The Carstairs - It really hurts me girl - Issue Vs demo?

[Soulsearch]

Dear All,

Just a quick one.

Apart from rarity and the obvious price any difference between the Pink Issue and the Demo, any difference in playback? - i read somewhere the Demo plays a little louder and you can hear more detail.

Does playing/buying a demo warrant the more than double price difference? Or not really?

Big Thankyou  

 

 

 

[Davlee]

Comparing my demo plays with more clarity than my issue copy.

Issue sounds like you have a cushion over the speaker. 

[Soulsearch]

1 minute ago, Davlee said:

Comparing my demo plays with more clarity than my issue copy.

Issue sounds like you have a cushion over the speaker. 

Thankyou,

That's sort of what i have heard. I am not a serious collector by any means (happy with re-issues) but a few though i would like to own - does the more than double price difference warrant the increase in quality though or should i be happy enough with the pink?   

[Davlee]

I was happy enough with my Pink issue , until I picked up a demo.

So yes.. go for it. Just check the condition first. This issue is Styrene

[Amsterdam Russ]

This thread from 2012 about the Carstairs white demo vs the red issue is worth revisiting...

 

[Soulsearch]

38 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

This thread from 2012 about the Carstairs white demo vs the red issue is worth revisiting...

 

Thankyou Russ?

Yes read that - Interesting reading and record certainly!, question really was more about sound quality difference between the two.  

[Amsterdam Russ]

12 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

...question really was more about sound quality difference between the two.  

Yes, I got that, but thought the thread might make interesting reading for people here generally. 

[Soulsearch]

Just now, Amsterdam Russ said:

Yes, I got that, but thought the thread might make interesting reading for people here generally. 

 

[Solidsoul]

On 03/11/2021 at 08:02, Soulsearch said:

Dear All,

Just a quick one.

Apart from rarity and the obvious price any difference between the Pink Issue and the Demo, any difference in playback? - i read somewhere the Demo plays a little louder and you can hear more detail.

Does playing/buying a demo warrant the more than double price difference? Or not really?

Big Thankyou  

 

 

 

Well if you want an true 1973 original, you need a Sterling stamped vinyl white demo.The original 1973 release only got to demo stage. There where no pink issue copies made at that time.

If you are happy with a legal reissue that was pressed up for the Northern Soul scene in 1975 by the label owner, buy a pink styrene issue.

Both play well, but the demo is high quality vinyl.

Edited April 1 by Solidsoul

[Soulsearch]

15 minutes ago, D9 Ktf said:

Well if you want an true 1973 original, you need a Sterling stamped vinyl white demo.

If you are happy with a legal reissue that was pressed up for the Northern Soul scene in 1975 by the label owner, buy a pink styrene issue.

Both play well, but the demo is high quality vinyl.

Thankyou  

Decisions decisions........................................For "this" particular record, slowly swaying towards the demo. certainly was a highly important record at the time - Very interesting  

[Soulsearch]

PS WOW just heard the flip ballad - gorgeous  

[Davlee]

never flipped it over..will do tonight.

[Soulsearch]

2 minutes ago, Davlee said:

never flipped it over..will do tonight.

This is of course subjective!! - VERY different  

[Blackpoolsoul]

The amount of boots I have had...... Little off topic but well worth a look

Manship does not pay me for advertising

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Soulsearch]

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

The amount of boots I have had...... Little off topic but well worth a look

Manship does not pay me for advertising

 

Thankyou for that  

Presuming since the Stamped STERLING was discussed (years ago) no change? ie no "new" boots to look out for since then? or is there??

 

[Blackpoolsoul]

5 hours ago, Soulsearch said:

Thankyou for that  

Presuming since the Stamped STERLING was discussed (years ago) no change? ie no "new" boots to look out for since then? or is there??

 

No Idea TBH

Edited November 5, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Soulsearch]

10 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

The amount of boots I have had...... Little off topic but well worth a look

Manship does not pay me for advertising

 

Are you sure?   

