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Posted (edited)

Just saw a Hank Jacobs, just like mine, pretty beat up but still playable. I've noticed lots of others that always seem to show up in rough condition. Prescions, such misery is another, I'm guessing they sold relatively well at the time, rather than being found dead stock. Am I correct in my thinking?Β 

Edited by Geeselad
  • Up vote 2
Posted

HiΒ 

Johnnie mae MatthewsΒ  Β i have no choiceΒ  Β big Hit

been after a decent copy for years they all seem to be battered when one comes up

for sale

Floyd

  • Up vote 2
Posted
1 hour ago, Happy Feet said:

I once read a feature years ago , regarding the state of a lot of old reggae records both here and in the UK and from Jamaica, and the reason given that the " Parties" all night and lots of people having a good time , that the records very rarely made in back into the sleeves if at all , maybe our American cousins where having as much fun and remember these tunes where plentiful and probably not looked upon as future collectors items but to be enjoyed and danced to at the time of release and suffered the same fate , and remember a lot came over and where used as ships ballast , back in day , wired into bundles via the drill holes , I remember talking to Pete Widd , about the very subject of ships ballast years agoΒ 

Think I remember reading the same somewhere, that's probably what set this train of thought.Β 

Posted
2 hours ago, Soul16 said:

Yep, agree regarding Tommy Frontera.

I’ve found that Freddie Houston - Soft Walkin’ is another example.

I remember having TF for trade at a nighter, Bedford maybe? Guy was after it, ended up trading it for a mint big daddy Rodgers, Guy was gutted said he'd have given me three copies of BDR, for the TF. Must have been a little local hit anyway as it's never surfaced in large quantities, that copy was knackered too.Β 

Posted (edited)

I was in a house in Detroit where the bedroom was used to store 45’s. None of the records were in a sleeve. There must have been at least a thousand 45’s in there.

Edited by David Meikle

Posted

So Rick if the ships ballast myth was nothing more than that , perhaps a rouse to put others off the trail and the true source?Β 

I knew the significance of the drill hole , deletions etc but I'm sure that back in the day on certain markets stalls that the hole was used ,threaded with wire in boxes leaving just enough room to look through the records and when purchasing the owner would then select a copy from another box kept out of site , to prevent theft , I'm sure a couple of shops also copied this style .

Posted
37 minutes ago, Woodbutcher said:

Why would they do that when there's a bloody great hole right there in the middle ...Β :facepalm:

To stop thieving I suppose , ,wire flexible records in old Britvic style boxes , the thread is how come so many damaged records , It was just another way of protecting their stock , and yes some stalls and shops did it this way which would contribute to the damage suffered by so many records , they weren't for sale , it was just to stop theft .the ones for sale where under the counter so to speak .Β 

And yes there where some that would use the same method , using the centre larger hole with a metal bar , exactly the same reason to stop the thieves , but again wouldn't have done much for the longevity of the record in the box , lots of theiving f*c*e*s then and nowΒ 

Β 

Posted

It's a good thing to find collectible records in battered shape. It means people were enjoying them before the 45s were discovered by soul 45 collectors.Β 

  • Up vote 3
Posted
11 hours ago, Benji said:

Both Belita Woods on Moira are hard to find in better condition aren't they?

Am surprised a bit about some of the records mentioned in this thread. Had couple of copies each over the years of Harry Deal and Freddie Houston, all EX or better. Never noticed how hard to find they are nowadays in acceptable condition.

And yes, that records as ballast for ships is just urban myth.

I was after a decent copy of Belita Woods for ages. Every copy I came across was trashed. In the end I ended up settling for a trashed one.

Posted

The ballast stories using records, I knew a few guys who worked for the merchant navy sailing out of Liverpool to New York and they told me thousands of 45,s came in to Liverpool this way in the 1950,s and early 1960,s it had a big influence on Liverpool beat music scene circa 1959 - 63 when you would find a lot of B sides r n b soul Tamla beat versions by the local beat groups at the time

ML

Posted
2 hours ago, Rick Cooper said:

Here's some information about the RnB and Soul records that Liverpool groups performed and recorded which is worth looking at. Looks conclusive to me.

https://medium.com/@pitt_bob/not-the-cunard-yanks-the-real-origins-of-the-beatles-r-b-covers-c6f2e2b3ff3b

Β 

A very comprehensive and scholarly review that enlightens those interested in the origins of 50’s US RnB imports - however, the word β€˜ballast’ does not figure prominently...

