Vent 1009. J.M. Disappeared ?

[Becket]

The below was on J.M's auction for one day and then disappeared it seems ?

Ethics - Lost In A Lonely World / Now Is The Time - Vent 1009

https://www.raresoulman.co.uk › ethics-lost-in-a-lonely...

The fabled "lost" Ethics 45, so hideously rare it remains totally undocumented and we can assure all, that this 45 is the only copy we have ever seen.

Anyone ?

[Chalky]

I can only assume it was taken down due to issues of its authenticity.  It's been proven to be a counterfeit/bootleg, the information given in a discussion on Facebook can leave you in no doubt really.

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

1 minute ago, Chalky said:

I can only assume it was taken down due to issues of its authenticity.  It's been proven to be a counterfeit/bootleg, the information given in a discussion on Facebook can leave you in no doubt really.

I think on JM's YT channel he states its a boot.

[Blackpoolsoul]

49 minutes ago, Billy Jo Jim Bob said:

I think on JM's YT channel he states its a boot.

He described it on his auction totally differently and convinced me (at first) it was a grail and has made, IMHO, a huge error.

Perhaps the blonde girl from Bristol (I forget her name) will interview him again and question what happened, so we can watch on You Tube, but some how I doubt it and he will be hoping that the story will go away very very quickly. I think it will be very honourable of him to tell us the facts, his wife is on here now, maybe she will do it.

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

19 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

He described it on his auction totally differently and convinced me (at first) it was a grail and has made, IMHO, a huge error.

Perhaps the blonde girl from Bristol (I forget her name) will interview him again and question what happened, so we can watch on You Tube, but some how I doubt it and he will be hoping that the story will go away very very quickly. I think it will be very honourable of him to tell us the facts, his wife is on here now, maybe she will do it.

I think it just goes to show that we all make errors and our knowledge is not as complete as we like to think.

[Blackpoolsoul]

11 minutes ago, Billy Jo Jim Bob said:

I think it just goes to show that we all make errors and our knowledge is not as complete as we like to think.

Indeed and me more than most, however, this was a big deal and a big ticket thing and I would have expected John to get this right, with his experience and vast knowledge, I don't get it at all.

[Simon T]

All we can hope for John, as penitence for his faux pa , a stale (Melton Mowbray) pork pie catches him in the eye.

[Corbett80]

I’ve a good mind to write him a strongly worded letter, and charge HIM the postage!

 

[Chalky]

everyday is a school day as they say

[Dave Pinch]

no one is perfect. everyone makes mistakes a and no one knows it all. we are all still learning at the end of the day

[Blackpoolsoul]

11 hours ago, Chalky said:

I can only assume it was taken down due to issues of its authenticity.  It's been proven to be a counterfeit/bootleg, the information given in a discussion on Facebook can leave you in no doubt really.

Your "rare soul" FB page has no doubt saved a trusting buyer from spending on a potential disaster.  

 

[Dave Pinch]

39 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Your "rare soul" FB page has no doubt saved a trusting buyer from spending on a potential disaster.  

 

but really the record speaks for itself..  i looked at it and within 2 seconds it was screaming at me saying look at me i`m moody

[Lionelonthevinyl]

2 hours ago, Dave Pinch said:

no one is perfect. everyone makes mistakes a and no one knows it all. we are all still learning at the end of the day

Exactly what I was going to say. I presume the seller thought it was an original?....thank you...Rob

[Blackpoolsoul]

8 minutes ago, Lionelonthevinyl said:

Exactly what I was going to say. I presume the seller thought it was an original?....thank you...Rob

There is little to argue with that and we ALL agree mistakes can be made. I and others, I guess, are just hoping that John will tell us HOW the error occurred.

John quotes 

"The Home of Rare Vinyl Records

John Manship Records have been supplying collectors worldwide with rare vinyl records since 1969. We are universally recognised as a world authority on rare soul vinyl. Our whole stock has been handpicked and is arguably the most comprehensive stock of rare soul vinyl anywhere in the world."

