Soul Britannia

[Cunnie]

Programs repeated at 12-20 on BBC 4 if anyone missed it or even wants to watch it again

[tone5446]

I shan't be watching it till tomorrow and I'm already livid, hope I get to sleep grrrrrrrrrrr!

PS Why do we need a documentary on the scene, the true story is in our own heads (man). There's no bleedin' Elms or Jazzie B to distort things and the records are better!

Tone (this one, not that one)

[Cunnie]

Programs repeated at 12-20 on BBC 4 if anyone missed it or even wants to watch it again

Apologies for above post.

Program that's on is the Jools Holland Soul Britannia edition but it passes an hour on i suppose.

[Guest Bogue]

Sorry Bouge, but how do you work that out ?

It has footage from the Motorcity/ Detroit reunion that was filmed before SWONS was even thought of and would NEVER have been seen otherwise.

So are you talking about the original video version or the later DVD version where the Motorcity related footage is on DVD four ( of six), while the first three CD's are largely of people who were actually on the Northern scene, while disc five icontains footage from the 'Togetherness' weekender or disc six which is the making of the whole thing which explains why there were so many problems ???

The DVD set is the one i forked out for unfortunatly Simon I watched it once, thought what a load of dross & hid it away in a dark cupboard.

So i thought, mmmm, i always value Simon's opinions on here so i'll go & get it from the dusty depths & check.

I stick the first disc ' The Way It Was' in the dvd player & wait to see the way it was !!

" My heart keeps beating faster, my heart keeps beating faster, cue synthesised drum roll, my heart keeps beating faster, blah blah.

Fast forward, few old artists talking, not bad, play spot the Motor City artist. - fast forward , Motor City Films emblazened across the screen with 'My heart keeps beating e.t.c e.t.c as a backing track - fast forward ,Clips of people dancing thier hearts out, but the backing track is My heart keeps beating faster full f***** length in it's entirety, - fast forward , few bits of chat with actual real tracks as they were originaly recorded playing in the background ( unfortunatly only just about hear them) but real, as they were sounds - fast forward , 7 days is too long till i see you (or something like that) (no, not chuck wood unfortunatly) synthesised drum roll, 7 days blah blah blah in it's entirity ! - fast forward , present day Dobie Gray mimimng to Out on the floor - fast forward , Bobby Paris singing new version of 'Personaly' . Click off

No i think i was right the first time Simon, you really must take off those Levine tinted shades

Can i end by saying that i have nothing against Ian levine, & he has achieved more in his life than me or thousands of others ever will .

His finding & playing of the thousands of favourites in the early part of the scene should garuntee him free entry to any N Soul night or nighter in the country for that alone. But why is he so obssesed with that bloody drum synth ?

Edited February 11, 2007 by Bogue

[tone5446]

Exclusive to Soul Source - Robert Elms and Jazzie b actually did visit the Casino - there they are in Dutch's Triumph, which he tells me he actually designed whilst still a schoolboy.

Tone (this one not that one)

[Guest rasfoz]

Jazzie b what a cock , tried to go up north to theese parties my ar*e

[Guest espo]

Frannie, Yusef, Bishop, Eddie et al

very 'colourful' bus trips those were Steve

Mike

You forgot Ricky Singh Lofty---I remember your colourful yawn on the way to Blackpool after Wigan---Took me weeks to get it out of me best bags---appy daze tho

[Guest]

The DVD set is the one i forked out for unfortunatly Simon I watched it once, thought what a load of dross & hid it away in a dark cupboard.

So i thought, mmmm, i always value Simon's opinions on here so i'll go & get it from the dusty depths & check.

I stick the first disc ' The Way It Was' in the dvd player & wait to see the way it was !!

" My heart keeps beating faster, my heart keeps beating faster, cue synthesised drum roll, my heart keeps beating faster, blah blah.

Fast forward, few old artists talking, not bad, play spot the Motor City artist. - fast forward , Motor City Films emblazened across the screen with 'My heart keeps beating e.t.c e.t.c as a backing track - fast forward ,Clips of people dancing thier hearts out, but the backing track is My heart keeps beating faster full f***** length in it's entirety, - fast forward , few bits of chat with actual real tracks as they were originaly recorded playing in the background ( unfortunatly only just about hear them) but real, as they were sounds - fast forward , 7 days is too long till i see you (or something like that) (no, not chuck wood unfortunatly) synthesised drum roll, 7 days blah blah blah in it's entirity ! - fast forward , present day Dobie Gray mimimng to Out on the floor - fast forward , Bobby Paris singing new version of 'Personaly' . Click off

No i think i was right the first time Simon, you really must take off those Levine tinted shades

Can i end by saying that i have nothing against Ian levine, & he has achieved more in his life than me or thousands of others ever will .

His finding & playing of the thousands of favourites in the early part of the scene should garuntee him free entry to any N Soul night or nighter in the country for that alone. But why is he so obssesed with that bloody drum synth ?

I hear what you're saying about the drum/sythn thing ..it's a vert very valid point. Believe it or not , Levinski isn't happy about it either. But to use the original music was, and still is, and probably always will be, absoultely impossible for a number of reasons. I'm not defending it because I think it's overused too, but at the same time I know why it was used. The new tracks on Ian's current CD takes the whole drum thing into account, yet people like Tim Brown are still being negative about it because the Northern scene is made up of purists and people who actually care about the music...which is what the whole thread is about really! Everybody, including Ian knows SWONS is flawed. But to just dismiss it outright is a shame. But as kentsoulclub and realsoulfan have said, it's a no win situation and the best way to avoid critisism is to do nothing. Where I agree entirely with both those statements, it would be a shame if the world stopped doing things just because some people didn't like them. I supposed that what this whole thread is about really. I really don't want to to talk about SWONS tho' 'cos thats not what the threads about.

