Popcorn Origins - you'll know them...................

[Chris L]

One night I asked Kev Roberts this question : Name me a music scene that started in 1970s by working class kids playing 1960s soul music, holding all niters, collecting, buying and selling records? His answer : “The Northen Soul scene” I replied “wrong (of course he was right) the Belgian Popcorn scene.

Us Brits discovered the Belgian Popcorn scene quite late in its life. By then (just like the NS scene) it had deviated from its origins to something that an original fan wouldn't recognise. A mate sent me this little clip of its origins early 1970s. Check out the fans, clothes, the smiles (and the chicks drinking beer out of a bottle) and the music (I know they're only short clips - but you'll recognise them). No wonder I fell in love with Gilbert  Thanks dude.

 

[Geeselad]

Thanks for sharing, great clip, that looks awfully like sousann at 2.52

[The Yank]

Thanks for posting ! 

[Benji]

From what I understand many of the original core Popcorn crowd were italian ex-pats that went to Belgium for better jobs. The Popcorn dance style reminds of the typical now older couples dance style in Italy. Is this how the Popcorn dance came about? From Italy?

[Tomangoes]

Isn't POIROT country where Marvin Gaye eloped to for a while?

The trappist beer is quality, the chocolate superb...had a few good bols nights in Antwerp.

Great minds think alike!

Not sure about that dancing though....keep thi sen to thi sen...none of that holding hands malarkey if you don't mind.

Ed

[Benji]

Marvin was in the Netherlands, not Belgium.

[Tomangoes]

 

Really?

Quote:

Ostend, the Belgian town where Marvin Gaye cleaned up, is the creative birthplace of Sexual Healing

When Motown legend Marvin Gaye moved to Ostend in 1981, he was washed up and in debt, and dealing with a serious drug addiction problem

He wrote Sexual Healing during his time there. To honour him, Ostend set up a self-guided Marvin Gaye tour, and has plans for a soul festival.

Ed

 

[Chris L]

7 hours ago, Benji said:

Marvin was in the Netherlands, not Belgium.

Hi lived in Ostend, I used to see him when I was doing my rounds at night. I didn't dare go in the cafe he drank at but could see him, usually with 3 or 4 friends with him. That cafe still exists and is now called "Marvin's place".

[Chris L]

9 hours ago, Benji said:

From what I understand many of the original core Popcorn crowd were italian ex-pats that went to Belgium for better jobs. The Popcorn dance style reminds of the typical now older couples dance style in Italy. Is this how the Popcorn dance came about? From Italy?

No, nothing to do with that, it started really in Oostende when Gilbert Govaert (a really Flemish name   ) and his mate began an all-niter. It was for quite a time only happening in Flanders, it did spread to the rest of the country later. The Italians who live in Belgium are not ex-pats but immigrant workers who worked either in the steel plants or usually down the coal mines in Limburg. At all the Popcorn revivals that happen here are still mostly Flemish but you will see some Walloons attending.

 

8 hours ago, Tomangoes said:

Isn't POIROT country where Marvin Gaye eloped to for a while?

The trappist beer is quality, the chocolate superb...had a few good bols nights in Antwerp.

Great minds think alike!

Not sure about that dancing though....keep thi sen to thi sen...none of that holding hands malarkey if you don't mind.

Ed

It is their scene and in that Popcorn context so you have to respect that. Loads of Popcorn has drifted over to the UK, some of todays bigger priced records come from that Belgian scene. 

[Ady Croasdell]

It was actually a very middle class, well-healed scene when I knew it. Check out some of their cars; money was no object if they wanted a record badly. I was involved with the scene from 73-late 70s. They used to come to Cheapo Cheapo record stall in London buying early Okeh and particularly that Leon Haywood Soul Cargo LP. I mainly dealt with a DJ called Nico whose name was Vereycken Frans I think. 
When I went to the States I picked up a lot of records for him from the Latest wants list and sent them to him in bulk. Once he just whacked a load of new £20s into three air mail envelopes and they dropped on my mat with the notes almost hanging out of the envelopes. I even stayed at his home and went to a Popcorn dance he ran with Major Lance appearing live.  

