Gino's 'I lost you girl' on Perfecta and on G&G

[Tlscapital]

Anyone know the story behind the G&G release credited to Sir George ? The Perfecta release would be an American pressing featuring the odd quote 'produced by W. Glenn Record Co. Canada'. Perfecta also saw another release 'hey footbal' making it part of Gino's stable of labels with the uncany cataloging numbers and extensions that is so typical of him.

Now I kind of wonder if the Perfecta came out first. Which I'm lead to believe it is. Featuring complete informations on the label for one. Where the G&G release info on the label is like left blank... For two the design and all of that G&G press doesn't look that old like the Perfecta is. Although I'm yet to have a Perfecta copy in the hand to tell better from close.

The fact that these G&G copies popped out in numbers Mint like 'new old stocks' somewhere in the mid nineties I seem to remember (or were they just pressed-up back then ?) is also intruiging. Featuring 'flying high' as the 'A' side that came out on the flip 'I'm so in love' (early seventies) and on the flip of 'could it be that I'm falling in love' in 1977 both on Atac.

Either way these G&G presses have now dried up and command big enough money for those who wish to own the beautiful, sweet'N'hypnotic 'I lost you girl' on 7". I vaguely remember something claiming that these G&G were Canadian pressings. Was it in a John Manship auction 'blurb' or something like that I can't be certain but that's what I recall.

Anyone ?

Edited October 7, 2022 by Tlscapital

[Mark B]

The perfecta one has a different b side think it’s one that was collected by the funk collectors traded my copy to George manhood, from memory he got the better of the deal.

[Tlscapital]

The Perfecta features 'you're should have been true' on the B'side that is more raw, brute punk-funk than funk IMO.

But you're right it was sought after by some funk collectors back then. It's the only 7" release for that tune mind you.

[Robbk]

I saw lots of Perfectas during the 1970s in Detroit and Chicago, but never saw The G&G.  I stopped looking for records in USA after 1976, when I started staying mostly in my 3rd World UN project country, and taking my R&R months in Holland.  So, the G&G must be'80s or '90s.  I think Perfecta started in 1969, and extended through the middle '70s, with another couple issues ('74, & '75?).  

I wonder why Gino chose to register his record companies of Perfecta and G&G in Canada (across the Detroit River, in Canada?   I assume G&G was a Canadian label, and was pressed there, in Windsor, too.   Also, I wonder who the co-owner of the label, and, possibly, producer of the recording session, with name starting with "G", was.  I suspect it was Detroit's OTHER George Washington, who was a member of several Detroit R&B/Soul singing groups (Twilighters, Tears, Four Voices, and others), and songwriter, who worked a lot for Tony Ewing's labels (Chex/Volume).  It is also possible that George (Gino) Washington also was producer, and then the other "G" owner was Othea George (also Detroit R&B Soul singer, songwriter, and sometimes producer), who also worked for Ewing and sung in several of the groups that contained the non-Gino George Washington.

Anyone here know much about the Perfecta and G&G labels' operations, and who the other "G" was?

Edited October 7, 2022 by Robbk

[Tlscapital]

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

I saw lots of Perfectas during the 1970s in Detroit and Chicago, but never saw The G&G.  I stopped looking for records in USA after 1976, when I started staying mostly in my 3rd World UN project country, and taking my R&R months in Holland.  So, the G&G must be'80s or '90s.  Perfecta started in the later-mid '70s, and extended through the late '70s, all after ATAC wound down...

Right Perfecta is first then. G&G later or much later. At least that is official now. We have Robbk testimony as rock solid proof  Important that is to begin with.

Although the other Perfecta single we know the existance of ; Gino Washington's 'hey football' is rather a late sixties or early seventies recording and pressing too.

Giving a date of recording for 'I lost you girl' is another matter. But the flip of the Perfecta 'you should have been true' is supposedly from 1971 egg. Norton comp.

Making it as I believe an early seventies pressing. His ATAC label lasted up to 1985 FWIW. Then he had few ATAC International  releases up to 1989 at least.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Tlscapital

[Soulhawk]

George Washington & W. Glenn

smashing photography, btw

[Tlscapital]

3 hours ago, Soulhawk said:

George Washington & W. Glenn

smashing photography, btw

Thought about that but last & first name ?

But until something better or more conclusive comes along why not consider that in the meantime.

What photography BTW ?

[Robbk]

8 hours ago, Soulhawk said:

George Washington & W. Glenn

smashing photography, btw

Thanks.  That implies that the OTHER George Washington wasn't involved at all.  Which means that Gino produced the original session, like he did most or all of the later ATAC and Perfecta sessions.  Glenn was the credited producer (probably executive producer) on the Perfecta original (He and Glenn probably ran the session together.  My copy  has AT 2880 (an ATAC record number), and "Archer 243" and "Detroit" etched into the runout.  So, the probably had the recording session in Windsor (maybe Glenn had his own recording studio - one of the reasons Gino partnered up with him?).

I would guess that Gino intended to put this out on his ATAC label.  I think this first issue, with "You Should Have Been True" on the B side, was released in 1969.  But, I think the Perfecta re-issue was mid '70s.  Glenn had a record company in Windsor, Ontario, across the river.  I guess that Gino didn't have the cash necessary to cover the recording session and pressing, and either had a previous connection with Glenn, or couldn't find a financier in Detroit to take it on.  It seems that one of Gino's own band did the arranging.  "The Bar Keys" were credited.  I guess they were his show band in 1969.  He had The Atlantics for a long time, from his start in 1962 through at least 1966.  I think they were his friends from high school.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Robbk

[Robbk]

8 hours ago, Soulhawk said:

George Washington & W. Glenn

smashing photography, btw

 

On 05/10/2022 at 12:33, Tlscapital said:

Anyone know the story behind the G&G release credited to Sir George ? The Perfecta release would be an American pressing featuring the odd quote 'produced by W. Glenn Record Co. Canada'. Perfecta also saw another release 'hey footbal' making it part of Gino's stable of labels with the uncany cataloging numbers and extensions that is so typical of him.