[Scallybob]

There were plenty of soul records in the charts in the seventies, that's true, but the record companies in the UK weren't happy with it and ensured the A&R men got home-grown product plugged above it. Nothing wrong with that you might say, it's their job. But it left a legacy because there were no truly independent-minded DJ's giving a national platform to soul music. Searling's knowledge and radio-friendly delivery should have been snapped up but, even though he's highly ambitious, he wouldn't be the sort to compromise his values. So we end up with Trevor Nelson.

Soul music is imported music and there was a deliberate attempt by the record companies to keep it off the airwaves. The vested interests in the States did the same with the "Disco Sucks" thing. Blatantly racist-the threat being that black labels would upset the comfortable rock-biased record sales-but not challenged because as we all know America is the best democracy money can buy. Sometimes records came out of the UK clubs and got national acceptance by the suits but this was always more likely with big-label records because some of the profits came over here. Disco Demand singles didn't fit that so the Casualeers hardly got played on radio. If that had been a British act where the royalties were going to some London producer it would have been into the top five in no time.

Radio 1 was essentially a pop station but it had no specialist soul show. Peel did a fantastic job spotting and promoting new talent but there was no desire to deliver an equivalent service to anyone who wanted the same for non-British music. The BBC also had Whistle Test and varous other white middle class music shows. I agree more people would buy Human League records-and I thought they were a good pop group-but the BBC blatantly didn't cater for black music fans and consequently doesn't have a heritage to call on.

As far as the Northern scene being working class, that's true, the majority were. But that doesn't mean every time it's mentioned we need stereotyping with pictures of run-down alleyways and blokes working in factories.

The series isn't about Northern, I wish they wouldn't mention it as they blatantly don't have a clue.

Edited February 11, 2007 by ScallyBob

[macca]

I own this dvd set & have to say it's a question of highs & lows. nice to see artists that were previously just record labels to me. I loved hearing people like garnett mimms talking about 'ragavoy' & admitting he thought 'looking for you' was crap.

so in a way, it was certainly interesting comparing the artists' perceptions of what is good & bad with our own. one high point for me was seeing james fountain, now sadly departed. was that a mime jobbie, or a re-recording? others like lou johnson & billy butler already seemed to have one foot in the grave, so why not give them some badly deserved recognition. am I wrong here? I sat through the motor city section out of curiosity, mainly just to see how some of the artists had fared over the years.

on the whole I would give the project a thumbs up, it was certainly a very challenging thing to take on, a mammoth task indeed, and as abe lincoln/bob dylan once said, 'you can please some of the people part of the time, you can please all of the people part of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time'... or something like that.

macca

p.s.

do we have any info on the jimmy burns interview?

that rendition of I really love you (one of my all time faves) on the acoustic was something I hadn't expected at all. somehow I can't imagine him preening in a red stage suit like JJ Barnes. I thought jimmy burns was cool. I suppose talking about which ones were dragged out of crack houses for the occasion would be a bit libelous, wouldn't it? although somebody mentioned something on an earlier post...

MR/MS MOD: I'VE JUST REALISED I'M SERIOUSLY OFF TOPIC HERE. PLEASE DELETE IT OR MOVE IT WHERE YOU THINK IT FITS BEST. APOLOGIES, MACCA.

Edited February 11, 2007 by macca

[Guest]

Soul music is imported music and there was a deliberate attempt by the record companies to keep it off the airwaves. The vested interests in the States did the same with the "Disco Sucks" thing. Blatantly racist-the threat being that black labels would upset the comfortable rock-biased record sales-but not challenged because as we all know America is the best democracy money can buy. Sometimes records came out of the UK clubs and got national acceptance by the suits but this was always more likely with big-label records because some of the profits came over here. Disco Demand singles didn't fit that so the Casualeers hardly got played on radio. If that had been a British act where the royalties were going to some London producer it would have been into the top five in no time.

The series isn't about Northern, I wish they wouldn't mention it as they blatantly don't have a clue.

Agree with this ScallyBob..although a few were allowed through...lets not forget the huge success of Barry White, let's not forget that George MCrae's 'Rock Your Baby' was the top selling single across the whole world in it's year of release (apparently), and what about all those other UK Miami hits, All Platinum, The Chi- Lites, all those Philly International hits. The fact remains though that despite the success, this music was vastly under represented in the mainstream press and on mainstream TV and radio and that makes it even worse. But it's also true that Dance music in general (of any kind) was never taken seriously in the mainstream until relatively recently (the last 15 years maybe ?) and only then when it had become a 'White'.... and this'll piss a few off...'Straight' thing. The US Disco backlash was as much anti Gay as anti Black...maybe even more so because by the time it had happened 'Disco' leaned towards Pop rather than Soul.

As for the lack of Northern success in the charts with things like 'Dance Dance Dance'....my first exposure was definately The Tams. I remember as a 12 year old laughing at them on TOTP because they looked so old and they were probably younger than we all are now ! But the record was a number one hit. Tammi Lynn? R Dean Taylor? Archie Bell? Mistura (ugh) Roger Collins, Guy Darrell, The Exciters, Frankie Valli, Wayne Gibson, The Javells, The Newbeats, Jackie Wilson, Evelyn Thomas, The Formations, The Flamingos....they all charted, some higher than others.

But surely the majority of the Northern scene has spent it's time not wanting the media interfering ?

[macca]

damned right simon. hues corporation was another monster hit. scally: I watched OGWT in the 70's & I'm not from a middle class background, though my dad was chief buyer at british sugar in peterborough. do I qualify for middle class status?

I think commercial, mainstream disco-funk orientated music (K&TG, EW&F) got more than its fair share of media attention/radio exposure. what happened with saturday night fever's appropriation of the disco phenomenon is another debate entirely. there is no doubt whatsoever that most of the hallowed 70's mecca/ritz era 'northern' classics came directly from the US gay scene, something that some levine baiting folk will never acknowledge in a million years. it's a pity low cost flights didn't exist back then, or else the non-believers could have been flown over for a weekend's exposure, so to speak.

