Detroit produced 45's on non-Detroit labels !

[The Yank]

On 20/11/2021 at 15:22, Wilxy said:

 

Can anyone elaborate on the following artist(e) output with regard to specifically Detroit recordings......

Dells Cadet output with writing by Hestor/Wylie  

Thanks

wilxy

       The back covers of  "The Mighty, Mighty Dells" and the "The Dells versus the Dramatics" both have the same credits- Recording Studios- United Sound Systems Detroit, Michigan

        and Muscle Shoals Sound  Studios, Alabama. 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by The Yank

[The Yank]

On 20/11/2021 at 15:22, Wilxy said:

 

Can anyone elaborate on the following artist(e) output with regard to specifically Detroit recordings......

Sidney Barnes (not under a pseudonym)

 

I would think both of Sidney Barnes Blue Cat 45's were done in New York City. One was produced by Jeff Barry and the other by Leiber and Stoller. I don't think any of them would have gone to Detroit or have been able to get studio time there.

     Around this time, Red Bird/ Blue Cat showed they were definitely influenced by Detroit. Listen to "I'll Still Love You" by Jeff Barry, the Shangri-Las' "Right Now, Not Later" or the Boquets' "Welcome To My Heart". 

[Robbk]

On 22/11/2021 at 10:54, The Yank said:

I would think both of Sidney Barnes Blue Cat 45's were done in New York City. One was produced by Jeff Barry and the other by Leiber and Stoller. I don't think any of them would have gone to Detroit or have been able to get studio time there.

     Around this time, Red Bird/ Blue Cat showed they were definitely influenced by Detroit. Listen to "I'll Still Love You" by Jeff Barry, the Shangri-Las' "Right Now, Not Later" or the Boquets' "Welcome To My Heart". 

It's no surprise that The Bouquets'  "Welcome To My Heart" sounds like Detroit. That song was produced, written and arranged by ex-Motowner, Robert Bateman, in his Motownlike style he created in New York using what he learned at Motown about songwriting, producing and arranging, and gathering together a great band, led by pianist, Richard "T", (who had been Jobete Music New York's house band (best, by far in creating The Motown Sound, outside Detroit.  I have no doubt that some or most of Richard "T"'s band played on that recording, probably as well as Sidney Barnes' Blue Cat recordings, and Roddy Joy's Robert Bateman productions on Red Bird.

[The Yank]

One more for the list which I don't think was mentioned before. In the early 70's, Warner Brothers sent Dionne Warwicke to Detroit to record her "Just Being Myself" album - 

 

[Robbk]

By The HDH crew at Invictus/GoldWax.  I never knew about that one!

[The Yank]

19 minutes ago, Robbk said:

By The HDH crew at Invictus/GoldWax.  I never knew about that one!

      Consider it your Birthday present. Happy Birthday Robbk !

[Robbk]

12 hours ago, The Yank said:

      Consider it your Birthday present. Happy Birthday Robbk !

Thanks Dave!  You have a good next year, too, and stay safe!

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 13/11/2021 at 08:06, Robbk said:

The Buddah cuts by J.J. Barnes were just old Detroit productions leased by Don Davis to that New York label.  It wasn't a New York record company sending its already-signed singer to Detroit to record better material to boost his sales.  The Monitors and Henry Lumpkin are New York productions by ex-Motowner, Robert Bateman, deliberately producing his Motownlike New York recordings using Richard "T"'s band to simulate The Motown Sound.  Buddah did NOT send The Monitors or Lumpkin to Detroit to boost their careers.  Luther Ingram was completely produced by Bateman in New York, using Richard T's band.  I sincerely doubt that Junior Parker-These Kind of Blues was recorded in Detroit, based on the musicians' play.  And I doubt it was produced by Joe Hunter in Houston.