[Blackpoolsoul]

4 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Are you sure?   

100 % it's a personal thing from a lifetime ago but he does know his stuff 

[Soulsearch]

Just now, Blackpoolsoul said:

100 % it's a personal thing from a lifetime ago but he does know his stuff 

LOL No i meant your comment on advertising for him  Yes i too know John. and yes thankyou for that vid!

[Benji]

12 hours ago, Soulsearch said:

Thankyou for that  

Presuming since the Stamped STERLING was discussed (years ago) no change? ie no "new" boots to look out for since then? or is there??

 

At least three different WD boots are out there. But none of them are STERLING stamped.

[Soulsearch]

12 minutes ago, Benji said:

At least three different WD boots are out there. But none of them are STERLING stamped.

Thankyou Benji  ,

So stamped sterling only - i am aware of the written sterling, do you know the other? - surprises me because its not (as far as i am aware) a particularly expensive record?

[Benji]

Check Discogs for more details about the boots.

[Garethx]

1 hour ago, Soulsearch said:

Thankyou Benji  ,

So stamped sterling only - i am aware of the written sterling, do you know the other? - surprises me because its not (as far as i am aware) a particularly expensive record?

Depends what you mean by expensive. A true original WDJ is certainly worth upwards of £250 currently I would have thought. Only likely to go higher as per any established classic these days.

Edited November 5, 2021 by Garethx

[Geeselad]

Right, might have brought this up before but I'm convinced that the soul fox boot is an alt take. For a start it doesn't have that the first drum strike, as in the red coach release. The intro sounds slightly different, it's in the bass and use of snare drum in one section. I've compared the two, wonder how this came about? One of the few boots I've kept, its on the flip of, ' change your ways'. It t has Dean Courtney, then the Carstairs on the other side.  Anyone else compared the two?  

[Soulsearch]

42 minutes ago, Garethx said:

Depends what you mean by expensive. A true original WDJ is certainly worth upwards of £250 currently I would have thought. Only likely to go higher as per any established classic these days.

Thankyou Garethx,

Yes that's fine - who knows currently though? -prices for records seem to be going up weekly  

[Soulsearch]

25 minutes ago, Geeselad said:

Right, might have brought this up before but I'm convinced that the soul fox boot is an alt take. For a start it doesn't have that the first drum strike, as in the red coach release. The intro sounds slightly different, it's in the bass and use of snare drum in one section. I've compared the two, wonder how this came about? One of the few boots I've kept, its on the flip of, ' change your ways'. It t has Dean Courtney, then the Carstairs on the other side.  Anyone else compared the two?  

Thankyou Geeselad, LOL, no not me -you anorak  This record must be the most discussed/debated record in the history of any soul record ever? - the more i delve into it the more i find - Certainly a highly interesting record - i only heard it 18 months ago or so - seems like i am the last person ever to of heard it.

[Dave Pinch]

On 03/11/2021 at 08:02, Soulsearch said:

Dear All,

Just a quick one.

Apart from rarity and the obvious price any difference between the Pink Issue and the Demo, any difference in playback? - i read somewhere the Demo plays a little louder and you can hear more detail.

Does playing/buying a demo warrant the more than double price difference? Or not really?

Big Thankyou  

 

 

 

the original demo is £350 now. the pink issue was pressed 18 months later and is £100

[Solidsoul]

On 06/11/2021 at 06:44, Dave Pinch said:

the original demo is £350 now. the pink issue was pressed 18 months later and is £100

That pink reissue has the number 802 on it. That is wrong. That's the number that was used when Red Coach was distributed by GRT Chess and is on the original white demo. No stock copies were made.

When Red Coach(Red Lite) repressed it for Global records in Manchester they were up to about release number 808. But they stuck the old 802 number on it and that has made it look like it was the issue to the white demo.

Gene Redd ran three different labels using the Red Coach name. 

The first Red Coach label had Appointments on it.