[Keamus]

Sam Fletcher always cited as a Popcorn classic

[Ady Croasdell]

1 minute ago, Keamus said:

Sam Fletcher always cited as a Popcorn classic

Booted by the scene. I found the first bunch that I found in NYC and sold them at nighters (as rare boots) when it was first played here 

[Keamus]

What year are we talking Ady for the SF boots?

[Ady Croasdell]

23 minutes ago, Keamus said:

What year are we talking Ady for the SF boots?

Sorry not good on years, whenever it was first big here, though the boots were old stock probably from two or three years earlier 

[Hooker1951]

I was living and working in Germany in 1974 and the Popcorn Scene was buzzing there, I used to frequent all nighters there around Dortmund in the clubs, it was a great scene , I did know a lot of the tunes, but there were some great oddities, I t made for a real cool scene , some of the music I remembered from the early 60,s, I don’t agree it was for a rich set at all the crowds covered all spectrums , including American servicemen , Turks,as well as locals it was a good dancing scene, and a great night out. Popcorn is great corner stone of Soul Music and should be given the praise it deserves

ML

[Windlesoul]

Anybody know if the early Popcorn scene's been documented (fully)? There's a book in there for sure. And those images in the clip are just superb. There is a short documentary style video also somewhere.

I see what Ady says about his experience of it being less of a working class scene than NS, I also get it from other comments in other areas it was pretty mixed. Thanks for sharing Chris, is Gilbert Govaert still around?

Edited December 12, 2021 by Windlesoul

[Chris L]

2 hours ago, Ady Croasdell said:

It was actually a very middle class, well-healed scene when I knew it. Check out some of their cars; money was no object if they wanted a record badly. I was involved with the scene from 73-late 70s. They used to come to Cheapo Cheapo record stall in London buying early Okeh and particularly that Leon Haywood Soul Cargo LP. I mainly dealt with a DJ called Nico whose name was Vereycken Frans I think. 
When I went to the States I picked up a lot of records for him from the Latest wants list and sent them to him in bulk. Once he just whacked a load of new £20s into three air mail envelopes and they dropped on my mat with the notes almost hanging out of the envelopes. I even stayed at his home and went to a Popcorn dance he ran with Major Lance appearing live.  

Gilbert Govaert brought Major Lance a few times to Belgium, also Billy Butler & Otis Leavill.

 

1 hour ago, Windlesoul said:

Anybody know if the early Popcorn scene's been documented (fully)? There's a book in there for sure. And those images in the clip are just superb. There is a short documentary style video also somewhere.

I see what Ady says about his experience of it being less of a working class scene than NS, I also get it from other comments in other areas it was pretty mixed. Thanks for sharing Chris, is Gilbert Govaert still around?

Unfortunately Gilbert died this summer, I miss him dearly.

[Julianb]

16 hours ago, Geeselad said:

Thanks for sharing, great clip, that looks awfully like sousann at 2.52

That is definitely Simon Soussan

[Geeselad]

Was soussan involved in popcorn then?  

[Chris L]

4 hours ago, Keamus said:

Sam Fletcher always cited as a Popcorn classic

Very much Gilbert Govaert's 'find' they also play a female version.

 

[Keamus]

Never heard the female vocal. Any good?

[Chris L]

38 minutes ago, Keamus said:

Never heard the female vocal. Any good?

Couldn't really comment I don't really like the Sam Fletcher version, I would suspect it's a made to measure, they also play the instrumental too.

[Amsterdam Russ]

22 hours ago, Chris L said:

Very much Gilbert Govaert's 'find' they also play a female version.

