Detroit produced 45's on non-Detroit labels !

[Robbk]

On 06/11/2021 at 06:35, Wilxy said:

Several of the Bobby Williams tracks were "allegedly" recorded in Detroit, including I've only got myself to blame......

As far as I know, Bobby Williams recorded for Robert West in Detroit (LuPine Records 1962) before recording for Don Robey's labels.  And, I'm sure at least several, if not all of his recordings for Sure Shot were recorded by Joe Hunter in Detroit.

[The Yank]

Rhetta Hughes on the Tetragrammation label should qualify- all tracks were written and produced by Jo Armstead and Mike Terry and sound like the rest of the work they did in Detroit. 

[The Yank]

These three should also make the cut- 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by The Yank

[Robbk]

On 04/11/2021 at 11:40, Wilxy said:

As a "Born Again Detroit" collector (specifically) for the last 20 years anyway, and having read some superb articles by some very well versed Soul Source contributors in relation to the Motor City over the years, I have been intrigued by the information gleaned regarding to "out of town artist(e)s utilising the superb recording facilities in Detroit!

                 I appreciate there are some wonderful books and label related publications, regarding the entire Detroit label repertoire, including a superb label listing compiled by Chalky several years ago on Soul Source, but am both fascinated and eager to learn of the non-Detroit labels and artists that used the likes of  United Sounds/Golden World studios to name but a few!

                 I am aware of the labels such as American Arts, and Big Wheel and the obvious Atlantic, and Volt labels utilised by Ollie McClaughlin and Don Davis, and furthermore the hybrid Pied Piper material released courtesy of RCA, who were also a vehicle for many Detroit artist(e)s, but the anomalies are many.....Mike Terry produced many items on both Chicago and Philadelphia output, like Arctic, and Giant/Okeh, etc. but  an "obvious" anomaly Billy Hambric-I found true love on Drum, written by Don Juan Mancha, that differences of opinion in several publications highlight.......I won't elaborate further at this stage but hopefully open up viewpoints and opinion, and furthermore glean more information to assist my collecting habit!!!

 

 

Why is Big Wheel listed here?  As far as I always thought (knew?) Big Wheel was a Detroit-based label.  As for Don Davis bringing Stax/Volt artists to Detroit to record them, just like Joe Hunter got a production agreement with Don Robey's Houston labels, Don Davis, still operating out of Detroit, got a similar working agreement with Memphis' Stax/Volt.  Some Stax/Volt Memphis-based singers, like Carla Thomas, Johnny Taylor, and William Bell got to sing over tracks recorded by Davis in Detroit, and Detroit artists formerly signed to Davis' Groovesville Records, or Solid Hitbound Productions, like J.J. Barnes, Darrell Banks, Roz Ryan, and The Dramatics were signed to Volt Records, and their mostly Detroit recorded (but sometimes partly Memphis-recorded) cuts were released on Volt Records.  As I stated above, Billy Hambric was a New York-based singer, Detroit's Don Juan Mancha produced for Drum Records in New York, while he was working with Johnny Terry to try to get financing for recording projects and trying to get record pressing/distribution deals for recordings he'd already produced in Detroit.  In addition to getting the deal for his Jack Montgomery(Marvin Jones) record with Flo Greenberg's Scepter/Wand Records, he also got his record by the Honeybees leased to Scepter, and they placed it on their new subsidiary, Garrison Records.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Robbk

[The Yank]

11 minutes ago, Robbk said:

Why is Big Wheel listed here?  As far as I always thought (knew?) Big Wheel was a Detroit-based label.  

 

[Robbk]

35 minutes ago, The Yank said:

Rhetta Hughes on the Tetragrammation label should qualify- all tracks were written and produced by Jo Armstead and Mike Terry and sound like the rest of the work they did in Detroit. 

The Jo Armstead/Mike Terry productions on Giant, Tetragrammaton, Phillips, Blue Rock, and a few other labels are tough to know exactly how production was divided between Chicago and Detroit.  We DO know that some of the singers were Detroit based, and some were Chicago based, and some recorded vocals in both cities for different records, and Mike Terry came to Chicago to record her Chicago artists, and some tracks, sometimes.  The same was true of Mike Hanks working with Chicago's Bob Catron, and Ric Williams working with Mike Terry and Bridges, Knight & Eaton in Detroit.  Okeh Records' Chicago office sent Chicago's Little Foxes to Detroit's Mike Terry to record their Okeh record.  But, It was New York's Okeh office, who had Mike Terry and Bridges, Knight and Eaton record the backing tracks to the Sandra Phillips Okeh release in Detroit.  But, I don't know if they also sent Sandra Phillips to Detroit to record the vocals.  Those may have been recorded in New York.  The same lack of definitive information is true for Okeh's Johnny Robinson cuts.  I think the background tracks  were likely to have been cut in Detroit, but Robinson's vocals may have been cut in CBS' studio in Chicago, or New York.  They liked to use their own studios.  If they just wanted to get "The Detroit Sound" into the record, they were a lot more likely to send a big star on an airplane trip to another city to record the vocals, than they were to send an unknown, like Robinson.  Furthermore 7307 was released quite a bit after Carl Davis left Columbia/Okeh, and the Chicago office became a backwater, with New York taking over most of the Soul Music production left.  So, Mike Terry may have only done the backgrounds recording in Detroit, and Robinson's vocals were made in New York.  I wish I knew if Robinson was based in Chicago, Detroit, or The East Coast.

 

The Chicago-Detroit commute was easy by car, so there was a lot of commuting.  Andre Williams, Jimmy Holland (Four Hollidays/Holidays), Bridges, Knight, Eeaton, Ollie McLaughlin, and many others, used to bounce back and forth regularly (even The Funk Brothers did for awhile).

Edited November 13, 2021 by Robbk

[Wilxy]

22 minutes ago, The Yank said:

These three should also make the cut- 

 

TBH I am aware of the Okeh releases and have the latter pair, but Good Point well made.

[Robbk]

5 minutes ago, The Yank said:

 

I believe that ALL their productions were done completely in Detroit.  I think they were less a New York label than Motown was.  Motown, at least had songwriting and demo records made there.  I'm sure that Big Wheels main financier had a business office in New York, and that address on fifth Avenue may have had the office there.  Or it may have just been a P.O. Box.   But, I wouldn't say that The Falcons, Betty LaVette, or any of their artists were based outside the Detroit/Southeast Michigan/Toledo OH Metro Area.

I think Big Wheel wasn't much more of a New York label than Doc Records was a Rydal Pennsylvania label, because the rich doctor who financed the label had a home there.

[Robbk]

I also have always been curious about Andre Williams' Duo Records.  It was definitely a Chicago-based label, and Williams was, by then, residing more in Chicago than in Detroit (but he still had a flat in The Motor City).  From the sound of several of the recordings, and the fact that Mike Terry arranged many of them, I'd guess that The Profiles and Sheryl Swope records' background tracks were recorded in Detroit, by Terry and Bridges/Knight & Eaton, but the 4 Jo Ann Garret cuts were recorded totally in Chicago.  I have no idea  whether or not The Chicago group, The Profiles, or Sheryl Swope, were sent to Detroit to record their vocals.

[Robbk]

On 04/11/2021 at 11:40, Wilxy said:

As a "Born Again Detroit" collector (specifically) for the last 20 years anyway, and having read some superb articles by some very well versed Soul Source contributors in relation to the Motor City over the years, I have been intrigued by the information gleaned regarding to "out of town artist(e)s utilising the superb recording facilities in Detroit!

                 I appreciate there are some wonderful books and label related publications, regarding the entire Detroit label repertoire, including a superb label listing compiled by Chalky several years ago on Soul Source, but am both fascinated and eager to learn of the non-Detroit labels and artists that used the likes of  United Sounds/Golden World studios to name but a few!

                 I am aware of the labels such as American Arts, and Big Wheel and the obvious Atlantic, and Volt labels utilised by Ollie McLaughlin and Don Davis, and furthermore the hybrid Pied Piper material released courtesy of RCA, who were also a vehicle for many Detroit artist(e)s, but the anomalies are many.....Mike Terry produced many items on both Chicago and Philadelphia output, like Arctic, and Giant/Okeh, etc. but  an "obvious" anomaly Billy Hambric-I found true love on Drum, written by Don Juan Mancha, that differences of opinion in several publications highlight.......I won't elaborate further at this stage but hopefully open up viewpoints and opinion, and furthermore glean more information to assist my collecting habit!!!

