Conspiracy?

[Markw]

Mark,

It was Lee Harvey Oswald , it was in the papers. 

link

If you believe that, you'll believe John Vincent is raking over grievances from 30 years ago...................or maybe he isn't? Who knows? Who cares?!!

[Guest Johnny One Trout]

And I thoroughly intend staying this way......

......hang on, that makes me sound a bit.....

link

You are a bit :graywanker:

[Rob Wigley]

THEY CAN ONLY SUE YOU IF ITS A LIE, WHAT ABOUT WIGAN DJS GETTING SACKED FOR BOOTLEGGING ? SPEEDED UP TURNTABLES, STOP PUSHING AT THE BACK AND ALL THE LITTLE POPETTES THAT VISITED THAT LOCKED OFFICE IN THE BACK OF THE CASINO ?

I ONCE HEARD A FEMALE SAY TO A CERTAIN CASINO OFFICAL "IF YOU DON'T SORT IT OUT I'LL TELL THEM WHAT GOES OFF IN YOUR OFFICE !"

YES SHE IS STILL ON THE SCENE !

[Guest Soultown andy]

I went to wigan and and im sure like all the big venues of the day loads of bullshit went on behind the scenes . It was fuckin years ago who gives a shit,theres enough bullshit going on today to contend with so if theres something on your mind john spit it out m8.Its todays scene we should be sortin out,just my opinion though.

PS in those days didnt care about what went on behind the scene,had a great time at casino.

[Guest]

Are you writing a book John?? If so great. I was only old enough to be allowed to go toa niter in 1978. All my mates said Wigan had died on its arse and it was a waste of time going, so to my eternal shame I didnt even make the one journey just to satisfy my curiosity. Even so I dont buy into the Wigan/Mecca were the only clubs of any note after the Toch and Wheel had closed. I love to hear anecdotes of any clubs be they nites or niters.

It would be great to read a book on Northern Soul that didnt bang on about an IMO OVERGROUND club. For goodness sake my 70 year old Aunty knew about the Casino. Hardly the defining of 'our' "underground" scene is it?

link

Whatever happened after the TV cameras went in, you can't say the early days weren't good ones. No matter what's been around since that point, even in the leaner years - it's all been post Wigan.

Did those of us who went there in the early days give a damn about any politics. The people I hung around with went for the music and to dance be it Wigan, Mecca, Ritz, Cats, Cleethorpes, Samantha's . Guess the same would be said by many others wether they meant wheel, torch, va-va's etc

Gaye

[Guest BIGBOY]

bigboy - can i ask that when you do reveal the truth that you do so in a straightforward manner. not all of us are old enough to have attended wigan & it gets mad confusing trying to keep up with all these different djs names & venues

thanks

ps i really dont understand what is going on here, can someone pm me!

link

just going to have dinner then some info will be on its way.

[Guest]

just going to have dinner then some info will be on its way.

link

John leave them in suspense......just tell us local lads at the Polish.......

[Dave]

I am a bit surprised this thread has extended to a second page...best way to deal with attention seeking kids is to ignore them

I did wonder if the two upcoming events in Sheffield had anything to do with the timing of this....but then I thought: "Nah, don't be so cynical. Sheffield- not Stoke"

[Guest BIGBOY]

I've read Winstanley's work of fiction called 'Soul Survivors' if that's what you mean. He mentioned getting records from his uncle in Fort Lauderdale.. Yeah?

Now stop teasing us, John, and get the hell on with it.

You have issues...

...share them. Flirt. 

link

OK here we go, if you are not interested in the scene in 74-76 when it was at its greatest then don't bother reading any further........

And before I go any further just a few facts, the first AN I ever visited was totally underground the second I visited was the same, if I have any issues then it is about this over commercialism of the scene.

The club I ran from 1970 -76 was as you all perhaps know was Samanthas in Sheffield, one of the best things I ever read in a review was that the club quietly got on with things and this was even underlined in print by the great D Godin at the time. My belief from my first visit to a club in 1964 was that it was an underground scene, it was this aspect that inspired me the most which is what I set out to emulate.

There were obviously other prime examples toward the end of the sixties, the original wheel in manchester, the torch, the cats in wolverhampton, the pendulum in manchester, and just before wigan there was va va's. Ok I have not mentioned every club just a handful of the well known ones, but one thing stood out about all these clubs was that they had that underground feel.

