Do I Love You. The truth.

[Quinvy]

DO I LOVE YOU - THE WHOLE TRUTH!

Many of you will have seen the recent Guardian online / Observer newspaper article concerning the furore over the legacy of ‘Do I Love You’ in the wake of Bruce Springsteen’s recent version. If not, we apologise for bringing it up again, but quite simply, Russ Winstanley’s version of events is so distorted (as reported in the article) that I simply had to put on record the TRUTH. I cannot allow the history of the scene to be re-written. Richard Searling’s alternative account in the same article is largely accurate. Quite simply it has to go to arbitration, so here it is…

In 1977, Simon Soussan sent at least one acetate of ‘D.I.L.Y.’ over to England identified as Eddie Foster. Winstanley played the cut at Wigan, and it was an instant hit. Shortly after, other deejays were sent early copies of the vinyl bootleg (actually styrene) ‘Eddie Foster’. Soussan had earlier borrowed several Motown discs from Tom De Pierro who was in charge of the Motown archive in L.A. ‘D.I.L.Y.’ was amongst them. Soussan later, upon failing to retain the discs, gave De Pierro money for them.

By 1978, Soussan was having big success with disco productions and had turned his back on Northern Soul. He sent his collection over for Les McCutcheon (Colin Bee) to sell for him. McCutcheon had become Soussan’s major outlet for N. Soul. At this point he offered to sell McCutcheon the original of ‘D.I.L.Y.’, bearing in mind no-one knew who it was really by. Upon handing over £200, McCutcheon was astounded to find out that it was a Motown recording. It then remained in McCutcheon’s ownership for a year or more and was lent to Winstanley to play the original for a while. Russ Winstanley never owned the original disc. In a meeting at Colony Records in Nottingham, deejay Jonathan Woodliffe asked McCutcheon if he would sell. “£500” was the reply (bear in mind that the highest price for a N. Soul record was £180 at this time). A deal was done under which Woodliffe paid for the disc in instalments. This was in 1979.

By the following year and now deejaying in jazz funk circles, Jonathan swapped the disc with Kev Roberts in exchange for £500 of 12” releases. It then remained in Kev’s possession until sold to me for £5,000 in 1991. At this time the only N. Soul record to have sold for a thousand pounds or more was Robby Lawson’s ‘Burning Sensation’ (sold by Anglo American to a Yorkshire collector).

It was at this juncture that Martin Koppel located a second copy in the possession of Detroit record guru Ron Murphy. Murphy also had a test press of Chris Clarke’s unreleased version which had been destined for V.I.P. Records originally. In 1995, Murphy sold Anglo American his entire collection, which included a mint, unmarked copy of ‘D.I.L.Y.’. This, in turn, was sold to Scottish deejay Kenny Burrell for £15,000 in 1999.

2001 saw Goldmine Soul Supply bring Frank Wilson over to sing his songs at the Fleetwood weekender. This saw Wilson (who was no pauper after writing many Motown hits) offer me £35,000 for my copy (which was refused). Wilson had been unaware of an original SOUL label release until the nineties, or even of a re-release of it.

At this point the story becomes rather better known and we will leave it there, suffice it to say that a few years ago a test pressing turned up in Detroit and was purchased by Jack White, formerly of The White Stripes garage rock band. The two original copies are the only ones known to exist.

Tim Brown
24.11.22 (exactly 57 years and a day after the original was ‘approved’ by Norman Whitfield at Motown’s offices)

 

[Zanetti]

W O N D E R F U L thx

[Andykempster]

Why does anyone give a flying druck anymore, it’s done, dusted and shaken off

no disputing it’s a great song but do you really still care now nearly 50 years on?

[Quinvy]

2 hours ago, Andykempster said:

Why does anyone give a flying druck anymore, it’s done, dusted and shaken off

no disputing it’s a great song but do you really still care now nearly 50 years on?

Well I don’t, but I think Tim was unimpressed by certain people rewriting history.

I simply posted it as a point of interest for members to read, if they actually gave a FF.

[Amsterdam Russ]

2 hours ago, Andykempster said:

no disputing it’s a great song but do you really still care now nearly 50 years on?

Van Gogh's paintings are classic now, but were ignored at the time of their release, but no one in the world ever says 'stop - we don't want to learn any more.'

And before anyone questions the comparison between Frank Wilson's tune and Van Gogh - the answer is public appeal. Fran Wilson's recording is now part of mainstream culture - and it has an intriguing and mysterious provenance. And worth that, people are prepared to pay excessive amounts - just as with Van Gogh's overlooked and obscure offerings. 

Just accept it - Frank Wilson's tune became iconic in the mainstream because it became perennial on the Northern scene. And when the Northern scene became mainstream, so the public embraced its most popular track - the one that came with its own ready made mythology.

It's the stuff of legends - which is exactly why this track has legendary status. If you ever danced to it, you are part of, and partly responsible for, that legend.