I recall hearing a female version being played on a stall at the Utrecht Record Fair maybe seven or eight years ago. It sounded brilliant at the time, but in light of the "Cindy Field - Ends of the Earth" debacle, I seriously doubt the authenticity of the track.

[Brav]

3 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

I recall hearing a female version being played on a stall at the Utrecht Record Fair maybe seven or eight years ago. It sounded brilliant at the time, but in light of the "Cindy Field - Ends of the Earth" debacle, I seriously doubt the authenticity of the track.

 

[Tomangoes]

9 minutes ago, Brav said:

 

Maybe your not "supposed" to like it....

But its very likeable!

New to me.

Ed

[Keamus]

The orchestra is better than the singer. Not bad though

[Chris L]

3 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

I recall hearing a female version being played on a stall at the Utrecht Record Fair maybe seven or eight years ago. It sounded brilliant at the time, but in light of the "Cindy Field - Ends of the Earth" debacle, I seriously doubt the authenticity of the track.

I'm sure you're right, they're not so bothered here about booting stuff. 

[Amsterdam Russ]

2 hours ago, Brav said:

 

No, that wasn't it - but I also like it!

[Rick Cooper]

I remember when I worked at Global a couple of DJs/ collectors from Belgian would come over and spend all day searching through all the mixed un-listed stock playing the records on a portable player. The probable years would be around 72 to 76. At first the records they bought were fairly obvious early to mid sixties soul such as the ones playing on the clip, however in later years I couldn't work out why they were buying more M-O-R , Jazz , pop crooners and strange instrumentals. This must be what Chris referred to as the deviation from the early origins.

This is a page from a wants list showing some of the titles from around 75-76. The figure on the left is the price he would pay, note Kit Kat 711 at £150.

Records were frequently bootlegged so Luc Heymans would tell me not to look for these records as they were not worth much, if anything. This letter from 77 mentions the Dick Baker title, previously the most valuable record on the scene. It's on YouTube for anyone curious enough to suffer ( no, it's not that bad really, no worse than some NS records)

 They also wanted reggae records 

Tracks were played from LP and EPs. Here some weird stuff creeps in. Les Baxter, Floyd Crammer, Henry Mancini and Xavier Cugat must have had the right beat but miles away from Major Lance.

There were quite a few similarities with the UK Northern scene but I thought the clubs were open during daylight and early evenings with no alcohol or other substances, maybe I'm wrong here. The photos outside the club in the video all seem to be during the day.

belgian wants list.pdf

[Hooker1951]

49 minutes ago, Rick Cooper said:

I remember when I worked at Global a couple of DJs/ collectors from Belgian would come over and spend all day searching through all the mixed un-listed stock playing the records on a portable player. The probable years would be around 72 to 76. At first the records they bought were fairly obvious early to mid sixties soul such as the ones playing on the clip, however in later years I couldn't work out why they were buying more M-O-R , Jazz , pop crooners and strange instrumentals. This must be what Chris referred to as the deviation from the early origins.

This is a page from a wants list showing some of the titles from around 75-76. The figure on the left is the price he would pay, note Kit Kat 711 at £150.

Records were frequently bootlegged so Luc Heymans would tell me not to look for these records as they were not worth much, if anything. This letter from 77 mentions the Dick Baker title, previously the most valuable record on the scene. It's on YouTube for anyone curious enough to suffer ( no, it's not that bad really, no worse than some NS records)

 They also wanted reggae records 

Tracks were played from LP and EPs. Here some weird stuff creeps in. Les Baxter, Floyd Crammer, Henry Mancini and Xavier Cugat must have had the right beat but miles away from Major Lance.