Edited February 11, 2007 by macca

[Godzilla]

PS and BTW - the BBC - who, by the way, have never compiled the charts at any time since we've had them - have never 'refused to allow' any configuration of repertoire into the chart. ...

...There's also a rule that anything which runs over 20 minutes has to be classed as an LP, and I'm all for that, too

That last bit didn't apply in the 80s did it? When The Fall released "Slates" on 10 inch in 1981 it was considered ineligible for the singles chart as it had six tracks so wasn't classed as an EP, and ran over 20 minutes. It was too short to be considered an album though, and despite being one of the band's biggest sellers didn't register in any chart at the time.

Nowt to do with soul music of course ( err.. except for Ghost in my House, maybe...) but a nugget for the anoraks on here

Godz

[Pete S]

Which makes it all the more tragic that it was totaly f***** up then Simon !

Lets face it, it ended up being nothing more than a showcase & attempt at rescue for the Motor City project (imho)

If, just for a second, you remove all of the artists footage to one side, what you are left with is the best examination ever of the early years of Northern Soul up until around 1975, after that you can see levine lose interest after he leaves the Mecca behind and the following years are kind of rushed through. But come on, credit where it's due, to drive down to Temple Street just to film the street sign in the Catacombs section...to find all those old faces off the scene who were names heard of but not seen for 30 years. leave your bias at the door and watch it as a documentary not a Northern Soul karaoke show and you'll discover it is the best docuimentary on NS ever made, by a million miles.

[Scallybob]

Macca, I don't think what class backgound people are from is relevant. I work in Corporate Finance and I've always been in good jobs: middle class I suppose but my Dad was a lorry driver.

What gets me is that working class lads in the south are seen by the media as "edgy", having guts and spirit and breaking out of their existence by developing punk or being Paul Weller. But northern blokes are just thickos who wear baggy pants and like old records nobody else wanted. Again, it's largely because Wigan or Cleethorpes is a long way from London and we might not be able to make a proper latte so they've never been to find out.

Jazzy B probably knows as much about Northern as I do about the London sado-masochist scene. The BBC wouldn't ask me about that, so why do they ask him about Northern?

And no, I don't know anything about it!

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Well, well, and well. It seems after a fairly inviting episode 1, the beeb in their unwise wisdom decided to degrade Soul in the UK by making meaningless association with 'faces' of UK popular music. Why , oh why don't these producers do their research properly. Never has the UK Soul scene been so misrepresented than in Episode 2. Made by people who literally haven't got a clue! Complete ignorance not to ask the right questions to the right people.

Btw you can leave comments on the Soul Brittania/BBC web site about this- I suggest we get rid of all our pent up anger on there by going to :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/music/soulbritannia/

Bottom right hand corner- click on comments- they need their arses kicked that's for sure.

Regards

WELL,

I`VE COME ONTO THIS VERY LATE I KNOW, BUT I MUST ADD A COUPLE OF OBSERVATIONS.

I DIDN`T SEE THE FIRST PROGRAMME SO I CANT COMMENT BUT I DID SEE THIS WEEKS EFFORT, SO............

HAVE YOU EVER NOTICED THAT THEY DRAG OUT THE SAME FEW `CELEBRETIES` TO GIVE US ALL THEIR ANGLE THE MUSIC ? I UNDERSTAND THAT THE IDEA OF THE PROGRAM WAS TO HIGHLIGHT THE INFLUENCE OF OUR MUSIC ONTO BRITISH SOCIETY IN GENERAL BUT WHEELING OUT THE SAME PEOPLE EVERY TIME IS UNNECESSARY I THINK...I LIKE PAUL WELLER AND I VALUE HIS CONTRIBUTION TO THE PROGRAM BUT THE LIKES OF JAZZIE B SEEM TO ENRAGE EVERYONE INTO THIS SIDE OF THE SCENE WITH HIS NEGATIVE COMMENTS..........I BELIEVE THE ISSUE OF RACISM WITHIN BRITISH SOCIETY,INCLUDING THE SOUL SCENE, TO BE A DIFFERENT SUBJECT AND TARRING THE ENTIRE NORTHERN SCENE WITH THAT PARTICULAR BRUSH IS JUST PLAIN WRONG.

I`M SURE THAT JAZZIE B HAS GENUINELY FELT THE OUTSIDER AT CERTAIN GIGS IN THE PAST BUT LIKE TONY ROUNCE SAID EARLIER I`M SURE THE SAME VIBE COULD BE FELT AT THE SOUL TO SOUL GIGS IN LONDON.........RACISM WORKS AT ALL LEVELS,LET ME TELL YOU.

ON THE SUBJECT OF NORMAN JAY,I HAVE MET HIM ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS AND HE SEEMS A VERY GENUINE,DOWN TO EARTH GUY WHO JUST LOVES HIS MUSIC FOR WHAT IT IS. HE DEFINATELY DID GO THE MECCA BECAUSE CHARLIE REES[A MANCHESTER LAD,LIVING IN LONDON] REMEMBERS HIM GOING ON THE TRAIN WITH THEM. NOT THAT IT REALLY MATTERS,BUT HE DEFINATELY WAS KNOCKING AROUND BACK THEN.

GETTING BACK TO THE PROGRAM,IT SEEMED TO JUMP FROM GENUINE SOUL MUSIC APPRECIATION OF THE NORTHERN SCENE TO THE UNDENIABLE INFLUENCE OF REGGAE MUSIC ON THE LATE 60`S EARLY 70`S SKINHEAD SCENE. SURELY, THIS IS WHERE IT ALL BECOMES BLURRED ISN`T IT?