Johnny Burke I thought was a Chicago artist, and Joanne was a Chicago label.  The writers, Andre or Ric Williams, Carl Tarlton, Johnny Burke (and Dixon(perhaps Eugene(Gene Chandler?)-all Chicago.  During the late '60s ALL of Andre Williams labels were located back in his hometown of Chicago.  But, as for Duo, Mercury(Blue Rock), Zodiac, and his work with other Chicago labels,at that time, he DID take some of his artists to Detroit to record, so I can't rule it out.  But the instrumentals on The Johnny Burke cuts don't really sound like Detroit musicians, or Detroit studio acoustics, or Detroit mixers.  The ZTSC doesn't mean it was pressed for a Detroit label, as Chicago indie labels were pressed along with Detroit labels at Columbia Terre Haute, Indiana plant.  And just because the song was published by Ed Wingate's Myto Music doesn't mean it was recorded in Detroit.  It's just a song that was published by Golden World/Ric Tic's publisher, probably a few years before, (maybe written by Williams, himself, and he traded the shared publishing rights and royalties to those 3 other people, as a way to pay them money he owed them, that he couldn't pay in cash, as he was broke at that time).  In any case, I really doubt that recording was made in Detroit.

Johnny Daye looks a lot more New York than Detroit, being that Jomada was Johnny Nash's label, and he lived in and operated out of New York.  And the flip side band was a New York band and arranger, and the song was written by Johnny's wife, Margaret.  And, I don't recognise Johnny Daye as a Detroit artist.  However, with Detroit's Just Music, from Just Productions as the publisher on the A side, and Detroiter, Willie Kendrick, and semi-Detroiter James Bryant, and his brother, Frank, who also lived in Chicago, but recorded sometimes in Detroit, and Johnny Terry (the Detroit/NY dealmaker) all involved, in addition to my having for many years heard that this cut was recorded in Detroit, I have to admit that it is certainly possible that Johnny Nash brought Daye to Detroit to get this recorded.  The music and acoustics DO sound like it may well have been recorded in Detroit.  But why only one side?  I can't be certain, because I've never seen any proof.  But, if I had a gun to my head, I'd vote for this being a Detroit recording.  So, it meets the criteria.

Laura Lee - late Disco - reminds me of a few of our own Airwave records!   Laura was a Detroit-based artist.  This was produced by Detroit's Don Davis.  Fantasy was a California label.  I really doubt that this was a case of Fantasy signing Laura Lee because her career was hot, and then they just decided to send her back to her home town of Detroit to record.  It looks suspiciously, a lot more like Don Davis produced this recording in Detroit, on Detroit singer, Laura Lee, and then got a production/lease/distribution deal for her with Fantasy to get it distributed nationally, because he was, at that time, an independent producer, without his own record company with capability of nationwide record distribution.  So, this production DOESN'T meet the thread's criteria.  However, The Dells' version was produced by Carl Davis and Sonny Sanders.  What makes you think they sent The Dells to Detroit to record this?  To get The ex-Funk Brothers (who didn't move to L.A. to record it???  By the mid '70s how could anyone tell it was recorded in Detroit?  I have heard that Chess sent The Dells to Detroit a few times to record.  But I doubt that 20th Century Fox did this late (1980?)

Betty Lavette on Calla Records - doesn't sound ANYTHING like a song recorded in Detroit.  The arranger, Ernie Wilkes, worked out of New York.  Producer, Don Gardner, worked out of New York, other producer and label owner, Nate McCalla, worked out of NY.  The A-side song was written by Detroiters, Bob Hamilton and Don Juan Mancha, and published by Golden World's Myrto Music.  This was clearly, simply a song that Laura had heard when she recorded for Ric Tic, and always wanted to record.  And so, she got her New York company producers to okay her singing it.  They did NOT send her back to her home town of Detroit to record it.

Belita Woods was a Detroit-based singer, who was little known outside Detroit.  I really doubt she would be sought out and signed by a national label outside Detroit, and then sent back to her home town to record.  "I Just Love You" is clearly a Detroit production by ex-Motowners, Barrett Strong and Paul Riser, that found a nationally-distributed home with Epic Records on lease, rather than Columbia "discovering" Woods, and deciding it was best to send her back to her home town to record, and take advantage of "The Detroit Sound", which had lost a lot of ground to "The Sound of Philadelphia" by 1973.  It would be a lot more likely that they'd sign her and send her from Detroit to Philadelphia to record.