 

 

As to Pied Piper's RCA and Kapp production, Jack Ashford and Lorraine Chandler teamed together with Joe Hunter and Mike Terry to get a large production deal with New York's RCA office, similar to the deal Hunter had with Houston's Don Robey.  There was cross-fertilization, having Pied Piper write songs and record most of the background tracks in Detroit, with Pied Piper Detroit-(or Cleveland-based, in the case of The Hesitations) artists recording their vocals mostly in Detroit, and some in New York, produced by RCA's Paul Robinson, and, possibly some RCA non-Detroit artists going to Detroit to record.  But, I'm not sure of which vocals were recorded where.  It's fairly easy to tell by ear, which tracks were recorded by Mike Terry and Joe Hunter in Detroit.  Hunter left the production team before they expanded production to Kapp Records (which, I believe why his name appears on none of The Kapp Pied Piper releases).  There were a few of their RCA releases by RCA artists who I can't place with a Detroit connection, who MAY or may not have been sent by RCA to record their vocals in Detroit, but, I think the odds are greater that just their instrumentals, and, perhaps the background singers' recordings were made in Detroit, and their vocals were recorded in New York at RCA.

[Robbk]

On 05/11/2021 at 01:23, Chalky said:

Most if not all on Chess Records subsidiary Check-Mate.

Check-Mate was Chess' Detroit Subsidiary.  All the artists were Detroiters, recorded in mainly(if not totally) in Detroit.  This is not what Wilxy asked for, which is labels outside Michigan and The Detroit Metro Area, sending their non-Detroit artists to Detroit to record, to have them take advantage of Detroit's great recording facilities and highly-skilled musicians, and great songwriters, arrangers, and producers, to Jazz up their sound, like New York's Brunswick did with Jackie Wilson, sending him to their Chicago studio, but importing many of The Funk Brothers to play the music, and The Andantes to sing the backgrounds (but in reverse).

When The Chess Brothers convinced Billy Davis to fold up Check-Mate, and come to Chess' operations in Chicago, most of those Detroit artists stayed in Detroit.  Only (long-legged)Tony Clarke, and Voice Masters' lead singer, Ty Hunter, came with him to Chess in Chicago, in early 1962.  Hunter returned to Detroit when his contract was up after a year.  I assume that both of them continued living mainly in Detroit, and just came over to Chess to do most of their recording (other than Clarke possibly recording "Landslide", and I think one or two other songs in Detroit (but after listening to it closely, several times, I really don't think it was recorded in Detroit). 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Robbk

[Robbk]

On 04/11/2021 at 11:40, Wilxy said:

As a "Born Again Detroit" collector (specifically) for the last 20 years anyway, and having read some superb articles by some very well versed Soul Source contributors in relation to the Motor City over the years, I have been intrigued by the information gleaned regarding to "out of town artist(e)s utilising the superb recording facilities in Detroit!

                 I appreciate there are some wonderful books and label related publications, regarding the entire Detroit label repertoire, including a superb label listing compiled by Chalky several years ago on Soul Source, but am both fascinated and eager to learn of the non-Detroit labels and artists that used the likes of  United Sounds/Golden World studios to name but a few!

                 I am aware of the labels such as American Arts, and Big Wheel and the obvious Atlantic, and Volt labels utilised by Ollie McLaughlin and Don Davis, and furthermore the hybrid Pied Piper material released courtesy of RCA, who were also a vehicle for many Detroit artist(e)s, but the anomalies are many.....Mike Terry produced many items on both Chicago and Philadelphia output, like Arctic, and Giant/Okeh, etc. but  an "obvious" anomaly Billy Hambric-I found true love on Drum, written by Don Juan Mancha, that differences of opinion in several publications highlight.......I won't elaborate further at this stage but hopefully open up viewpoints and opinion, and furthermore glean more information to assist my collecting habit!!!

 

 

Ollie McLaughlin was a from southeastern Michigan, a small town fairly near Detroit.  So, his record companies were all located inside Detroit, and he generally recorded at United Sound, but, perhaps 25-30 percent of the time from 1960-64, he recorded at Universal in Chicago (mainly because he liked Chicago arranger, Riley Hampton's string  arrangements, and the string orchestra section of session players he used.  (side note: Motown used Hampton for strings from 1959-63) before they used their regular Detroit Symphony Orchestra crew, exclusively, starting in 1964).  Ollie had his singers record in Chicago a fair amount during the early '60s, especially Barbara Lewis and Sharon McMahan.  So, again, this is NOT non-Detroit labels sending their non-Detroit-based singers to Detroit, to record.

Atlantic Records - Most of the Detroit productions appearing on Atlantic and its subsidiary and distributed labels were NOT involved with sending their NON-Detroit-based singers to Detroit to record, or not even hiring Detroit producers to produce and record background instrumental tracks in Detroit studios for their singers to sing to.  They were, almost exclusively, national pressing/distribution lease deals with Detroit producers, making 100% Detroit productions on 100% Detroit-based singers, almost all of whom were not signed to the nationally-operating non-Detroit record company before being signed for the new production deal.  For example, Detroit's Robert West made a production deal with Atlantic Records for them to press and distribute nationally, The Falcons' records in late 1963, after their deal with UA ended, and they had released only a couple singles on his own LuPine Records.  So, THIS was NOT a case of Atlantic sending their singers to Detroit to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound".  Another couple of Atlantic-distributed labels who released Detroit productions were Wilbur Golden's Correc-Tone and a subsidiary.  In 1963, Robert Bateman (Correc-Tone's Operations Manager, A&R man, and Chief Producer) while trying to get Wilson Pickett signed to Atlantic (but failed-just selling a few songs to them ("If You Need Me" being one), did make a distribution deal with them, for them to distribute Correc-Tone (Theresa Lindsey's "Sugar Mountain"), and Correc-Tone Subsidiary (half owned by Golden and half by Herman Griffin, Hit Records (The Moments' "Don't Take Your Love From Me).  At the same time, Bateman leased a bunch of Correc-Tone productions to Lloyd Price's Double L Records (Herman Griffin's "Mr. Heartbreak", Buddy Lamp's "Thank You Love"(written by Ivy Hunter), and enough independent productions of Wilson Pickett songs to make 4 Double -L singles plus a Double-L LP (4 songs of which had been Correc-Tone productions, but Bateman took them in lieu of missed pay when he quit Correc-Tone, from Golden's inability to pay him for all his work).  Pickett then signed with Atlantic.  They sent him to Memphis to record with Stax.  But, I don't believe they ever sent him back to Detroit to record.  I DO seem to have a faint memory of Atlantic sending Aretha Franklin back home to Detroit to record a few cuts.

 

[Robbk]

On 05/11/2021 at 07:49, The Yank said:

    I would guess there were 2 different pressing plants that pressed up the 45's. That would also explain the "Dearly Beloved" and "My Dear Beloved" issues

A few more for the list Andrea Henry and Spyder Turner on MGM, Emanuel Laskey's "Lucky..." on WIld Deuce, and the Honeybees on Garrison

   I also think the Charmaines "Eternally" was recorded in Detroit.

 

Andrea Henry and Spyder Turner on MGM were simply both entire productions done in Detroit, but by Detroit producers, on Detroit-based singers, so they don't fit the parameters of what Wilxy wants.  Those Detroit recordings were just leased to MGM, and so, those 2 artists were only signed to MGM after the lease was agreed upon.

The Charmaines and Gigi and The Charmaines on Columbia and Date Records were totally Detroit productions, and only leased to Columbia by Detroit producer, Herman Griffin, after he made a pressing and distribution production deal with them.  It's not like The Charmaines had been a New York group already signed to Columbia and were sent by them to Detroit to record.  They were a Cincinnati group, the lead of which, Gigi, was Herman's one-time and future ladyfriend from when he lived in Cincinnati, before moving to Detroit.  Her group, The Charmaines, had some regional hits on Cincinnati's Fraternity Records (one of them went national, as picked up by Dot Records).  After ex-Motowner, Griffin, had been divorced from Mary Wells, and finally gave up on trying to get her to allow him to manage her career, he sent for Gigi, who came to stay with him in Detroit.  He got her group the production deal with Columbia, and the rest of the girls remained living in Cincinnati, and only traveled to Detroit to record, and play some gigs.  That really wasn't a case of Columbia sending their artists to Detroit to record and get a better sound.  But, rather, it was a Detroit producer producing Detroit material on his group that lived far away, but would have come to Detroit to record, in any case, because that is where the producer operated.