THE BLACK POPULATION IN BRITAIN,CERTAINLY IN THOSE DAYS ANYWAY, WOULD HAVE BEEN ALMOST ENTIRLEY OF CARRIBEAN DESCENT,SO ITS NOT SURPRISING REALLY THAT REGGAE[THE SOUL MUSIC OF JAMAICA], WAS THE MUSIC OF CHOICE FOR MOST BLACK YOUNGSTERS. ADDED TO THAT WAS ITS LONGSTANDING REBELIOUS NATURE,AN OBVIOUS ATTRACTION TO THE DISAFFECTED YOUTH,[OF ALL COLOURS].

WHAT OF THE FUNK SCENE ? THERE ARE SO MANY KNOWLEDGABLE PEOPLE WHO COULD HAVE BEEN ASKED THEIR OPPINIONS ON ALL ASPECTS OF THE INFLUENCE OF SOUL MUSIC ON BRITISH CULTURE,IT REALLY IS A WASTED OPPORTUNITY TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT. FROM THE VERY FIRST MODS RIGHT THROUGH TO TODAYS MOVERS AND SHAKERS...........THE MUSIC, THE CLOTHES[OH, THE CLOTHES!] THE CLUBS,THE DJ`S ETC, ETC

CANT SOMEONE DO IT ALL JUSTICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BEST, IVOR JONES

[Guest Bogue]

I hear what you're saying about the drum/sythn thing ..it's a vert very valid point. Believe it or not , Levinski isn't happy about it either. But to use the original music was, and still is, and probably always will be, absoultely impossible for a number of reasons. I'm not defending it because I think it's overused too, but at the same time I know why it was used. The new tracks on Ian's current CD takes the whole drum thing into account, yet people like Tim Brown are still being negative about it because the Northern scene is made up of purists and people who actually care about the music...which is what the whole thread is about really! Everybody, including Ian knows SWONS is flawed. But to just dismiss it outright is a shame. But as kentsoulclub and realsoulfan have said, it's a no win situation and the best way to avoid critisism is to do nothing. Where I agree entirely with both those statements, it would be a shame if the world stopped doing things just because some people didn't like them. I supposed that what this whole thread is about really. I really don't want to to talk about SWONS tho' 'cos thats not what the threads about.

Yeh, shouldn't have gone off topic, can't remember why we did, i think it was to do with I L's cameo on the show.

Which again was probably wrong to comment on because, as usually happens, he probably

contributed lots of interesting stuff in the interview & the producer picks out the one crappy bit of it because it fits his own knowledge of the subject.

If, just for a second, you remove all of the artists footage to one side, what you are left with is the best examination ever of the early years of Northern Soul up until around 1975, after that you can see levine lose interest after he leaves the Mecca behind and the following years are kind of rushed through. But come on, credit where it's due, to drive down to Temple Street just to film the street sign in the Catacombs section...to find all those old faces off the scene who were names heard of but not seen for 30 years. leave your bias at the door and watch it as a documentary not a Northern Soul karaoke show and you'll discover it is the best docuimentary on NS ever made, by a million miles.

Sorry, back off topic just to answer.

Possibly true that Pete, but it's hard when it is continually broken up with the backing track & performances, you tend to forget where you were so to speak.

Maybe they should release a documentary only version, could be a good seller

Back on track.

Scallybob has put some great points over

That was another disapointing thing for me about the seris, that probably the time when soul music was to the fore in the 70's has been hardly touched on.

But seeing how the producer is working, that will probably come in the last episode.

Edited February 11, 2007 by Bogue

[Guest]

Macca, I don't think what class backgound people are from is relevant. I work in Corporate Finance and I've always been in good jobs: middle class I suppose but my Dad was a lorry driver.

What gets me is that working class lads in the south are seen by the media as "edgy", having guts and spirit and breaking out of their existence by developing punk or being Paul Weller. But northern blokes are just thickos who wear baggy pants and like old records nobody else wanted. Again, it's largely because Wigan or Cleethorpes is a long way from London and we might not be able to make a proper latte so they've never been to find out.

Jazzy B probably knows as much about Northern as I do about the London sado-masochist scene. The BBC wouldn't ask me about that, so why do they ask him about Northern?

And no, I don't know anything about it!

Blimey Bob, who's sterotyping now!

What about that whole Manchester scally music thing that went on a few years ago? All that Hacienda stuff? What about The Beatles? What about the fact that most of the people who live in London don't actually come from London originally at all and a lot of them moved down here from the North?? Hasn't 'The North' spent the last 15 years trendying itself up?

My best friends across thirty years have variously been from Rugby, Kent via Australia, Newark, Leicester, Blackpool, Kent again, Middlesex, Scotland, Bath, Birmingham, Manchester, Wembley and Argentina. I met them all in London. I'm very 'down' with the Northerners me. I just found this in my kitchen cupboard.

P.S. what exactly are 'Uncle Joe's Meat Balls'?

[Scallybob]

I don't like stereotyping anyone to be honest. I was in France recently and the people were dead friendly-yet most think they aren't. Why? Because they haven't been and spoken to the French. The point I'm making is that programme makers don't research their subject adequately. That might work for reality TV shows telling you how to put up a shelf but when you get a knowledgeable community like the Northern Soul scene it enrages people.

And it's Uncle Joes Mint Balls! They keep you all aglow, give them to your granny and watch the bugger go.

https://www.uncle-joes.com/

[Guest]

My fave bit of the programme was seeing that Skinhead's lovely green/olive harrington at the start, haven't seeen one that colour for a long time, i want one!

Simon

The guy sporting those lambchop sideburns and green harrington jacket was ECCLES aka Danny Arkins , the appointed top boy @ Chelsea in those heady skinhead days. 69/70

The Terracing was the North Stand End @ Stamford Bridge . Where many a time I observed his almost military style of terrace ambush being carried out on unsuspecting rivial supporters.

It was also a few years later around 75/76 that a small contingent of Soul loving North Standers , would travel to Wigan for the odd all nighter.