 

[Blackpoolsoul]

1 hour ago, Dave Pinch said:

but really the record speaks for itself..  i looked at it and within 2 seconds it was screaming at me saying look at me i`m moody

Thing is Dave, there are people who "could" have been fooled and if wasn't for Karl's FB page, it "might" have not been ratted out in the way it was (I had no idea) and a young gun, with a large bank account could have bought a pup. There are, as you know, plenty of counterfeit purchase histories spattered all over popsike and other auctions.

I have never seen much about the whole Vent label and publishing and always had may doubts about the LP's background and maybe this might shed some light to satisfy my curiosity, if nothing else, maybe that is for another thread (unless I missed it)

[Chalky]

2 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Your "rare soul" FB page has no doubt saved a trusting buyer from spending on a potential disaster.  

 

It isn't my group, I just help look after it with 4 others.  The members with their knowledge, of fonts and spacing  in particular really dispelled any doubts this was real.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Chalky

[Julianb]

Thank God for anoraks!

[Amsterdam Russ]

41 minutes ago, Chalky said:

It isn't my group, I just help look after it with 4 others.  The members with their knowledge, of fonts and spacing  in particular really dispelled any doubts this was real.

Can you post up a scan of the label from the FB group? I’m sure we’d all like to see it.

[Mick Holdsworth]

Here's the image from the FB page . .

 

[Davey S]

For me it was the nice new looking black vinyl that looked dodgy but if we want to blame someone as is the culture nowadays what about the low life piece of crap that tried to dude someone out of their vinyl tokens .

Of course that's assuming it's dodgy.

[Davey S]

1 minute ago, Davey S said:

For me it was the nice new looking black vinyl that looked dodgy but if we want to blame someone as is the culture nowadays what about the low life piece of crap that tried to dude someone out of their vinyl tokens .

Of course that's assuming it's dodgy.

And I didn't mean John .

[Midnight Drifter]

Apart from the new looking vinyl, the structure of the label paper looks suspicious to my eyes. But it could also be the resolution of the pic.. 

[Amsterdam Russ]

I've just been comparing the scan with one of the group's "Look at me now" on Vent. It's interesting when you overlay one on top of the other in Photoshop - the inconsistencies become more obvious.

Even without overlaying labels, putting the scans side by side and it's obvious all the typefaces - barring the Goudy family font used on the label name - don't match. Look at the lower case 'g' in 'Arranged' and 'Triangle' you'll see very clearly they're from completely different font families.

Also, there's no full stop after the comma in Phila (Phila., vs Phila. on the fake - something that no-one would have made the mistake of doing in those days).

And, as has been pointed out, the texture of the label (it's a completely different type and weight of paper - uncoated, by the looks of things - from that used on "Look at me now") and the almost pitch black of the printing (heavier ink absorption on the label because it is uncoated paper).

Another clue (for me at least), is that the block of text featuring group name and song title isn't centred with the address details featured below. And, the kerning and tracking (the spaces between letters and words) are not consistent with the "Look at me now" label.

[Dave Pinch]

4 hours ago, Davey S said:

For me it was the nice new looking black vinyl that looked dodgy but if we want to blame someone as is the culture nowadays what about the low life piece of crap that tried to dude someone out of their vinyl tokens .

Of course that's assuming it's dodgy.

yeh should have had a one turn run in and perish the thought at least a frank ford wayne scratched in or stamp in deadwax

[Chalky]

When the faults are pointed out it is obvious it is a fake.  The label, rather than use blue paper as you would expect is, printed blue, you can see if you zoom in.  The type setting, spacing etc is clearly modern day computer typesetting.  The vinyl is wrong, number if turns in the run out etc.  The detail those on the Facebook topic go into is quite fascinating and proper anorak

Edited March 26, 2022 by Chalky

[Blackpoolsoul]

5 hours ago, Mick Holdsworth said:

Here's the image from the FB page . .