When wigan opened it had it as well, and it is safe to say that until mid 1975 it kept that special feel, but then totally lost it by the end of 76.

This downfall (my opinion) was brought about by the greed for profit, it did not matter anymore the numbers kept coming and in any commercial operation it is all about bums on seats. I honestly believed when RW started it his intentions were to create a brilliant an which all credit to him he managed to achieve in the early days.

Do you honestly believe the owner the manager were interested in ns?

But anyway to talk about Soul Survivors,(a better title would have been soul profiteers) the book makes me spit blood,

I think the author must have been in different club to me, because the vast majority of stuff is invalid!

I mean take for example Russ states that when he played the Poppies - pain in my heart which, note he only played from the album where it was titled the love we knew. He then states in the book that the poppies changed the title on the single in line with what he covered it as!

The uncle in fort lauderdale was interesting, I don't think I could ever disprove the uncle but I think very little vinyl was coming from him, the majority was being supplied by Simon Soussan. Simon trod on every bodies toes in the states to the extent he was threatened by the mafia after he bootlegged a record that they had interests in.

Russ and simon obviously had a constant line of communication because a soon as a record started to go big then lo and behold the pressings arrived and were being sold upstairs.

One erstwhile dj tried to take the shortcut went to the states saw simon managed to get some stuff of him, first night back played Eddie Foster, russ went mad, although this dj had paid big money for it the simon pressings arrived the following week much to the dismay of the dj.

Another classic in the book - we discussed back stage every saturday what we were going to play, bollocks! More like the current batch of emi discs from simon had arrived and you were given some to play!

Needless to say I did not go down this route at all.

Is it called selective memory? I think once you have altered the story you start to believe in it yourself?

Do you know that a lot of the big records that were played at wigan for the first time were on emi discs.

An example of this was willie hutch love runs out, it appeared with a cover up title played by russ, the second week levine turns up and says I think that is willie hutch - brilliant good old Ian, anyway some months down the road, the record now fairly big but stilled played on emi disc, gets joined on the decks one night by an original copy played by me supplied by john anderson - strange isn't it.

There was a story at the time that simon had tapped into a great collection in the states where he was allowed to borrow things for a fee,

hence emi disc played at wigan but no original.

The nonsense that went on..........................

[Guest]

John Vincent hmm, could you please tell me why so many instrumentals were played down the 100 club?

[Guest BIGBOY]

John Vincent hmm, could you please tell me why so many instrumentals were played down the 100 club?

link

can you please tell me why you are called mistress of the universe????

[Guest]

Not really interested in past politics, but always interested to read after the events truth, no doubt plenty of other things happening on the scene today will one day come out too

[Guest]

It's a joke John, myself and several others on here play in the freebasing section and we all have silly names and stuff including photos which we change once a week, just a bit of fun

[Guest]

Dare I ask why your called big boy? ^_^

[Guest ShaneH]

Dare I ask why your called big boy?  ^_^ 

link

cos it sounds better than 'little man' i suppose?

Shane

[Guest]

[Guest martyn]

"although this dj had paid big money for it the simon pressings arrived the following week much to the dismay of the dj."

I remember a much dimayed DJ at an All-Dayer at Central Hall Kettering (late 76),who had just been told John Howard-The Chase is On had just been pressed .............Yes the pressing thing had reached a point where IMO it was wrecking the scene.

[Guest BIGBOY]

Dare I ask why your called big boy?  ^_^ 

link

why do you think, mistress

[Guest Tommy]

why do you think, mistress

link

If you were visiting clubs in 1964 (the year my Grandmother was born), then your far to old to be flirting with Janine.

Give it a rest Vincent.

All the Best,

Tommy.

[Guest]

cos it sounds better than 'little man' i suppose? 

Shane

link

Oi

[Guest ShaneH]

Oi 

link

I am only playing with words nothing personal. I can't say too much cos i will not be allowed in tonight!

Shane

[Guest]

I am only playing with words nothing personal. I can't say too much cos i will not be allowed in tonight!