Emanuel Lasky's "Lucky To Be Loved By You" was NOT New York producer, Jesse Herring, sending his New York singer, Emanuel Lasky, to Detroit.  Lasky always lived in Detroit.  The 2 cuts on thisWild Deuce Record were leased to that New York label by their Detroit-based producer, Don Davis, who had produced and recorded them in Detroit for his Thelma Records, not very long before he split up, leaving from his partnership with Hazel and Robert Coleman (parents of Berry Gordy's first wife, Thelma).  Part of the break up deal was that Davis would retain a number of Thelma master tapes of songs that had not yet been released by Thelma Records.  In addition to these 2 cuts ("Our World" being the 2nd), he retained cuts by Rose Battiste, and several others, all of which remained among his own Groovesville master tapes, and were later released first on a bootlegged set of cassette tapes, and later on a CD, and  some were also released on oldies reissue 45s labels.  That is why some of those so-called "Groovesville" recordings sound so much like like Thelma recordings and less like Groovesville recordings, and why "former" Thelma artists ended up recording for Groovesville, which was surprising to many of us, when they actually never did record directly for Groovesville Records.  In any case, this record doesn't meet the criteria of this thread.

I've already explained the circumstances of Don Mancha and Travler's Honeybees record on a previous post.

 

[Robbk]

On 05/11/2021 at 08:39, D9 Ktf said:

Get It Baby/ Quit Twisting My Arm - Stanley Mitchell - Dynamo

content://com.android.chrome.FileProvider/images/screenshot/16361266099411475959419.jpg

Stanley Mitchell was a Detroiter.  Dynamo was one of the labels, subsidiary of Musicor Records, both of whose Soul Music production teams were run by New York producer Luther Dixon, with whom Detroit producer, Popcorn Wylie, made a production pressing, label credit, and distribution deal in late 1965, or early 1966.  It also included recordings for The Platters for Musicor.  Again, this record doesn't meet the criteria of this thread, as Mitchell was a Detroit artist, who came to the deal through Wiley.  He had been lead singer of The Tornados, who recorded for Robert West, both on his Bumble Bee Records, and leased to Chess Records during the 1950s.  He was not signed to New York's Dynamo Records before the deal was made. 

On the other hand, The Platters' cuts DO, however, meet the criteria, as THEY weren't from Detroit, and weren't recording for Wylie before the deal.  They had been signed to Musicor, and their Musicor producer, Luther Dixon, decided, together with the group's members, that they wanted to get a new, fresh, modern sound - away from their mainstay sweet, heavy-stringed/orchestrated MOR-styled ballads.  They wanted more Soulful material, and thought "The Sound of Detroit" would help them get there.  The Platters had previously lived in L.A. and, I think, a while, after joining Mercury Records, and, I believe they were in New York after joining Musicor.  So it WAS their record company, that sent them to Detroit.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Robbk

[Solidsoul]

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

Stanley Mitchell was a Detroiter.  Dynamo was one of the labels, subsidiary of Musicor Records, both of whose Soul Music production teams were run by New York producer Luther Dixon, with whom Detroit producer, Popcorn Wylie, made a production pressing, label credit, and distribution deal in late 1965, or early 1966.  It also included recordings for The Platters for Musicor.  Again, this record doesn't meet the criteria of this thread, as Mitchell was a Detroit artist, who came to the deal through Wiley.  He had been lead singer of The Tornados, who recorded for Robert West, both on his Bumble Bee Records, and leased to Chess Records during the 1950s.  He was not signed to New York's Dynamo Records before the deal was made. 

On the other hand, The Platters' cuts DO, however, meet the criteria, as THEY weren't from Detroit, and weren't recording for Wylie before the deal.  They had been signed to Musicor, and their Musicor producer, Luther Dixon, decided, together with the group's members, that they wanted to get a new, fresh, modern sound - away from their mainstay sweet, heavy-stringed/orchestrated MOR-styled ballads.  They wanted more Soulful material, and thought "The Sound of Detroit" would help them get there.  The Platters had previously lived in L.A. and, I think, a while, after joining Mercury Records, and, I believe they were in New York after joining Musicor.  So it WAS there record company, that sent them to Detroit.

Thanks for the excellent info. So I was on the right track, but should of gone with The Platters, Detriot productions instead of Stanley Mitchell.    Things like "Going Back To Detroit" etc.

[Robbk]

On 05/11/2021 at 15:12, Wilxy said:

OK, a few more to consider, having got sidetracked slightly whilst airing some of the vinyl, with a few "curvreballs" in amongst them!

Ruby Andrews I got a bone to pick with you ABC

Volcanos Laws of love/Lady's man Arctic

Some of the Backbeat stuff, Some of the Blue Rock releases. The Boo items written by Bridges/Knight?Eaton.....

Some of the Buddah stuff featuring JJ Barnes, and the Monitors-Fence around your heart?

Betty Lavette on Calla-I feel good all over/Only your love can save me...

Tony Clarke Landslide Chess,           Sharon Soul s' Coral output,      Willie Hatcher on Cotillion

Charmaines on Date

Several items on Duke, including 2 from Bobby Bland-Yum-Yum tree, and these hands small but mighty?

Junior Parker-These kind of blues.....Barbara Lewis on Enterprise....Belita Woods/Betty Lavette on Epic

Laura Lee and the Dells versions of Your Song?

Luther Ingram-Run for your life-Hurdy-Gurdy

Johnny Burke-Love on a lease plan-Joanne

Johnny Daye-Good Time-Jomada

 

To Be Continued, thanks for your assistance.......

The Buddah cuts by J.J. Barnes were just old Detroit productions leased by Don Davis to that New York label.  It wasn't a New York record company sending its already-signed singer to Detroit to record better material to boost his sales.  The Monitors and Henry Lumpkin are New York productions by ex-Motowner, Robert Bateman, deliberately producing his Motownlike New York recordings using Richard "T"'s band to simulate The Motown Sound.  Buddah did NOT send The Monitors or Lumpkin to Detroit to boost their careers.  Luther Ingram was completely produced by Bateman in New York, using Richard T's band.  I sincerely doubt that Junior Parker-These Kind of Blues was recorded in Detroit, based on the musicians' play.  And I doubt it was produced by Joe Hunter in Houston.

Johnny Burke I thought was a Chicago artist, and Joanne was a Chicago label.  The writers, Andre or Ric Williams, Carl Tarlton, Johnny Burke (and Dixon(perhaps Eugene(Gene Chandler?)-all Chicago.  During the late '60s ALL of Andre Williams labels were located back in his hometown of Chicago.  But, as for Duo, Mercury(Blue Rock), Zodiac, and his work with other Chicago labels,at that time, he DID take some of his artists to Detroit to record, so I can't rule it out.  But the instrumentals on The Johnny Burke cuts don't really sound like Detroit musicians, or Detroit studio acoustics, or Detroit mixers.  The ZTSC doesn't mean it was pressed for a Detroit label, as Chicago indie labels were pressed along with Detroit labels at Columbia Terre Haute, Indiana plant.  And just because the song was published by Ed Wingate's Myto Music doesn't mean it was recorded in Detroit.  It's just a song that was published by Golden World/Ric Tic's publisher, probably a few years before, (maybe written by Williams, himself, and he traded the shared publishing rights and royalties to those 3 other people, as a way to pay them money he owed them, that he couldn't pay in cash, as he was broke at that time).  In any case, I really doubt that recording was made in Detroit.

Johnny Daye looks a lot more New York than Detroit, being that Jomada was Johnny Nash's label, and he lived in and operated out of New York.  And the flip side band was a New York band and arranger, and the song was written by Johnny's wife, Margaret.  And, I don't recognise Johnny Daye as a Detroit artist.  However, with Detroit's Just Music, from Just Productions as the publisher on the A side, and Detroiter, Willie Kendrick, and semi-Detroiter James Bryant, and his brother, Frank, who also lived in Chicago, but recorded sometimes in Detroit, and Johnny Terry (the Detroit/NY dealmaker) all involved, in addition to my having for many years heard that this cut was recorded in Detroit, I have to admit that it is certainly possible that Johnny Nash brought Daye to Detroit to get this recorded.  The music and acoustics DO sound like it may well have been recorded in Detroit.  But why only one side?  I can't be certain, because I've never seen any proof.  But, if I had a gun to my head, I'd vote for this being a Detroit recording.  So, it meets the criteria.

