It's what's in the groove that counts...or is it?

[Chalky]

What is the collecting scene coming to when a collector/Dj would rather pay four, five times more for a record because a repress has a different colour label.  Sometimes it doesn’t have that yet the stupid OVO brigade would stone a Dj god forbid they play a repress.

It would seem many do not understand the process behind vinyl manufacturing and that a repress, which is done from the same masters with no difference in the matrix details in the run out and is still a first issue.  It isn’t until a new master is made and a new matrix that it becomes a reissue.  A million seller will go through approximately 10 masters, maybe a few more depending on degradation and quality of the stampers.

It was once said by Motown that “It’s What’s In The Grooves That Counts” but today that could never be further from the truth.  It’s all down to the colour of the label.  Imagine how the artist feels when some fool says you cannot play that as it has a different label?

I hate the whole OVO (original vinyl only) debate, it’s been done to death a million times and I've no desire to start another topic but the collecting scene is slowly disappearing up its own backside all because some promoters or Djs have an agenda because they have spent £150 on a record and god forbid anyone playing one that costs a tenner.  It all seems to be about what you spend to get a booking, not the quality of your set.  Cheque book Djs have always been around particular more so in recent years.  They get talked about, rightly or wrongly, and this provides a promotional tool for the promoter.

Now I am not advocating bootlegs or even the playing of reissues.  I am a staunch traditionalist when it comes to the Northern Soul scene.  I wholly believe in the playing of original records.  However,  this is all about recent releases, releases designed to create an instant rarity.  Surely the artist is the one who is suffering, Try telling them you cannot play a certain record because it wasn’t done first?  Crazy.   What happened to providing for your market not a select few 100, again the artist is suffering when more sales can often be achieved.  I know the license isn’t as simple as that but the cost difference between 300 and 500 discs is very little with often a handful only needing to be sold to cover the additional costs.  I’ve heard storage space being one reason!  Surely if you believe in your product and the quality is good enough then surely it will sell and storage space isn’t a problem.

Many collectors are missing out on some really good music and it is time the labels addressed this.  It would also put a stop to the greedy sellers exploiting the situation and charging a three figure sum for something that should be £20/£30 maximum.

Lastly I’m not having a go at anyone in particular nor is this a dig at label owners who I know put in a lot of hard work, if you have been reading forums you will know where this arose and I stress I am not having a dig at anyone, rather a moan about the whole situation.  I know many don’t even bother with or even trying to secure new releases because of this, even releases that don’t sell out and it is the label who ultimately suffers.  

When it begins to come down to the colour of a label or a mark on a label, an apple being used on one recent press, then it is well and truly knackered.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Chalky

[Chalky]

A good read here about the process of how a record is made and just how many 45s one "master disc" will produce.  

https://www.classic45s.com/why45s/process.html?fbclid=IwAR2MGJ2IaYn2V2NZZ1hN9SkIL9diLU6O7592leYAVaEkUcfqV7VFg_6FAPg

Edited April 29, 2022 by Chalky

[Simon T]

53 minutes ago, Chalky said:

 

"degradation and quality of the stompers."

Well arguably that been the case since Wigan started!!!

Joking aside, you've made a great food-for-thought post.

 

 

[Chalky]

3 minutes ago, Simon T said:

 

[Mssoulie]

Great Post Chalky. They'll be some serious chin stroking going on with this one. 

[Steve G]

Is there a particular record you are thinking about Chalky? 

[Chalky]

15 minutes ago, Steve G said:

Is there a particular record you are thinking about Chalky? 

Bobby Harden was the one that made me write but there have been others, some with different colour vinyl etc.  But it's not one in particular it's the whole way it is going, the exploitation that goes with it and it can all be avoided.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Chalky

[Leicester Boy]

As ever knowledgeable and thought provoking, I personally don't care what issue it is as long as I like the record but I'm not a collector, just a punter.

[Andybellwood]

3 hours ago, Chalky said:

Bobby Harden was the one that made me write but there have been others, some with different colour vinyl etc.  But it's not one in particular it's the whole way it is going, the exploitation that goes with it and it can all be avoided.