Shane

link

Oh, thought you'd been talking to my wife

[Guest ShaneH]

Oh, thought you'd been talking to my wife 

link

Shane

[Ernie Andrews]

OK here we go, if you are not interested in the scene in 74-76 when it was at its greatest then don't bother reading any further........

And before I go any further just a few facts, the first AN I ever visited was totally underground the second I visited was the same, if I have any issues then it is about this over commercialism of the scene.

The club I ran from 1970 -76 was as you all perhaps know was Samanthas in Sheffield, one of the best things I ever read in a review was that the club quietly got on with things and this was even underlined in print by the great D Godin at the time. My belief from my first visit to a club in 1964 was that it was an underground scene, it was this aspect that inspired me the most which is what I set out to emulate.

There were obviously other prime examples toward the end of the sixties, the original wheel in manchester, the torch, the cats in wolverhampton, the pendulum in manchester, and just before wigan there was va va's. Ok I have not mentioned every club just a handful of the well known ones, but one thing stood out about all these clubs was that they had that underground feel.

When wigan opened it had it as well, and it is safe to say that until mid 1975 it kept that special feel, but then totally lost it by the end of 76.

This downfall (my opinion) was brought about by the greed for profit, it did not matter anymore the numbers kept coming and in any commercial operation it is all about bums on seats. I honestly believed when RW started it his intentions were to create a brilliant an which all credit to him he managed to achieve in the early days.

Do you honestly believe the owner the manager were interested in ns?

But anyway to talk about Soul Survivors,(a better title would have been soul profiteers) the book makes me spit blood,

I think the author must have been in different club to me, because the vast majority of stuff is invalid!

I mean take for example Russ states that when he played the Poppies - pain in my heart which, note he only played from the album where it was titled the love we knew. He then states in the book that the poppies changed the title on the single in line with what he covered it as!

The uncle in fort lauderdale was interesting, I don't think I could ever disprove the uncle but I think very little vinyl was coming from him, the majority was being supplied by Simon Soussan. Simon trod on every bodies toes in the states to the extent he was threatened by the mafia after he bootlegged a record that they had interests in.

Russ and simon obviously had a constant line of communication because a soon as a record started to go big then lo and behold the pressings arrived and were being sold upstairs.

One erstwhile dj tried to take the shortcut went to the states saw simon managed to get some stuff of him, first night back played Eddie Foster, russ went mad, although this dj had paid big money for it the simon pressings arrived the following week much to the dismay of the dj.

Another classic in the book - we discussed back stage every saturday what we were going to play, bollocks! More like the current batch of emi discs from simon had arrived and you were given some to play!

Needless to say I did not go down this route at all.

Is it called selective memory? I think once you have altered the story you start to believe in it yourself?

Do you know that a lot of the big records that were played at wigan for the first time were on emi discs.

An example of this was willie hutch love runs out, it appeared with a cover up title played by russ, the second week levine turns up and says I think that is willie hutch - brilliant good old Ian, anyway some months down the road, the record now fairly big but stilled played on emi disc, gets joined on the decks one night by an original copy played by me supplied by john anderson - strange isn't it.

There was a story at the time that simon had tapped into a great collection in the states where he was allowed to borrow things for a fee,

hence emi disc played at wigan but no original.

The nonsense that went on..........................

link

Well I like this debate because you get a different perspective than the book which in IMO is half truth. I had a brief fling with pressing up 45s and it was rife and everyone including the cats bollocks was trying to do it. Mind you what Im more interested in is IF your handle is BIG BOY - then what were you doing at the back of the stage at Wigan with you know who!

[wendy]

big boy - so what you're saying is that originals didnt get played at wigan (for the 1st few years anyway) but that the djs were playing bootlegs? & they werent picking out their own records, they were handed the 45s & told what to play. then depending on the popularity of the tunes more were bootlegged....

[Billywhizz]

Sounds like the scene hasn't changed much in 30 years then. 

Merry Christmas, Ady.

link

Total respect Mr Vincent got some fond memories of the early Wigan days.Cheers Billy P.S The list is too long for them discoverys u made

[bozaboy]

So what was Lee Oswald Advertising then ? 

link

second hand bolt action Italian rifles, books, magic bullets, you name it ...... oh, and Marmite!

BTW, awful lot of Wednesday fans on here innit?