Laura Lee - late Disco - reminds me of a few of our own Airwave records!   Laura was a Detroit-based artist.  This was produced by Detroit's Don Davis.  Fantasy was a California label.  I really doubt that this was a case of Fantasy signing Laura Lee because her career was hot, and then they just decided to send her back to her home town of Detroit to record.  It looks suspiciously, a lot more like Don Davis produced this recording in Detroit, on Detroit singer, Laura Lee, and then got a production/lease/distribution deal for her with Fantasy to get it distributed nationally, because he was, at that time, an independent producer, without his own record company with capability of nationwide record distribution.  So, this production DOESN'T meet the thread's criteria.  However, The Dells' version was produced by Carl Davis and Sonny Sanders.  What makes you think they sent The Dells to Detroit to record this?  To get The ex-Funk Brothers (who didn't move to L.A. to record it???  By the mid '70s how could anyone tell it was recorded in Detroit?  I have heard that Chess sent The Dells to Detroit a few times to record.  But I doubt that 20th Century Fox did this late (1980?)

Betty Lavette on Calla Records - doesn't sound ANYTHING like a song recorded in Detroit.  The arranger, Ernie Wilkes, worked out of New York.  Producer, Don Gardner, worked out of New York, other producer and label owner, Nate McCalla, worked out of NY.  The A-side song was written by Detroiters, Bob Hamilton and Don Juan Mancha, and published by Golden World's Myrto Music.  This was clearly, simply a song that Laura had heard when she recorded for Ric Tic, and always wanted to record.  And so, she got her New York company producers to okay her singing it.  They did NOT send her back to her home town of Detroit to record it.

Belita Woods was a Detroit-based singer, who was little known outside Detroit.  I really doubt she would be sought out and signed by a national label outside Detroit, and then sent back to her home town to record.  "I Just Love You" is clearly a Detroit production by ex-Motowners, Barrett Strong and Paul Riser, that found a nationally-distributed home with Epic Records on lease, rather than Columbia "discovering" Woods, and deciding it was best to send her back to her home town to record, and take advantage of "The Detroit Sound", which had lost a lot of ground to "The Sound of Philadelphia" by 1973.  It would be a lot more likely that they'd sign her and send her from Detroit to Philadelphia to record.

Tony Clarke - Landslide - I have heard for many years that this was recorded in Detroit, using many of The Funk Brothers.  But, it doesn't sound like that to me.  I doubt that it really was, until I see some proof of that.

The Volcanos - The Laws of Love - I have heard for years that this was recorded in Detroit, using many of the moonlighting Funk Brothers.  Although I've never seen any official confirmation of that, I can believe it is true, because I can hear Mike Terry's baritone sax, James Jamerson's bass, and some other Motown players on it.  Interesting that it was written by The Vibrations' Carl Fisher, and also interesting that it doesn't list the producer or arranger,  like most Arctic records do.  Maybe that's because they didn't do it in-house, and the Detroiters took a little extra cash to not get the production credits?

Ruby Andrews - I've Got A Bone To Pick With You - Definitely a Detroit production by a Detroit producer.  But 1976 is WAYYYY too late for a record company to be sending a singer to Detroit to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound".  This seems a LOT more likely that producer, George McGregor, didn't own a record company at that time, with enough assets and income to distribute press and distribute records nationally.  So, this was him, placing his record in a pressing/distribution deal with a nationally- distributing label.

Bridges/Knight/Eaton-Boo Records, Don Robey's Houston labels, and Charmaines, and Luther Ingram explained on other posts.

Barbara Lewis on Stax's Enterprise Records - clearly wasn't Stax seeking Barbara Lewis out, and then sending her back to her home town to record to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound".  But, it was was rather,  Detroit producer, Ollie McLaughlin, placing his biggest star (also a southeastern Michigan resident) with a different national label to get her records pressed up and distributed nationally, after their deal with Atlantic Records was up, and Atlantic didn't want to renew their previous deal, because her sales were flagging.  Stax was interested, likely because their own older, funky style, was starting to become stale, and they had already had started venturing into The Detroit sound by making a large production deal with McLaughlin's Detroit colleague, Don Davis.  The deal with McLaughlin would dovetail right in with that and make that move stronger.

Sharon Soul on Coral Records - This was strictly a New York operation.  No Detroit recordings here!  Ex-Motowner, now a full-time in New York producer, Robert Bateman, recorded all (New York singer) Sharon's songs in New York City, using Richard "T"'s Band, with the latter as arranger.  Her most Motownlike and Detroity songs were written by Batemasn in his past Motown style.  I can understand why the rumours started that these were recorded in Detroit, especially because Bateman returned to Detroit to record a few sessions for Mary Wells on 2oth Century Fox and Luther Ingram on HIB, and "His Love Is Amazing" is Bateman's most Motown-sounding New York recording.  He really captured The Motown Sound on that one.  But no one has ever proved that Sharon Soul ever recorded in Detroit.

Willie Hatcher on Cotillion Records - Again, this is not Atlantic Records seeking to sign World Class star singer, Willie Hatcher, and then graciously allowing him to return to his home city of Detroit to record, because they wanted to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound".  But, rather, it was another of those local producers trying to get a national pressing and distribution deal with a big company.  Hatcher came along with a production/lease deal with Detroit producer, Don Davis, right after his deal with Stax (who was starting to have big cash flow deficits) pulled out of their deal with him, OR he pulled out from them  because he foresaw problems in the future.  In any case, Cotillion had to take Hatcher if they wanted to get Davis' star, Darrell Banks.  Unfortunately, nobody expected that Banks would soon after be deceased after only one Cotillion 45).

 

 

 

2 hours ago, D9 Ktf said:

Thanks for the excellent info. So I was on the right track, but should of gone with The Platters, Detroit productions instead of Stanley Mitchell.    Things like "Going Back To Detroit" etc.

Exactly!

Edited November 13, 2021 by Robbk

[Robbk]

On 06/11/2021 at 03:54, Mal C said:

Which Marva Josie tracks were recorded in Detroit?  
 

I interviewed her in the early 2000’s  that chat is on a tape somewhere.  She told me the recording of ‘Don’t’ nearly never happened as Horace Ott was really really really late for the session, maybe gave them a bit of a push or intensity to get it right. 

As far as I know for sure, only Marva's 2 Correc-Tone recordings "Later For You, Baby", and "You Lied" that were leased to Bob Shad's New York label, Time Records, were recorded in Detroit, other than, possibly, "I Don't Care", which is the A side of her follow-up release to the Time record, on New York's Sahara Records, which was a Correc-Tone song written by Marva, ex-Satintone, and Correc-Tone arranger, Sonny Sanders, and Correc-Tone's main arranger, and in-house band leader, and piano player, Willie Harbert.  If it was recorded in Detroit's Correc-Tone Studio, its master tape was also taken to New York by Bateman to lease along with the other 2 cuts, but Shad didn't want it.  So, Bateman leased it to New York's tiny Sahara Records, run by later Motown producer Al Cleveland and Arthur Crier(former member of The Mellows and Halos).  It sounds very like a Correc-Tone recording as opposed to the New York-sounding flip, "Heartbreak City", produced and written by label owners, Cleveland and Crier, and arranged by a New York arranger and band leader, Bill Ramal. 

The only other possibility was that Marva, herself, signed on her own with Sahara Records after Shad dropped her, without even trying a 2nd 45 on her, and she wanted to sing that Correc-Tone song she had rehearsed when with that Detroit label.  After that, she signed with United Artists in New York, and did all her recording for them there.  I assume that she had moved there from Toronto by then.  After her UA contract was up, as far as I know, she recorded only Jazz, and none of that recording was done in Detroit.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Robbk

[Robbk]

I don't know where I saw Wilxy's reference to the Tobi Legend record on New York's Mala Records.  But, that was also a Detroit production by John Rhys, who was working at that time for Harry Balk's Impact Records, as can be seen by Balk's music publisher's name, Gomba Music.  This was a Detroit-based singer's Detroit production, leased to a New York record company Amy-Mala-Bell Records, in a pressing and distribution deal to get national coverage.  So, it wasn't an out-of-Detroit label sending its New York artist to Detroit to take advantage of Detroit's music industry's talents and facilities.

Melvin Davis' releases on Bell Records occurred for the same reason.  Davis had produced them in Detroit, and leased them to Bell to get national distribution.

George McGregor, another Detroit drummer and record producer also leased some of his later productions to major labels in New York to get national distribution.  One of these was Rena Scott's "I Just Forget That Boy" leased to Columbia's Epic Records. 