Tony Clarke - Landslide - I have heard for many years that this was recorded in Detroit, using many of The Funk Brothers.  But, it doesn't sound like that to me.  I doubt that it really was, until I see some proof of that.

The Volcanos - The Laws of Love - I have heard for years that this was recorded in Detroit, using many of the moonlighting Funk Brothers.  Although I've never seen any official confirmation of that, I can believe it is true, because I can hear Mike Terry's baritone sax, James Jamerson's bass, and some other Motown players on it.  Interesting that it was written by The Vibrations' Carl Fisher, and also interesting that it doesn't list the producer or arranger,  like most Arctic records do.  Maybe that's because they didn't do it in-house, and the Detroiters took a little extra cash to not get the production credits?

Ruby Andrews - I've Got A Bone To Pick With You - Definitely a Detroit production by a Detroit producer.  But 1976 is WAYYYY too late for a record company to be sending a singer to Detroit to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound".  This seems a LOT more likely that producer, George McGregor, didn't own a record company at that time, with enough assets and income to distribute press and distribute records nationally.  So, this was him, placing his record in a pressing/distribution deal with a nationally- distributing label.

Bridges/Knight/Eaton-Boo Records, Don Robey's Houston labels, and Charmaines, and Luther Ingram explained on other posts.

Barbara Lewis on Stax's Enterprise Records - clearly wasn't Stax seeking Barbara Lewis out, and then sending her back to her home town to record to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound".  But, it was was rather,  Detroit producer, Ollie McLaughlin, placing his biggest star (also a southeastern Michigan resident) with a different national label to get her records pressed up and distributed nationally, after their deal with Atlantic Records was up, and Atlantic didn't want to renew their previous deal, because her sales were flagging.  Stax was interested, likely because their own older, funky style, was starting to become stale, and they had already had started venturing into The Detroit sound by making a large production deal with McLaughlin's Detroit colleague, Don Davis.  The deal with McLaughlin would dovetail right in with that and make that move stronger.

Sharon Soul on Coral Records - This was strictly a New York operation.  No Detroit recordings here!  Ex-Motowner, now a full-time in New York producer, Robert Bateman, recorded all (New York singer) Sharon's songs in New York City, using Richard "T"'s Band, with the latter as arranger.  Her most Motownlike and Detroity songs were written by Batemasn in his past Motown style.  I can understand why the rumours started that these were recorded in Detroit, especially because Bateman returned to Detroit to record a few sessions for Mary Wells on 2oth Century Fox and Luther Ingram on HIB, and "His Love Is Amazing" is Bateman's most Motown-sounding New York recording.  He really captured The Motown Sound on that one.  But no one has ever proved that Sharon Soul ever recorded in Detroit.

Willie Hatcher on Cotillion Records - Again, this is not Atlantic Records seeking to sign World Class star singer, Willie Hatcher, and then graciously allowing him to return to his home city of Detroit to record, because they wanted to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound".  But, rather, it was another of those local producers trying to get a national pressing and distribution deal with a big company.  Hatcher came along with a production/lease deal with Detroit producer, Don Davis, right after his deal with Stax (who was starting to have big cash flow deficits) pulled out of their deal with him, OR he pulled out from them  because he foresaw problems in the future.  In any case, Cotillion had to take Hatcher if they wanted to get Davis' star, Darrell Banks.  Unfortunately, nobody expected that Banks would soon after be deceased after only one Cotillion 45).

 

 

 

Exactly!

Strange coincidence Rob, I asked Ruby about I've Got A Bone To Pick With You and this was her response

"George was a nightmare"

"Actually we did this at Don Davis United Sound Suite Studios in Detroit, the engineer, myself and Ron Dunbar did this, George was on the floor of the studio dead drunk"

[Wheelsville1]

2 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Strange coincidence Rob, I asked Ruby about I've Got A Bone To Pick With You and this was her response

"George was a nightmare"

"Actually we did this at Don Davis United Sound Suite Studios in Detroit, the engineer, myself and Ron Dunbar did this, George was on the floor of the studio dead drunk"

Thats really sad to hear that Geoge was in that state as over the years his contribution to the Detroit music industry was amazing.