Anyone seen the RSD release of Bobby Harden ‘feels so good ‘ ? Any difference or just more being pressed as a RSD Ltd release ? 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Andybellwood

[Mal C]

Thats an excellent track that Bobby Harden, I would add Oliver James - One and Only / Colemine as another... in fact I thnik Oliver James is a better track.

the OVO thang was always daft, but then record collecting is daft isnt it...  I sold most of my 100 Club Anni 45's some years ago, just kept my favorites, but I have to say I was made up when Paramount four came out on Kent select, I went to that nighter, so why would I pay 100 odd quid when I can get it for a tenner? Kent Select does not seem to get the attention of greedy sellers, except for Darrow Fletcher - Love Is My Secret Weapon, so you are always safe with Kent records.

It does seem though if you miss these new releases at $10 bucks you could have to fork out, and if you do, and then it gets a run in grren and purple vinyl, well you have been 'had' havent you...  that I dont like, so I dont buy em at inflated prices...

good post and a subject that knarks allot of folks off....

Edited April 29, 2022 by Mal C

[Andybellwood]

‘Kent Select does not seem to get the attention of greedy sellers, except for Darrow Fletcher - Love Is My Secret Weapon, so you are always safe with Kent records.’

Sadly not so Mal , there’s a few on that label that now attract 3 figures . 

[Mal C]

really...? how come they always hit 3 figres, why not just 50 or 75 quid.... well we know why because 'Money' has always been an overiding part of record collecting, which at its silliest see's folks paying hundreds more for a different coloured labels, so there you go, fiull circle...

[Simon T]

23 minutes ago, Mal C said:

a different coloured labels,

labels must be more important to some buyers than the vinyl - just go to auction sites and look about the 'condition' descriptions, labels condition seems to prevail nowadays.

i was one looking through some sales boxes  and the seller was extolling the condition of the label on a knackered record to a potential punter who retorted "yeah, but i don't want to play the f***ing label, do i?

[Jez Jones]

18 hours ago, Chalky said:

What is the collecting scene coming to when a collector/Dj would rather pay four, five times more for a record because a repress has a different colour label.  Sometimes it doesn’t have that yet the stupid OVO brigade would stone a Dj god forbid they play a repress.

It would seem many do not understand the process behind vinyl manufacturing and that a repress, which is done from the same masters with no difference in the matrix details in the run out and is still a first issue.  It isn’t until a new master is made and a new matrix that it becomes a reissue.  A million seller will go through approximately 10 masters, maybe a few more depending on degradation and quality of the stampers.

It was once said by Motown that “It’s What’s In The Grooves That Counts” but today that could never be further from the truth.  It’s all down to the colour of the label.  Imagine how the artist feels when some fool says you cannot play that as it has a different label?

I hate the whole OVO (original vinyl only) debate, it’s been done to death a million times and I've no desire to start another topic but the collecting scene is slowly disappearing up its own backside all because some promoters or Djs have an agenda because they have spent £150 on a record and god forbid anyone playing one that costs a tenner.  It all seems to be about what you spend to get a booking, not the quality of your set.  Cheque book Djs have always been around particular more so in recent years.  They get talked about, rightly or wrongly, and this provides a promotional tool for the promoter.

Now I am not advocating bootlegs or even the playing of reissues.  I am a staunch traditionalist when it comes to the Northern Soul scene.  I wholly believe in the playing of original records.  However,  this is all about recent releases, releases designed to create an instant rarity.  Surely the artist is the one who is suffering, Try telling them you cannot play a certain record because it wasn’t done first?  Crazy.   What happened to providing for your market not a select few 100, again the artist is suffering when more sales can often be achieved.  I know the license isn’t as simple as that but the cost difference between 300 and 500 discs is very little with often a handful only needing to be sold to cover the additional costs.  I’ve heard storage space being one reason!  Surely if you believe in your product and the quality is good enough then surely it will sell and storage space isn’t a problem.