Now I kind of wonder if the Perfecta came out first. Which I'm lead to believe it is. Featuring complete informations on the label for one. Where the G&G release info on the label is like left blank... For two the design and all of that G&G press doesn't look that old like the Perfecta is. Although I'm yet to have a Perfecta copy in the hand to tell better from close.

The fact that these G&G copies popped out in numbers Mint like 'new old stocks' somewhere in the mid nineties I seem to remember (or were they just pressed-up back then ?) is also intruiging. Featuring 'flying high' as the 'A' side that came out on the flip 'I'm so in love' (early seventies) and on the flip of 'could it be that I'm falling in love' in 1977 both on Atac.

Either way these G&G presses have now dried up and command big enough money for those who wish to own the beautiful, sweet'N'hypnotic 'I lost you girl' on 7". I vaguely remember something claiming that these G&G were Canadian pressings. Was it in a John Manship auction 'blurb' or something like that I can't be certain but that's what I recall.

Anyone ?

I don't remember Gino ever going by the stage name, "Sir George".  That doesn't seem like something he would do.  So, at, first, I thought that maybe the G&G was just issued by Glenn, alone, disguising the artist name, to make some quick cash, pressing it up in Windsor.  But, the fact that I can't remember a post 1966 Canadian record not having the "manufactured in Canada" statement on its edges makes me wonder about that.

[Robbk]

9 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Right Perfecta is first then. G&G later or much later. At least that is official now. We have Robbk testimony as rock solid proof  Important that is to begin with.

Although the other Perfecta single we know the existance of ; Gino Washington's 'hey football' is rather a late sixties or early seventies recording and pressing too.

Giving a date of recording for 'I lost you girl' is another matter. But the flip of the Perfecta 'you should have been true' is supposedly from 1971 egg. Norton comp.

Making it as I believe an early seventies pressing. His ATAC label lasted up to 1985 FWIW. Then he had few ATAC International  releases up to 1989 at least.

I forgot that I got the AT 2880 around 1969 or 1970.  But we have the Archer pressing number (243).  So we can look up its pressing date.   I'm sure I've seen Archer's pressing plant list in recent years, so it must still be available to us online.  We may even have a copy of it on this forum.  

I've seen at least 3 Perfecta 45s, ALL by Gino Washington.  I think the other two were early to mid '70s releases.  Apparently, for whatever reason, they were interspersed between later ATAC issues (maybe Gino had Glenn finance, record and issue them whenever he was short on cash?).

[Tlscapital]

11 minutes ago, Robbk said:

 

I don't remember Gino ever going by the stage name, "Sir George".  That doesn't seem like something he would do.  So, at, first, I thought that maybe the G&G was just issued by Glenn, alone, disguising the artist name, to make some quick cash, pressing it up in Windsor.  But, the fact that I can't remember a post 1966 Canadian record not having the "manufactured in Canada" statement on its edges makes me wonder about that.

Yes, my gut feeling too somehow. The playback sound quality although of the G&G press is pretty good (likely done with the real masters) FWIW so it's not your full-on trashy bootleg by any means. That could then have be done by that Canadian Glenn guy to cash on both tunes 'flying high' and 'I lost you girl'.

But the whole "package" and as you pointed out the 'Sir George' crediential is kind of misleading I agree. Leaving it open for such speculation for example. The Canadian press theory for the G&G is only a theory picked-up from memory of a long gone John Maniship auction blurb... Nothing definate.

[Tlscapital]

1 hour ago, Robbk said:

...I've seen at least 3 Perfecta 45s, ALL by Gino Washington.  I think the other two were early to mid '70s releases.  Apparently, for whatever reason, they were interspersed between later ATAC issues (maybe Gino had Glenn finance, record and issue them whenever he was short on cash?).

Here I know of only 2 Perfecta 45 ; AT2880 ' I lost you girl' '& SW2870 'football'

[Marc Forrest]

I have a stamped vinyl test press which states ATAC records on the label and just like the Perfecta one carries the ATAC rel matrix AT2880, placing it right after Tim Dougherty`s AT2879 - with the next offcial ATAC rel continuing via AT2930. 

At a not so wild guess and going by this test press the initial release was intended to be on ATAC when it only ever saw the light of day later on Perfecta, its sub label with only one other release. 

[Tlscapital]

On 07/10/2022 at 08:31, Robbk said:

 

I don't remember Gino ever going by the stage name, "Sir George".  That doesn't seem like something he would do.  So, at, first, I thought that maybe the G&G was just issued by Glenn, alone, disguising the artist name, to make some quick cash, pressing it up in Windsor.  But, the fact that I can't remember a post 1966 Canadian record not having the "manufactured in Canada" statement on its edges makes me wonder about that.

Well this outing of 1977 would be his second time at it then ; Sir George. And this one is on his 100% own Atac label if ever the G&G was not that... Featuring the same flip as the 'A' side on the G&G release 'flying high' but here as the 'B' side.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Tlscapital

[Tlscapital]

On 07/10/2022 at 10:48, Marc Forrest said:

I have a stamped vinyl test press which states ATAC records on the label and just like the Perfecta one carries the ATAC rel matrix AT2880, placing it right after Tim Dougherty`s AT2879 - with the next offcial ATAC rel continuing via AT2930. 