Given the cost of 45’s and the weight of them, I do wonder how many records were brought back by those working on the boats.

Posted

I personally knew some of these Cunard yanks who worked on the New York London journey who used to bring American fashion back from New York, Shirts, bomber jackets, shoes etc etc , The question I ask why would they make lies up about records being brought in, they were sound lads it’s not something they would make up , the fact is some people on this scene tend to be opinionated and want the NS history to be the way they think, Why not except that records did get shipped in this way along with other ways,I’m old enough to remember the Liverpool beat scene and the Manchester one too I seen a lot of these bands in 1963- 66 and they were performing songs and sounds that were totally unheard of at the time to me anyway Β and some never heard them again till maybe 10 years later when NS came to the fore

ML

Posted
12 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

I personally knew some of these Cunard yanks who worked on the New York London journey who used to bring American fashion back from New York, Shirts, bomber jackets, shoes etc etc , The question I ask why would they make lies up about records being brought in, they were sound lads it’s not something they would make up , the fact is some people on this scene tend to be opinionated and want the NS history to be the way they think, Why not except that records did get shipped in this way along with other ways,I’m old enough to remember the Liverpool beat scene and the Manchester one too I seen a lot of these bands in 1963- 66 and they were performing songs and sounds that were totally unheard of at the time to me anyway Β and some never heard them again till maybe 10 years later when NS came to the fore

ML

I don’t think anyone doubts that some records travelled across the Atlantic with servicemen, merchant navy sailors etc. The doubts really relate to the large quantity of records allegedly imported and the influence that had on the evolving rare soul scene AND particularly to the tosh peddled about vinyl being used as ship’ ballast. The Merseybeat sound of the 60’s was certainly influenced by the music of the USA - Beatles cover versions confirm Motown was a significant influence. The question I’d be asking is if the Cunard Brits are blowing much of their wages on Yank fashion, how much money did they have remaining for RnB 45’s which despite their seemingly low cost, were priced at a level beyond most working people?

Posted
2 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

I don’t think anyone doubts that some records travelled across the Atlantic with servicemen, merchant navy sailors etc. The doubts really relate to the large quantity of records allegedly imported and the influence that had on the evolving rare soul scene AND particularly to the tosh peddled about vinyl being used as ship’ ballast. The Merseybeat sound of the 60’s was certainly influenced by the music of the USA - Beatles cover versions confirm Motown was a significant influence. The question I’d be asking is if the Cunard Brits are blowing much of their wages on Yank fashion, how much money did they have remaining for RnB 45’s which despite their seemingly low cost, were priced at a level beyond most working people?

could the 'ballast' remarks have come about if ships were faced with sailing across the AtlanticΒ  with not much cargo, and then rather than then having to use water ballast, they instead loaded up with not very valuable cargo eg vinyl records,Β us comic books, and so on in the cargo holds, that normally wouldn't be worth transporting across?

Β 

Β 


Posted
6 minutes ago, Source said:

could the 'ballast' remarks have come about if ships were faced with sailing across the AtlanticΒ  with not much cargo, and then rather than then having to use water ballast, they instead loaded up with not very valuable cargo eg vinyl records,Β us comic books, and so on in the cargo holds, that normally wouldn't be worth transporting across?

Β 

Β 

that is certainly true of Ponographic books. They were rolled up as ballast.

Posted
4 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

I don’t think anyone doubts that some records travelled across the Atlantic with servicemen, merchant navy sailors etc. The doubts really relate to the large quantity of records allegedly imported and the influence that had on the evolving rare soul scene AND particularly to the tosh peddled about vinyl being used as ship’ ballast. The Merseybeat sound of the 60’s was certainly influenced by the music of the USA - Beatles cover versions confirm Motown was a significant influence. The question I’d be asking is if the Cunard Brits are blowing much of their wages on Yank fashion, how much money did they have remaining for RnB 45’s which despite their seemingly low cost, were priced at a level beyond most working people?