Many collectors are missing out on some really good music and it is time the labels addressed this.  It would also put a stop to the greedy sellers exploiting the situation and charging a three figure sum for something that should be £20/£30 maximum.

Lastly I’m not having a go at anyone in particular nor is this a dig at label owners who I know put in a lot of hard work, if you have been reading forums you will know where this arose and I stress I am not having a dig at anyone, rather a moan about the whole situation.  I know many don’t even bother with or even trying to secure new releases because of this, even releases that don’t sell out and it is the label who ultimately suffers.  

When it begins to come down to the colour of a label or a mark on a label, an apple being used on one recent press, then it is well and truly knackered.

Good post Karl...and agree more accessibility to some of the new stuff would create more chances to them getting played out imo

The promotional tool using DJ's reps is deffo becoming a thing. We used to promote the 'event' at one time

Influential imaginative DJ's are one thing....DJ's with expensive records are completely different

This coloured vinyl fetish mmmmmm

[Mark R]

It all becomes a joke!

What about the 45's that everyone clamours over, that have been around for years as CD tracks.  Why the hell would you base whether you like a piece of music on what format it's on............but now I'm sounding like a broken record (  ) as I'm always banging this drum and I don't know why as it doesn't affect me.  Doesn't stop me considering it as complete madness though!!

I don't geddit, but in music/collecting terms I'm a completely different animal to many on here.

 

Cheers,

Mark R

[Chalky]

8 minutes ago, Mark R said:

It all becomes a joke!

What about the 45's that everyone clamours over, that have been around for years as CD tracks.  Why the hell would you base whether you like a piece of music on what format it's on............but now I'm sounding like a broken record (  ) as I'm always banging this drum and I don't know why as it doesn't affect me.  Doesn't stop me considering it as complete madness though!!

I don't geddit, but in music/collecting terms I'm a completely different animal to many on here.

 

Cheers,

Mark R

Have to agree Mark, just don't get the CD thing, old or new releases.  As I said above you would be castigated for playing the download of a new release even though its released at the same time as the vinyl...and CD.  Format shouldn't matter with new music or indeed unissued music released by the likes of Kent.  It deprives the scene and the dancers of some quality music.

[Solidsoul]

Some good points raised in this topic.

Those camara's in venue's that show the dj's decks onto a big screen don't help. 

It plays right into the egotistical dj's ability to show off. 

 

[Andybellwood]

2 hours ago, Mal C said:

really...? how come they always hit 3 figres, why not just 50 or 75 quid.... well we know why because 'Money' has always been an overiding part of record collecting, which at its silliest see's folks paying hundreds more for a different coloured labels, so there you go, fiull circle...

https://www.raresoulman.co.uk/141715-a-broken-heart-cries-how-can-i-go-on-without-you.html

 

https://www.discogs.com/sell/item/1896372875

 

https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/2458048?ev=rb

Edited April 29, 2022 by Andybellwood

[Mal C]

Ive got all those Andy, I could go home rich...

[Andybellwood]

4 minutes ago, Mal C said:

Ive got all those Andy, I could go home rich...

Another one comes immediately to mind 

https://www.discogs.com/release/2882947-The-Other-Brothers-2-Bettye-Swann-Nobody-But-Me-The-Dance-Is-Over

[El Corol]

47 minutes ago, Andybellwood said:

 

https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/2458048?ev=rb

Vs the original release in terms of cost.

https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/2510289?ev=rb

 

But it comes back to format. The Northern Scene has always been skewed towards singles with some exceptions, nowadays the LP tracks if popular end up being reissued as singles and end up more expensive than the original Lp’s  in a lot of cases, as above. I get the argument that DJs prefer to carry/cue/play singles but for non DJ collectors why she’ll out the xtra? Though now I can’t square the argument as I buy released singles and not the LPs in the majority of cases when buying originals. I guess we all have our cut off point and with some that cut off point is further than mine. 
 

I agree with the above point of the scene being deprived of great sounds because of format, that is self defeating.

Edited April 29, 2022 by El Corol
Amendment

[Tomangoes]

Not defending it, but understand it.