At a not so wild guess and going by this test press the initial release was intended to be on ATAC when it only ever saw the light of day later on Perfecta, its sub label with only one other release. 

OK, going by the Atac catalog on '45Cat' I now realize that Gino's 'oh no not me' on Atac AT2878 followed by Tim Daugherty's Atac AT2879 and LOGICALY followed by Gino's 'I lost you (girl)' AT2880 on Perfecta would sort of makes sense since all those sessions feature the Theo& Coff / Washington joint venture sessions.

Going by the labels typos both these Atac 45 are clearly from the same pressing plant. But this very Perfecta of 'I lost you (girl)' not. And I can't see any other Gino's own labels with similar prints. Could this indicate a Canadian pressing ? Might get a Perfecta copy here. Would be good to compare matrixes with your Atac pre-release then.

But still can we rely on Gino's logics in catalog numbring's chronology ? Gino's Atac AT2828 'I'm so in love with you' would then predate those. Never possible that. Given dates on "open sourced" sites like '45Cat' or discogs dates this 1975 ? I don't know. Going by 'gut feeling' it could have been earlIer like a 1972/3 release.

Perfecta SW2870 (one of Gino's other cataloging SW : Sir Washington ?) is clearly 1969/1970. While Gino's Atac SW2824 (late 1968) with 'I'll be around (whenever you want me)' own release on Atac followed by his 'doing the popcorn' on Atac SW2825 (early 1969) and finally 'here I am' SW2826 still on Atac gives us a string of 3 easy fits.

Goes to show that sometimes his cataloging is logical to the human mind and at other times to his only maybe if ever. Looking at that Tim's oddbal of a record begs me only to know if his version of 'flying high' is the same to the Gino's credited ones. Is it ? If so that would be the very first release out of 4 for that 'hippydom' tune of his.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Tlscapital

[Robbk]

3 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

OK, going by the Atac catalog on '45Cat' I now realize that Gino's 'oh no not me' on Atac AT2878 followed by Tim Daugherty's Atac AT2879 and LOGICALY followed by Gino's 'I lost you (girl)' AT2880 on Perfecta would sort of makes sense since all those sessions feature the Theo& Coff / Washington joint venture sessions.

Going by the labels typos both these Atac 45 are clearly from the same pressing plant. But this very Perfecta of 'I lost you (girl)' not. And I can't see any other Gino's own labels with similar prints. Could this indicate a Canadian pressing ? Might get a Perfecta copy here. Would be good to compare matrixes with your Atac pre-release then.

But still can we rely on Gino's logics in catalog numbring's chronology ? Gino's Atac AT2828 'I'm so in love with you' would then predate those. Never possible that. Given dates on "open sourced" sites like '45Cat' or discogs dates this 1975 ? I don't know. Going by 'gut feeling' it could have been earlIer like a 1972/3 release.

Perfecta SW2870 (one of Gino's other cataloging SW : Sir Washington ?) is clearly 1969/1970. While Gino's Atac SW2824 (late 1968) with 'I'll be around (whenever you want me)' own release on Atac followed by his 'doing the popcorn' on Atac SW2825 (early 1969) and finally 'here I am' SW2826 still on Atac gives us a string of 3 easy fits.

Goes to show that sometimes his cataloging is logical to the human mind and at other times to his only maybe if ever. Looking at that Tim's oddbal of a record begs me only to know if his version of 'flying high' is the same to the Gino's credited ones. Is it ? If so that would be the very first release out of 4 for that 'hippydom' tune of his.

I already listed what was etched on the the runout of my Perfecta copy, in a post up above.  It said Archer, Detroit    243.  Do you want me to post a large, high-res scan of it? 

[Tlscapital]

21 minutes ago, Robbk said:

I already listed what was etched on the the runout of my Perfecta copy, in a post up above.  It said Archer, Detroit    243.  Do you want me to post a large, high-res scan of it? 

Right, thanks Robbk but although I read that post of yours and remembered that, still I focused on Mark Forest answer in regard of his whiite label pre-release Atac copy and lost that there. My bad. And thank you for resetting this post on track.

Now your machined 'ARCHER' and following '243 Detroit' matrix explaination should indeed suffice to ask Mark if he has the same on his pre-release (which I believe it will be) but this also indicates once and for all that it's an American release.

The machined 'ARCHER' stamp matrix indicate a sixties or early seventies pressing I imagine. Right ? Like that I have no recollection of seventies records baring such a stamper. Would you happen to know when they stopped their activity ?

[Larsc]

A recording engineer has commented on discogs that "I lost you girl" was recorded August 15, 1970 at Pioneer Recording in Detroit.

The G&G scan has 19,8,83 handwritten on the label so a 1983 release is not impossible.

(There's also a youtube comment that claims that Perfecta was "named after a racetrack windfall he enjoyed that week". Youtube vid is from his Love Bandit compilation on Norton so maybe info from there?)

Edited October 9, 2022 by LarsC

[Tlscapital]

4 minutes ago, LarsC said:

A recording engineer has commented on discogs that "I lost you girl" was recorded August 15, 1970 at Pioneer Recording in Detroit.

The G&G scan has 19,8,83 handwritten on the label so a 1983 release is not impossible.