[Nick Soule]

As much as I would like to own a copy of FW and would pay a lot of money for one, I don’t think I’d be able to turn down the actual artist asking to buy it from me - especially for £20k more than it had ever sold for at the time. 

[Chalky]

11 hours ago, Quinvy said:

Well I don’t, but I think Tim was unimpressed by certain people rewriting history.

I simply posted it as a point of interest for members to read, if they actually gave a FF.

I get that but history is only being rewritten in the mind of one deluded individual. The truth has been on these pages since Andy Rix wrote it and with more detail added since via the likes of Adam White. 

[Leicester Boy]

Well I enjoyed reading that, many would know the full history of it I didn't.. so thanks.

[Keamus]

Good to get a concise and historically accurate version of events. Thank you.

[Chalky]

7 hours ago, Leicester Boy said:

Well I enjoyed reading that, many would know the full history of it I didn't.. so thanks.

I wasn't having a dig a the post, like you say an enjoyable 10 minutes.  I was just saying only one person is rewriting history and he is being pulled up over it and corrcted but as I said he is a bit deluded and full of sh*t.

Andy's piece in case anyone missed it....

 

And Adam White's further blog which sheds more light on those involved in the recording...

https://www.adampwhite.com/westgrandblog/2018/7/13/frank-assessment-anew

[Wiggyflat]

I have seen the emidisc Russ had....it has a UK Seventies Tamla label over it and Russ No1 written in the middle ....i wonder why he wanted and was lent the original if he had the emidisc 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Wiggyflat

[Steviehay]

Russ and his claim to fame rolls on yes he opened the gate for the cas club ,( why didn't he offer a rental fee ) I honestly don't remember Richard playing it at the time but actually who cares ,Kenny burrell turning up at the Ritz Manchester with it in his box sat next table to us with a chain and padlock on it to keep the titanic down ....for one record this has gone on enough to stretch anyones limitations of who played what ,where it come from ....at the end of the day did we all not DANCE to it ??? Oh indeed we did 

[Leicester Boy]

11 hours ago, Chalky said:

I wasn't having a dig a the post, like you say an enjoyable 10 minutes.  I was just saying only one person is rewriting history and he is being pulled up over it and corrcted but as I said he is a bit deluded and full of sh*t.

Andy's piece in case anyone missed it....

 

And Adam White's further blog which sheds more light on those involved in the recording...

https://www.adampwhite.com/westgrandblog/2018/7/13/frank-assessment-anew

Fully understand that chalky

[Hooker1951]

Frank Wilson Dily has become another Snake sadly because of over play overhype, and false history from Boffins of Ballyhoo from years ago who have milked their version of the story for the past 45 years, every body knows who they are without being named and shamed, I could tell you a lot more about the truth of the start of the Casino all nighters but somethings are better left unsaid,They know, I know that’s what matters.

KR

ML

[Leicester Boy]

1 minute ago, Hooker1951 said:

Frank Wilson Dily has become another Snake sadly because of over play overhype, and false history from Boffins of Ballyhoo from years ago who have milked their version of the story for the past 45 years, every body knows who they are without being named and shamed, I could tell you a lot more about the truth of the start of the Casino all nighters but somethings are better left unsaid,They know, I know that’s what matters.

KR

ML

I honestly believe that stuff like this enhances the whole experience and enjoyment of the music and "scene" isn't some different views of events welcome, not like we can't find enough to disagree about from talc to overplayed to OVO. 

[Hooker1951]

9 minutes ago, Leicester Boy said:

I honestly believe that stuff like this enhances the whole experience and enjoyment of the music and "scene" isn't some different views of events welcome, not like we can't find enough to disagree about from talc to overplayed to OVO. 

Real people always find the truth it frees you up and you can move on to better things, for some people birds of a feather stick together and they remain stuck in a made up world from years ago  and they don’t move on, Like attracts Like if that’s their thing let them have it that way, but your right everybody as their view of things and events that happened, but it becomes difficult for some people to accept a new version when something has been ingrained in their brain for years it’s their own personal choice what they believe and what’s really true.

ML

[Leicester Boy]

15 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

Real people always find the truth it frees you up and you can move on to better things, for some people birds of a feather stick together and they remain stuck in a made up world from years ago  and they don’t move on, Like attracts Like if that’s their thing let them have it that way, but your right everybody as their view of things and events that happened, but it becomes difficult for some people to accept a new version when something has been ingrained in their brain for years it’s their own personal choice what they believe and what’s really true.

ML

It seems certain people/person wants to enhance their own history in the scene, my opinion is whatever people think about him he has contributed enough to not need to reinvent history.  Interesting stuff though.

[Zoomsoulblue]

I have a question- years ago I was told Tim’s copy is slightly warped - apparently / rumour has it that this was done when he was doing photo copy’s of the label on a photo copying machine, left it on got too hot and the rest is history ?

Truth or False ? 