Oddly enough though, there may be strict lines drawn on what label format needs to be played to remain in the upper enchelance of ovo dj circles...but the boundaries of what's in the grooves is often less "policed"

A crap tune is still a crap tune, even if it's rare as hens teeth and into 5 digit values!

Ed

[Chalky]

22 minutes ago, Tomangoes said:

Not defending it, but understand it.

Oddly enough though, there may be strict lines drawn on what label format needs to be played to remain in the upper enchelance of ovo dj circles...but the boundaries of what's in the grooves is often less "policed"

A crap tune is still a crap tune, even if it's rare as hens teeth and into 5 digit values!

Ed

I think you missed the whole point of the post, it's not about whether a record is crap or not, every record made has its lovers as well as its detractors.

As for the upper echelons, there aren't many I would pay good money to listen too these days, most are playing the same boring sets we have heard for decades and paying thousands and thousands to keep themselves there.  There are some with some of the best records in the world overlooked and rarely booked in the UK.....but that's a different argument.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Chalky

[Mark R]

4 hours ago, D9 Ktf said:

Some good points raised in this topic.

Those camara's in venue's that show the dj's decks onto a big screen don't help. 

It plays right into the egotistical dj's ability to show off. 

 

Don't get me started on that bullshit!!

The plot has been lost I'm afraid!

 

Cheers,

MarkR

[Billywhizz]

can you imagine, dj and after butch and soul sam and now i go on playing a box full of boots. Every 45 is over 5 grand, someone said 'you're playing boots Billy' then i say 'well its all in the grooves'. I wonder what there reply would be. lol ps fook off 

[Leicester Boy]

Went to my local soul night last night. Great tunes , bit of a dance, lovely people and a few beers, all original spins.. don't know don't care.

[Geeselad]

48 minutes ago, Leicester Boy said:

Went to my local soul night last night. Great tunes , bit of a dance, lovely people and a few beers, all original spins.. don't know don't care.

Wonderful insight, go post a pic of thee Sen holding a pint, with a hat on and pointing, on Facebook, there not enough of that and far too much of discussion about music on here! . Feeling a little facetious myself this morning.

[Geeselad]

Seems your valid points are a little too technical for the comprehension of some on here.  

[Leicester Boy]

4 minutes ago, Geeselad said:

Wonderful insight, go post a pic of thee Sen holding a pint, with a hat on and pointing, on Facebook, there not enough of that and far too much of discussion about music on here! . Feeling a little facetious myself this morning.

Sorry I thought forums were for general comments. I shall bow to your superior intelligence.lighten up.

[Hooker1951]

I’m with Karl on this one it should always be down to the quality of full set playing and pleasing the punters who love NS and have paid for that privilege , not for a box full of different coloured centres on most occasions only mediocre tunes that should decide who a good DJ is? And wether he is booked, I never minded following the so called big name DJ,s I always played an honest set depending on the crowd in the venue, That I felt was my privilege and duty to  do, It is what’s in the groove and how you tell the jokes that matters, pity a lot of people on the scene have forget that. I did at one venue following a so called big name DJ have him boasting that he had 8000 singles on all the best labels my reply was try playing them in an hour because that’s all you’ve got to make an impact, Soul music is a great leveller it can tell you a lot about the DJ  whose playing , the energy they are giving out and what they are getting back is definitely in the grooves and how the grooves are played, Anyway hope you all have a great times in the future and stay healthy

.

God Bless

ML

[Leicester Boy]

1 minute ago, Hooker1951 said:

I’m with Karl on this one it should always be down to the quality of full set playing and pleasing the punters who love NS and have paid for that privilege , not for a box full of different coloured centres on most occasions only mediocre tunes that should decide who a good DJ is? And wether he is booked, I never minded following the so called big name DJ,s I always played an honest set depending on the crowd in the venue, That I felt was my privilege and duty to  do, It is what’s in the groove and how you tell the jokes that matters, pity a lot of people on the scene have forget that. I did at one venue following a so called big name DJ have him boasting that he had 8000 singles on all the best labels my reply was try playing them in an hour because that’s all you’ve got to make an impact, Soul music is a great leveller it can tell you a lot about the DJ  whose playing , the energy they are giving out and what they are getting back is definitely in the grooves and how the grooves are played, Anyway hope you all have a great times in the future and stay healthy

.