 

Looks like the Triangle Records place was bulldozed down and replaced, this new house was built in 2009

Edited March 26, 2022 by Blackpoolsoul

[Simon T]

I'm a bit lost here:

it's not a 'carver'?

it's a proper pressed up record, 1 of several?

it's is or isn't licensed reissue through Jamie/Guyden Dist Co?

it's totally 'moody' done for profit?

it was sent anonymously to JM for auction?

it's a sweet soul modern day leaked-out copy for mischief, remember the Four Vandals debacle?

[Kenb]

 

[Woodbutcher]

Having just seen the photo I'm amazed that anyone could have been taken in by it , let alone Mr M ... 

[Blackpoolsoul]

1 hour ago, Kenb said:

 

You see how old I am, I read this and had completely forgotten, cheers buddy

Edited March 26, 2022 by Blackpoolsoul

[Agentsmith]

Only available on a US " best of " cd....agreed?, dosnt exist as a single, completely unissued...therefore: carver?, easily done, replica labels....how the fuck did  MMM walk into that one?, mental blackout??

Original members went on to form Love Committee

[Agentsmith]

So....honestly, having not youtubed it, and never having heard it , is this of intense interest because the track itself falls into the " sweet soul/Lowrider " category?

The Ethics story sounds great tbh, it seems they didnt get the roll of the dice, despite working with Thom Bell..the sound they were creating prempted the arrival of tsop by a couple of years...they split up prior to that music exploding onto the scene at the beginning of the 70's..." I Want My Baby Back " has proved to be a great track in the last few years, great arrangement and harmonies, i can see why theyre highly regarded.

Somebody obviously knew they cause a stir with all of you guys, let alone Pork pie meister, if they chucked a red herring in.....i can see  you all chin stroking, pulling at what hair is left on your head, and with a collective bamboozled expression on your faces, bordering on a demented fury because some cheeky shit has tried to pull a flanker on you with a track that is unissued yet has you doubting?, your consciences!!

[Blackpoolsoul]

9 minutes ago, Agentsmith said:

So....honestly, having not youtubed it, and never having heard it , is this of intense interest because the track itself falls into the " sweet soul/Lowrider " category?

The Ethics story sounds great tbh, it seems they didnt get the roll of the dice, despite working with Thom Bell..the sound they were creating prempted the arrival of tsop by a couple of years...they split up prior to that music exploding onto the scene at the beginning of the 70's..." I Want My Baby Back " has proved to be a great track in the last few years, great arrangement and harmonies, i can see why theyre highly regarded.

Somebody obviously knew they cause a stir with all of you guys, let alone Pork pie meister, if they chucked a red herring in.....i can see  you all chin stroking, pulling at what hair is left on your head, and with a collective bamboozled expression on your faces, bordering on a demented fury because some cheeky shit has tried to pull a flanker on you with a track that is unissued yet has you doubting?, your consciences!!

For some, the emotions maybe there, I think it goes deeper, when we are talking about a record market that has now pushed itself into the realms of price madness and dealers like John are commanding such high prices, to the bewilderment of some and the satisfaction of the sellers bank managers.

Soul detectives have spent years trying to uncover the bootleggers works since Jeff King was first jailed for his efforts and Simon Soussan ruled the counterfeit market in boxes at Northern Soul venues and lists galore and to see the "famous Dj's" and suppliers booting tunes and a dealer or dealers getting it wrong is sad and really disappointing.

As far as the red herring, John clearly must now the supply source then (if knows) and out them to protect his reputation.

[Chalky]

14 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

For some, the emotions maybe there, I think it goes deeper, when we are talking about a record market that has now pushed itself into the realms of price madness and dealers like John are commanding such high prices, to the bewilderment of some and the satisfaction of the sellers bank managers.

Soul detectives have spent years trying to uncover the bootleggers works since Jeff King was first jailed for his efforts and Simon Soussan ruled the counterfeit market in boxes at Northern Soul venues and lists galore and to see the "famous Dj's" and suppliers booting tunes and a dealer or dealers getting it wrong is sad and really disappointing.

As far as the red herring, John clearly must now the supply source then (if knows) and out them to protect his reputation.

