Northern Soul - REALLY!!!

[Soulsearch]

40 minutes ago, Chalky said:

No it's classed as shite...

Bit harsh?......................................take a listen to Grady Tate Lady Love - Defo not IMHO  

1 minute ago, Chalky said:

I played Charles Johnson in my sets mid to late 80s as did others then and before me.

One of my all time faves, top five i reckon - Sheer class Northern or Modern  

[Simon T]

isn't NS a 'brand' to some degree nowadays? One which the populous in general can associate in some way?

i.e. BBC news story this week, if then words were there, people wouldn't necessarily take any notice of the story?.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-birmingham-59064957

[Chalky]

11 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Bit harsh?......................................take a listen to Grady Tate Lady Love - Defo not IMHO  

as I said 

[Soulsearch]

9 minutes ago, Simon T said:

isn't NS a 'brand' to some degree nowadays? One which the populous in general can associate in some way?

i.e. BBC news story this week, if then words were there, people wouldn't necessarily take any notice of the story?.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-birmingham-59064957

Yes i suppose it is, but there are enough "NS" records out there to keep "NS" as "NS" without using records which are nowhere near "NS" records - if that makes any sense?  we still need categories to differentiate genres of soul - some will disagree.

As i said earlier, i think from now on i am just going to say "soul" - its become far too generalised IMO   

10 minutes ago, Chalky said:

as I said 

Whatever!!  

[Simon T]

It's pity more people on the NS scene don't suffer from hyperthymesia

 

(Hyperthymesia is a condition that leads people to be able to remember an abnormally large number of their life experiences in vivid detail. It is extraordinarily rare, with only about 60 people in the world having been diagnosed with the condition as of 2021.)

Apparently it would be more common, but it is instantly cancelled out by the ingestion of amphetamine type drugs!

[Soulsearch]

2 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Yes i suppose it is, but there are enough "NS" records out there to keep "NS" as "NS" without using records which are nowhere near "NS" records - if that makes any sense?  we still need categories to differentiate genres of soul - some will disagree.

As i said earlier, i think from now on i am just going to say "soul" - its become far too generalised IMO   

Whatever!!  

PS How do i do other faces on here rather than smileys? - not a joke question  

[Soulsearch]

1 minute ago, Simon T said:

It's pity more people on the NS scene don't suffer from hyperthymesia

 

(Hyperthymesia is a condition that leads people to be able to remember an abnormally large number of their life experiences in vivid detail. It is extraordinarily rare, with only about 60 people in the world having been diagnosed with the condition as of 2021.)

Apparently it would be more common, but it is instantly cancelled out by the ingestion of amphetamine type drugs!

I don't get it but it sounds like an intelligent comment  

[Soulsearch]

6 minutes ago, Simon T said:

It's pity more people on the NS scene don't suffer from hyperthymesia

 

(Hyperthymesia is a condition that leads people to be able to remember an abnormally large number of their life experiences in vivid detail. It is extraordinarily rare, with only about 60 people in the world having been diagnosed with the condition as of 2021.)

Apparently it would be more common, but it is instantly cancelled out by the ingestion of amphetamine type drugs!

OK, think i understand  LOL

[Mark4767]

charles johnson , clifton hall massive & the best fiver ive spent,still play it out,

[Winsford Soul]

4 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

OK, think i understand  LOL

It's all as clear as mud.

[Soulsearch]

2 minutes ago, Mark4767 said:

charles johnson , clifton hall massive & the best fiver ive spent,still play it out,

I will offer you ten times what you paid for it, go on you know it makes sense  PM me........................................................

[Simon T]

6 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

OK, think i understand  LOL

I 'suffer' from a very, very, very mild form of it and a little of eidetic memory too.  Maybe i should have partook in some of Billy from Stoke's merchandise at Stafford!

[Chalky]

13 hours ago, Soulsearch said:

Me neither and i agree, but i have been informed by some Northern Folks if you read through that the rest of the opinions/answers that the Charles Johnson was indeed a "classic" Northern record played in quite a few of the "northern" rooms. That is what confuses me?.

I think though i will call it a day on this topic as nobody really seems to have a definitive  answer.

For me, it has become very blurred recently, but i have been out of the scene really for a good 25-30 years (still obviously listened to my records). I think the "soul" scene in general has changed beyond recognition. Prices for records too GOSH!!!

I shall just be into "soul"!