After Ed Wingate sold off most of his Golden World assets to Motown, he produced recording sessions at United Sound Studio, and leased them to Wand and Columbia Records.  Diane Lewis' "Please Let Me Love You", originally released on Golden World subsidiary, Love Records, was later leased to Wand, as was the follow-up record, "I Thank You Kindly", released directly by Wand. He also produced a record by The Players on Columbia.

Other Correc-Tone leases to national labels were The Pyramids' 2nd release, "What Is Love?" leased to Chicago's  VJ Records, Timiko's (Tamiko Jones') "Is It A Sin" (produced by Robert Bateman and Popcorn Wylie, and leased to Chess, Freddie Bridges' "Baby Don't You Weep", leased to New York's tiny, Versatile Records (Correc-Tone's version sung by Wilson Pickett had been leased to Double-L, and later was re-issued on Price's label's distributor, Liberty Records.

Ha! - Writing this all out in a book illustrated with label scans would have been no harder than making all these posts! 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Robbk

[The Yank]

10 hours ago, Robbk said:

 

Johnny Daye looks a lot more New York than Detroit, being that Jomada was Johnny Nash's label, and he lived in and operated out of New York.  And the flip side band was a New York band and arranger, and the song was written by Johnny's wife, Margaret.  And, I don't recognise Johnny Daye as a Detroit artist.  However, with Detroit's Just Music, from Just Productions as the publisher on the A side, and Detroiter, Willie Kendrick, and semi-Detroiter James Bryant, and his brother, Frank, who also lived in Chicago, but recorded sometimes in Detroit, and Johnny Terry (the Detroit/NY dealmaker) all involved, in addition to my having for many years heard that this cut was recorded in Detroit, I have to admit that it is certainly possible that Johnny Nash brought Daye to Detroit to get this recorded.  The music and acoustics DO sound like it may well have been recorded in Detroit.  But why only one side?  I can't be certain, because I've never seen any proof.  But, if I had a gun to my head, I'd vote for this being a Detroit recording.  So, it meets the criteria.

      According to an article in "There's That Beat" #2, Johnny Nash worked with Johnny Terry to get the Just Brothers signed to his Jomada label. 

                When their 45 came out, their vocals were replaced by Johnny Daye and their contract was cancelled !

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by The Yank

[The Yank]

17 hours ago, Robbk said:

  It's fairly easy to tell by ear, which tracks were recorded by Mike Terry and Joe Hunter in Detroit.  Hunter left the production team before they expanded production to Kapp Records (which, I believe why his name appears on none of The Kapp Pied Piper releases). 

  His name also appears on these Hesitations song- "I'm Not Built That Way", "Wait A Minute", "You Can't Bypass Love" and "Soul Superman". There are a  few Freddie Butler songs with his name also. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by The Yank

[Wilxy]

11 hours ago, Robbk said:

The Buddah cuts by J.J. Barnes were just old Detroit productions leased by Don Davis to that New York label.  It wasn't a New York record company sending its already-signed singer to Detroit to record better material to boost his sales.  The Monitors and Henry Lumpkin are New York productions by ex-Motowner, Robert Bateman, deliberately producing his Motownlike New York recordings using Richard "T"'s band to simulate The Motown Sound.  Buddah did NOT send The Monitors or Lumpkin to Detroit to boost their careers.  Luther Ingram was completely produced by Bateman in New York, using Richard T's band.  I sincerely doubt that Junior Parker-These Kind of Blues was recorded in Detroit, based on the musicians' play.  And I doubt it was produced by Joe Hunter in Houston.

Johnny Burke I thought was a Chicago artist, and Joanne was a Chicago label.  The writers, Andre or Ric Williams, Carl Tarlton, Johnny Burke (and Dixon(perhaps Eugene(Gene Chandler?)-all Chicago.  During the late '60s ALL of Andre Williams labels were located back in his hometown of Chicago.  But, as for Duo, Mercury(Blue Rock), Zodiac, and his work with other Chicago labels,at that time, he DID take some of his artists to Detroit to record, so I can't rule it out.  But the instrumentals on The Johnny Burke cuts don't really sound like Detroit musicians, or Detroit studio acoustics, or Detroit mixers.  The ZTSC doesn't mean it was pressed for a Detroit label, as Chicago indie labels were pressed along with Detroit labels at Columbia Terre Haute, Indiana plant.  And just because the song was published by Ed Wingate's Myto Music doesn't mean it was recorded in Detroit.  It's just a song that was published by Golden World/Ric Tic's publisher, probably a few years before, (maybe written by Williams, himself, and he traded the shared publishing rights and royalties to those 3 other people, as a way to pay them money he owed them, that he couldn't pay in cash, as he was broke at that time).  In any case, I really doubt that recording was made in Detroit.

Johnny Daye looks a lot more New York than Detroit, being that Jomada was Johnny Nash's label, and he lived in and operated out of New York.  And the flip side band was a New York band and arranger, and the song was written by Johnny's wife, Margaret.  And, I don't recognise Johnny Daye as a Detroit artist.  However, with Detroit's Just Music, from Just Productions as the publisher on the A side, and Detroiter, Willie Kendrick, and semi-Detroiter James Bryant, and his brother, Frank, who also lived in Chicago, but recorded sometimes in Detroit, and Johnny Terry (the Detroit/NY dealmaker) all involved, in addition to my having for many years heard that this cut was recorded in Detroit, I have to admit that it is certainly possible that Johnny Nash brought Daye to Detroit to get this recorded.  The music and acoustics DO sound like it may well have been recorded in Detroit.  But why only one side?  I can't be certain, because I've never seen any proof.  But, if I had a gun to my head, I'd vote for this being a Detroit recording.  So, it meets the criteria.

Laura Lee - late Disco - reminds me of a few of our own Airwave records!   Laura was a Detroit-based artist.  This was produced by Detroit's Don Davis.  Fantasy was a California label.  I really doubt that this was a case of Fantasy signing Laura Lee because her career was hot, and then they just decided to send her back to her home town of Detroit to record.  It looks suspiciously, a lot more like Don Davis produced this recording in Detroit, on Detroit singer, Laura Lee, and then got a production/lease/distribution deal for her with Fantasy to get it distributed nationally, because he was, at that time, an independent producer, without his own record company with capability of nationwide record distribution.  So, this production DOESN'T meet the thread's criteria.  However, The Dells' version was produced by Carl Davis and Sonny Sanders.  What makes you think they sent The Dells to Detroit to record this?  To get The ex-Funk Brothers (who didn't move to L.A. to record it???  By the mid '70s how could anyone tell it was recorded in Detroit?  I have heard that Chess sent The Dells to Detroit a few times to record.  But I doubt that 20th Century Fox did this late (1980?)

Betty Lavette on Calla Records - doesn't sound ANYTHING like a song recorded in Detroit.  The arranger, Ernie Wilkes, worked out of New York.  Producer, Don Gardner, worked out of New York, other producer and label owner, Nate McCalla, worked out of NY.  The A-side song was written by Detroiters, Bob Hamilton and Don Juan Mancha, and published by Golden World's Myrto Music.  This was clearly, simply a song that Laura had heard when she recorded for Ric Tic, and always wanted to record.  And so, she got her New York company producers to okay her singing it.  They did NOT send her back to her home town of Detroit to record it.

Belita Woods was a Detroit-based singer, who was little known outside Detroit.  I really doubt she would be sought out and signed by a national label outside Detroit, and then sent back to her home town to record.  "I Just Love You" is clearly a Detroit production by ex-Motowners, Barrett Strong and Paul Riser, that found a nationally-distributed home with Epic Records on lease, rather than Columbia "discovering" Woods, and deciding it was best to send her back to her home town to record, and take advantage of "The Detroit Sound", which had lost a lot of ground to "The Sound of Philadelphia" by 1973.  It would be a lot more likely that they'd sign her and send her from Detroit to Philadelphia to record.

Tony Clarke - Landslide - I have heard for many years that this was recorded in Detroit, using many of The Funk Brothers.  But, it doesn't sound like that to me.  I doubt that it really was, until I see some proof of that.

The Volcanos - The Laws of Love - I have heard for years that this was recorded in Detroit, using many of the moonlighting Funk Brothers.  Although I've never seen any official confirmation of that, I can believe it is true, because I can hear Mike Terry's baritone sax, James Jamerson's bass, and some other Motown players on it.  Interesting that it was written by The Vibrations' Carl Fisher, and also interesting that it doesn't list the producer or arranger,  like most Arctic records do.  Maybe that's because they didn't do it in-house, and the Detroiters took a little extra cash to not get the production credits?