It was from a collection by all accounts and not a supply source, you always seem to think the worst and continually stir the pot and that someone is up to no good.  Maybe John's emotions having seen something for the first time got the better of him, maybe in one's hands it looked kosher at first glance.  I do know John was asking others their opinion so it wasn't as though he actually fully trusted the disc.

[Chalky]

His reputation doesn't need protecting as far as I am concerned.

We all make mistakes, we all get taken in at some point  We all let emotions run away with us.  We are all learning everyday.  Time to pack in when we stop learning.

Why should he out anyone?  Knowing the disc is a fake is all you or anyone surely needs to know.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Chalky

[Blackpoolsoul]

6 hours ago, Chalky said:

It was from a collection by all accounts and not a supply source, you always seem to think the worst and continually stir the pot and that someone is up to no good.  Maybe John's emotions having seen something for the first time got the better of him, maybe in one's hands it looked kosher at first glance.  I do know John was asking others their opinion so it wasn't as though he actually fully trusted the disc.

 

Let me get this straight Karl and based on your comments. John put it up for auction, even though he did not trust the disc 100%. How odd is that? Why did he not ask the same facebook page that outed it's authenticity or even his own, so he could get the responses and advice that have happened.

I am fully entitled to my opinion as you are yours and I will always make MY point as others will theirs. 

You state "I always seem to think the worst and continually stir the pot and that someone is up to no good" which is a lie and you have no authority to say this whatsoever, so please be careful with your personal comments.

Let me throw a couple of positive things in for you.

Buyers will be checking, more carefully perhaps, if the purchases they make are credible

The record may create yet more advertising for John, he will be happy with that. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Blackpoolsoul

[Chalky]

3 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 

Let me get this straight Karl and based on your comments. John put it up for auction, even though he did not trust the disc 100%. How odd is that? Why did he not ask the same facebook page that outed it's authenticity or even his own, so he could get the responses and advice that have happened.

I am fully entitled to my opinion as you are yours and I will always make MY point as others will theirs. 

You state "I always seem to think the worst and continually stir the pot and that someone is up to no good" which is a lie and you have no authority to say this whatsoever, so please be careful with your personal comments.

Let me throw a couple of positive things in for you.

Buyers will be checking, more carefully perhaps, if the purchases they make are credible

The record may create yet more advertising for John, he will be happy with that. 

It isn't me who needs to be more careful.  You just cannot help yourself.  The next to last sentence practically suggests he maybe selling other fake records.  

I'm not suggesting you don't give your opinion nor anyone else so not sure where you got that from?  I merely suggest when you do say something you continually stir the pot or if you wan it in plain English sh*t stir.  JM isn't a member of the Facebook group so cannot ask, he got his answer somewhere/somehow though.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Chalky

[Blackpoolsoul]

25 minutes ago, Chalky said:

It isn't me who needs to be more careful.  You just cannot help yourself.  The next to last sentence practically suggests he maybe selling other fake records.  

I'm not suggesting you don't give your opinion nor anyone else so not sure where you got that from?  I merely suggest when you do say something you continually stir the pot or if you wan it in plain English sh*t stir.  JM isn't a member of the Facebook group so cannot ask, he got his answer somewhere/somehow though.

Wow, how dare you suggest that, I have know John since I was a teenager and he would never do that. in fact I have been a supporter of his amazing videos on You Tube of how to spot fakes and have spread the word to others.

Karl, if you are going to continue trying to distort what I say then do as you will, it's just silly

 

[Chalky]

3 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Wow, how dare you suggest that, I have know John since I was a teenager and he would never do that. in fact I have been a supporter of his amazing videos on You Tube of how to spot fakes and have spread the word to others.

Karl, if you are going to continue trying to distort what I say then do as you will, it's just silly

 

Quote

Buyers will be checking, more carefully perhaps, if the purchases they make are credible

How do you think that reads to others, I know how it read to me.  You are talking about JM and that line is in the middle? I don't know if it is about JM or buying in general but I know how it read to me.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Chalky

[Mike]

all getting a bit toxic

not sure why @Blackpoolsoul you feel that this forum is a suitable place for trying to drag out replies/actions by dealers (who are not members on here) by repeated posts asking for such

It would be much more effective if you actually contact the dealers directly with such requests/suggestions/points and then pass on any details afterwards

Ask both members involved can we give this exchange a rest now or if feel need to continue take it to pms

thanks

 

 

 

[Chalky]

This topic and this record proves that it is virtually impossible to replicate a 45 and fool the collecting world.