[The Yank]

One more for the list- This unissued song from 1968 was produced by Don Davis-

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by The Yank

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, The Yank said:

One more for the list- This unissued song from 1968 was produced by Don Davis-

 

Don Davis was producing for his Groove City records then.  Maybe there were problems for Patti to get out of her current label contract then, so Davis couldn't release it on Groove City, and/or he couldn't get a label/distribution deal with a major label, to release it?  Who was Patti recording with at that time?

[The Yank]

Patti was still with Atlantic at the time of this 45- the flip side of this new release on 45  was made in Chicago and most likely produced by Curtis Mayfield. For more info, there's a topic in the All About The Soul section from November of this year titled "Soul 4 Real New Release- Patti Labelle and the Bluebelles". 

Edited December 24, 2021 by The Yank

[Wilxy]

Got myself a copy from Soul Source recently.......Splendid 45 !

[Premium Stuff]

On 20/11/2021 at 23:28, Robbk said:

Regarding Fred Hughes' "Don't Bring Me Down".......  Hughes' producer with VJ Records was Chicago's Richard Parker, who ran VJ's L.A. production office, and was its main producer.  He recorded some of Hughes' sessions in L.A., and some in Chicago.  Parker had a Detroit connection in the mid 1960s, when he produced and recorded for Golden World/Ric Tic, I believe, as a part-time free-lance producer, rather than full time, while he still resided primarily in Chicago, but also, part-time in L.A.  I always thought that "Don't Bring Me Down was recorded in Chicago, with Mike Terry travelling there, rather than Parker bring Hughes to Terry, in Detroit.  However, Terry, in addition to periodically going to Chicago to record for Jo Armstead's and a few other Chicago labels, also worked heavily in Golden World Studios, on Ric Tic and Golden World sessions.  Still, I think the odds are a lot greater that Parker brought Terry to Chicago, perhaps along with a few Motown Funk Brothers moonlighting musicians, to record "Don't Bring Me Down" and a few other cuts.  I doubt that Terry flew to L.A. to record that for VJ.  But, Chicago was a relatively short auto drive (a few hours), which Terry and moonlighting Funk Brothers and other Detroiters, like Fred Bridges, The Brothers of soul, Mike Hanks, Ollie McLaughlin, The Four Hollidays, The Funk Brothers/Andantes/other Motown Musicians, Andre Williams, and many others often made.

Do you have documentation that that song was recorded in Detroit?

I have Fred Hughes - "Don't Let Me Down" on a Golden World studio acetate.

[Roburt]

A number of guys in the music biz moved around a lot; so a small portion of their work would have taken place in Detroit. I'm thinking of the likes of Sidney Barnes & Gene Dozier but there are others that either started out in Detroit & then moved on OR who passed through Detroit, making a short stop there.

I've always been fascinated by Hamilton Bohannon, who for the 2nd half of the 60's led the Motown touring band and developed long lasting friendships with the likes of Carolyn Crawford. Although he was born in Georgia, he had moved to Detroit in the early 60's. He then hooked up with Stevie Wonder & via Stevie with Motown. When Choker Campbell quit the Motown team, Hamilton took his place as band leader. Motown left him behind in Detroit, so he took his band elsewhere -- to Chicago based Dakar and started having big hits with them.

Was he ever allowed to record anything in his own right or arrange any Hitsville studio sessions at Motown; would seem strange if he didn't. I could also never work out if he cut any of his 70's tracks in Detroit. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Roburt

[Wilxy]

15 hours ago, Premium Stuff said:

I have Fred Hughes - "Don't Let Me Down" on a Golden World studio acetate.

Hiya Richard,  Awesome ....I don't suppose you could upload a pic of it by any chance could you?