Ruby Andrews - I've Got A Bone To Pick With You - Definitely a Detroit production by a Detroit producer.  But 1976 is WAYYYY too late for a record company to be sending a singer to Detroit to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound".  This seems a LOT more likely that producer, George McGregor, didn't own a record company at that time, with enough assets and income to distribute press and distribute records nationally.  So, this was him, placing his record in a pressing/distribution deal with a nationally- distributing label.

Bridges/Knight/Eaton-Boo Records, Don Robey's Houston labels, and Charmaines, and Luther Ingram explained on other posts.

Barbara Lewis on Stax's Enterprise Records - clearly wasn't Stax seeking Barbara Lewis out, and then sending her back to her home town to record to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound".  But, it was was rather,  Detroit producer, Ollie McLaughlin, placing his biggest star (also a southeastern Michigan resident) with a different national label to get her records pressed up and distributed nationally, after their deal with Atlantic Records was up, and Atlantic didn't want to renew their previous deal, because her sales were flagging.  Stax was interested, likely because their own older, funky style, was starting to become stale, and they had already had started venturing into The Detroit sound by making a large production deal with McLaughlin's Detroit colleague, Don Davis.  The deal with McLaughlin would dovetail right in with that and make that move stronger.

Sharon Soul on Coral Records - This was strictly a New York operation.  No Detroit recordings here!  Ex-Motowner, now a full-time in New York producer, Robert Bateman, recorded all (New York singer) Sharon's songs in New York City, using Richard "T"'s Band, with the latter as arranger.  Her most Motownlike and Detroity songs were written by Batemasn in his past Motown style.  I can understand why the rumours started that these were recorded in Detroit, especially because Bateman returned to Detroit to record a few sessions for Mary Wells on 2oth Century Fox and Luther Ingram on HIB, and "His Love Is Amazing" is Bateman's most Motown-sounding New York recording.  He really captured The Motown Sound on that one.  But no one has ever proved that Sharon Soul ever recorded in Detroit.

Willie Hatcher on Cotillion Records - Again, this is not Atlantic Records seeking to sign World Class star singer, Willie Hatcher, and then graciously allowing him to return to his home city of Detroit to record, because they wanted to take advantage of "The Detroit Sound".  But, rather, it was another of those local producers trying to get a national pressing and distribution deal with a big company.  Hatcher came along with a production/lease deal with Detroit producer, Don Davis, right after his deal with Stax (who was starting to have big cash flow deficits) pulled out of their deal with him, OR he pulled out from them  because he foresaw problems in the future.  In any case, Cotillion had to take Hatcher if they wanted to get Davis' star, Darrell Banks.  Unfortunately, nobody expected that Banks would soon after be deceased after only one Cotillion 45).

 

 

 

Exactly!

Robb , I humbly doff my cap to you, absolutely superb feedback....Thank You Very Much.!

Edited November 13, 2021 by Wilxy
Extend the compliments

[Wilxy]

Guys, I Thank you so much for your feedback, ....Brilliant stuff!!!

Please Keep it coming!

Edited November 13, 2021 by Wilxy

[Wilxy]

What's the story behind the Wild Deuce Label, and the links with Emanuel Laskey and Sharon Soul etc.?

[The Yank]

From Record World August 28 and March 6,1965 issues - 

Edited November 16, 2021 by The Yank

[Robbk]

On 13/11/2021 at 11:28, The Yank said:

  His name also appears on these Hesitations song- "I'm Not Built That Way", "Wait A Minute", "You Can't Bypass Love" and "Soul Superman". There are a  few Freddie Butler songs with his name also. 

Sorry!  I should have written: "why his name didn't appear on a producer's credit on Kapp Records DJ issues" issued after he left Pied Piper".  Certainly, recordings released on Kapp, on which his name appeared as a songwriter, could have been written previously, when Hunter was working for Pied Piper under the RCA contract, during its early period, before they started also with Kapp.

[The Yank]

On 12/11/2021 at 19:49, Robbk said:

As to Pied Piper's RCA and Kapp production, Jack Ashford and Lorraine Chandler teamed together with Joe Hunter and Mike Terry to get a large production deal with New York's RCA office, similar to the deal Hunter had with Houston's Don Robey.  There was cross-fertilization, having Pied Piper write songs and record most of the background tracks in Detroit, with Pied Piper Detroit-(or Cleveland-based, in the case of The Hesitations) artists recording their vocals mostly in Detroit, and some in New York, produced by RCA's Paul Robinson, and, possibly some RCA non-Detroit artists going to Detroit to record.  

   There was also a Pied Piper- Chicago connection. Reading the liner notes to the Ace/Kent/Pied Piper reissues, the following songs are said to have been recorded at RCA's Chicago studios- September Jones'unreleased "Chink A Chank Baby", Sharon Scott's "I'd Like To Know"/ "Could It Be You", Willie Kendrick's "What's That on Your Finger" and "Change Your Ways". 

                  The Metros RCA album mentions the "Detroit Sound" 3 times in the liner notes, but on the bottom left corner, this appears-  I'm not sure how much of the LP was recorded in Chicago.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by The Yank

[Wheelsville1]

5 hours ago, The Yank said:

From Record World March 6th and August 28, 1965 issues - 

With regards to Emanuel Laskey on wild deuce,i was told many years ago that it was originally due to be released as thelma 103.Hence there is no thelma 103. 

[Robbk]

4 hours ago, The Yank said:

   There was also a Pied Piper- Chicago connection. Reading the liner notes to the Ace/Kent/Pied Piper reissues, the following songs are said to have been recorded at RCA's Chicago studios- September Jones'unreleased "Chink A Chank Baby", Sharon Scott's "I'd Like To Know"/ "Could It Be You", Willie Kendrick's "What's That on Your Finger" and "Change Your Ways". 

                  The Metros RCA album mentions the "Detroit Sound" 3 times in the liner notes, but on the bottom left corner, this appears-  I'm not sure how much of the LP was recorded in Chicago.

 

 

I'm guessing that the vocals and instrumentals were recorded in Detroit(United Sound?), but the final mixes were done at RCA Chicago.

[Robbk]

4 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

With regards to Emanuel Laskey on wild deuce,i was told many years ago that it was originally due to be released as Thelma 103.Hence there is no thelma 103. 

Originally, I thought so too, but I saw a Thelma in-house scheduled release list(that Ron Murphy had a copy), that had a female single artist, Pat Smith, scheduled for 103 ("Going through a Whirlpool").

I think Thelma needed cash badly (which was one of the reasons Don Davis, later, decided to leave), and they were forced to lease that one out, because they didn't have the cash to press up enough copies to saturate the markets nationally, nor a relationship with a distributor who could handle that.  I think it was Davis seeing the writing on the wall that Thelma Records was going to go out of business, rather than The Colemans forcing him out because he was doing a poor job, because the appointed their in-house band leader, Joey King Fish Stribling, to take over Davis' role as A&R man and chief producer, rather than having a better candidate than Davis ready to hire.  So, it's most likely that leasing the Lasky record was just a desperate measure to bring more operating cash in to remain afloat. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Robbk

[The Yank]

3 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

With regards to Emanuel Laskey on wild deuce,i was told many years ago that it was originally due to be released as thelma 103.Hence there is no thelma 103. 

        I think it is possible or at least falls in the release timeline.

         #102- Rose Battiste appears to have a Nov./ Dec. 1964 release. (Wax To Watch #8)

         The Emmanuel Laskey  article above was in the March, 1965 issue of Record World and was charting in April,1965

         #104- Joe Matthews- I can't find specific release info.

         #105- Eddie Hill appears to have been release in May, 1965 (Wax To Watch #8)

 

            

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by The Yank

[Robbk]

2 minutes ago, The Yank said:

        I think it is possible or at least falls in the release timeline.

         #102- Rose Battiste appears to have a Nov./ Dec. 1964 release.

            The info for the Wild Deuce / Emmanuel Laskey came from the  March 6, 1965 issue of Record World and was charting in April, 1965 

          #104- Joe Matthews came out around May, 1965 

Check out my post above this one, which mentions Pat Smith's scheduled, or slated release of "Whirlpool", as #103. 

[The Yank]

I saw that and also saw the part where you said the purchase  for Emmanuel Laskey was in August when it was actually in March 1965. 

         This would explain how Emmanuel Laskey would be charting at #17 in April, 1965 on the Tiger radio survey.

[Robbk]

53 minutes ago, The Yank said:

I saw that and also saw the part where you said the purchase  for Emmanuel Laskey was in August when it was actually in March 1965. 