Scroll down & zoom in all it took. It was there under our noses all that time. Well dear Watson it seems to me that this corroborate pretty well all that's been said before and that this wraps it up. Meaning I guess this resolves it. Thanks a bunch Y'all. Tim

[Tlscapital]

On 07/10/2022 at 10:48, Marc Forrest said:

I have a stamped vinyl test press which states ATAC records on the label and just like the Perfecta one carries the ATAC rel matrix AT2880, placing it right after Tim Dougherty`s AT2879 - with the next offcial ATAC rel continuing via AT2930. 

At a not so wild guess and going by this test press the initial release was intended to be on ATAC when it only ever saw the light of day later on Perfecta, its sub label with only one other release. 

Hi Mark, would you be so kind to pull out your pre-release copy and check if your matrix reads exatly the same as the one given by Robbk from his Perfecta copy ? His reads "AT 2880" - "Archer 243" - "Detroit" etched in the runout groove. What about yours ?

[Robbk]

22 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Right, thanks Robbk but although I read that post of yours and remembered that, still I focused on Mark Forest answer in regard of his whiite label pre-release Atac copy and lost that there. My bad. And thank you for resetting this post on track.

Now your machined 'ARCHER' and following '243 Detroit' matrix explaination should indeed suffice to ask Mark if he has the same on his pre-release (which I believe it will be) but this also indicates once and for all that it's an American release.

The machined 'ARCHER' stamp matrix indicate a sixties or early seventies pressing I imagine. Right ? Like that I have no recollection of seventies records baring such a stamper. Would you happen to know when they stopped their activity ?

The word "Archer" is etched on mine, as is the word "Detroit", and as is also the number: 243.  And now, I also notice, on the opposite side,  a musical note. (or a fancy letter "d") and x m etched just before the word "Detroit', as is AT 2880.  Everything is etched by hand.  Same is true for my later, Detroit pressed ATAC records.  There is nothing machine-stamped on any of them. They were pressed at Archer, rather than Pioneer.  In fact, (this is really interesting)....  EVEN the seemingly L.A. ATAC records, distributed by RPR in Los Angeles, have the word "Archer" etched in their trailers, despite having label designs that look like RPR's, used on their records pressed by L.A.'s Monarch pressing plant.  Could they have been pressed at archer in Detroit, and shipped to RPR in L.A. for West Coast distribution, and had RPR put labels on them from their own printer???

I know that I got the Perfecta record between 1969 and 1971, or the first half of 1972, at the latest.  But, as far as I remember Archer was pressing 45 records all the years from the mid '60s through, at least, the end of The '80s.  And, I believe they pressed L.P.s into the 2000s, or, at least, started pressing again in the 2,000s.

I agree that we should find out if the ATAC pressing info matches.  No, I have no idea what engraving/etching or stamp marks were used commonly in US pressing plants during the 1970s, especially after 1972, as I was mostly living in Africa, The Middle East, and Holland, at that time, and didn't look for records anymore, when visiting family in US and Canada.  But, I also had cut down my looking for records in 1969-72, as I had stopped listening to Soul music radio stations, and didn't like most of what was played, and just bought a few (mostly Motown) records that I liked at record shops.

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Robbk

[Tlscapital]

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

The word "Archer" is etched on mine, as is the word "Detroit", and as is also the number: 243.  And now, I also notice, on the opposite side,  a musical note. (or a fancy letter "d") and x m etched just before the word "Detroit', as is AT 2880.  Everything is etched by hand.  Same is true for my later, Detroit pressed ATAC records.  There is nothing machine-stamped on any of them. They were pressed at Archer, rather than Pioneer.  In fact, (this is really interesting)....  EVEN the seemingly L.A. ATAC records, distributed by RPR in Los Angeles, have the word "Archer" etched in their trailers, despite having label designs that look like RPR's, used on their records pressed by L.A.'s Monarch pressing plant.  Could they have been pressed at archer in Detroit, and shipped to RPR in L.A. for West Coast distribution, and had RPR put labels on them from their own printer???...

I've asked Mark Forest if he'd be willing to share his pre-release matrix on here... Wait and see.

Once I had the RPR distributed ATAC of Gino but was so put off by the mastering (I knew that the pickring guitar intro was shorter on this pressing for 'I'll be around') that lacked all the necassary Ooomph that the local ATAC has there ! Indicating that it was completely re-mastered for that press. From memory all even the vinyl looked like Monarch.

Begging to very seriously doubt that theory (somehow ) of the vinyl pressed up at Archer and re-mastered there too. Then sent to L.A. for a labeling at Monarch... I don't have that RPR distributed ATAC 45 anymore but I can ask the friend who I sold it to to bring it along for his next visit. But like you I can't make up why the 'ARCHER' matrix on this RPR...

Interesting though. Bringing me back to another question I had in chronology ; Gino's 'I'll be around' came out first on Mala. But then what ? ATAC local or distributed by RPR ? On ATAC/RPR first came 'doing the popcorn' 101 then 'I'll be around' 102 while on the local ATAC 'I'll be around' came out first then 'doing the popcorn'. Putting the ATAC/RPR first.

And we know that the RPR distributed deal didn't work too much for Gino. Even less than the Mala deal I believe judging by the number of stockers of Gino's on RPR. Especially the 'I'll be around'. But sadly there's nothing to be found ou there that tells the miserable commercial story of this fabulous 'I'll be around' tune and the 3 consecutive pressings it received.

[Robbk]

17 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

I've asked Mark Forest if he'd be willing to share his pre-release matrix on here... Wait and see.