God Bless

ML

Absolutely this.

[Ratt]

Can't satisfaction with a DJ still be judged by how the dancefloor reacts to his tracks? I might be missing something, but it seems to me that most punters pay for a night out to have a great time, not caring so much about original vinyl at all. I go to nights where it's rare that more than 6 people are dancing, right up until a killer beat tingles the senses of the larger crowd and bang, it's like old times again, and the floor heaves. To me a good DJ is one who likes to see the floor this way, so keeps with the feel of tracks that do indeed fill the floor. It makes me feel like the door tax is worth however much if most of the night is a dancers night. Original vinyl is never one of my concerns. 

[Jez Jones]

4 hours ago, Leicester Boy said:

Sorry I thought forums were for general comments. I shall bow to your superior intelligence.lighten up.

They are..but I think you should put your comment in the events review section ..can't see it has anything much to do with the original post BUT i could be wrong !!!!!!!!! so feel free to correct me !!!

Edited April 30, 2022 by Jez Jones

[Leicester Boy]

5 minutes ago, Jez Jones said:

They are..but I think you should put your comment in the events review section ..can't see it has anything much to do with the original post BUT i could be wrong !!!!!!!!! so feel free to correct me !!!

Never dream of correcting a man who knows everything

[Chalky]

6 hours ago, Billywhizz said:

can you imagine, dj and after butch and soul sam and now i go on playing a box full of boots. Every 45 is over 5 grand, someone said 'you're playing boots Billy' then i say 'well its all in the grooves'. I wonder what there reply would be. lol ps fook off 

Totally different discussion though.  I’m not talking about boots, following Butch or a anyone else for that matter.  I’m not even talking about Djing really just collecting. Again you seem to miss the point of the discussion as well. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Chalky

[Geeselad]

1 hour ago, Leicester Boy said:

Never dream of correcting a man who knows everything

For someone who 'dont know, don't care' your spending a lot of time looking at this thread. What's that called? Er trolling I think? , And any other light hearted emoji out there. . 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Geeselad

[Mssoulie]

23 hours ago, Hooker1951 said:

I’m with Karl on this one it should always be down to the quality of full set playing and pleasing the punters who love NS and have paid for that privilege , not for a box full of different coloured centres on most occasions only mediocre tunes that should decide who a good DJ is? And wether he is booked, I never minded following the so called big name DJ,s I always played an honest set depending on the crowd in the venue, That I felt was my privilege and duty to  do, It is what’s in the groove and how you tell the jokes that matters, pity a lot of people on the scene have forget that. I did at one venue following a so called big name DJ have him boasting that he had 8000 singles on all the best labels my reply was try playing them in an hour because that’s all you’ve got to make an impact, Soul music is a great leveller it can tell you a lot about the DJ  whose playing , the energy they are giving out and what they are getting back is definitely in the grooves and how the grooves are played, Anyway hope you all have a great times in the future and stay healthy

.

God Bless

ML

I think you got that on the nail for my way of thinking. 

Hugh. 

[Kev John]

Look back on this  record relased 2014 

This is what we call What's in the Groove & in the realms of @Chalky original post 

https://www.discogs.com/master/648279-The-Soulmates-Im-Really-Gonna-Miss-You-People-We-Gotta-Do-Better

[Chalky]

Back on topic and the down side to this different label crap etc is Dala missed out on a sale with the buyer I would guess being happy to pay three times the retail price and get one of a dealer on discogs?

A repress is the first issue and stays that way until it is deleted. When new masters are made with new matrix details it then becomes a reissue.  
 

