Ric-Tic Records on CD + unreleased tracks?

[David Meikle]

This is me with Harry Weinger twenty years ago. Unfortunately the writing on the box is illegible. Can’t answer either question, sorry.

[David Meikle]

Myself and JJ Barnes in Detroit. Couldn’t believe he turned up in that shirt.

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by David Meikle
photo adjusted

[Owd Codger]

 I contacted a compiler of  many Motown CDs , so his contacts,  knowledge and access to the vaults and it's contents should be well regardrd I would think Here is his reply

 

 

As far as I can gather all aspects of the sale of RT/GW are very very woolly - a number but by no means all of the catalogue tapes were passed over but the paperwork was so tenuous that U believe discovering what Universal owns and doesn't own is next door to impossible - and nowadays they are so edgy regarding litigation that this has become a minefield for them. Which is why you will see  tracks that have already been released by Motown in the past being available and not really ever seen any unreleased. It is just impossible to work out legally who owns what - even possesion of the tapes doesn't signify ownership as far as I can see.
If we wind the clock back to the original UK - Ric Tic LP - I am almost positive that some of those tracks were 'needle drops' and in the case of Mark III Trio–   G'Wan (Go On) I know that to be true. It almost explains then why some bootleggers have got away with releasing material on 'independent' labels and never been proscecuted - as it's too diffciult to prove ownership.

[Rick Cooper]

13 hours ago, Owd Codger said:

 I contacted a compiler of  many Motown CDs , so his contacts,  knowledge and access to the vaults and it's contents should be well regardrd I would think Here is his reply

 

 

As far as I can gather all aspects of the sale of RT/GW are very very woolly - a number but by no means all of the catalogue tapes were passed over but the paperwork was so tenuous that U believe discovering what Universal owns and doesn't own is next door to impossible - and nowadays they are so edgy regarding litigation that this has become a minefield for them. Which is why you will see  tracks that have already been released by Motown in the past being available and not really ever seen any unreleased. It is just impossible to work out legally who owns what - even possesion of the tapes doesn't signify ownership as far as I can see.
If we wind the clock back to the original UK - Ric Tic LP - I am almost positive that some of those tracks were 'needle drops' and in the case of Mark III Trio–   G'Wan (Go On) I know that to be true. It almost explains then why some bootleggers have got away with releasing material on 'independent' labels and never been proscecuted - as it's too diffciult to prove ownership.

Thanks for finding this out. So, if there are any unreleased Ric-Tic/Golden World tracks there is no chance of an official release and other previously released tracks are also unlikely to be on an official CD. However if anyone finds a cellar full of tapes and acetates anything goes. 

It follows that other unreleased tracks on  Universal Music Group labels will also never see the light of day which is a shame, to put it mildly.

[Owd Codger]

It would suggest that only the tracks that have been PREVIOUSLY issued on comps, 45s etc will used again...unless UMG have proof of ownership...eg Harlem, I have faith in you etc and other Ric Tic items were on the Soul Master expanded CD. Therefore it's most unlikely to get tracks never issued by Motown before.

I can only think of The Reflections, on GW, being used by Motown ( TMG) . So, this supports my theory that Motown saw potential value in old "hits" and took the masters. Others on GW were ...well, who knows..still rolling down Davison.

Look at it this way..it seems that.in 1966 , Motown didn't really want to take these masters if they didn't have value. They MAY have taken them all, but the above answer suggests that some were lost, misplaced ...and paperwork  proving legal ownership was badly handled.

Whilst these brilliant records had Clubs up and down the UK drooling in 1972, most of the GW tracks were of no use to Motown. The artists above...yes, some sales potential. But you couldn't imagine an LP on Gordy/ Motown of " A collection of16 Big GW flops" being issued. ( taking commercially here).

So , unless UMG are prepared to put a lot of effort into it, then no future Official comps will appear. Years ago, such a comp would have been the holy grail. If it was possible, some reissue company would done it. The fact that nobody has tells you that it can't be done...it would prove virtually impossible to prove ownership.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Owd Codger

[Owd Codger]

Regarding Motown's " Cavalier " approach to these GW masters, this was at a time when Motown were discarding things of quality like " Suspicion "," Forever in my heart" , " Reconsider ", " it's too late for you and me".. " Love starved heart" ..the kind of unreleased tracks that ignited the NS scene years ago. So it can be seen that these GW items were not a priority...hence their shoddy treatment

 

[Chalky]

Motown/UMG never saw any commercial benefit in their unreleased material let alone a company they bought to take out of business they were more interested in milking old hits.  It is only in recent years with and especially with the material entering the public domain if they didn't release somehow that they did anything about the material.

[Owd Codger]

There are reports that Ed Wingate wanted to get out of the music business, and he actually approached Berry Gordy with an offer to sell GW.