[Wheelsville1]

6 minutes ago, Wilxy said:

Hiya Richard,  Awesome ....I don't suppose you could upload a pic of it by any chance could you?

I second that.

[Agentsmith]

On 22/11/2021 at 18:54, The Yank said:

I would think both of Sidney Barnes Blue Cat 45's were done in New York City. One was produced by Jeff Barry and the other by Leiber and Stoller. I don't think any of them would have gone to Detroit or have been able to get studio time there.

     Around this time, Red Bird/ Blue Cat showed they were definitely influenced by Detroit. Listen to "I'll Still Love You" by Jeff Barry, the Shangri-Las' "Right Now, Not Later" or the Boquets' "Welcome To My Heart". 

Roddie Joy - " If There's Anything Else You Want " though, it does actually sound like it was cut in Detroit.

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, Agentsmith said:

Roddie Joy - " If There's Anything Else You Want " though, it does actually sound like it was cut in Detroit.

To me, The Roddie Joy also sounds like Richard Tee's (NY) band, rather than Motown, or a Wingate Funk Bros, or Davis-Taylor Solid Hitbound recording. It's a bit tinnier, although it's one of Bateman/Tee's better Detroit style copies.

[Premium Stuff]

On 27/11/2023 at 13:10, Wilxy said:

Hiya Richard,  Awesome ....I don't suppose you could upload a pic of it by any chance could you?

 

On 27/11/2023 at 13:17, Wheelsville1 said:

I second that.

Here's a pic I took a few years ago - just a plain GW label on it without scribbles.

Having compared, it sounds like a slightly different mix to the Vee-Jay presses - more direct and clearer than the 45s - a bit more punchy!

R

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Premium Stuff

[Wilxy]

2 hours ago, Premium Stuff said:

 

Here's a pic I took a few years ago - just a plain GW label on it without scribbles.

Having compared, it sounds like a slightly different mix to the Vee-Jay presses - more direct and clearer than the 45s - a bit more punchy!

R

 

 

Superb, thanks for that Richard......

[Mal C]

Has somebody mentioned Diane Lewis - I Thank You Kindly / Wand? or would that come under Detroit producers, or Detroit productions and recordings of Detroit artists that are leased to other labels?

Produced by Herman Griffin, Says H&A Productions so I guess so...?

[Robbk]

45 minutes ago, Mal C said:

Has somebody mentioned Diane Lewis - I Thank You Kindly / Wand? or would that come under Detroit producers, or Detroit productions and recordings of Detroit artists that are leased to other labels?

Produced by Herman Griffin, Says H&A Productions so I guess so...?

Those Herman Griffin and Ed Wingate partnership productions that were issued by Wand and Columbia/Date were, indeed produced and recorded in Detroit.  Diane Lewis was certainly a Detroit artist.  But Herman's ladyfriend (were they ever married) Gigi (lead of The Charmaines) was from Cincinnati.  But, most of his recordings of her were done in Detroit or Toledo.  But, I believe that all the Columbia recordings were made in Detroit.  So, we should consider them Detroit productions.

 

 

[Premium Stuff]

On 20/11/2021 at 23:28, Robbk said:

Regarding Fred Hughes' "Don't Bring Me Down".......  Hughes' producer with VJ Records was Chicago's Richard Parker, who ran VJ's L.A. production office, and was its main producer.  He recorded some of Hughes' sessions in L.A., and some in Chicago.  Parker had a Detroit connection in the mid 1960s, when he produced and recorded for Golden World/Ric Tic, I believe, as a part-time free-lance producer, rather than full time, while he still resided primarily in Chicago, but also, part-time in L.A.  I always thought that "Don't Bring Me Down was recorded in Chicago, with Mike Terry travelling there, rather than Parker bring Hughes to Terry, in Detroit.  However, Terry, in addition to periodically going to Chicago to record for Jo Armstead's and a few other Chicago labels, also worked heavily in Golden World Studios, on Ric Tic and Golden World sessions.  Still, I think the odds are a lot greater that Parker brought Terry to Chicago, perhaps along with a few Motown Funk Brothers moonlighting musicians, to record "Don't Bring Me Down" and a few other cuts.  I doubt that Terry flew to L.A. to record that for VJ.  But, Chicago was a relatively short auto drive (a few hours), which Terry and moonlighting Funk Brothers and other Detroiters, like Fred Bridges, The Brothers of soul, Mike Hanks, Ollie McLaughlin, The Four Hollidays, The Funk Brothers/Andantes/other Motown Musicians, Andre Williams, and many others often made.