[Guest]

second hand bolt action Italian rifles, books, magic bullets, you name it ...... oh, and Marmite!

BTW, awful lot of Wednesday fans on here innit?

link

Better for them than watching their shite team at Pigsborough

[bozaboy]

Better for them than watching their shite team at Pigsborough 

link

Nice one BFL. That's you and me mightily bollocked for slagging off our poorer cousins from the kack part of town, undercover of a discussion on the murky goings on with a load of longhairs and fatblokes in t'Casino.

Still, Northern Soul eh? It's a giggle innit. Back to life, back to reality.

[Guest BIGBOY]

big boy -  so what you're saying is that originals didnt get played at wigan (for the 1st few years anyway) but that the djs were playing bootlegs? & they werent picking out their own records, they were handed the 45s & told what to play. then depending on the popularity of the tunes more were bootlegged....

link

No you are getting mixed up, nobody was playing boot legs Basically selected sounds that simon had on original were transferred to emi disc and shipped over to russ, who then tried to push them on everybody, there were of course plenty of originals at wigan richard had a box full. To an extent richard only played this game a short while, this was one of the things they eventualy fell out over.

At the beginning of 75 I went it for it in a big way as I was getting constant supply from anderson at that point so all my programming had no comparison with anybody elses playlist and a whole new set of records was introduced to wigan.....Which got some of the playtime away from simon controlled sounds.

The simon thing is a very big story a lot went on with him, far more than people realise.

The funny thing the tables were turned when levine brought his l j johnson and evelyn thomas stuff for us to play, the first night I was the only one who would play it as a revenge on russ!

There is also a good story about the zoo and mecca sounds which has never been aired at all.

[Guest martyn]

No you are getting mixed up, nobody was playing boot legs Basically selected sounds that simon had on original  were transferred to emi disc and shipped over to russ, who then tried to push them on everybody, there were of course plenty of originals at wigan richard had a box full. To an extent richard only played this game a short while, this was one of the things they eventualy fell out over.

At the beginning of 75 I went it for it in a big way as I was getting constant supply from anderson at that point so all my programming had no comparison with anybody elses playlist and a whole new set of records was introduced to wigan.....Which got some of the playtime away from simon controlled sounds.

The simon thing is a very big story a lot went on with him, far more than people realise.

The funny thing the tables were turned when levine brought his l j johnson and evelyn thomas stuff for us to play, the first night I was the only one who would play it as a revenge on russ!

There is also a good story about the zoo and mecca sounds which has never been aired at all.

link

As we all know almost all of the top sounds at the time hit the streets as boots in mid to late 76 (anderson bros,Laine Hill,Mell Britt,Blanche Carter,Margaret Mandolph,Rain,The Jades,The Rotations etc etc-the list seemed endless).Were all of these a direct result of this policy?

Also,was SS the only player in the bootlegs from the States game at THIS point?

[Guest martyn]

After Thought;

In the late 70s early 80s,why didn't this occur again when both Richard & Sam had excellent playlists? I know they probably came from a different source than SS,but should have been pretty easy to boot under the c/u name like Frank Wilson/Eddie Foster was ?

[vaultofsouler]

BTW, awful lot of Wednesday fans on here innit?

link

And fcukin and :Fck_off_by_nulltarget: ....

Proper geezers we are ....

[vaultofsouler]

Nice one BFL. That's you and me mightily bollocked for slagging off our poorer cousins from the kack part of town, undercover of a discussion on the murky goings on with a load of longhairs and fatblokes in t'Casino.

Still, Northern Soul eh? It's a giggle innit. Back to life, back to reality.

link

Poorer cousins.... kack part of town.... give it a rest ....

Listed as being from The Peoples Democratic Republic of Bolsover

must be part of the 2nd rate piggy brigade ....

Up the.... (maybe not this year).... OWLS ....

[Ady Potts]

As we all know almost all of the top sounds at the time hit the streets as boots in mid to late 76 (anderson bros,Laine Hill,Mell Britt,Blanche Carter,Margaret Mandolph,Rain,The Jades,The Rotations etc etc-the list seemed endless).Were all of these a direct result of this policy?

Also,was SS the only player in the bootlegs from the States game at THIS point?

link

That's an interesting point Martyn, S.S. seem's to have taken the whole blame for the bootlegs that hit the streets at this time. So John, who else was involved, if anyone? Ady.