There were quite a few similarities with the UK Northern scene but I thought the clubs were open during daylight and early evenings with no alcohol or other substances, maybe I'm wrong here. The photos outside the club in the video all seem to be during the day.

belgian wants list.pdf 736.46 kB · 2 downloads

 

[Hooker1951]

Just now, Hooker1951 said:

 

Hi Rick Yes there was definitely substances on the Popcorn scene in Germany mostly uppers of some sort or other and alcohol served all night but nobody seemed to get into drunken states, there was an element of style with it and you are right about the Reggae it was mid 1960,s with a soulful sound to it running parallel with the soul sounds of the USA  60,s always a good beat, better reggae than what came later. One venue I visited a few times had a full cinema screen showing science fiction films no sound of course it added to the oddity of the night , in fact it was probably a small cinema converted to a club. 
Of course I didn’t know it was called popcorn , to me it was a different style on Soul Music

king Regards

Mick Lyons

[Ady Croasdell]

Rick has it exactly as I remember it; Claus Ogerman was big later on! Primarily a dance scene, the beat mattered more than the soul, a little like the pop side of NS. Maybe there were two sides to the scene as my guys didn’t do all nighters, I think the main events were Sunday all dayers 

[Benji]

On 12/12/2021 at 01:14, Tomangoes said:

 

Really?

Quote:

Ostend, the Belgian town where Marvin Gaye cleaned up, is the creative birthplace of Sexual Healing

When Motown legend Marvin Gaye moved to Ostend in 1981, he was washed up and in debt, and dealing with a serious drug addiction problem

He wrote Sexual Healing during his time there. To honour him, Ostend set up a self-guided Marvin Gaye tour, and has plans for a soul festival.

Ed

 

Of course you're right. I don't recall I've been wrong that many times in one thread before.

On 12/12/2021 at 08:49, Chris L said:

No, nothing to do with that, it started really in Oostende when Gilbert Govaert (a really Flemish name   ) and his mate began an all-niter. It was for quite a time only happening in Flanders, it did spread to the rest of the country later. The Italians who live in Belgium are not ex-pats but immigrant workers who worked either in the steel plants or usually down the coal mines in Limburg. At all the Popcorn revivals that happen here are still mostly Flemish but you will see some Walloons attending.

 

It is their scene and in that Popcorn context so you have to respect that. Loads of Popcorn has drifted over to the UK, some of todays bigger priced records come from that Belgian scene. 

Yes, immigrant workers. That's what I meant. Mind, english isn't my first language.

But it still puzzles me how that specific couple dance style came about. I just can't believe anyone was dancing like that in the night clubs of the late 60s.

[Benji]

On 12/12/2021 at 10:28, Hooker1951 said:

I was living and working in Germany in 1974 and the Popcorn Scene was buzzing there, I used to frequent all nighters there around Dortmund in the clubs, it was a great scene , I did know a lot of the tunes, but there were some great oddities, I t made for a real cool scene , some of the music I remembered from the early 60,s, I don’t agree it was for a rich set at all the crowds covered all spectrums , including American servicemen , Turks,as well as locals it was a good dancing scene, and a great night out. Popcorn is great corner stone of Soul Music and should be given the praise it deserves

ML

Can you share more details about the german Popcorn scene in the early 70s? Your post is the first time I read about any Popcorn style night clubs in germany back then. Especially Dortmund which is at least 150 km from the belgian border.

Also you mention american servicemen. You're sure they weren't british? Dortmund was british occupation zone after WWII. Any american baracks were hundreds of kilometers away from Dortmund.

Also you mention people taking uppers. Another news that surprised me. Never heard of people using gear in german night life in the early 70s. No need for that. They served alcohol 24h.

I'm not saying what you said is not correct! It's just that it's not like what I've been told or heard or read. I'd like to stand corrected in this matter.