With a London DJ called Alan Sullivan, who specialised in Funk and Northern and was also a bit of a face on the terraces.

I was part of that contingent which also included later day" House "Dj and record label owner Terry Farley . Also later day Acid House promoter GaryHaiseman.

In fact we also attended the Northern Soul events at Yate nr Bristol and Shades of Green Club @ Camberley.

However location more or less denoted our preference for Funk and we attended Crackers mostly and the CALI at Dunstable, and a host of other funk nights spread thropughout London the South Coast and the home counties.

The CALI [ California Ballrooms] a venue that was awash with live Soul acts throughout the 60,s/ 70,s, [ not to mentioned on Soul Britainia].

Tammi Lynn, William Bell,Al Green,Doris Troy,Eddie Floyd,The Four Tops, Jimmy Ruffin,Edwin Starr, Junior Walker,Fatback Band, johnny Guitar Watson, and thats just off the top of my head.

London and the south often get totally overlooked in the Soul history of UK clubbing .

Having just read IVORS comments I,m in total agreement the whole funk aspect of the south gets not a mention in any of these documentries.

Caister for instance is NOT what soul in Londons small club circuits was about.

Crackers , the Goldmine, Chags, Lacy Lady, skindles, the cali ballrooms, pre the en mass Caister was more underground and ran parralell to the northern scene.

Finally as a London boy [well old git now] I certainly found Jazzy B,s comments totally out of context, on Northern Soul.

I remember my first visit to the Casino , about 8 of us went up by National Coach and allthough being slightly apprehensive

was meet by only friendly people who had no hang ups on race.

The first time I stood on the Balconey in awe of the dancers, and fineally took to the floor at about 4am after plucking up the courage.

Lastly and this is a London thing, Robert Elms for as much stick as the guy seems to be recieving on this thread, The London airwaves would be a lesser place without his enthusisum for music, fashion and british youth cultures.

Edited February 11, 2007 by portobelloboy69

[macca]

Macca, I don't think what class backgound people are from is relevant. I work in Corporate Finance and I've always been in good jobs: middle class I suppose but my Dad was a lorry driver.

What gets me is that working class lads in the south are seen by the media as "edgy", having guts and spirit and breaking out of their existence by developing punk or being Paul Weller. But northern blokes are just thickos who wear baggy pants and like old records nobody else wanted. Again, it's largely because Wigan or Cleethorpes is a long way from London and we might not be able to make a proper latte so they've never been to find out.

Jazzy B probably knows as much about Northern as I do about the London sado-masochist scene. The BBC wouldn't ask me about that, so why do they ask him about Northern?

And no, I don't know anything about it!

thank gawd for clarse mobility then!

I'm a toffee nosed git relocated to northern spain who spends most of his time writing for a middle class british travel journal. I understand what you're saying about the media portrayal of the likes weller & company. it's galling. I also think

it's a bit late now to try & change this perception of the northern soul scene. modern day NS fans are, by & large, seen as obsessive, foaming at the mouth nutters, engaged in recapturing stolen moments of their lost youth.

but then again, who really cares what they think? I care not a tinker's cuss...

[Scallybob]

obsessive, foaming at the mouth nutters, engaged in recapturing stolen moments of their lost youth.

Sounds like me!

[Dave Moore]

modern day NS fans are, by & large, seen as obsessive, foaming at the mouth nutters, engaged in recapturing stolen moments of their lost youth.

but then again, who really cares what they think? I care not a tinker's cuss...

Took the words right out of my foaming mouth!

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Soulsmith]

The guy sporting those lambchop sideburns and green harrington jacket was ECCLES aka Danny Arkins , the appointed top boy @ Chelsea in those heady skinhead days. 69/70

The Terracing was the North Stand End @ Stamford Bridge . Where many a time I observed his almost military style of terrace ambush being carried out on unsuspecting rivial supporters.

It was also a few years later around 75/76 that a small contingent of Soul loving North Standers , would travel to Wigan for the odd all nighter.

With a London DJ called Alan Sullivan, who specialised in Funk and Northern and was also a bit of a face on the terraces.

I was part of that contingent which also included later day" House "Dj and record label owner Terry Farley . Also later day Acid House promoter GaryHaiseman.

In fact we also attended the Northern Soul events at Yate nr Bristol and Shades of Green Club @ Camberley.

However location more or less denoted our preference for Funk and we attended Crackers mostly and the CALI at Dunstable, and a host of other funk nights spread thropughout London the South Coast and the home counties.

The CALI [ California Ballrooms] a venue that was awash with live Soul acts throughout the 60,s/ 70,s, [ not to mentioned on Soul Britainia].

Tammi Lynn, William Bell,Al Green,Doris Troy,Eddie Floyd,The Four Tops, Jimmy Ruffin,Edwin Starr, Junior Walker,Fatback Band, johnny Guitar Watson, and thats just off the top of my head.

London and the south often get totally overlooked in the Soul history of UK clubbing .

Having just read IVORS comments I,m in total agreement the whole funk aspect of the south gets not a mention in any of these documentries.

Caister for instance is NOT what soul in Londons small club circuits was about.

Crackers , the Goldmine, Chags, Lacy Lady, skindles, the cali ballrooms, pre the en mass Caister was more underground and ran parralell to the northern scene.

Finally as a London boy [well old git now] I certainly found Jazzy B,s comments totally out of context, on Northern Soul.

I remember my first visit to the Casino , about 8 of us went up by National Coach and allthough being slightly apprehensive

was meet by only friendly people who had no hang ups on race.

The first time I stood on the Balconey in awe of the dancers, and fineally took to the floor at about 4am after plucking up the courage.

Lastly and this is a London thing, Robert Elms for as much stick as the guy seems to be recieving on this thread, The London airwaves would be a lesser place without his enthusisum for music, fashion and british youth cultures.

Thats an impressive first post.