[Guest enchantedrythm]

it seems there are lots of comment out there that don't really mean anything. this is bollocks, i hunked 45's up and down dale on behalf of Selectadisc, and the people that actually mattered on the scene at the time. Good people like steve elliot and hector (they paid in court for things out of their control by the way) and to lots of indifferents that were out to make a buck, the same as it was and always will be. simon was a master stroke, he actually actually got records pressed then. major lance? chris blackwell? john anderson? john Bracknal and brian Selby and and and.

conspiracy? it ain't no conspiracy, its money pure and simple. Demand and supply, without it you wouldn't have no scene, then what would you do, stamps, trains? pure hearts are rare in my opinion and those brandished with the unpure signs have some of the best motives and some of the best taste in the music they're supporting. they also have made it what you SEE today. GO READ SOUL SOURCE MAG (ORIGINAL EH MIKE) jo vincent used to come into Selecta on fridays with that little lad pat brady, in short trousers blah blah -love you pat- and everybody. conspiracy HUMBUG- love you all, but don't baffle with half truths, rumours and lies. ( kev roberts, now theres a man with taste).

for those who weren't there, tough, those times were magic, times today are also magic, its a travel game, its a quiz, its instrumental in my development, its all, don't knock it without ground.

as far as facts on bootlegs go, specific questions i'll try to feedback but dent forget the playing field has totaly changed. cheap ccommodities have gone, along with simon. its now expensive and dangerous 'REAL 'copies that fool experts, let alone j mathews in the street that are real problems and without the vinyl in your hand impossible to test on virtual sales formats, blame technology for putting that power of copy into anyone who's literate or issue us all with I.D chips, all seeing- shite that Orwell's been there already

(look at Soul Source original mag for pure innocence)

76 was the boom year for wigan and EVERYONE involved had fun, youth was on our sides, we felt the earth move: 150k members at casino means 100k of record buyers during that year, EVERYTHING was available in VINYL only. Working in and around the confines of Selecta at the time was the best enviroment to be in the 'know' as to the political/financial/played titles and unknown records.

The whole thing evolves around playing NEW - UNHEARD and DANCEable sounds, mainly of the soul persuasion, but anything goes.

That went as far as pressing records that had not even been played-for me at the time, a wondrous enigma. The magnificents - my heart is calling- dropped into Selecta on a friday in august 73, stacked and stocked to 2500 copies the same week the VA VA's poster went on the wall with the customary list of sounds to be expected at the next nighter including this Magnificents record; we and us aamonst us to the man (some serious scene knowledge for the time) hadn't heard of this record or its existence prior to 2500 copies appearing and john br4attn saying it was the latest big sound. Many sounds appeared from that kind of background, most to be lost and cataloged amongst bootlegging's real blunders. Some are even rare in there own right. All due to the fact that you cant gauge audience reaction down to pre- ordering copy.

Selecta-discs roots lie in a serious rock envelope, the owner into all sorts, but willing to diversify for the sake of fringe music, but also with profit in mind-maybe- without rare soul it could never have been the giant it professed it was. But their pressing routine started with the supply for records by Jackie Edwards, Chubby Checker (discotheque) Roscoe Robinson and the like- Your every day every night disco dancers of the 69,70,71 club scene.

This delve into the bootlegging world comes from the quantities of the Soul Sounds bootlegs that inhabited the market in the late 60's, that Selecta disc sold and supplied in numbers that obviously rang bells for Selby (the owner) and staff sarge J Bratton who were music lovers who felt that supply and demand was part of the game and niched into some obscure soul scene that-maybe, without the vision of people like them were huge catalysts in the development of what you know today.