It is high time it went back to being about the music.  That goes for the labels, collectors and Djs.  The silly idea it isn’t original because a second run was done with a different label or wax is just plain daft, a change of mentality is needed by all. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Chalky

[Mark R]

4 hours ago, Chalky said:

Back on topic and the down side to this different label crap etc is Dala missed out on a sale with the buyer I would guess being happy to pay three times the retail price and get one of a dealer on discogs?

A repress is the first issue and stays that way until it is deleted. When new masters are made with new matrix details it then becomes a reissue.  
 

It is high time it went back to being about the music.  That goes for the labels, collectors and Djs.  The silly idea it isn’t original because a second run was done with a different label or wax is just plain daft, a change of mentality is needed by all. 

The voice of reason from someone respected on this scene.......remember it's about the music!!

 

Cheers, 

Mark R

[Andybellwood]

With Chalks mentioning the Dala release, I had previously contacted my local record shop who in turn had previously contacted their distributor. Apparently it was also a 2022 UK Record Store Day release and the national distributor had only 13 left in stock when it was originally able to be included on an official  retailers order (but with no guarantee of actually receiving any for RSD ). No remaining stock now available post RSD.

All very frustrating….so went back to Billy at Dala who sent me a list of UK outlets that Secretly (Dala’s distributor ) sold their stock to. Surprise surprise none available at rrp ! 

Guess this is what is fuelling demand and prices on the www.  at £60 plus. 
 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Andybellwood

[Ageing Face]

I know things have moved on drastically in the past 50 years since my youth, but in the early 70’s a label to me was just an indication of whether I may or may not like a track. I’d go to Violet May record shop in Sheffield where she would have the records in boxes categorised by label, I’d ask mrs Barkworth politely for Okeh, Ric-Tic or Motown subsidiary boxes (she wasn’t keen on you leafing through them) as I’d got others on those labels that I liked. It didn’t matter to me then what the design of the label was or if the Okeh label had la large 45 or a small one & I can’t comprehend now what difference it makes 

[Jez Jones]

27 minutes ago, Ageing Face said:

I know things have moved on drastically in the past 50 years since my youth, but in the early 70’s a label to me was just an indication of whether I may or may not like a track. I’d go to Violet May record shop in Sheffield where she would have the records in boxes categorised by label, I’d ask mrs Barkworth politely for Okeh, Ric-Tic or Motown subsidiary boxes (she wasn’t keen on you leafing through them) as I’d got others on those labels that I liked. It didn’t matter to me then what the design of the label was or if the Okeh label had la large 45 or a small one & I can’t comprehend now what difference it makes 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Jez Jones
mistake

[Dean Rudland]

On 28/04/2022 at 21:29, Chalky said:

What is the collecting scene coming to when a collector/Dj would rather pay four, five times more for a record because a repress has a different colour label.  Sometimes it doesn’t have that yet the stupid OVO brigade would stone a Dj god forbid they play a repress.

It would seem many do not understand the process behind vinyl manufacturing and that a repress, which is done from the same masters with no difference in the matrix details in the run out and is still a first issue.  It isn’t until a new master is made and a new matrix that it becomes a reissue.  A million seller will go through approximately 10 masters, maybe a few more depending on degradation and quality of the stampers.

It was once said by Motown that “It’s What’s In The Grooves That Counts” but today that could never be further from the truth.  It’s all down to the colour of the label.  Imagine how the artist feels when some fool says you cannot play that as it has a different label?

I hate the whole OVO (original vinyl only) debate, it’s been done to death a million times and I've no desire to start another topic but the collecting scene is slowly disappearing up its own backside all because some promoters or Djs have an agenda because they have spent £150 on a record and god forbid anyone playing one that costs a tenner.  It all seems to be about what you spend to get a booking, not the quality of your set.  Cheque book Djs have always been around particular more so in recent years.  They get talked about, rightly or wrongly, and this provides a promotional tool for the promoter.