The Cunard brits , I didn’t say they bought records to bring back although they might well done, I said they were aware that records were being brought in either by ballast or other means they were working on the ships not you so I will tend to believe their version of things they weren’t into NS so they wouldn’t have any reason to lie about these things and forget the Beatles cover versions there were approx 200 groups in Merseyside and the same in Manchester singing those cover versions I heard a lot of them do it NS began in 1953 not 1973 and my wife’s late father had shirts bought over there which my mother in law still keeps,Β 

Been there Done it Take care

open up your mind

ML

Posted
9 hours ago, Source said:

could the 'ballast' remarks have come about if ships were faced with sailing across the AtlanticΒ  with not much cargo, and then rather than then having to use water ballast, they instead loaded up with not very valuable cargo eg vinyl records,Β us comic books, and so on in the cargo holds, that normally wouldn't be worth transporting across?

Β 

Β 

Not being an expert on maritime design, I should briefly clarify what I said earlier...sailing ships that used sails for power would have used extra weight in the holds for ballast in the period before vinyl records were thought of. Ships that were propeller driven would use seawater as ballast as this was a better system than the earlier one. I very much doubt the hearsay that USA records came across in ships’ holds in quantity but acknowledge they could well have accompanied seamen in smaller quantities in the 50’s and 60’s.

And by the way, I travelled from Liverpool to Manchester, and from Manchester to Liverpool on the Ship Canal in the 1960’s. I was also in Salthouse Dock in the 1960’s and met a Captain Duffy - I wrote about the occasion in school the next week. I started supporting Liverpool in the 1960’s and saw my first match at Anfield in 1973 so have an excellent working knowledge of the city and docks. I have taught students about Liverpool and it’s docks/industries for decades. I was also at Anfield a fortnight ago for the Rolling Stones concert which was brilliant, another top group who readily acknowledges the US RnB influence. My mind is open to anything factual but the bullshit detector kicks in when people start blabbing about something that is unproven and possibly untrue. People in the past have rumoured that records were used as ship’s ballast but I do not believe this ever occurred QED.Β 

  • Up vote 1
Posted
16 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Not being an expert on maritime design, I should briefly clarify what I said earlier...sailing ships that used sails for power would have used extra weight in the holds for ballast in the period before vinyl records were thought of. Ships that were propeller driven would use seawater as ballast as this was a better system than the earlier one. I very much doubt the hearsay that USA records came across in ships’ holds in quantity but acknowledge they could well have accompanied seamen in smaller quantities in the 50’s and 60’s.

And by the way, I travelled from Liverpool to Manchester, and from Manchester to Liverpool on the Ship Canal in the 1960’s. I was also in Salthouse Dock in the 1960’s and met a Captain Duffy - I wrote about the occasion in school the next week. I started supporting Liverpool in the 1960’s and saw my first match at Anfield in 1973 so have an excellent working knowledge of the city and docks. I have taught students about Liverpool and it’s docks/industries for decades. I was also at Anfield a fortnight ago for the Rolling Stones concert which was brilliant, another top group who readily acknowledges the US RnB influence. My mind is open to anything factual but the bullshit detector kicks in when people start blabbing about something that is unproven and possibly untrue. People in the past have rumoured that records were used as ship’s ballast but I do not believe this ever occurred QED.Β 

Β 

a lot of comparable stories online about how us comic books ended up in uk, Liverpool, Manchester, London

clip of one below, google takes ya to more

Β 

Β 

A short history of ballastΒ comics

https://g1rm.wordpress.com/2020/04/18/a-short-history-of-ballast-comics/

Β 

So to explain what actually happened with this unofficial supply of comics. Ships would load on ballast with comics as back in the day you’d have print runs of hundreds of thousands, so when newsstands returned unsold copies in the US, they’d be used by ships because they were so disposable plus with US comics distribution essentially in the hands of the Mob it was an easy way to kill excess printruns without too many questions. These copies would get to the UK and if not flushed into the Atlantic, they’d be kept onboard or dumped portside and this is where for us it gets interesting.

If you lived in a big port city (which I did having grown up in Glasgow) you’d find piles of comics, sometimes slightly water damaged, in markets or newsstands. I remember one stall in the old Barras market, plus one in St. Enoch’s Square where I’d go down and pick up imports such asΒ Amazing Spider-ManΒ #129.