John anderson in reverse was, without doubt a major player in the supply of soul records, but in that field doomed to some sort of implosion due to the fact that once the originals are gone they've gone, to forfill orders for deleted, unobtainable obscure soul records at that point in musical history was to all but a few thousand fans laughable in the big scheme of music supply. Many of the first dudes in the field were rich from bootlegging HR&HR and doowop years before and had gone into semi coma in the early 60's due to musical boredom, watching there own scenes dissapeasr up thir own arse's. KNOWING FULL WELL THE ONLY HEALTHY MUSIC SCENES PLAY NEW AND FRESH SOUNDS THAT FIT THE BILL. The 'bill' being the dancing public they cater for. Once the sounds of a certain genre are exhausted thencaputt. The rare soul scene has completely re-arranged that mind set by clever play policies, dedicated purists with knowledge and the availability of enough vinyl back-up, in whatever state of legality, tofulfilll the demand. The majority of sounds bootlegged were on a demand basis-its easy to forget that vinyl was the only practical way, no mpeg4, cassette was fresh and not that dedicated to sound quality-Main stream record companies were always wary about official re-releases of a genre of music that at best could sell 5000 copies unless all the trials and tribulations of support came into play. Godin, blackwell etc all supported as seen fit, but couldn't fill that small market demand of the 5000 hence the absolute neccesaty of small booltleg runs to fill the market. WITHOUT THAT YOU WOULDN'T BE READING THIS.

I've started but maybe not finished- christmas and all that and me on a 'journalist' trip- keep going, im interested in what views on this topic are, I've never had to look at it from the point of never being there from pretty much the start, there are some odd conceptions around and some history to be learn't, if comenting.

HARRY CRYSTAL & MARY DEW-FREER to everyone.

[Wiganer1]

it seems there are lots of comment out there that don't really mean anything. this is bollocks, i hunked 45's up and down dale on behalf of Selectadisc, and the people that actually mattered on the scene at the time. Good people like steve elliot and hector (they paid in court  for things out of their control by the way) and to lots of indifferents that were out to make a buck, the same as it was and always will be. simon was a master stroke, he actually actually got records pressed then. major lance? chris blackwell? john anderson? john Bracknal and brian Selby and and and.

conspiracy? it ain't no conspiracy, its money pure and simple. Demand and supply, without it you wouldn't have no scene, then what would you do, stamps, trains? pure hearts are rare in my opinion and those brandished with the unpure signs have some of the best motives and some of  the best taste in the music they're supporting. they also have made it what you SEE today. GO READ SOUL SOURCE  MAG (ORIGINAL EH MIKE) jo vincent used to come into Selecta on fridays with that little lad pat brady, in short trousers blah blah -love you pat- and everybody.  conspiracy HUMBUG- love you  all, but don't baffle with half truths, rumours and  lies.  ( kev roberts, now theres a man with taste).

for those who weren't there, tough, those times were magic, times today are also magic, its a travel game, its a quiz, its instrumental in my development, its all, don't knock it without ground.

as far as facts on bootlegs go, specific questions i'll try to feedback but dent forget the playing field has totaly changed. cheap ccommodities have gone, along with simon. its now expensive and dangerous 'REAL 'copies that fool experts, let alone j mathews in the street that are real problems and without the vinyl in your hand impossible to test on virtual sales formats, blame technology for putting that power of copy into anyone who's literate or issue us all with I.D chips, all seeing- shite that Orwell's been there already

(look at Soul Source original mag for pure innocence)

76 was the boom year for wigan and EVERYONE involved had fun, youth was on our sides, we felt the earth move: 150k members at casino means 100k of record buyers during that year, EVERYTHING was available in VINYL only. Working in and around the confines of Selecta at the time was the best enviroment to be in the 'know' as to the political/financial/played titles and unknown records.

The whole thing evolves around playing NEW - UNHEARD and DANCEable sounds, mainly of the soul persuasion, but anything goes.

That went as far as pressing records that had not even been played-for me at the time, a wondrous enigma. The magnificents - my heart is calling- dropped into Selecta on a  friday in august 73, stacked and stocked to 2500 copies the same week the VA VA's poster went on the wall with the customary list of sounds to be expected at the next nighter including this Magnificents record; we and us aamonst us to the man (some serious scene knowledge for the time) hadn't heard of this record or its existence prior to 2500 copies appearing and john br4attn saying it was the latest  big sound. Many sounds appeared from that kind of background, most to be lost and cataloged amongst bootlegging's real blunders. Some are even rare in there own right. All due to the fact that you cant gauge audience reaction down to pre- ordering copy.