Now I am not advocating bootlegs or even the playing of reissues.  I am a staunch traditionalist when it comes to the Northern Soul scene.  I wholly believe in the playing of original records.  However,  this is all about recent releases, releases designed to create an instant rarity.  Surely the artist is the one who is suffering, Try telling them you cannot play a certain record because it wasn’t done first?  Crazy.   What happened to providing for your market not a select few 100, again the artist is suffering when more sales can often be achieved.  I know the license isn’t as simple as that but the cost difference between 300 and 500 discs is very little with often a handful only needing to be sold to cover the additional costs.  I’ve heard storage space being one reason!  Surely if you believe in your product and the quality is good enough then surely it will sell and storage space isn’t a problem.

Many collectors are missing out on some really good music and it is time the labels addressed this.  It would also put a stop to the greedy sellers exploiting the situation and charging a three figure sum for something that should be £20/£30 maximum.

Lastly I’m not having a go at anyone in particular nor is this a dig at label owners who I know put in a lot of hard work, if you have been reading forums you will know where this arose and I stress I am not having a dig at anyone, rather a moan about the whole situation.  I know many don’t even bother with or even trying to secure new releases because of this, even releases that don’t sell out and it is the label who ultimately suffers.  

When it begins to come down to the colour of a label or a mark on a label, an apple being used on one recent press, then it is well and truly knackered.

Chalky

You know that everything you say is correct, and I have quite a lot of thoughts about this, probably too many for a bank holiday Monday, so instead I'll give an illustration of the madness of collectors.

When we did the first Kevin Fingier record we ordered 300 - I can't remember the reason, probably over-caution - and it quickly became obvious that we had got this badly wrong. So before release date we had ordered another 300 and then another 300, and then finally a final 300 that arrived a week after release date.

Every record was from the same stampers, and looked indistinguishable from any other record in the batch, yet some people heard that there was a second pressing and I had people demanding that we tell them the difference and insisting that they got the first pressing.

We also saw people selling copies of the 'first pressing' at an inflated rate - which was interesting as I had 900 in our office before the first copies were in more than a handful of people's hand (maybe 10 people).

People are so keen for rarity it seems they'll do anything to convince themselves that it is out there

 

[Chalky]

17 minutes ago, Dean Rudland said:

Chalky

You know that everything you say is correct, and I have quite a lot of thoughts about this, probably too many for a bank holiday Monday, so instead I'll give an illustration of the madness of collectors.

When we did the first Kevin Fingier record we ordered 300 - I can't remember the reason, probably over-caution - and it quickly became obvious that we had got this badly wrong. So before release date we had ordered another 300 and then another 300, and then finally a final 300 that arrived a week after release date.

Every record was from the same stampers, and looked indistinguishable from any other record in the batch, yet some people heard that there was a second pressing and I had people demanding that we tell them the difference and insisting that they got the first pressing.

We also saw people selling copies of the 'first pressing' at an inflated rate - which was interesting as I had 900 in our office before the first copies were in more than a handful of people's hand (maybe 10 people).

People are so keen for rarity it seems they'll do anything to convince themselves that it is out there

 

Thanks Dean, thats illustrates my point exactly, it is barmy isn’t it.  I don’t get just what they think they are getting from this, some sort of ego kick in front of their mates when behind the decks?  It just show how ill informed and lacking education on the matter they are. 

[Dean Rudland]

3 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Thanks Dean, thats illustrates my point exactly, it is barmy isn’t it.  I don’t get just what they think they are getting from this, some sort of ego kick in front of their mates when behind the decks?  It just show how ill informed and lacking education on the matter they are. 

It is, and of course it means that it is incredibly tempting for labels to create artificial rarities and charge over the top amounts for them. 

I've seen some records being limited to a 150 copies at £50 which is more income than we can take for 1000 records at a more standard price. 

There's no excuse for prices that high, but I understand it. Most 7s sell between 400 and 1000, so it might be easier to create a rarity and earn the money on lesser numbers rather than being left with stock. 

I hate the idea of artificial rarities, but I understand the temptations.