         This would explain how Emmanuel Laskey would be charting at #17 in April, 1965 on the Tiger radio survey.

 

54 minutes ago, The Yank said:

I saw that and also saw the part where you said the purchase  for Emmanuel Laskey was in August when it was actually in March 1965. 

         This would explain how Emmanuel Laskey would be charting at #17 in April, 1965 on the Tiger radio survey.

Sorry.  I was just going by the 2 dates you listed above for The Fedro and Wild Deuce articles in Record World.  As you posted the Fedro article first and Wild Deuce second, I assumed the articles' dates would be in the same order.  Given that the lease was agreed upon in March, then, it seems likely that Davis leased the record to Wild Deuce, because Thelma was out of cash, and the up-front lease "down-payment" portion would help them fund some other record recordings and pressings they had planned.  I didn't see "Lucky To Be Loved By You" on Ron's list, so, that schedule, or slated list, must have been made after Davis, or Joey Kingfish had decided that it would need to be leased out.

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, The Yank said:

        I think it is possible or at least falls in the release timeline.

         #102- Rose Battiste appears to have a Nov./ Dec. 1964 release.

            The info for the Wild Deuce / Emmanuel Laskey came from the  March 6, 1965 issue of Record World and was charting in April, 1965 

          #104- Joe Matthews came out around May, 1965

That gap between The Rose Battiste release in December '64, and the Joe Matthews in May '65, must represent the cash poor period Thelma experienced, plus some weeks to gear up the held up projects waiting on the initial lease front money.  The Pat Smith songs were both recorded, but Thelma chose not to release them.  Maybe, during that time gap Pat decided to end her career before it began (marriage, attending college, getting a decent-paying day job)? 

[Robbk]

Is this Marvelous Ray "Whirlpool" the exact same original Thelma Records early 1965 recording of Pat Smith singing that song? The instrumental is the exact same. The voice sounds the same to me, as well. I wonder if the Abner label was owned by Ronnie Abner, who was, at that time, still a member of The Fabulous Peps, who also recorded for Thelma on their GeGe subsidiary label. Abner was also a songwriter and assistant producer with the company. This record list "James" Abner as the writer. I wonder how "James Abner" got ahold of the masters for this record, which should have been owned by Hazel and Robert Coleman or Don Davis, depending upon the agreement with Don Davis upon his leaving The Thelma Records partnership.  And He took credit for writing the song, and somehow got the publishing rights, too.

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Robbk

[Wilxy]

9 hours ago, Robbk said:

Is this Marvelous Ray "Whirlpool" the exact same original Thelma Records early 1965 recording of Pat Smith singing that song? The instrumental is the exact same. The voice sounds the same to me, as well. I wonder if the Abner label was owned by Ronnie Abner, who was, at that time, still a member of The Fabulous Peps, who also recorded for Thelma on their GeGe subsidiary label. Abner was also a songwriter and assistant producer with the company. This record list "James" Abner as the writer. I wonder how "James Abner" got ahold of the masters for this record, which should have been owned by Hazel and Robert Coleman or Don Davis, depending upon the agreement with Don Davis upon his leaving The Thelma Records partnership.  And He took credit for writing the song, and somehow got the publishing rights, too.

 

TBH Robb,  the above version by Marvelous Ray Whirlpool, was also done by Steve Mancha, and written by James Abner, and now having heard the Pat Smith version, it is the same but one of her 4 unreleased Thelma 45's, having previously believing it may have been a different track.......(Doh!)

Edited November 16, 2021 by Wilxy
ammending post

[Robbk]

5 hours ago, Wilxy said:

TBH Robb,  the above version by Marvelous Ray Whirlpool, was also done by Steve Mancha, and written by James Abner, and now having heard the Pat Smith version, it is the same but one of her 4 unreleased Thelma 45's, having previously believing it may have been a different track.......(Doh!)

Does anyone know who James Abner was?  Ronnie Abner was a member of Tom Storm and The Peps, who recorded for Thelma (on their GeGe subsidiary label, and Ronnie was also an assistant  producer to both Don Davis and Norman Whitfield, as well as a songwriter for Thelma.  There must be some connection.  Maybe Ronnie's full name was Ronald James Abner?  I think that despite The Peps moving on to other labels in mid 1965, Ronnie continued writing songs for Thelma into 1966.  The Abner label design looks like a common New York label design from 1965-67, but, was also Syd Nathan's  Cincinnati-based King Records pressing plant's label design font for most of that labels 45 RPM producing period.  I have also seen a few Detroit and Chicago, Texas, West Coast and East Coast records use it possibly into the early 1970s for re-issues, and maybe even issuing new finds from newly found master tapes and acetates of never-before issued recordings.  Could all such records have been new issues to service The Oldies demand in USA, The Beach Scene, The French-Belgian-German Soul and  and the UK NS Scenes?

Steve Mancha's "Whirlpool" was written by Ronnie Abner and Don Davis.  It is an entirely different song from The Pat Smith song that was discovered from her master tape, and looks suspiciously to me as if it must have been covered up as by "Marvelous Ray", and then became a "Hit" on The Northern scene, and there was so much demand for it (perhaps in the late 1970s or early 1980s?) that it was pressed up on the Abner records pressing.  The people making the pressing order gave the song's real writer a nod, by using the name Abner, but, as it was still being covered up, didn't want others to discover what it really was, so it wouldn't be so "exclusive" any more, so they changed the first name to James.  They used "Abner" for the label name as well to make it look somewhat feasible as a possible legitimate 1960s non-Detroit record, using the Cincinnati font.

[The Yank]

The 45 did well in Cleveland ( but it looks like nowhere else) and reached #14 in early  1966 - 

 

[Robbk]

9 minutes ago, The Yank said:

The 45 did well in Cleveland ( but it looks like nowhere else) and reached #14 in early  1966 - 

 

So, Marvelous Ray was a legitimate 1960s release of those Pat Smith Thelma recordings!  Then, who was James Abner?  Where was Abner Records located.  How did Abner get hold of Thelma masters while they were still operating?  What is the relationship of The Peps' Ronnie Abner to James Abner?  Was Ronnie Abner's real full name Ronald James Abner?  Interesting that Ronnie was co-writer with producer Don Davis on "Whirlpool" by Steve Mancha, and Don Davis was producer on both songs, but they are completely different songs, with different titles, different lyrics, different tunes, and different instrumental music.  The label design and font are the same as Syd Nathan's Cincinnati King Records pressing plant.  So, whoever put this out may have pressed it in Cincinnati.  Thelma was still operated by The Colemans and Joey Kingfish Stribling in January 1966.  But Don Davis was gone, and, Ronnie Abner and Tom Storm's Peps were gone, although, I'm not sure whether or not Abner was still writing some songs for them.  Davis ended up with the masters from his own Thelma productions.  So, I'd guess that he took them when he left Thelma in late 1965.  But, it would seem odd to me for him to release a one-off issue on a one-off label pressed inn Cincinnati, and not use Groovesville music as the publisher.  And why would Detroit's Ronnie Abner go to Cincinnati to press up a record?

This all seems very strange.  I hope some others here will know the answers to these questions.

[The Yank]

1 hour ago, Robbk said:

 But, it would seem odd to me for him to release a one-off issue on a one-off label pressed inn Cincinnati, and not use Groovesville music as the publisher.  And why would Detroit's Ronnie Abner go to Cincinnati to press up a record?

This all seems very strange.  I hope some others here will know the answers to these questions.

 Who said this was a one off label ?? Marvelous Ray had three other releases on Abner- 

#1001- "I Know The Secret"/ "Just You"

#1002- "I'll Wait For You"/ "I Want To Cry"

#1003- "I Know The Secret"/ "I Believe In Miracles"

            According to discogs, Marvelous Ray is a real artist from Cleveland and that is her real name. 