Selecta-discs roots lie in a  serious rock envelope, the owner into all sorts, but willing to diversify for the sake of fringe music, but also with profit in mind-maybe- without rare soul it could never have been the giant it professed it was. But their pressing routine started with the supply for records by Jackie Edwards, Chubby Checker (discotheque) Roscoe Robinson and the like- Your every day every night disco dancers of the 69,70,71 club scene.

This delve into the bootlegging world comes from the quantities of the Soul  Sounds bootlegs that inhabited the market in the late 60's, that Selecta disc sold and supplied in numbers that obviously rang bells for Selby (the owner) and staff sarge J Bratton who were music lovers who felt that supply and demand was part of the game and niched into some obscure soul scene that-maybe, without the vision of people like them were huge catalysts in the development of what you know today.

John anderson in reverse was, without doubt a major player in the supply of soul records, but in that field doomed to some sort of implosion due to the fact that once the originals are gone they've gone, to forfill orders for deleted, unobtainable obscure soul records at that point in musical history was to all but a few thousand fans laughable in the big scheme of music supply. Many of the first dudes in the field were rich from bootlegging HR&HR and doowop years before and had gone into semi coma in the early 60's due to musical boredom, watching there own scenes dissapeasr up thir own arse's. KNOWING FULL WELL THE ONLY HEALTHY MUSIC SCENES PLAY NEW AND FRESH SOUNDS THAT FIT THE BILL. The 'bill' being the dancing public they cater for. Once the sounds of a certain genre are exhausted thencaputt. The rare soul scene has completely re-arranged that mind set by clever play policies, dedicated purists with knowledge and the availability of enough vinyl back-up, in whatever state of legality, tofulfilll the demand. The majority of sounds bootlegged were on a demand basis-its easy to forget that vinyl was the only practical  way, no mpeg4, cassette was fresh and not that dedicated to sound quality-Main stream record companies were always wary about official re-releases of a genre of music that at best could sell 5000 copies unless all the trials and tribulations of support came into play. Godin, blackwell etc all supported as seen fit, but couldn't fill that small market demand of the 5000 hence the absolute neccesaty of small booltleg runs to fill the market. WITHOUT THAT YOU WOULDN'T BE READING THIS.

I've started but maybe not finished- christmas and all that and me on a 'journalist' trip- keep going, im interested in what views on this topic are, I've never had to look at it from the point of never being there from pretty much the start, there are some odd conceptions around  and some history to be learn't, if comenting.

HARRY CRYSTAL & MARY DEW-FREER to everyone.

link

=============

hey JV

sod all the politics

what was that sonny sanders - i got a soul baby you played at wiga i 75 reallly called???

[BlueWail]

with never going to wigan

i dont give a shite what went on there

i cant believe two decades later people are still waffling on about it

ill put my tin hat on

[Mike]

with never going to wigan

i dont give a shite what went on there

i cant believe two decades later people are still waffling on about it

ill put my tin hat on

link

dont give a "shite"... ?

fair enough, but if dont "give a ......" why post ?

easiest thing is to just ignore the thread

happy christmas

mike

[Headsy]

interesting stuff but the fact that records were ''pushed'' to then be pressed for the financial benefit of a few is an old and well known story.

I have said before it still goes on today not for the pushing of bootlegs but for the blatent ramping up of cheap sounds that some people have stock of that when become popular get sold for 10 times the actual value,

deep dark secret,Ace Spectrum,Futures,Almeta lattimore,J M Matthews,Bill bush etc etc, the true value of these records is far less than what they are getting sold for, it is just the way it is.

yes some records are quite rare and do not get the recognition price wise that they should and some common records go for silly money just cos its the current ''big sound''

to say that bootlegging is fine cos it gave us what we have today is a load of bollocks,the scene would have progressed anyway,just look how much knowledge collectors and dealers have these days and how many more is there now than there was 30 years ago, then there was maybe a dozen people with enough knowledge,appreciation of the music and the ability to go to the States and ''open doors'' to find the records and make agreements with dealers in the US,now there is loads of knowledgable people with great records themselves.......the only problem is the vinyl has dried up !!!

[Guest Johnny One Trout]

So Headsy are you saying it is unethical to play cheaper records?

Surely as has been said earlier it's about supply and demand and whilst the records you mentioned may not be the rarest in the world there are only so many to go around and if everyone wants one .....well you know what it's like nowadays, a record get a mention on a list like this and without any scene plays hardly the price starts to go up ....