 

 

[Happy Feet]

As you say Chalky , the sound is now unimportant ,the value takes precedence , and if released in 2022 say 300 copies , in 5 yrs time it may be 50 copies , in 10 yrs 25 copies but will there be anyone alive who wants them ? , Most records if reissued have slightly different features on the label  a slightly lower teardrop on the Penrose label for instance , but why don't the companies involved just release more in the 1st place,  why have only 350 or 500 pressed in this day and age , doesn't make sense , and they can't be making a living from these limited releases , the profit is only from resales , I actually contacted the company who released Carmy Love and sent them the discogs page showing it for sale at 120 euros , not interested and definitely no chance of a repress , what do these artists do between releases go busking ?

Maybe just thinking aloud , it's time for these companies to grow a pair and have confidence in the product , maybe this is the cause of so many pre orders so they can gauge the possible sales , I know and you know if advertised as limited , it will sell out even if it's piss poor, and to be honest a lot of great tunes  worth half as much and deemed not worthy with only 1 issue , greed nothing more , as for OVO etc DJing  surely is about entertaining not the same old sounds but 20 times the cost , still new tunes available from the likes of Juno records  ie Oliver James ,One And Only , yellow vinyl for £6.50 + P+P , 

Rarity over quality , surely that's not what the Northern Soul scene was built on ,yes play something new and eventually everybody can get a copy ,if enough issued ,cover ups where apparently to prevent bootlegging , surely we are all entitled to a copy and then hopefully the artists and all involved will be more enthusiastic to make more new exciting tunes , I personally think that cover ups encouraged bootlegging and helped to rip off the artists etc involved , Frank Wilson sold 10k copies as Eddie Foster it's a wonder when finally issued it sold any at the time .

I'm not saying exclusives should be shunned but surely no tune was made for only one pair of ears , and as you say , if demand is there press more it's still the same master and sounds the same , it's the promos of well known tunes reissued for possibly the 5th time that puzzle me .

 

[Andybellwood]

11 hours ago, Dean Rudland said:

It is, and of course it means that it is incredibly tempting for labels to create artificial rarities and charge over the top amounts for them. 

I've seen some records being limited to a 150 copies at £50 which is more income than we can take for 1000 records at a more standard price. 

There's no excuse for prices that high, but I understand it. Most 7s sell between 400 and 1000, so it might be easier to create a rarity and earn the money on lesser numbers rather than being left with stock. 

I hate the idea of artificial rarities, but I understand the temptations.

 

 

Dean , no disagreement from me but some confusion may arise in the eyes of buyers when a particular release is advertised as ‘limited’ but no numbers on how ‘limited’ . 

Said 45 advertised via label quickly sells out . Buyer who then tries to buy greeted with ‘sold out ‘ , ‘no stock ‘ , ‘unavailable’ etc with only alternative at that time to go to the re sale market which generates a higher cost driven by demand at that time. Label then gets more stock , same price as before and cycle repeats . 

[Chalky]

Stop advertising as limited edition.  As soon as you say limited edition people who don’t want the record or even like the record buy one so they can rip someone else off. It should be strictly one per customer too to give others a chance. 
 

You see those out to exploit when they ask “how many copies”.  It shouldn’t matter, the quality should be the over riding factor to a sale, not how many are produced, what label, what colour vinyl etc. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Chalky

[Dean Rudland]

4 hours ago, Andybellwood said:

Dean , no disagreement from me but some confusion may arise in the eyes of buyers when a particular release is advertised as ‘limited’ but no numbers on how ‘limited’ . 

Said 45 advertised via label quickly sells out . Buyer who then tries to buy greeted with ‘sold out ‘ , ‘no stock ‘ , ‘unavailable’ etc with only alternative at that time to go to the re sale market which generates a higher cost driven by demand at that time. Label then gets more stock , same price as before and cycle repeats . 

I get that, and with the example I gave we made very clear there was more stock coming at every point.

Truth is all of these records are limited.

I doubt many sell more than a 1000 copies, and the best sellers usually top out at somewhere close to 2000.

I also think that a proportion of those sales are always from people that hope that the record will go up in value.

I do get the feeling that buyers then feel disappointed and under-value a record if that sits in the racks at the same price it was initially sold for.

As if the record is a disaster because the label pressed enough stock

.