Every repro or counterfeit we know about was rumbled very early on, the friends only 45s, Four Vandals palaver etc etc

There is a collector who is an expert in every field used to make a disc.  The paper, ink, vinyl, printing, typesetting, fonts, font spacing, everything is different since the 60s and 70s and many of the ingredients used back then can no longer be got and are illegal to use.

Long live the anorak 

[Kenb]

get your general point, and it's a good one...but what about those that came out of pressing plants in the 60's/70's booted?...'Get a job', 'Maybe', Sam Cooke on Keen, etc.

Not everything gets "trapped".

[Chalky]

11 hours ago, Kenb said:

get your general point, and it's a good one...but what about those that came out of pressing plants in the 60's/70's booted?...'Get a job', 'Maybe', Sam Cooke on Keen, etc.

Not everything gets "trapped".

I’m referring to more recent times and in particular nowadays. Back in the 60s the  products were the same for the labels and the bootleggers and probably done in the same plants.

There are probably plenty of bootlegs/counterfeits of Motown etc in collections where the collector doesn’t realise

Edited March 29, 2022 by Chalky

[Julianb]

52 minutes ago, Chalky said:

I’m referring to more recent times and in particular nowadays. Back in the 60s the  products were the same for the labels and the bootleggers and probably done in the same plants.

There are probably plenty of bootlegs/counterfeits of Motown etc in collections where the collector doesn’t realise

Bloody hell Chalky, are you saying my copy of FW may not be real?

[Martyn Pitt]

28 minutes ago, Julianb said:

Bloody hell Chalky, are you saying my copy of FW may not be real?

Boot or real the sad fact is that they all play perfectly 

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Julianb said:

Bloody hell Chalky, are you saying my copy of FW may not be real?

 

I did read that many of the big sellers were a target for counterfeiters BITD, places like Detroit, New York etc not soul clubs here.  Those buying new releases in the US could have been buying a counterfeit rather than a legit company release. 

[Mal C]

I'm no Soul Gannet like you lot, but the text is the immediate giveaway to my eyes, that is not a sixties typeface is it...or is it?   as Chalky says its actually a pretty easy spot when you look close.

This all reminds me of that Johnny Watson - It's Better To Cry track that fooled a big DJ and lots of folks, and the type on that label looked immediately wrong as well, think that may have come via John also?? dunno long time ago now.  You lot have seen enough original vinyl to know the difference...trust your eyes..!!

and to prove the point

[Solidsoul]

The boots we know about are the one's that aren't perfect. There may have be some records that were repressed by the original pressing plants.

Monarch is a great example. Lucky for us, they usually did not use the original triangle matrix number or we would not be able to tell some originals from the pressings/boots.

Modern represses are obvious, because as mentioned, the manufacturing process has changed.

It's a minefield. Sometimes I think I am on safe ground, then it blows up when new info comes to light!

[Chalky]

Unless done from the original masters with original labels and typesetting there will always be a difference somewhere, its just spotting that difference.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Chalky

[Wheelsville1]

1 hour ago, Mal C said:

I'm no Soul Gannet like you lot, but the text is the immediate giveaway to my eyes, that is not a sixties typeface is it...or is it?   as Chalky says its actually a pretty easy spot when you look close.

This all reminds me of that Johnny Watson - It's Better To Cry track that fooled a big DJ and lots of folks, and the type on that label looked immediately wrong as well, think that may have come via John also?? dunno long time ago now.  You lot have seen enough original vinyl to know the difference...trust your eyes..!!

and to prove the point

The Johnny Watsons were done by Pete Lowrie,he tried stinging me with one but i smelt a rat immediatley plus i have an appreciations which is far superior.