Β 

shrug

Posted
21 minutes ago, Source said:

Β 

a lot of comparable stories online about how us comic books ended up in uk, Liverpool, Manchester, London

clip of one below, google takes ya to more

Β 

Β 

A short history of ballastΒ comics

https://g1rm.wordpress.com/2020/04/18/a-short-history-of-ballast-comics/

Β 

So to explain what actually happened with this unofficial supply of comics. Ships would load on ballast with comics as back in the day you’d have print runs of hundreds of thousands, so when newsstands returned unsold copies in the US, they’d be used by ships because they were so disposable plus with US comics distribution essentially in the hands of the Mob it was an easy way to kill excess printruns without too many questions. These copies would get to the UK and if not flushed into the Atlantic, they’d be kept onboard or dumped portside and this is where for us it gets interesting.

If you lived in a big port city (which I did having grown up in Glasgow) you’d find piles of comics, sometimes slightly water damaged, in markets or newsstands. I remember one stall in the old Barras market, plus one in St. Enoch’s Square where I’d go down and pick up imports such asΒ Amazing Spider-ManΒ #129.

Β 

shrug

Thanks for posting. We boys in North Wales were obviously missing out... Glasgow was evidently the place to be! I’m not going to take on the Mob here or say anything that couldΒ result in a horse’s head put in a Β Moderator’s bed...

Posted
10 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Not being an expert on maritime design, I should briefly clarify what I said earlier...sailing ships that used sails for power would have used extra weight in the holds for ballast in the period before vinyl records were thought of. Ships that were propeller driven would use seawater as ballast as this was a better system than the earlier one. I very much doubt the hearsay that USA records came across in ships’ holds in quantity but acknowledge they could well have accompanied seamen in smaller quantities in the 50’s and 60’s.

And by the way, I travelled from Liverpool to Manchester, and from Manchester to Liverpool on the Ship Canal in the 1960’s. I was also in Salthouse Dock in the 1960’s and met a Captain Duffy - I wrote about the occasion in school the next week. I started supporting Liverpool in the 1960’s and saw my first match at Anfield in 1973 so have an excellent working knowledge of the city and docks. I have taught students about Liverpool and it’s docks/industries for decades. I was also at Anfield a fortnight ago for the Rolling Stones concert which was brilliant, another top group who readily acknowledges the US RnB influence. My mind is open to anything factual but the bullshit detector kicks in when people start blabbing about something that is unproven and possibly untrue. People in the past have rumoured that records were used as ship’s ballast but I do not believe this ever occurred QED.Β 

I come from 15 miles from Manchester and 15 miles from Liverpool Β so know all this area like the back of my hand I first seen the Rolling Stones in Wigan November 1963 and 1964 Β and 1965 in 63 they appeared at Wigan Emp Β which became the Casino later I was a doorman at the said club pre 1973 I’ve seen not boasting probably more artists Β and groups than most people on this planet , some of these artists I have worked security looking after them including Michael Jackson on his bad boy tour, I first seen the Stones because I was obsessed with RnB music which they played, So I think my view on this subject is have an open mind I have spoken to men who worked on these ships have you? So rather than say people are making it up I’ve got witnesses who don’t know one another by the way, those liners were big enough to hide a tank never mind 10,000 records, I’m a good judge of character and can spot a bullshitter at 1000 miles being a security boss for 45 years so don’t be calling it bullshit leave it open to your mind you show me Β and prove to me that it never happened there are a lot of things what happened with music and records where there are gaps and certain boffins of ballyhoo on this site that fill those gaps according to there to there opinionated logic, no offence to the guilty parties but emperors new clothes gets my bullshit detector into gear,

Been there Done it

Have a great Day

ML

  • Up vote 1
Posted
29 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

I come from 15 miles from Manchester and 15 miles from Liverpool Β so know all this area like the back of my hand I first seen the Rolling Stones in Wigan November 1963 and 1964 Β and 1965 in 63 they appeared at Wigan Emp Β which became the Casino later I was a doorman at the said club pre 1973 I’ve seen not boasting probably more artists Β and groups than most people on this planet , some of these artists I have worked security looking after them including Michael Jackson on his bad boy tour, I first seen the Stones because I was obsessed with RnB music which they played, So I think my view on this subject is have an open mind I have spoken to men who worked on these ships have you? So rather than say people are making it up I’ve got witnesses who don’t know one another by the way, those liners were big enough to hide a tank never mind 10,000 records, I’m a good judge of character and can spot a bullshitter at 1000 miles being a security boss for 45 years so don’t be calling it bullshit leave it open to your mind you show me Β and prove to me that it never happened there are a lot of things what happened with music and records where there are gaps and certain boffins of ballyhoo on this site that fill those gaps according to there to there opinionated logic, no offence to the guilty parties but emperors new clothes gets my bullshit detector into gear,

Been there Done it

Have a great Day

ML

Cheers ML. Thanks for posting.