[The Yank]

From Cashbox August 15th, 1964-

         I'm guessing this Abner based in Cleveland is the same publisher as the Marvelous Ray 45- 

[Robbk]

2 hours ago, The Yank said:

From Cashbox August 15th, 1964-

         I'm guessing this Abner based in Cleveland is the same publisher as the Marvelous Ray 45- 

But, I've seen Thelma lists with Pat Smith having 3 different pairs of recordings (6 songs that could form 3 single releases.  They all were written by Thelma Records songwriters and produced by Don Davis.  At least the 2 slated for Thelma 103 had ZTSC numbers assigned, that matched the time period perfectly.  Maybe Marvelous Ray WAS Pat Smith.  Maybe Ms. Smith WAS someone named Ray, from Cleveland, using Pat Smith as a stage name, when contracting with Thelma Records in 1965, to be a vocalist on records for them.  Maybe James Abner, from Cleveland, having the same last name as Ronnie Abner, who worked with Don Davis was just a coincidence.  The Marvelous Ray version of Pat Smith's "Going Through A Whirlpool" sounds to me as EXACTLY the same recording, vocals same singer, instrumental exact same musicians and take and mix.  So, IF my ears don't deceive me, I want to know how James Abner got those masters that should have been in Don Davis' or The Colemans' hands in January, 1966.  If The Colemans sold those masters to James Abner, they would have also had to sell the publishing rights and copyrights to the writing of the songs, for those credits on the Abner record to be legitimate.  But, I thought that the masters to those 2 songs were among Don Davis' masters obtained from his son during The 1990s.

In any case, I hope we can find out the answers to the tie-ins between Thelma and Abner Records, and Marvelous Ray and Pat Smith.  Do you Know if any of her other records on Abner had any other Thelma songs on them? Or other Detroit written, or Detroit produced/recorded songs?

3 hours ago, The Yank said:

 Who said this was a one off label ?? Marvelous Ray had three other releases on Abner- 

#1001- "I Know The Secret"/ "Just You"

#1002- "I'll Wait For You"/ "I Want To Cry"

#1003- "I Know The Secret"/ "I Believe In Miracles"

            According to discogs, Marvelous Ray is a real artist from Cleveland and that is her real name. 

Did they list Ray's family name?

Edited November 16, 2021 by Robbk

[Wilxy]

Thanks for the feedback to date guys, most of which has been invaluable , having said that from a personal perspective collecting wise, there are still many grey areas! Whilst I appreciate all decent Soul Music from wherever, after several previous collections had to be sold for a variety of reasons from 1974 to date, my penchant for all things Detroit started when I was left with a large handful of my Motown favourites back at the beginning of 2001, and the rest is history so to speak, and my interest has grown from then onward......

Anyway as stated, I'm still in the "dark" with regard some of the non Detroit labels that utilised their artist(e)s within the Detroit  studio recording facilities  from a completist perspective ! i.e the Don Robey catalogue in total etc. The Arctic label (considering the Philly and Detroit collaborations), amongst several of the other "out of town labels" alas, if anyone can help I'll ask the following.......

Can anyone elaborate on the following artist(e) output with regard to specifically Detroit recordings......

Jo Armstead /Larry Banks-Don't pull away /Fred Hughes-Don't bring me down /Sidney Barnes (not under a pseudonym) /Joanne Courcey-I got the power /Dells Cadet output with writing by Hestor/Wylie  /Minnie Eperson.....and that's just for starters!

Thanks

wilxy

[The Yank]

Bob Pruter interviewed Jo for Soul Survivor #5. In the article Jo specifically mentions "Casanova" by 

Ruby Andrews as being recorded in Detroit. He also states that when working with  Garland Green,

she recorded "all his records in Detroit, with Mike Terry arranging".  Other artists are mentioned but ,

no mention is made of where they were recorded.

 

 

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, Wilxy said:

Thanks for the feedback to date guys, most of which has been invaluable , having said that from a personal perspective collecting wise, there are still many grey areas! Whilst I appreciate all decent Soul Music from wherever, after several previous collections had to be sold for a variety of reasons from 1974 to date, my penchant for all things Detroit started when I was left with a large handful of my Motown favourites back at the beginning of 2001, and the rest is history so to speak, and my interest has grown from then onward......

Anyway as stated, I'm still in the "dark" with regard some of the non Detroit labels that utilised their artist(e)s within the Detroit  studio recording facilities  from a completist perspective ! i.e the Don Robey catalogue in total etc. The Arctic label (considering the Philly and Detroit collaborations), amongst several of the other "out of town labels" alas, if anyone can help I'll ask the following.......

Can anyone elaborate on the following artist(e) output with regard to specifically Detroit recordings......

Jo Armstead /Larry Banks-Don't pull away /Fred Hughes-Don't bring me down /Sidney Barnes (not under a pseudonym) /Joanne Courcey-I got the power /Dells Cadet output with writing by Hestor/Wylie  /Minnie Eperson.....and that's just for starters!

Thanks

wilxy

Regarding Fred Hughes' "Don't Bring Me Down".......  Hughes' producer with VJ Records was Chicago's Richard Parker, who ran VJ's L.A. production office, and was its main producer.  He recorded some of Hughes' sessions in L.A., and some in Chicago.  Parker had a Detroit connection in the mid 1960s, when he produced and recorded for Golden World/Ric Tic, I believe, as a part-time free-lance producer, rather than full time, while he still resided primarily in Chicago, but also, part-time in L.A.  I always thought that "Don't Bring Me Down was recorded in Chicago, with Mike Terry travelling there, rather than Parker bring Hughes to Terry, in Detroit.  However, Terry, in addition to periodically going to Chicago to record for Jo Armstead's and a few other Chicago labels, also worked heavily in Golden World Studios, on Ric Tic and Golden World sessions.  Still, I think the odds are a lot greater that Parker brought Terry to Chicago, perhaps along with a few Motown Funk Brothers moonlighting musicians, to record "Don't Bring Me Down" and a few other cuts.  I doubt that Terry flew to L.A. to record that for VJ.  But, Chicago was a relatively short auto drive (a few hours), which Terry and moonlighting Funk Brothers and other Detroiters, like Fred Bridges, The Brothers of soul, Mike Hanks, Ollie McLaughlin, The Four Hollidays, The Funk Brothers/Andantes/other Motown Musicians, Andre Williams, and many others often made.

Do you have documentation that that song was recorded in Detroit?

[Robbk]

IF Minnie Epperson recorded in Detroit during the mid '60s it would have been during the Joe Hunter/Don Robey deal.  But, her peacock recordings didn't sound to me like they were recorded in Detroit, and I didn't see any credits to Hunter on her 45s.  Do you have any documentation or quotes claiming she recorded in Detroit?

[Wilxy]

12 minutes ago, Robbk said:

IF Minnie Epperson recorded in Detroit during the mid '60s it would have been during the Joe Hunter/Don Robey deal.  But, her peacock recordings didn't sound to me like they were recorded in Detroit, and I didn't see any credits to Hunter on her 45s.  Do you have any documentation or quotes claiming she recorded in Detroit?

Hi Robb, 

Both referred to in A fine publication by Keith Rylatt re- "Groovesville USA-The Detroit Soul & R&B Index, albeit not directly mentioned as such both artist(e)s are referred to within, and I suppose the Mike Terry involvement with Fred Hughes, and Tony Hestor re Minnie Eperson, might link them both somewhat??

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, The Yank said:

Bob Pruter interviewed Jo for Soul Survivor #5. In the article Jo specifically mentions "Casanova" by 

Ruby Andrews as being recorded in Detroit. He also states that when working with  Garland Green,

she recorded "all his records in Detroit, with Mike Terry arranging".  Other artists are mentioned but ,

no mention is made of where they were recorded.

 

 

Nice to finally find out that ALL Garland Green's  cuts with Jo Armstead involved, were recorded in Detroit. 

[Robbk]

17 hours ago, Wilxy said:

Hi Robb, 

Both referred to in A fine publication by Keith Rylatt re- "Groovesville USA-The Detroit Soul & R&B Index, albeit not directly mentioned as such both artist(e)s are referred to within, and I suppose the Mike Terry involvement with Fred Hughes, and Tony Hestor re Minnie Eperson, might link them both somewhat??

Well then, my theories about Epperson and Fred Hughes are likely to be correct.  Epperson, as a Peacock artist MUST have been one of the singers sent to Detroit in The Joe Hunter-Don Robey production deal.  Mike Terry was the arranger on many of Hunter's sessions in Detroit, with the Pied Piper and Duke/Peacock/Backbeat/SureShot artists.  And Mike Terry's arranging Fred Hughes' "Don't Let Me Down" session was due to Richard Parker hiring him (but we still haven't established whether Parker brought Hughes to Detroit, or brought Terry to Chicago for the recording, or whether some of the recording work was handled in both cities).

[Wilxy]

TBH Robb, and very respectfully, I  should have perhaps been more clear, as I have  been mainly seeking the information relevant to individual releases, of the subject topic moreover from a very personal/selfish point of view, with regard a collecting perspective, and whilst the "broad brush" of labels is very helpful, it mainly reiterates my knowledge of some of the feedback thus far.......