The second Red Coach label had two releases distributed by GRT Chess. 801 and 802, the Carstairs release. 

The third Red Coach label was distributed by Red Lite and that had many releases on it.

This third label started on number 803 onwards. They used a plain red label with black lettering for releases 803 to 806 then went back to the old Chess GRT pink label design.  So sometime later, after 806, is when they did the special pink label press of the Carstairs for export to the UK market. 

Global records in Manchester paid Gene Redd, the label owner, to press a 1000 pink issue copies to sell to the UK Northern Soul scene. Because it was a monster sound in 1974/75 but only existed on white demo copies from 1973.

 

Edited April 1 by Solidsoul

[Neil Austin]

On 03/11/2021 at 08:02, Soulsearch said:

Dear All,

Just a quick one.

Apart from rarity and the obvious price any difference between the Pink Issue and the Demo, any difference in playback? - i read somewhere the Demo plays a little louder and you can hear more detail.

Does playing/buying a demo warrant the more than double price difference? Or not really?

Big Thankyou  

 

 

 

Hi I have had both deon and pink copy,

i found there was no real difference, I currently have a pink copy , which is well built and sounds great .

the demo has a moulded edge and sterling  stamp on the run out .

there are a few booted promos so check

the stamp 

good luck 

 

Just now, Neil Austin said:

Hi I have had both deon and pink copy,

i found there was no real difference, I currently have a pink copy , which is well built and sounds great .

the demo has a moulded edge and sterling  stamp on the run out .

there are a few booted promos so check

the stamp 

good luck 

 

 

Just now, Neil Austin said:

Hi I have had both deon and pink copy,

i found there was no real difference, I currently have a pink copy , which is well built and sounds great .

the demo has a moulded edge and sterling  stamp on the run out .

there are a few booted promos so check

the stamp 

good luck 

 

Demo , fat finger typo

[Soulsearch]

17 minutes ago, Neil Austin said:

Hi I have had both deon and pink copy,

i found there was no real difference, I currently have a pink copy , which is well built and sounds great .

the demo has a moulded edge and sterling  stamp on the run out .

there are a few booted promos so check

the stamp 

good luck 

 

 

Demo , fat finger typo

Thanks Neil,

The replies are going to be biased to whom ever has which copy LOL - i need to hear back to back, but currently not too bothered as long as i do not get a boot  

[Chalky]

16 hours ago, Soulsearch said:

Thankyou Benji  ,

So stamped sterling only - i am aware of the written sterling, do you know the other? - surprises me because its not (as far as i am aware) a particularly expensive record?

People have it all wrong to assume it is better to bootleg an expensive record.  It makes more sense to boot a cheaper not so expensive one that isn a good seller as it raises less suspicion, at first anyway.  Better sellers will attract more buyers.  Many Motown records were counterfeited BITD, even Gordy's ex wife spent a night in jail.  Many of these counterfeits are in collections with people unaware.

[Soulsearch]

2 hours ago, Chalky said:

People have it all wrong to assume it is better to bootleg an expensive record.  It makes more sense to boot a cheaper not so expensive one that isn a good seller as it raises less suspicion, at first anyway.  Better sellers will attract more buyers.  Many Motown records were counterfeited BITD, even Gordy's ex wife spent a night in jail.  Many of these counterfeits are in collections with people unaware.

Good point - makes total sense

[Cover-up]

On 05/11/2021 at 23:52, Geeselad said:

Right, might have brought this up before but I'm convinced that the soul fox boot is an alt take. For a start it doesn't have that the first drum strike, as in the red coach release. The intro sounds slightly different, it's in the bass and use of snare drum in one section. I've compared the two, wonder how this came about? One of the few boots I've kept, its on the flip of, ' change your ways'. It t has Dean Courtney, then the Carstairs on the other side.  Anyone else compared the two?  

The Inferno re-issue from 1979 had two Tom Moulton mixes on it - is it possible the Soul Fox uses one of those?