Motown wanted the studio,  as by 1966 they were running at maximum capacity. So it was a good business move to buy GW. It solved many problems.

I personally don't think that Gordy was worried by " competition" on a grand scale. In 1966, as we know, dozens of  Detroit labels were issuing records. Yes GW/ Ric Tic was the major Detroit competition and locally, were getting attention. But Nationally and in crossover pop terms, not much of a worry to Motown.

Producers might have been annoyed that some musicians were MIA...recording elsewhere....but not that big a problem. It made a few good lines in the SITSOM movie....rather  like old footballers/Cricketers telling stories at Sportsman' s dinners.

Of course, it's only my opinion, but I think the pressing need to stop GW is a myth. By 1966, The Marvelettes alone had more "hit "records than the entire  GW set up.

Mr Godin pushed this story in B& S. That probably gave the story more credence than anything else.

But as they say, if the myth becomes the story....print the myth.

BTW I love many of the GW/ RT tracks as much as anybody on this forum so I am  not in any way anti GW. 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Owd Codger

[Agentsmith]

On 02/06/2022 at 22:26, Owd Codger said:

After the 66 buy out, I think that it was only the Fantastic Four. Flaming Ember never joined Motown.

Staffers Richard Morris, Al Kent did join Motown. Of course Al Kent had 45s on Blue "new" Ric Tic ( post 66 buyout).

Freddie Gorman returned to Motown and joined The Originald.

J.J.  Barnes was taken on in the 66 buy out but Motown never issued anything he recorded for them.

 

Not in the States they didnt but here, UK Motown put out a 3 track featuring " Real Humdinger " ( without the string section ) 

[Owd Codger]

That is correct. TMG release due to UK demand.

But in the USA, after buy out,  there was no real demand , so Motown didn't release anything on him from his Ric Tic masters. 

JJ Barnes tells the story that Eddie Holland told him he was too similar to Marvin Gaye....the likeness on his Ric Tic 45s is uncanny on some of them.

Motown did record things on him at Hitsville, but again they never issued these tracks. CFOM in the UK features some of them.

[David Moore]

On 02/06/2022 at 21:44, Benji said:

Just wondering, which Ric Tic artists did get releases on Motown after the buy-out? I remember Edwin Starr, Fantastic Four, Flaming Embers and San Remo Strings. Anybody else?

Edit: by releases I don't necessarily mean new recordings.

J.J Barnes  had Ric Tic recordings released in the U.K. by Motown, Please Let Me & Real Humdinger

[Owd Codger]

Just dug out my Fantastic Four CD, which is a reissue of their album released on Soul after joining Motown. This album contains Ric Tic masters, and I thought I'd check out the liner notes.

Interestingly, all the groups singles on Ric Tic are mentioned. Unfortunately, the text is in Japanese, so there may well be some interesting info, but alas I can't read it.

 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Owd Codger

[Chalky]

If Motown legally bought Ric Tic/Golden World/Wingate and the publishing Myto then surely it isn't hard to find the licensee.  Enough Rix Tic etc been released on comps and 45 over the years to suggest they do have the rights.  It's probably a case like it was years ago with all their unissued stuff, they couldn't be bothered with it.  It has always been difficult to license anything Motown.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Chalky

[Eddie Hubbard]

On 07/06/2022 at 19:34, Owd Codger said:

Just dug out my Fantastic Four CD, which is a reissue of their album released on Soul after joining Motown. This album contains Ric Tic masters, and I thought I'd check out the liner notes.

Interestingly, all the groups singles on Ric Tic are mentioned. Unfortunately, the text is in Japanese, so there may well be some interesting info, but alas I can't read it.

 

 

Interesting that the version of “ Goddess Of Love “ on the LP is different to the Ric - Tic 45 ,no strings ...

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 01/06/2022 at 15:58, Solidsoul said:

Not Cd, but you will remember there was the Ric Tic Relics Tamla Motown LP with the pictures of Ric Tic records on the cover.

A proper CD of good sound quality would be a good thing.

 

I was looking at my copy of this LP and asked Elsie if she did the backing for some of the tracks.

This was her reply today

"Harlem, Agent Double O Soul And Back Street. Harlem Background Vocals were The Debonaires, Joyce Vincent, Elsie Baker, Dorothy Garland And The Holidays, Tony Gray, Robert Johnson And Willie Butch Johnson. Agent Double O Soul and Back Street was Pat Lewis, Elsie Baker, Joyce Vincent And Dorothy Garland."

Great to know after all these years.

On 01/06/2022 at 15:58, Solidsoul said:

 

 

 

On 01/06/2022 at 15:58, Solidsoul said:

 

 

 

Edited May 7 by Blackpoolsoul
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