Once I had the RPR distributed ATAC of Gino but was so put off by the mastering (I knew that the pickring guitar intro was shorter on this pressing for 'I'll be around') that lacked all the necassary Ooomph that the local ATAC has there ! Indicating that it was completely re-mastered for that press. From memory all even the vinyl looked like Monarch.

Begging to very seriously doubt that theory (somehow ) of the vinyl pressed up at Archer and re-mastered there too. Then sent to L.A. for a labeling at Monarch... I don't have that RPR distributed ATAC 45 anymore but I can ask the friend who I sold it to to bring it along for his next visit. But like you I can't make up why the 'ARCHER' matrix on this RPR...

Interesting though. Bringing me back to another question I had in chronology ; Gino's 'I'll be around' came out first on Mala. But then what ? ATAC local or distributed by RPR ? On ATAC/RPR first came 'doing the popcorn' 101 then 'I'll be around' 102 while on the local ATAC 'I'll be around' came out first then 'doing the popcorn'. Putting the ATAC/RPR first.

And we know that the RPR distributed deal didn't work too much for Gino. Even less than the Mala deal I believe judging by the number of stockers of Gino's on RPR. Especially the 'I'll be around'. But sadly there's nothing to be found ou there that tells the miserable commercial story of this fabulous 'I'll be around' tune and the 3 consecutive pressings it received.

Yes, the cut of the grooves on the RPR ATAC issues looks like Monarch, but the plastic is vinyl, rather than the usual styrene for that period.  So, I still wonder about the history of this release.  Also, I find it hard to believe that it would get leased to Mala BEFORE first getting some test marketing done locally.  Usually, bigger nationally-distributed labels would want to see some evidence of a song's popularity and likability (generally from being issued locally), cutting down the risk of spending money distributing and warehousing a "dud".  This would be especially true of Amy-Mala-Bell, which was one of the few (if not the ONLY) major labels that had virtually NO in-house producers or music production staffers, who could assess, at least preliminarily, the potential for a song to sell well.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Robbk

[Tlscapital]

6 hours ago, Robbk said:

Yes, the cut of the grooves on the RPR ATAC issues looks like Monarch, but the plastic is vinyl, rather than the usual styrene for that period.  So, I still wonder about the history of this release.  Also, I find it hard to believe that it would get leased to Mal BEFORE first getting some test marketing done locally.  Usually, bigger nationally-distributed labels would want to see some evidence of a song's popularity and likability (generally from being issued locally), cutting down the risk of spending money distributing and warehousing a "dud".  This would be especially true of Amy-Mala-Bell, which was one of the few (if not the ONLY) major labels that had virtually NO in-house producers or music production staffers, who could assess, at least preliminarily, the potential for a song to sell well.

 

While on discogs they vaguely set the Mala in 1968 and both ATAC's in 1969, on 45Cat they set the local ATAC release in Orober 1968 and the Mala in November 1968. That's a pretty tight schedule for a major label to notice a minor or greater release success localy, pick it up, make a deal, re-master, re-release, distribute and promote it IMHO.

FWIW I've always understood and accepted (maybe am wrong I admit) that Gino's Mala was first. Just like the Vivian Copeland 'so nice, I had to kiss you twice' first released on Mala in October 1967 and later re-released as 2 "split" singles on DORO (pressed localy then for national distribution by and for the Atlantic Group) somewhere in 1969...

If this Vivian Copeland chronolgy of release can be verified this could attest that the Amy-Bell-Mala group was sometimes there and then seeking to make deals with "promissing" producers lo lease a not yet marketed product while leaving the producers as the owner of the recordings and the publishing rights on the material afterwards.

And so goes my theory in belief (only that though - am seeking the truth) for this Gino Washington wonderful 45. The Mala release sales and national airplay did poorly in regard of it's potential I understand. Leaving Gino's wanting to take it "localy" into his hands with it's own first release on his own new label ATAC for instant greater results.

And he did make it a better job judging by the number of copies foating around. One could say the same for the worn out Mala copies too but these were pressed up in larger numbers as well. IME they are both as "rare". Baring in mind that one is a national realese and the other a local one. Then comes the RPR. The "rarest" maybe but the least sexy too.

I could then see this Gino's first ATAC release succes sending "airwave" to L.A. with RPR executives showing interest in a further release with him. Seing the release of his forthcoming 45 'doing the popcorn'. Borrowing a pre-existing 'what can a man do' (Washpan) tune for the flip. Then pushing up a re-release of 'I'll be around' under new longitudes...

But once again with this RPR venture 'doing the popcorn' the curse failed Gino's success. Pushing Gino to re-release 'doing the popcorn' on his own locally but to even smaller success... This is all only "speculative" or 'theorical' if one will. Am more always than pleased to be proven wrong to get the factual chronology with historical backgrounds on it !

On a side note, I "recently" (years ago) got me a copy of his Mala 45 to compare the masterings as I once got me in a RPR press and found that the mastering on both sides were that inferior to the local ATAC one I had "forever" that I went to get me a Mala and compare the masterings... The 'I'll be around' on the Mala is 'sparce'... Not good IMO !

But for the first time I heard 'like my baby' BIG ! Prior that I never liked that side of his. On the Mala yes ! It becomes "orchestral" almost. Where it is a much better fit for the tune and especially the musical arrangements. I now have both the Mala and my old local ATAC copy. Each have their 'play' side. I very rarely keep 2 presses of the same record...

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Tlscapital

[Robbk]

On 09/10/2022 at 10:17, LarsC said:

A recording engineer has commented on discogs that "I lost you girl" was recorded August 15, 1970 at Pioneer Recording in Detroit.