 

 

[Geeselad]

49 minutes ago, cover-up said:

The Inferno re-issue from 1979 had two Tom Moulton mixes on it - is it possible the Soul Fox uses one of those?

 

 

Think your right there, thought it had been pressed, officially elsewhere.  

[Soulsearch]

17 hours ago, Geeselad said:

Think your right there, thought it had been pressed, officially elsewhere.  

Quite like the Moulton remix - never really listened to it.

[Cover-up]

2 hours ago, Soulsearch said:

Quite like the Moulton remix - never really listened to it.

It’s quite a subtle re-work - apparently it was his very first remix...

[Soulsearch]

13 minutes ago, cover-up said:

It’s quite a subtle re-work - apparently it was his very first remix...

Hi Cover-up,

Nice fact, and Yes VERY subtle but enough i think - Mainly the extra drum beats esp at the start. I may not go for the original after all, think i may be happy with the "original" remix copy  

[Tlscapital]

13 hours ago, Soulsearch said:

Hi Cover-up,

Nice fact, and Yes VERY subtle but enough i think - Mainly the extra drum beats esp at the start. I may not go for the original after all, think i may be happy with the "original" remix copy  

Had the pink copy for peanuts and turned down the 'pricier' white demo as I was happy enough with it. Not feeling the need to own a better playing copy (that which I wasn't aware of back then). The emergency of trivial choices with what records I must/could afford to bring home in priority left me unaware of that all that time.

Until one day to close a trade deal I manage to get a white real deal copy. The pink copy instanytly went to a new home and I started to play it like never before. Both sides this time But I'm a demanding man when it comes to playback rendition. The Tom-Tom remix makes it totaly something else. Not my cup at all FWIW...

[Soulsearch]

Yep, ballad doesn't get a look in??? - brilliant track!! - forgot about that? OK, remix it is and then another copy which at least has the B side on the flip   - gets really annoying though!!!

[Soulsearch]

On 06/11/2021 at 12:20, D9 Ktf said:

That pink reissue has the number 802 on it. That is wrong. That's the number that was used when Red Coach was distributed by GRT Chess and is on the original white demo. No stock copies were made.

When Red Coach repressed it for Global records in Manchester they were up to about release number 808. But they stuck the old 802 number on it and that has made it look like it was the issue to the white demo.

Gene Redd ran three different labels using the Red Coach name. 

The first one was the one with The Appointments on it.

The second one had two releases distributed by GRT Chess. 801 and 802, the Carstairs release. 

The third Red Coach label was distributed by Red Lite.

This third label started on number 803 onwards. They used a plain red label with black lettering for releases 803 to 806 then went back to the old Chess GRT pink label design.  So sometime later, after 806, is when they did the special pink label press of the Carstairs for the UK market.

 

Thankyou D9 Ktf  GOSH, my head hurts.............................................................................  

[Kesalocasoul]

Following the various Carstairs threads, here are the earliest references I can find in B&S: #128 p18 (February 1974) - Sale, Mecca; and then in #135 p17 (May 1974) - Radio Piccadilly, both by Frank Elson.  Ian Levine made no mention in his column in Black Music, which began at the start of that year, but Tony Cummings did in his much-discussed NS article in BM June 1974, following a visit to Whitchurch.

Wigan Casino began listing the Carstairs in its adverts in B&S #131 (March 1974), but made no mention of a particular track.

 

  

[Soulsearch]

1 hour ago, Kesalocasoul said:

Following the various Carstairs threads, here are the earliest references I can find in B&S: #128 p18 (February 1974) - Sale, Mecca; and then in #135 p17 (May 1974) - Radio Piccadilly, both by Frank Elson.  Ian Levine made no mention in his column in Black Music, which began at the start of that year, but Tony Cummings did in his much-discussed NS article in BM June 1974, following a visit to Whitchurch.

Wigan Casino began listing the Carstairs in its adverts in B&S #131 (March 1974), but made no mention of a particular track.