Trouty

Not too sure that JMM & BB are common records though

[Headsy]

So Headsy are you saying it is unethical to play cheaper records?

Surely as has been said earlier it's about supply and demand and whilst the records you mentioned may not be the rarest in the world there are only so many to go around and if everyone wants one .....well you know what it's like nowadays, a record get a mention on a list like this and without any scene plays hardly the price starts to go up ....

Trouty

Not too sure that JMM & BB are common records though

link

absolutely not,in fact there are some great cheap records that dont get played because they are cheap,what I am saying is that many cheap records are plugged and become popular by design just so certain people can sell them in quantities and make a lot of moneyadditionally records are pushed so they can be pressed and agian certain people make money at the expense of soul fans,

[Guest hatman]

interesting stuff but the fact that records were ''pushed'' to then be pressed for the financial benefit of a few is an old and well known story.

I have said before it still goes on today not for the pushing of bootlegs but for the blatent ramping up of cheap sounds that some people have stock of that when become popular get sold for 10 times the actual value,

deep dark secret,Ace Spectrum,Futures,Almeta lattimore,J M Matthews,Bill bush etc etc, the true value of these records is far less than what they are getting sold for, it is just the way it is.

yes some records are quite rare and do not get  the recognition price wise that they should and some common records go for silly money just cos its the current ''big sound''

to say that bootlegging is fine cos it gave us what we have today is a load of bollocks,the scene would have progressed anyway,just look how much knowledge collectors and dealers have these days and how many more is there now than there was 30 years ago, then there was maybe a dozen people with enough knowledge,appreciation of the music and the ability to go to the States and ''open doors'' to find the records and make agreements with dealers in the US,now there is loads of knowledgable people with great records themselves.......the only problem is the vinyl has dried up !!!

link

[Headsy]

I would also add that JMM and BB current value wise do not reflect their rarety,yes that is supply and demand though.

[Guest hatman]

All about the money!!

Seems to me like it is still big business judging by the amount of bootlegs flying around at the moment

Still it is better to buy a bootleg knowing that it is a boot rather than the Scam of making old boots look like originals and flogging them on EBAY

For example the Bernie Williams on "Bell" sold for in excess of $3000 and was clearly a BOOT!!

[Chalky]

absolutely not,in fact there are some great cheap records that dont get played because they are cheap,what I am saying is that many cheap records are plugged and become popular by design just so certain people can sell them in quantities and make a lot of moneyadditionally records are pushed so they can be pressed and agian certain people make money at the expense of soul fans,

link

I think a lot of the over inflated records are pricey due soley to either a lack of knowledge or more money than sense. Those about before the revival mid 90's knew you couldn't give Ace Spectrum away, christ it sold summat like 2 million in the states, it should be a two dollar record Same for the Constellations, Dottie and Millie etc, these were fillers in the 80's, in virtually every sales box every week

Bill Bush, another from the late 80's getting re-activated over the last few years, folk just don't study whats going off on the auctions etc and are prepared to pay whatever it takes, their choice admittedly but foolish IMO.

Don't think the likes of Ace Spectrum etc were deliberately pushed to inflate the prices, they are easy catchy dancers and you had a whole flock of lazy DJ's who weren't prepared to try something different as well as a less tolerable set of punters (all IMHO).

Edited December 24, 2004 by chalky

[Guest Andy Kempster]

Sounds like the scene hasn't changed much in 30 years then. 

Merry Christmas, Ady.

link

mention the word 'conspiracy' and look who pops up.....

happy xmas mate, see you in the new year

andy

[Ady Potts]

mention the word 'conspiracy' and look who pops up.....

happy xmas mate, see you in the new year

andy

link

Where's my Christmas pressy!! All the favours i do you, they'll have to stop.

Happy Christmas to you to mate.

[Guest Andy Kempster]

Sounds like the scene hasn't changed much in 30 years then. 

Merry Christmas, Ady.

link

[Guest Andy Kempster]

Where's my Christmas pressy!! All the favours i do you, they'll have to stop. 

Happy Christmas to you to mate.

link

i'll get you pint

i'm meeting graham in the three tuns later