The G&G scan has 19,8,83 handwritten on the label so a 1983 release is not impossible.

(There's also a youtube comment that claims that Perfecta was "named after a racetrack windfall he enjoyed that week". Youtube vid is from his Love Bandit compilation on Norton so maybe info from there?)

So, it seems that Gino re-released those 2 songs on G&G in 1983.  Maybe he still had to do it in partnership with Glenn, because the latter had paid for their recording and original pressing, and so, kept the masters.  So, he won a lot of money at the track, but still didn't have enough to both record and press up his new 45.  Thus, he had to partner up with Glenn; and he set up a new subsidiary to ATAC (Perfecta) to represent that partnership.  And yet, he had partnered with Glenn on other projects, but issued those recordings on ATAC.  The record business has always been interesting and often surprising.

[Marc Forrest]

the run out matrix reads AT2880 - Title (as with all other ATAC releases) - Archer (etched in) and a symbol I can`t work out (will try again tomorrow with sun light  

[Robbk]

6 hours ago, Marc Forrest said:

the run out matrix reads AT2880 - Title (as with all other ATAC releases) - Archer (etched in) and a symbol I can`t work out (will try again tomorrow with sun light  

Does that look something like a stylised italic script single note, with a detached, slightly-curved tail on top, aiming to the right (larger than the letters "xm" to its right, before the word "detroit", written with a lower-case "d), shaped a bit like the note symbol?  Or is it an etched oval, with an italic (I Y), or a fancy, italic script upper case (H) inside?

Edited October 12, 2022 by Robbk

[Tlscapital]

FWIW I've managed to finally dig out my G&G copy (with the hope I will secure me that Perfecta copy - deal still in progress...) and read exactly all the same in the runout groove as Robbk described. It's all scratched in rather 'sparcely' and 'lenghty' going from 9 O'clock down to 3 O'clock !

Using the original masters template for that 'I lost you girl' featured here as the 'B' side. Then for the flip 'flying high' (counting 4 different releases !!!) it bares a G&G matrix but wait... It's the same runout groove matrix as the flip of my copy of Gino's 'Im so in love' on ATAC Internarional AT2828 !

And the runout matrix for the 'flying high' tune on both my copies read exactly like this ;

                                                                243

                                                High-High     G+G 000.1      archer      dxm

 

Although that G+G 0001 runout matrix could have been used prior on earlier ATAC releases. Like indicating another partnership for Gino or what have you. Anyway it still makes it all more confusing as I'd have place my AT2828 release prior to the G&G one. But was it now ?

But we must also try to get a Tim Dougherty's matrix AT2879 (the first release for 'flying high' we are lead to believe. But is it really ?) and the AT2930 runout matrix too then. My bet is that they all will be the same. Gino was pressing his own records just as he wanted when he wanted.

Begging the question was the G&G initial project something peculiar or special to him ? And who was G&G ? Funders like Robbk implied ? The only tune of his that he kept on publihing 4 times ! A tune part of at least more than a pair with the short in time involvement of Theodore & Coffey.

[Marc Forrest]

9 hours ago, Robbk said:

Does that look something like a stylised italic script single note, with a detached, slightly-curved tail on top, aiming to the right (larger than the letters "xm" to its right, before the word "detroit", written with a lower-case "d), shaped a bit like the note symbol?  Or is it an etched oval, with an italic (I Y), or a fancy, italic script upper case (H) inside?

Hard to tell really, too hard... might be what you describe as an italic script but I seriously can not detect it too well. But what I additionally I found with the help of some extra sunlight is the number "248" .. 

[Robbk]

4 hours ago, Marc Forrest said:

Hard to tell really, too hard... might be what you describe as an italic script but I seriously can not detect it too well. But what I additionally I found with the help of some extra sunlight is the number "248" .. 

Are you sure it is not, rather, 243?   My copies of the Perfecta version,  AND ATAC International 2743 "It's Winter (But I Have Spring Fever)" BOTH have 243 etched on them.

[Robbk]

8 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

FWIW I've managed to finally dig out my G&G copy (with the hope I will secure me that Perfecta copy - deal still in progress...) and read exactly all the same in the runout groove as Robbk described. It's all scratched in rather 'sparcely' and 'lenghty' going from 9 O'clock down to 3 O'clock !

Using the original masters template for that 'I lost you girl' featured here as the 'B' side. Then for the flip 'flying high' (counting 4 different releases !!!) it bares a G&G matrix but wait... It's the same runout groove matrix as the flip of my copy of Gino's 'Im so in love' on ATAC Internarional AT2828 !

And the runout matrix for the 'flying high' tune on both my copies read exactly like this ;

                                                                243

                                                High-High     G+G 000.1      archer      dxm

 

Although that G+G 0001 runout matrix could have been used prior on earlier ATAC releases. Like indicating another partnership for Gino or what have you. Anyway it still makes it all more confusing as I'd have place my AT2828 release prior to the G&G one. But was it now ?

But we must also try to get a Tim Dougherty's matrix AT2879 (the first release for 'flying high' we are lead to believe. But is it really ?) and the AT2930 runout matrix too then. My bet is that they all will be the same. Gino was pressing his own records just as he wanted when he wanted.

Begging the question was the G&G initial project something peculiar or special to him ? And who was G&G ? Funders like Robbk implied ? The only tune of his that he kept on publihing 4 times ! A tune part of at least more than a pair with the short in time involvement of Theodore & Coffey.