[Hooker1951]

10 minutes ago, Leicester Boy said:

It seems certain people/person wants to enhance their own history in the scene, my opinion is whatever people think about him he has contributed enough to not need to reinvent history.  Interesting stuff though.

We will have to disagree here I know he reinvented history I was there.

KR 

ML

[Leicester Boy]

9 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

We will have to disagree here I know he reinvented history I was there.

KR 

ML

My comments were about his general contribution not regarding the main topic of the thread.

[Zoomsoulblue]

14 hours ago, Steviehay said:

Russ and his claim to fame rolls on yes he opened the gate for the cas club ,( why didn't he offer a rental fee ) I honestly don't remember Richard playing it at the time but actually who cares ,Kenny burrell turning up at the Ritz Manchester with it in his box sat next table to us with a chain and padlock on it to keep the titanic down ....for one record this has gone on enough to stretch anyones limitations of who played what ,where it come from ....at the end of the day did we all not DANCE to it ??? Oh indeed we did 

I remember Kenny doing a spot at a local venue he had that f@uk off chain and padlock and secured it through a speaker stand - what he didn’t realise was that the chain could be removed if you just tipped the speaker back 1” - and slipped the chain out  

[Hooker1951]

1 hour ago, Leicester Boy said:

My comments were about his general contribution not regarding the main topic of the thread.

I understand my comments are about the truth being told and who wants to believe it, I love the truth it makes you strong and free, and along with  that general contribution I’m afraid came a general ripping off and that’s my opinion based on true facts let’s leave it at that like I said  if people have a happy memories who am I to steal them

kind Regards

ML

[Wheelsville1]

3 hours ago, Zoomsoulblue said:

I have a question- years ago I was told Tim’s copy is slightly warped - apparently / rumour has it that this was done when he was doing photo copy’s of the label on a photo copying machine, left it on got too hot and the rest is history ?

Truth or False ? 

Yes it does have an edge warp along with a coffee stain,how ever i don't know how these happend. 

[Geeselad]

3 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Yes it does have an edge warp along with a coffee stain,how ever i don't know how these happend. 

I remember Richard serling saying kev Roberts left it on a chip shop counter which gave it a warp. 

[Woodbutcher]

29 minutes ago, Geeselad said:

I remember Richard serling saying kev Roberts left it on a chip shop counter which gave it a warp. 

That's what I recall being bandied about , always treated it the same as most all-niter talk back then ..... with a pinch of salt ... along with the Chris Clark version actually being Dave Evison's missus or sister overlaid on the backing track ... 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Woodbutcher

[Quinvy]

This is Tim’s answer to the warp questions.

 

It has a slight edge warp. Jonathon stated it was there when he bought it...but from where it came i dont know. The chip shop story is not that record ..its the Jades.Manships assertion that it doesnt play is incorrect, i once played it at the Ritz Rarest of the Rare allnighter. Lee Jeffries bought the 2nd copy ex Burrell that Kenny let Frank write all over.

[Billywhizz]

F/W went for 50 k not 100  k  

[Simon T]

3 hours ago, Quinvy said:

This is Tim’s answer to the warp questions.

 

would kindly to remind me who Tim is ?

 

[Woodbutcher]

7 minutes ago, Simon T said:

 

Tim Brown , Anglo-American ... 

[Happy Feet]

I thought no one cared anymore " Indeed they do " 

[Goldsoul]

7 hours ago, Geeselad said:

I remember Richard serling saying kev Roberts left it on a chip shop counter which gave it a warp. 

Completely untrue. The disc had a slight warp when Jonathan Woodliffe sold it to me. I believe it was damaged when Les McCutcheon the first UK owner loaned it temporarily to a third party. 

[Owd Codger]

Regarding RW's claim that there was a "gap" in Motown's discography which was solved by a group he met at Wigan,  as an old timer and member of Sharon Davis' ( Karen Spreadbury) Four Tops fan club, merging into " Motown Ad Astra", around 1970/71 ??, I' m sure that a discography of Motown issues was published in one of the magazines.

Pre internet and specialist magazines,  getting hold of such listings were Gold dust to young collectors.

I'm pretty sure that the listing for the "Soul" label included FW quite clearly. Possibly listing the A side as " Sweeter as the days go by"

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Owd Codger

[Kesalocasoul]

Here it is

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Kesalocasoul
Re-posted with jpg

[Kesalocasoul]

Might work better with jpg

[Owd Codger]

Kesalocasoul

 

Many thanks .....My memory occasional serves ....but can't remember last week.

 

But it rather disapproves RW claim doesn't it. Motown collectors knew of the FW release entry in about 1970-71.....some, much earlier.

I think the reason I recall it was because, as a young Motown collector on a mission, I was aware that " Sweeter as the days go by"  I would have been, in about 1971, keen to hear a cover of Chris Clark's LP track. The B side... "Do I love You".....never  heard of it at the time.

Thank you

Edited November 27, 2022 by Owd Codger

[Kesalocasoul]