I remember Alan Sullivan as an out & out Jazz Funk DJ from Skindles (Maidenhead) days. I don't think he was ever into Northern, although I'd be quite happy to be proved wrong - a situation which seems to occur frequently.

Ref Robert Elms, pls note that whatever was happening ref "music, fashion and british youth cultures" he was there right at the inception. Not just northen, EVERYTHING. He frankly does my head in, just a smarmy know it all.

On a more positive note I see that Bisley is your regular haunt, if you're along next saturday I'd be more than happy to buy you a drink & not talk about Robert Elms.

Col.

[manus]

I know is was a long time ago but the guy in the green harrington was a geordie as I posted earlier. It was part of a documentary done by Look North and shown in 1970. I wore a red harriington in those day's and remember those blokes fairly well. The small one on the terrace footage wearing the braces was Colin Proud who came along occasionally to Soul nights.

All the best

Manus

[Pete S]

I know is was a long time ago but the guy in the green harrington was a geordie as I posted earlier. It was part of a documentary done by Look North and shown in 1970. I wore a red harriington in those day's and remember those blokes fairly well. The small one on the terrace footage wearing the braces was Colin Proud who came along occasionally to Soul nights.

All the best

Manus

It was definitely Newcastle v Chelsea and it looked like the old St james park to me...can't really see three rogue Chelsea fans going solo into the home end

[manus]

It was definitely Newcastle v Chelsea and it looked like the old St james park to me...can't really see three rogue Chelsea fans going solo into the home end

It's was St James, Pete, the documentary looked at Newcastle gangs and also featured the Blackburns who were a notorious local Hell's Angel type gang at the time. The Newcastle end in those day's was actually the Leazes end but our three Likely Lads were on the prowl in the Gallowgate.

All the best

Manus

[Guest]

I know is was a long time ago but the guy in the green harrington was a geordie as I posted earlier. It was part of a documentary done by Look North and shown in 1970. I wore a red harriington in those day's and remember those blokes fairly well. The small one on the terrace footage wearing the braces was Colin Proud who came along occasionally to Soul nights.

All the best

Manus

This particular Clip of Chelseas ECCLES has been used in various skinhead programmes over the years.

And as a London football fan who was regularly in close proximity to Mr Arkins in pubs, football specials and either up The Shed or on the North Stand I can assure you its ECCLES.

His photo has also been used in a couple of books one being Hoolifan and another is The Influencial Factor a book about

mods.

I was actually speaking to the guy about a year ago in the Jolly Maltsters pub nr Chelseas ground , he looks just the same but now with grey hair.

Its common knowledge in Skinhead folklore that this is Arkins in the clip.

I can also recall the occassions that Newcastle Utd came to Stamford Bridge around the start of the Skinhead phase.

They dressed mostly in Denims jeans and jean jackets, many wore long hair and many certainly had,nt been overtook by Skinhead styling.

In fact it was the Geordies who used to come along in the big wide bootomed Skinner jeans , with a turn up on a bit latter.

Thats how you knew in London who was who.

Northern footie fans sported the Skinners look, while London lads wore mainly Levi, or sta prest with a straight leg.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

This particular Clip of Chelseas ECCLES has been used in various skinhead programmes over the years.

And as a London football fan who was regularly in close proximity to Mr Arkins in pubs, football specials and either up The Shed or on the North Stand I can assure you its ECCLES.

His photo has also been used in a couple of books one being Hoolifan and another is The Influencial Factor a book about

mods.

I was actually speaking to the guy about a year ago in the Jolly Maltsters pub nr Chelseas ground , he looks just the same but now with grey hair.

Its common knowledge in Skinhead folklore that this is Arkins in the clip.

I can also recall the occassions that Newcastle Utd came to Stamford Bridge around the start of the Skinhead phase.

They dressed mostly in Denims jeans and jean jackets, many wore long hair and many certainly had,nt been overtook by Skinhead styling.

In fact it was the Geordies who used to come along in the big wide bootomed Skinner jeans , with a turn up on a bit latter.

Thats how you knew in London who was who.

Northern footie fans sported the Skinners look, while London lads wore mainly Levi, or sta prest with a straight leg.

. NOW YOU`RE TALKING. THE GEORDIES ARE PROBABLY STILL WEARING `EM !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest mel brat]

How to avoid doing things wrong...

Don't do anything.

Nonsense. I've noticed that the (highly paid) TV researchers are getting increasingly lax, and this is patently obvious in many other television programmes too. (I'ts called "dumbing down" in some quarters...) A little more effort in the drafting stages could resolve most of the stupid gaffes they make quite easily, but they just can't be bothered it seems.

[Guest mel brat]

I think history is being re-written here. Was more than 10% of the Northern crowd Black?

Given that it considered itself a Soul scene, if even half of the punters were Black, thats not a very good percentage is it ? The Black kids weren't there in any number because they were either listening to Reggae or Funk !

Yes, that's absolutely true (in my area at least) Most of the Afro-Carribean guys I knew and encountered were almost exclusively into Reggae (not even funk!) in the early to mid-Seventies.

(One exception was Lenny Henry who was hanging around with Rod Stuart fans!)

Remember also that Reggae was evolving at that time with the advent of "Roots" and the Rastafarian movement as typified by Bob Marley.

[Guest]

Thats an impressive first post.

I remember Alan Sullivan as an out & out Jazz Funk DJ from Skindles (Maidenhead) days. I don't think he was ever into Northern, although I'd be quite happy to be proved wrong - a situation which seems to occur frequently.

Ref Robert Elms, pls note that whatever was happening ref "music, fashion and british youth cultures" he was there right at the inception. Not just northen, EVERYTHING. He frankly does my head in, just a smarmy know it all.

On a more positive note I see that Bisley is your regular haunt, if you're along next saturday I'd be more than happy to buy you a drink & not talk about Robert Elms.

Col.