I also have the G+G etched in the trailer on ATAC International AT 2743.  So, apparently, W. Glenn was involved in projects with Gino for, at least a few years, leading to releases on ATAC, Perfecta, and G&G.  Glenn was credited as producer on the Perfecta issues, and they were listed as "W. Glenn Record Co.", which leads me to believe that Glenn had a financial participation in those projects, rather than a technical one, given that Gino probably ran his recording sessions, and they were recorded in Detroit, rather than Windsor, and the records were also pressed in Detroit, rather than Windsor, and also the fact that none of us ever heard of Glenn as a producer or arranger of other records.  It seems most logical to me, that, all the times G+G appears on a Gino Washington record, it is because Gino had to get the master from Glenn, who had kept it himself, because HE (Glenn) had financed that recording session (and in doing so, had legally become a participant in any future re-issue project).  We have no hard evidence that the G&G issue came out later than the Perfecta.  But because I saw lots of the Perfecta issues, and ATAC International issues, before I left USA in the mid 1970s, and never again looked for records in Detroit, and never saw even one G&G issue, and the latter has what looks like numbers that relate to the year 1983, I tend to suspect that the Perfecta issue came out in early 1970, and the G&G was a re-issue in 1983 (Seemingly with Gino and Glenn both actively participating).

Edited October 12, 2022 by Robbk

[Tlscapital]

10 hours ago, Robbk said:

I also have the G+G etched in the trailer on ATAC International AT 2743.  So, apparently, W. Glenn was involved in projects with Gino for, at least a few years, leading to releases on ATAC, Perfecta, and G&G.  Glenn was credited as producer on the Perfecta issues, and they were listed as "W. Glenn Record Co.", which leads me to believe that Glenn had a financial participation in those projects, rather than a technical one, given that Gino probably ran his recording sessions, and they were recorded in Detroit, rather than Windsor, and the records were also pressed in Detroit, rather than Windsor, and also the fact that none of us ever heard of Glenn as a producer or arranger of other records.  It seems most logical to me, that, all the times G+G appears on a Gino Washington record, it is because Gino had to get the master from Glenn, who had kept it himself, because HE (Glenn) had financed that recording session (and in doing so, had legally become a participant in any future re-issue project).  We have no hard evidence that the G&G issue came out later than the Perfecta.  But because I saw lots of the Perfecta issues, and ATAC International issues, before I left USA in the mid 1970s, and never again looked for records in Detroit, and never saw even one G&G issue, and the latter has what looks like numbers that relate to the year 1983, I tend to suspect that the Perfecta issue came out in early 1970, and the G&G was a re-issue in 1983 (Seemingly with Gino and Glenn both actively participating).

Now that we got some hint as to where to place that G&G release in regard to Gino's discography, we get to go indeep with Gino's financial contributers... Great, I love it. Always loved some of his records but once I got to lay my hands on his sole album on ATAC  (that prior the internet days when I never knew of it's existance) it reminded me what he meant to me that I had forgoten. Took me on a quest to have all that I love of him, learn what he did, how, when and with who...

Now about that Glenn "banker" guy's name it actually only appears on Perecta AT2880 but not on Perfecta SW2870. At least as far as I can tell since I don't have that very 45 so I can't say if a G+G appears in the run out matrix though. But what seems to be more of a common "match" is the involvement of Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey on those sessions with that W. Glenn productions. At least if not credited on the label on the matrix G+G. All seem to date around 1970...

[Marc Forrest]

15 hours ago, Robbk said:

Are you sure it is not, rather, 243?   My copies of the Perfecta version,  AND ATAC International 2743 "It's Winter (But I Have Spring Fever)" BOTH have 243 etched on them.

could well be 243 instead of 248 

[Robbk]

4 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Now that we got some hint as to where to place that G&G release in regard to Gino's discography, we get to go indeep with Gino's financial contributers... Great, I love it. Always loved some of his records but once I got to lay my hands on his sole album on ATAC  (that prior the internet days when I never knew of it's existance) it reminded me what he meant to me that I had forgoten. Took me on a quest to have all that I love of him, learn what he did, how, when and with who...

Now about that Glenn "banker" guy's name it actually only appears on Perecta AT2880 but not on Perfecta SW2870. At least as far as I can tell since I don't have that very 45 so I can't say if a G+G appears in the run out matrix though. But what seems to be more of a common "match" is the involvement of Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey on those sessions with that W. Glenn productions. At least if not credited on the label on the matrix G+G. All seem to date around 1970...

Mike Theodore and Dennis Coffey would have nothing to do with the producing record company in Windsor in any case, unless they, themselves, were the projects' financiers, and had set up a business there, as the recording sessions were done in Detroit.  The initiation of the projects came solely from Gino, who resided and worked only in Detroit.  And the Perfecta Records label was his idea.  Whoever the financier was on the recordings credited with the Windsor, Ontario record production company, must have resided, or, at least operated the credited business, in Canada.  As the recording AND pressing and distribution took place in Detroit, the only part for the Windsor company to play was financing the projects in question.  The first Perfecta issue may not have been connected with the Windsor company and its owner, or, it may have, with the production credit having been left off by accident.  It would seem very odd to me, for Gino to set up a subsidiary label for just a couple of releases, during a time when his ATAC International Records operated, without going out of business.   I still think that Perfecta was set up as a subsidiary label, because it was co-owned by Gino and someone else, because Washington didn't have enough money to issue those few records.  He certainly didn't need to have another label because his ATAC records were flooding the charts and DJs were refusing to play so many different records of his.