I take my hat off to you for being a doorman at the Emp. My grandparents danced there before the War. My dentist was in Wigan 1964-69 at the time you were working there.

My father’s naval base was at Liverpool so I’ve been acquainted with the Mersey Docks for a long time. I have not spoken to anyone who worked on the. Cunard liners, but if they were born in 1932, they would be 90 today, so there can’t be many of them around to talk to.

It’s impossible to prove a negative event, something that did notΒ happen, as there’s no evidence! On the other hand, it may be possible to confirm an actual event if there’s actual proof eg photographs, ship loading records etc. As you grow older and wiser, and the story-tellers drink and boast more and more, one does become more sceptical about the accuracy of the yarns spun...

  • Up vote 2
Posted

Been a lot of talk of water damaged stock, and whatever the reason πŸ™„πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‰, what titles have you spotted multiple of, that have suffered from damage through H2O?Β 

Posted
2 hours ago, Geeselad said:

Been a lot of talk of water damaged stock, and whatever the reason πŸ™„πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‰, what titles have you spotted multiple of, that have suffered from damage through H2O?Β 

Clyde McPhatter - Lonely people can't afford to cry (Amy) - is one that (watery pun not intended) springs to mind. And if I'm not mistaken, I recall a sizeable haul of Chess/Checker 45s that (again, pun not intended) surfaced in the early 2000s that was quite severely water damaged.

Posted
7 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Clyde McPhatter - Lonely people can't afford to cry (Amy) - is one that (watery pun not intended) springs to mind. And if I'm not mistaken, I recall a sizeable haul of Chess/Checker 45s that (again, pun not intended) surfaced in the early 2000s that was quite severely water damaged.

I was going to start with that myself! Good call

Posted
8 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Clyde McPhatter - Lonely people can't afford to cry (Amy) - is one that (watery pun not intended) springs to mind. And if I'm not mistaken, I recall a sizeable haul of Chess/Checker 45s that (again, pun not intended) surfaced in the early 2000s that was quite severely water damaged.

I've got that in a picture sleeve in perfect nick. (Not that that says anything about the overall picture, obviously.)

I've had several copies of Delegates of Soul on Uplook and they all had damaged labels; weirdly, in each case the plastic was near mint.

Β 

Β 

Posted

Sister Love - give me your love - Mowest, always seems to appear in not great condition.Β 

Delegate's of Soul is one that seems to have alot of water damaged label copies.Β 

Posted
7 minutes ago, Paraboliccurve said:

I've got that in a picture sleeve in perfect nick. (Not that that says anything about the overall picture, obviously.)

I've had several copies of Delegates of Soul on Uplook and they all had damaged labels; weirdly, in each case the plastic was near mint.

Β 

Β 

Wow, never seen or heard of a pic sleeve for c. mcphatter before. Any chance of a nice scan of it?

Posted
9 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Clyde McPhatter - Lonely people can't afford to cry (Amy) - is one that (watery pun not intended) springs to mind. And if I'm not mistaken, I recall a sizeable haul of Chess/Checker 45s that (again, pun not intended) surfaced in the early 2000s that was quite severely water damaged.

The label on my Clyde McPhatter demo is all but washed away too...the vinyl is in M- condition tho....

Posted
10 minutes ago, Benji said:

Wow, never seen or heard of a pic sleeve for c. mcphatter before. Any chance of a nice scan of it?

Your surprise got me thinking Benji - and unfortunately it turns out my elderly memory is playing tricks on me. I've just been to my record room - my copy of Lonely People is a standard pink demo, but the picture sleeve is of I'll Love You Til The Cows Come Home.

I would have bet my house on it being LPCATC!

Lots of records, irregularly perused, early onset Alzheiner's - one or all, take your pick. Sorry to disappoint.

Β 

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