[Hooker1951]

Hi Benji
As I Stated in my post I worked and lived in Germany nearly all of 1974, there was a British occupation Zone there , we actually used the YMC A there for breakfast if we were working nearby, I also worked in Bochum ,Essen ,Etc where there was a German Soul Scene as such , as I stated it wasn’t popcorn to me, it was Soul music, 60,s Reggae, early And mid 60,sAmerican  music which wasn’t prevalent in the UK, As for Americans there I know Americans been there enough , there were bags of Americans at the time living around the area some  might have decided to stay and raise family there, I know 3 of the gang I worked with there did that and are still there to this day, All I can tell you is it was a pretty vibrant and cool scene, as regards the drugs, I do know if some one has been using uppers , I was a security boss for 40 years plus and I also do know my music I’ve  been into Soul since 1964, Germany as always had drugs there was a scene pre war and after the war during occupation the Americans brought Bennies into the scene there but the Germans already had Peratin there own met amphetamine , the night life in Germany was well advanced and streets ahead in The 60,s and 70,s with all nighters and such, as regards Belgium being 150 miles away that’s no distance people over here travel sometimes over 200miles to visit a venue, Besides the German punters there was always a good percentage of foreigners ie, Turkish  in the nighter venues, Where this nonsense comes there was no drugs in Germany at the time and Popcorn was all dayers is fantasy island , Germany as always had one of the best all night time economies in the world even to this day. Sorry if this spoils what you thought about the Popcorn scene , Sometimes it’s hard to pigeon hole music it has a way of spreading and causing confusion .

keep Safe

Mick Lyons

 

[Chris L]

On 15/12/2021 at 22:53, Benji said:

Can you share more details about the german Popcorn scene in the early 70s? Your post is the first time I read about any Popcorn style night clubs in germany back then. Especially Dortmund which is at least 150 km from the belgian border.

Also you mention american servicemen. You're sure they weren't british? Dortmund was british occupation zone after WWII. Any american baracks were hundreds of kilometers away from Dortmund.

Also you mention people taking uppers. Another news that surprised me. Never heard of people using gear in german night life in the early 70s. No need for that. They served alcohol 24h.

I'm not saying what you said is not correct! It's just that it's not like what I've been told or heard or read. I'd like to stand corrected in this matter.

There was no Popcorn scene in Germany in the 1970s, it was only in Flanders it did spread very slowly and thinly into Wallonia, Northern France & Southern Netherlands later but in a tiny way. It is/was the best kept musical secret for years.

On 15/12/2021 at 22:53, Benji said:

Can you share more details about the german Popcorn scene in the early 70s? Your post is the first time I read about any Popcorn style night clubs in germany back then. Especially Dortmund which is at least 150 km from the belgian border.

Also you mention american servicemen. You're sure they weren't british? Dortmund was british occupation zone after WWII. Any american baracks were hundreds of kilometers away from Dortmund.

Also you mention people taking uppers. Another news that surprised me. Never heard of people using gear in german night life in the early 70s. No need for that. They served alcohol 24h.

I'm not saying what you said is not correct! It's just that it's not like what I've been told or heard or read. I'd like to stand corrected in this matter.

BTW they didn't do gear but usually got drunk then drink themselves sober, many a car crash on the way home.

 

[Hooker1951]

Hi Chris

They did do gear ,where there are licensed clubs open 24 hours there certainly would be gear to follow and Germany was no exception, In fact there was much more drugs available and being used in the cities I worked in Germany than the UK ,It was a very cosmopolitan scene in the night clubs with all kinds of music being played, I prefer Soul so myself and friends looked for these kind of places, I love good popcorn as well as soul, and unknown American oddities, it wasn’t called popcorn then it was music that we loved , we only got Sundays off so we used to look for all night clubs to suit our taste, Just because some people on here weren’t there doesn’t mean it didn’t exist, Trust me it did, I don’t make things up I don’t need to . One club I used to frequent was in the basement of a french martial art Savate club where most of the members who practised there were also into Soul, I’ve heard what is termed Popcorn today and believe me it was being played there, And to some of the Boffins of Ballihoo on here who say it was just all dayers , I say Cobblers you weren’t there so how do you know, Some who were too young don’t believe  everything you are told, be flexible accept that things might have been different than you thought. Just another point this was not a young crowd age range 21 too 45 very mature in their behaviour, Some of the environments were pretty intense and there was no room for your usual clown behaviour .