 

  

Thankyou for that, Great stuff - Bit Jealous though that you kept all those mags - wish id kept all mine  

[Stevecee]

On 03/11/2021 at 10:53, Solidsoul said:

Well if you want an true 1973 original, you need a Sterling stamped vinyl white demo.

I always thought this was so, but Angloamerican have made comments on Discogs which suggest otherwise, could it be that people have scratched in sterling on the other white boot showing on Discogs that has diff run out groove details and have muddied the waters or are Anglo wrong.

https://www.discogs.com/release/5903109-The-Carstairs-It-Really-Hurts-Me-Girl

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Stevecee

[Tlscapital]

35 minutes ago, Stevecee said:

...Angloamerican have made comments on Discogs which suggest otherwise...

https://www.discogs.com/release/5903109-The-Carstairs-It-Really-Hurts-Me-Girl

No it states ; Vinyl, 7", 45 RPM, Promo, Reissue, Unofficial Release

[Solidsoul]

The original white demo has a machine stamped Sterling in the run out groove. 

The white demo boot could easily have had Sterling scratched in with a sharp pointed tool.  

 

[Dave Pinch]

1 hour ago, Solidsoul said:

The original white demo has a machine stamped Sterling in the run out groove. 

The white demo boot could easily have had Sterling scratched in with a sharp pointed tool.  

 

when martin kopell found  the stock of these  there was a mixture of stamped and unstamped copies.. the vinyl looked the same on them and all had great sound quality.. the bootleg has poorer sound quality as far as i remember

the stock ended up at anglo and andy dyson had copies of both

i appreciate the guys would want stamped copies particularly today when splashing the cash to be on the safe side but i would say that theres original copies not machine stamped out there

Edited March 21, 2023 by Dave Pinch
spelling

[Dave Pinch]

1 hour ago, Tlscapital said:

No it states ; Vinyl, 7", 45 RPM, Promo, Reissue, Unofficial Release

thats because somebody changed it back tim.. as you know anybody can go on discogs and edit stuff

[Solidsoul]

On 21/03/2023 at 14:27, Dave Pinch said:

when martin kopell found  the stock of these  there was a mixture of stamped and unstamped copies.. the vinyl looked the same on them and all had great sound quality.. the bootleg has poorer sound quality as far as i remember

the stock ended up at anglo and andy dyson had copies of both

i appreciate the guys would want stamped copies particularly today when splashing the cash to be on the safe side but i would say that theres original copies not machine stamped out there

All the original demos I saw in the mid 1970's were Sterling stamped. The good looking bootleg demo was not stamped. 

I once found multiple copies of Bobby Guitar Woods on Colt in the same box as bootleg copies. Gold originals mixed with those light green coloured bootlegs. The commercial dealer had both and had just lumped them altogether for next to nothing!

Edited April 1 by Solidsoul

[Wheelsville1]

I would go for a vinyl over styrene press every time,the sound quality always seems to be better.A typical example is The Mighty Lovers -Mighty Lover as appose to  The Ideals.

[Tlscapital]

2 hours ago, Dave Pinch said:

thats because somebody changed it back tim.. as you know anybody can go on discogs and edit stuff

OK Dave I did not realized that this was such an "old" post... And changes has been made since. But OK I get it now. And I also read about your non machined stamp likely original white label copies. Did they have the same printed labels or could they have been from another pressing plant ?

Open source datcogs ? Not anymore. I've even stop submitting corrections and additions on datcogs (and I've heard other's similar misadventures) as the last ones had to go through some sort of committee of the "wise" but my submissions didn't get a majority vote and so was letted down.

Full of **** working organization that is datcogs nowadays. I mean even more so through the 'C-word' lockdown where they benefited from the online consumerist consumption and made more even changes to become evil as the Bay. I now participate much more willingly to 45cat.com. Cheers, Tim

Edited March 21, 2023 by Tlscapital