[Tlscapital]

Was just noticing that the 'window' in time involving the financial implement of W. Glenn into those Gino's projects involved (when credited but maybe also when not) the A & R participitation of both these guys... FWIW Mike T's work with Gino dates back to 1965 with his musical arrangements for 'when you're lonely' B/W 'Romeo' first released on Creed.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Tlscapital

[Weingarden]

Fascinating stuff, guys! Is the conventional wisdom now that "19,8,83" is some kind of quirky/flubbed way of expressing 1983 or that it refers to the 19th day of August, 1983? If the latter, that is pretty irrefutable evidence that it's a Canadian release, because no Americans write dates that way. In the U.S. it would be "8,19,83."

[Tlscapital]

Nice one. Very true but the poster of that image on discogs is British ! Even though the "hand writing" date is more typical of the north American continent. On that I agree. FWIW in Canada you always had plenty of American imports too. Nothing of irrefutable evidence but like many of the hints we got here it gives us good leads !

Edited October 15, 2022 by Tlscapital

[Weingarden]

Oof, I misread the bit about "19,8,83" above. I thought it was carved in the runout. Now I see it's written on the label. Never mind.

 

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, Weingarden said:

Fascinating stuff, guys! Is the conventional wisdom now that "19,8,83" is some kind of quirky/flubbed way of expressing 1983 or that it refers to the 19th day of August, 1983? If the latter, that is pretty irrefutable evidence that it's a Canadian release, because no Americans write dates that way. In the U.S. it would be "8,19,83."

I am sure that " 19,8,83 " refers to August 19th, 1983.  What else could that string of numerals be?  So, IF that makes it likely to have been a Canadian issue, why is the legally required "Manufactured in Canada" statement not written on the label's edge?  It leads to the implication that it WAS, after all, a bootleg (Glenn pressing it up by himself, without Gino's participation.  But, why would Glenn have pressed it in Detroit, rather than Windsor?

[Robbk]

I've just noticed a 2012 comment on Discogs by 313Classiccs, stating  the following:

In a later comment, he stated that this G&G record was issued in 1971.  I've seen the name, "Gil Roberts" before, connected with '60s Detroit Soul music (and, perhaps, even Motown?), but, unfortunately, I can't remember where, or in what capacity or context.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Robbk

[Weingarden]

Off topic: Thanks for reminding me how great the Perfecta single is. Pulled out my copy and will now be playing it out next chance I get.

[The Yank]

6 hours ago, Robbk said:

I've just noticed a 2012 comment on Discogs by 313Classiccs, stating  the following:

  I've seen the name, "Gil Roberts" before, connected with '60s Detroit Soul music (and, perhaps, even Motown?), but, unfortunately, I can't remember where, or in what capacity or context.

      I don't think Gil was ever a Motown employee- he was the General Manager at Arc-Jay-Kay Distributors who handled the Motown,Chisa, Soul and V.I.P. labels. (Record World July 20, 1974) -

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by The Yank

[Tlscapital]

Would Gil and Gino meet again later after their Vietnam "trip" and took the opportunity of that "distribution" position of Gil as 'sales manager' at Arc-Jay-Kay to make that one-off G&G (Gino or George (Sir) for that matter & Gil) label re-release split 45 of two previously existing 'A' sides of Gino's any time somewhere after 1974... ?

[Tlscapital]

7 hours ago, Robbk said:

I've just noticed a 2012 comment on Discogs by 313Classiccs, stating  the following:

In a later comment, he stated that this G&G record was issued in 1971.  I've seen the name, "Gil Roberts" before, connected with '60s Detroit Soul music (and, perhaps, even Motown?), but, unfortunately, I can't remember where, or in what capacity or context.

That Gil Roberts like a vietnam "battlefield" misadventure brother in arm story theory for that label's name combined with 'The Yank' post pointing that distribution at Arc-Jay-Kay position for Gil post mid 1974 sounds plausible as meaningful for Gino's character in that industry and his ways to explain tha G&G label's name. Still 1971 for that G&G release I doubt it seriously.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Tlscapital

[Robbk]

20 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

That Gil Roberts like a vietnam "battlefield" misadventure brother in arm story theory for that label's name combined with 'The Yank' post pointing that distribution at Arc-Jay-Kay position for Gil post mid 1974 sounds plausible as meaningful for Gino's character in that industry and his ways to explain tha G&G label's name. Still 1971 for that G&G release I doubt it seriously.

I agree.  1974-1983 seems to be the possible window for G&G.  But, I still wonder about what  W. Glenn's part in everything was.

[Larsc]

During 1974 Gil Roberts became employed by WEA:

[Tlscapital]

Sticking to our last theory implying that Gil Roberts would be one of the 'G' on the G&G label enabling him to benefit from his disitributor position at Arc-Jay-Kay to distribute discretely the said record we have to conclude;

Knowing that Gil Roberts went to WEA at one time somewhere in 1974 after being at Arc-Kay-Jay this would mean that the G&G release would actually date between mid to late 1974 ! While Gil was still working there.

But not later as Gil's position at WEA would simply not allow him such a "quirk" move. I believe at least. And by 1977 Gil retired from the business anyway. All that is still most plausible but then condemning the 1983 theory.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Tlscapital

[Larsc]

2 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

by 1977 Gil retired from the business anyway. All that is still most plausible but then condemning the 1983 theory.

Ah, no. I forgot to add the date. He retired in 1992.

[Tlscapital]

4 minutes ago, LarsC said:

Ah, no. I forgot to add the date. He retired in 1992.

You mean the paper clip is from 1992 ?

[Larsc]

19 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

You mean the paper clip is from 1992 ?

Yes.