Stay Safe

Mick Lyons

[Ady Croasdell]

As I said I saw Major Lance at a Popcorn all dayer in Belgium mid 70s 

[Hooker1951]

3 minutes ago, Ady Croasdell said:

As I said I saw Major Lance at a Popcorn all dayer in Belgium mid 70s 

And so what? He played more all nighters than all dayers  I’m sure, to say that popcorn was only played in the day time at clubs is ridiculous , have you ever lived in Europe for a large amount of time and visited many cities and looked at the night life , lived it, danced and felt the atmosphere, it’s a lot different to collecting records and knowing labels, I’ve been there and done it

ML

[Ady Croasdell]

22 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

And so what? He played more all nighters than all dayers  I’m sure, to say that popcorn was only played in the day time at clubs is ridiculous , have you ever lived in Europe for a large amount of time and visited many cities and looked at the night life , lived it, danced and felt the atmosphere, it’s a lot different to collecting records and knowing labels, I’ve been there and done it

ML

I never said that Popcorn was only played in the day time at clubs. I said “Maybe there were two sides to the scene as my guys didn’t do all nighters, I think the main events were Sunday all dayers” meaning their events. This was in Belgium not Germany so the scenes were probably different 

[Tomangoes]

Well just to throw a spanner in the works...

In 1999 I embarked on a joint venture with some Dutch folks about my age...

Eventually we got to know each other a little better and talked about music. Good job they spoke eengleesh.

As I'm playing "stuff" they knew it! Please operator, as an example, but never heard of norvun..

So, yes, I guess "our music" was shared widely across Europe.

The beauty is, we probably all thought it was unique to us....in the 70s etc.

Ed

[Hooker1951]

I rest my case with the posts I’ve already sent, quite obviously there were parallel Soul scenes evolving in Europe the same time as in the UK. Considering there were literally millions of American servicemen and personnel doing service time in Germany and parts of Europe from 1945 especially in Germany it’s not surprising they brought their preferred music with them especially in the 50,s and 60 ,s being RnB and Soul, they had their own clubs on their bases playing it and it would not have took long for it to spread to the civilian and local clubs,

Mck L

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 12/12/2021 at 00:02, Benji said:

Marvin was in the Netherlands, not Belgium.

 

[Blackpoolsoul]

17 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

I rest my case with the posts I’ve already sent, quite obviously there were parallel Soul scenes evolving in Europe the same time as in the UK. Considering there were literally millions of American servicemen and personnel doing service time in Germany and parts of Europe from 1945 especially in Germany it’s not surprising they brought their preferred music with them especially in the 50,s and 60 ,s being RnB and Soul, they had their own clubs on their bases playing it and it would not have took long for it to spread to the civilian and local clubs,

Mck L

This has probably been covered before (link) and what an interesting thread

"When it was released on Jazzman Records in 2016, Follow Me to the Popcorn: The Untold History of the Belgium Popcorn Scene was one of the few compilations to shine a light on the underground soul parties that were all the rage in the country during the 1970s. Unlike its U.K. counterpart Northern Soul, little has been written about the Belgium Popcorn scene. But for a growing number of record collectors and DJs, the sounds of “Popcorn” provide an ongoing source of inspiration. So what wasBelgium Popcorn, and why is it only now beginning to get the appreciation it deserves?"

https://daily.bandcamp.com/features/belgium-popcorn-guide

Edited December 18, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Blackpoolsoul]

13 hours ago, Ady Croasdell said:

I never said that Popcorn was only played in the day time at clubs. I said “Maybe there were two sides to the scene as my guys didn’t do all nighters, I think the main events were Sunday all dayers” meaning their events. This was in Belgium not Germany so the scenes were probably different 

France as well

http://doowoop1962.free.fr/Popcorn/accueil.htm