Soulsmith indeed Sully did dj at Skindles under the banner of AMERICAS, which later moved to Southall into a night club there and became a mid week affair.

Sulivan also djed at various venues, The Merry makers hall Langley, Slough town football club, the birds nest discoteque slough, the dolphin hotel slough, Slough community centre when it had the massive wooden dance floor [some of these doos were allnighters]. Skindles maidenhead, Spiders web slough.

He was a respected local dj, who also did the odd coach booking to Wigan.

In fact if it was,nt for him I doubt I would have ever got into Northern Soul.

I spent many a Saturday morning lining up outside Comtempo records in Hanway St with him to buy new releases.

He sent off for all of my mates Wigan memberships was a great organiser.

We became known as SULLYS Soulboys which was basically the Slough soul lot.

Football and Music was his passion like all of us in those days in our late teens.

Last I heard he was living in Bracknell, working at Heathrow but moving to the States shortly.

I bumped into him about 10 yrs ago, he said he,d sold all his records now.

But in his day he played a selection of Funk and Northern.

As for ELMSEY you either love him or hate him...personally I have been an avide listener to his show for years, I,ll gladly have a chat with you at Bisley if I go next week, I must say though Mr Elms has always proclaimed to be a Soulboy into funk rather than Northern.

His funky friday set sways mainly to commercial stuff mostly, but theres far worse than him on the airwaves, just look at the same old dross Smooth Fm churn out day in day out.

And while we on the subject of radio presenters , would be nice if Mr Eddie Piller came back on the funk show on radio 6.

Far superior show than Craig Charles.

[Guest]

there was a very small proportion of Black punters at commercial Soul do's in Stoke in the 70ts...(and more or less no Asians)...i DJed (not very well ) at the Place 73-74 ...Placemate 75-76.....Bowie/Roxy were very popular..also the 70ts pop stuff....Soul wise...Northern Soul was banned by the management....but i got a few in......Carstairs.....Mr Floods Party etc....the commercial Soul was Kool +Gang/Ohio players/Barry White/War/Chairmen/Chilites and the Motown artists ........i had a great time.....

_____________________________________________________________

Stafford footage mixed with Wigan to make it seem the same...et al..(nice to see Duncan P dancing at TOTW tho )......

Ey up duck....

I missed the show, but Crumb just told me that he saw it & said the clip of Duncan was at Wigan (?!?) either way I'd have liked to see it, just for nostalgia's sake.....& may I add, that Mr Pollet is of mixed race, so up yours Jazzy!

X

[Guest]

. NOW YOU`RE TALKING. THE GEORDIES ARE PROBABLY STILL WEARING `EM !!!!!!!!!!!!

Well it all adds up very nicely those baggy bottomed skinner jeans that came in denin and latter white were the trademark of the 70,s northern youth.

That just gave the game away straight away.

It was the same on the Soulscene up north baggies , down south parralells and dare I admitt it Pegs.

Check out those old issues of Black Music and Blues and Soul for the evidence. via the classifieds.

[Simsy]

Programs repeated at 12-20 on BBC 4 if anyone missed it or even wants to watch it again

So is Idol, ITV2 here and there ..

Yep. American Idol (on same time ITV2) more entertaining.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

As for ELMSEY you either love him or hate him...

...No, you don't. Nobody loves him, except him - and possibly you, by the sound of things.

His show would be OK if it didn't have this bloke called Robert Elms coming on between the records, news and travel reports....

[Guest mel brat]

[macca]

I remember people wearing white skinners with cherry red airwear & levi jackets, always at half mast. that was later though, around 1973. male hairdos were mostly layered, blow-dried centre parting & rolled under at the back. is this what you mean by 'they wore their hair long'? I remember that 'cos, like somebody else on this forum, I used to work saturdays in one of the town's trendy hairdressers. peterboro' was neither north nor south though...

[Guest mel brat]

Who said anything about NORTHERN soul?

[Guest mel brat]

[Guest mel brat]

He (Levine) just can't get over the fact that the Casino, whatever you may think of it's music policy, was so much bigger than his Mecca & he wasn't a leading part of it...

Like so many things, "Bigger", but definitely not better!

[Guest mel brat]

...my understanding is that 'Soul Britannia' is about British Soul acts reather than the Soul scene in Britain ?

So what about The Real Thing? Surely they deserve some Soul credit here, or was their recording career entirely in vain?

[Pete S]

This particular Clip of Chelseas ECCLES has been used in various skinhead programmes over the years.

And as a London football fan who was regularly in close proximity to Mr Arkins in pubs, football specials and either up The Shed or on the North Stand I can assure you its ECCLES.

His photo has also been used in a couple of books one being Hoolifan and another is The Influencial Factor a book about

mods.

His face on the front of Hoolifan looks like that of a monkey and has been messed about with so that you can't really recognise who it is, he looks like Gaz from Supergrass. Not only that, but the picture on the cover has been removed completely from the current publication and replaced with another one!

[Pete S]

Like so many things, "Bigger", but definitely not better!

Pah!

[Guest]

...No, you don't. Nobody loves him, except him - and possibly you, by the sound of things.

His show would be OK if it didn't have this bloke called Robert Elms coming on between the records, news and travel reports....

yeah he can be a bit of twit at times mr elms, but tell me do you know of a better radio programme to willow away the working day whilst stuck in London traffic, because I have,nt found one yet. If you do let me know.

XFM VIRGIN HEART SMOOTHMAGIC..........................................?

Elmsey knows his stuff for sure .

[Guest]

I think they were covered under the 'Chants' heading...keep up at the back there.

Funny how this thread got round to clothes and hair eventually and now of most of 'em have no hair.

[Guest]

His face on the front of Hoolifan looks like that of a monkey and has been messed about with so that you can't really recognise who it is, he looks like Gaz from Supergrass. Not only that, but the picture on the cover has been removed completely from the current publication and replaced with another one!