Do you have documentation that that song was recorded in Detroit?

 

On 26/11/2023 at 21:30, Premium Stuff said:

I have Fred Hughes - "Don't Let Me Down" on a Golden World studio acetate.

 

On 28/11/2023 at 17:59, Premium Stuff said:

Here's a pic I took a few years ago - just a plain GW label on it without scribbles.

Having compared, it sounds like a slightly different mix to the Vee-Jay presses - more direct and clearer than the 45s - a bit more punchy!

R

RobbK - hope all's well with you.

Just wondered if my reply answered your question re documentation it was recorded in Detroit. It was your original query about evidence that encouraged me to say I had this on GW acetate.

Cheers - R

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, Premium Stuff said:

 

 

RobbK - hope all's well with you.

Just wondered if my reply answered your question re documentation it was recorded in Detroit. It was your original query about evidence that encouraged me to say I had this on GW acetate.

Cheers - R

 

1 hour ago, Premium Stuff said:

 

 

RobbK - hope all's well with you.

Just wondered if my reply answered your question re documentation it was recorded in Detroit. It was your original query about evidence that encouraged me to say I had this on GW acetate.

Cheers - R

Your legitimate Golden World Studio acetate or vinyl in-house demo record indicates that Parker either took Hughes to Detroit to have Mike Terry record him, and arrange the songs, and also conduct the background track sessions, OR, tha Parker conducted Hughes' vocals sessions in Chicago or L.A., and had Terry produce the instrumentals sessions using Detroit (mainly ex- and then-current Motown musicians (moonlighting).

Lots of Motown records had their recording session split between 2 cities, with vocals in one and instrumentals and background vocals in the other, or vocals and instrumentals in the city of the artists record company, OR with everything but a few extra instruments tracks and final mixing in the other city, or everything except final mixing in the 2nd city's recording studios.  I remember split sessions by Joe Hunter for Duke Records in both Houston and Detroit, and by Hunter in Detroit for Golden World, and by Bert Keyes for GW in New York.  As the music sounds like Detroit's musicians, he recorded, at least the instrumentals there, and also did the final mixing there.  have you heard that Fred Hughes' vocals were recorded there?  Unless we see some documentation or statement by people that were there at the time, I'd still guess Parker ran the vocal sessions in Chicago or L.A.

[Premium Stuff]

10 hours ago, Robbk said:

 

Your legitimate Golden World Studio acetate or vinyl in-house demo record indicates that Parker either took Hughes to Detroit to have Mike Terry record him, and arrange the songs, and also conduct the background track sessions, OR, tha Parker conducted Hughes' vocals sessions in Chicago or L.A., and had Terry produce the instrumentals sessions using Detroit (mainly ex- and then-current Motown musicians (moonlighting).

Lots of Motown records had their recording session split between 2 cities, with vocals in one and instrumentals and background vocals in the other, or vocals and instrumentals in the city of the artists record company, OR with everything but a few extra instruments tracks and final mixing in the other city, or everything except final mixing in the 2nd city's recording studios.  I remember split sessions by Joe Hunter for Duke Records in both Houston and Detroit, and by Hunter in Detroit for Golden World, and by Bert Keyes for GW in New York.  As the music sounds like Detroit's musicians, he recorded, at least the instrumentals there, and also did the final mixing there.  have you heard that Fred Hughes' vocals were recorded there?  Unless we see some documentation or statement by people that were there at the time, I'd still guess Parker ran the vocal sessions in Chicago or L.A.

A simple 'No' would've sufficed Robbk