to their changes - a lot more dealers will not send to the UK and their settings do not accept UK bids: this is a major nuisance if records are to be sent to a contact in the USA.

Theres 4 or 5 instances where I've had to message US sellers recently and had to either give private email / whatsapp / discogs account name etc...  Just so you can begin to negotiate because theyre all so shit scared they're gonna get done over by the police / ebay accounts restricted. 

I've got a couple of records i'm buying now off a guy and the only way they'll do it with a bit of discount is if I pay via paypal goods and services. Absolutely mad!

[Solidsoul]

5 hours ago, Clee93 said:

Theres 4 or 5 instances where I've had to message US sellers recently and had to either give private email / whatsapp / discogs account name etc...  Just so you can begin to negotiate because theyre all so shit scared they're gonna get done over by the police / ebay accounts restricted. 

I've got a couple of records i'm buying now off a guy and the only way they'll do it with a bit of discount is if I pay via paypal goods and services. Absolutely mad!

Reminds me of the USA sellers who used to scribble out the 'Not For Sale' on demo copies, before they sold them, in case they got arrested by the FBI

Edited May 30, 2023 by Solidsoul

[Steve G]

8 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

eBay is now adding VAT to invoices. Whether they pay this all to the UK Government is open to question. This obviously deters UK buyers, especially on big ticket items. Not sure if high value items are charged again at Customs? Having a low value on the ticket makes sense for many reasons but some USA dealers will not go down that route because of the legal implications. One other problem has worsened on eBay due to their changes - a lot more dealers will not send to the UK and their settings do not accept UK bids: this is a major nuisance if records are to be sent to a contact in the USA.

Same with Discogs, so many "Not available in the UK" now - very frustrating. There will be an SLA in the contract between eBAY and HMR&C, something like they'll pay 98% of funds collected each 30 days. 

[Frankie Crocker]

54 minutes ago, Steve G said:

Same with Discogs, so many "Not available in the UK" now - very frustrating. There will be an SLA in the contract between eBAY and HMR&C, something like they'll pay 98% of funds collected each 30 days. 

...eBay paying funds...can’t see them being too generous as they go via Luxembourg and other ‘offshore’ territories...

The only saving grace is there’s very little left in the USA and much of that’s in rough condition.

Maybe we should have made more of the opportunity decades ago when tge moans about eBay were milder by comparison.