Your perfectly correct Pete , tampering of the mush indeed on the hoolifan book.but its still him.

Infact The Influencial Factor book has the exact same photo.....but with the boat race fully intact.

As a young sprog about 17 I,d meet up in the white hart pub at fulham broadway , with the likes of Eccles And Greenaway

before matches.

I know who the man is.

The same lads with me would be at Soul nights by evening.

PS Did you know Robert ELMS once was in the famous Toxteth Liverpool group called The REAL THING...not a lot of people know that.

His big moment being lead vocal on CAN YOU FEEL THE FORCE.

Edited February 11, 2007 by portobelloboy69

[Pete S]

Your perfectly correct Pete , tampering of the mush indeed on the hoolifan book.but its still him.

Infact The Influencial Factor book has the exact same photo.....but with the boat race fully intact.

As a young sprog about 17 I,d meet up in the white hart pub at fulham broadway , with the likes of Eccles And Greenaway

before matches.

I know who the man is.

The same lads with me would be at Soul nights by evening.

Chris Lalor, I don't think he's on here but he's on KTF and he's a good old lad living in Belgium, he's originally from hersham and his sister used to go out with Greenaway, I remember him telling me a few tales. Died a couple of years ago I believe. My goodness I've seen some run ins with Chelsea down here, a massive battle in either 72 or 73 when we won 7-1, a nasty one around 77/78 when I think we were both in the 2nd division, though I especially remember 81 when some Chelsea bravely attacked a bunch of old gits and children in the enclosure were there were no Wolves lads at all. Then again, I'd swap then for now in no time...I don't even go anymore...don't like sitting down

[Guest]

I think maybe we,re going off topic here, My ownlly connection with Chelsea was the fact that most of the guys I,d go clubbing with followed them , and were equally mad about Soul Music.

Greenaway was an organiser , he worked for BR and got trains booked. Arkins was the face for many years.

The leader , I did,nt even support the blues.

I do remember being at Wolves though one year, last game of season mid to late 70,s when both teams got promoted the same day.

And both sets of fans invaded the pitch at the final whistle, and some mayhem broke out.

Nowadays I,d much rather spend my spare cash on records rather than football, the premiership full of import players on silly money. I have no love for the game anymore.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

I think history is being re-written here. Was more than 10% of the Northern crowd Black?

Given that it considered itself a Soul scene, if even half of the punters were Black, thats not a very good percentage is it ? The Black kids weren't there in any number because they were either listening to Reggae or Funk !

YOU KNOW WHAT SIMON,I`VE NEVER REALLY GOT THIS. I DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HANG-UP IS REGARDING THE APPARENT LACK OF BLACK FACES AT NORTHERN/MODERN SOUL GIGS. IT DOESN`T SURPRISE ME IN THE SLIGHTEST. FOR A START,THERE AREN`T AS MANY BLACK PEOPLE IN THE NORTH OF ENGLAND,ITS NATURAL HOME.

I THINK WE, COLLECTIVELY, JUST LIKE THE MUSIC FOR WHAT IT IS AND DONT REALLY WORRY TOO MUCH ABOUT WHAT THE LATEST FADS OR TRENDS ARE WITHIN THE SPHERE OF SOUL / BLACK MUSIC.

IT WOULD SEEM TO ME ,HOWEVER,THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE BLACK CROWD NEVER REALLY CARED THAT MUCH FOR NORTHERN SOUL IN ALL ITS GUISES.......

WHY SHOULD IT FOLLOW THAT THE BRITISH BLACK POPULATION HAVE A MORE PRONOUNCED OR PROFOUND UNDERSTANDING OF SOUL MUSIC[RARE OR OTHERWISE],THAN THE OBSESSIVE RARE SOUL FAN[WHATEVER COLOUR HE OR SHE MAY BE] ?

THE FACT IS THAT SOUL MUSIC IS AN AMERICAN ARTFORM AND WAS TOTALLY ALIEN TO BRITISH SOCIETY AS A WHOLE........ INCLUDING THE BRITISH BLACK POPULATION WHICH WAS SURELY ALMOST ENTIRELY OF CARRIBEAN DESCENT. HENCE THE BRITISH BLACK OBSESSION WITH JAMAICAN MUSIC.

I REMEMBER READING AN ARTICLE BY NORMAN JAY IN WHICH HE STATED THAT GOODTIMES[HIS SOUNDSYSTEM],WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TO START PLAYING SOUL MUSIC AS OPPOSED TO REGGAE TO THE BLACK AUDIENCE.ACCORDING TO HIM,SOUL MUSIC WAS VEIWED AS `POOFS MUSIC` BY THE GENERAL CROWD!!!!!!!

THEN THERE`S THE ISSUE OF PLAYING OLD MUSIC. I REMEMBER LISTENING FOR SOME TIME TO SOUTH LONDONS CHOICE FM BACK IN THE 90`S[COMMONLY LAUDED AS A BLACK STATION]. I REMEMBER BEING STAGGERED AT THE LACK OF VARIETY OF OLD MATERIAL THEY WOULD PLAY.IF YOU WANTED OLD ROCKSTEADY,REGGAE,THEN THERE WERE SPECIAL SHOWS CATERING FOR THAT. ANYTHING OTHER THAN BOG STANDARD 70`S SOUL STUFF FORGET IT. 60`S SOUL ? FORGET IT. AND I COULD ONLY PUT THAT DOWN TO A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ,OR ,FOR THAT MATTER ,INTEREST.......

DOES IT MAKE THE SCENE ANY WORSE ? I FOR ONE WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE INTEGRATION BUT I BELIEVE THIS BOILS DOWN TO MORE OF A CULTURAL DIFFERENCE THAN ANYTHING ELSE........

WHY ARE WE BEATING OURSELVES UP OVER THIS,I JUST DONT GET IT........

RIGHTON IVOR JONES