Thankyou    

PS The Charles Johnson though in anyone's book is truly a gem  regardless of taste.

Why is it confusing?  The record in question was played in just about every Northern Soul venue I attended.  It was played before modern soul was a thing.  There is nothing blurred about it.  You are blurring this yourself by saying its not one thing but the other when in fact it is both.  It was played in one room venues where soul music (and other genres) right across the board was played.  Wigan, Clifton Hall as already said, Stafford, Oddfellows and just about every other all-nighter going back in the 80s.  Places like Wigan, Stafford and Clifton Hall, what was to become Modern Soul (70s and 80s) happily co-existed alongside 60s, Djs mixed it up.  When I played it mid to late 80s it was an oldie.

Of course the scene has changed, it has constantly evolved since day 1.  Tastes change, different tempos find favour, different genres find favour.  Others fall out of favour, it is constantly changing, not always for the better IMO.

As for Rita Wright, I can't say I've heard it at a Northern SOul night, maybe at a chill out.  What context was it described as Northern, as sale?  If so it has to be taken with a pinch of salt as dealers use the term to get it onto search pages etc.

You seem to do nothing but analyse and over think far to much, maybe you should just take some time out and enjoy the music rather than be so critical or analytic?

Edited October 30, 2021 by Chalky

[Simon T]

10 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Why isn it confusing?  The record in question was played in just about every Northern Soul venue I attended.  It was played before modern soul was a thing.  There is nothing blurred about it.  You are blurring this yourself by saying its not one thing but the other when in fact it is both.  It was played in one room venues where soul music (and other genres) right across the board was played.  Clifton Hall as already said, Stafford, Oddfellows and just about every other all-nighter going back in the 80s.  Places like Wigan, Stafford and Clifton Hall, what was to become Modern Soul (70s and 80s) happily co-existed alongside 60s, Djs mixed it up.  When I played it mid to late 80s it was an oldie.

Of course the scene has changed, it has constantly evolved since day 1.  Tastes change, different tempos find favour, different genres find favour.  Others fall out of favour, it is constantly changing, not always for the better IMO.

As for Rita Wright, I can't say I've heard it at a Northern SOul night, maybe at a chill out.  What context was it described as Northern, as sale?  If so it has to be taken with a pinch of salt as dealers use the term to get it onto search pages etc.

You seem to do nothing but analyse and over think far to much, maybe you should just take some time out and enjoy the music rather than be so critical or analytic?

Correct Karl. Many record like CJ were imported by JA within months of their release. Some to specifically sell to Japan for the 'sweet soul' side. Bought by visitors to West Winch and the other side played out at 'northern soul' events, hence classified as a NS record. Sam Fletcher played on the Belgian Popcorn scene, played in the UK, and became a NS record.

[Soulsearch]

11 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Why isn it confusing?  The record in question was played in just about every Northern Soul venue I attended.  It was played before modern soul was a thing.  There is nothing blurred about it.  You are blurring this yourself by saying its not one thing but the other when in fact it is both.  It was played in one room venues where soul music (and other genres) right across the board was played.  Clifton Hall as already said, Stafford, Oddfellows and just about every other all-nighter going back in the 80s.  Places like Wigan, Stafford and Clifton Hall, what was to become Modern Soul (70s and 80s) happily co-existed alongside 60s, Djs mixed it up.  When I played it mid to late 80s it was an oldie.

Of course the scene has changed, it has constantly evolved since day 1.  Tastes change, different tempos find favour, different genres find favour.  Others fall out of favour, it is constantly changing, not always for the better IMO.

As for Rita Wright, I can't say I've heard it at a Northern SOul night, maybe at a chill out.  What context was it described as Northern, as sale?  If so it has to be taken with a pinch of salt as dealers use the term to get it onto search pages etc.

You seem to do nothing but analyse and over think far to much, maybe you should just take some time out and enjoy the music rather than be so critical or analytic?

No, not over analysing anything or being at all critical? -  surely this is what a forum is for, Questions/answers, debate, opinions/discussions etc.

My Charles Johnson question was answered by a long term "Northern" Venue Goer and DJ who has tells me (on this forum) that Charles Johnson was and never has been played in any "Northern" venue - i was simply responding to his comment.

If it upsets you then maybe just ignore it and don't respond - its your choice? - If you read my original forum question, i think it's a  clear enough query?.

Perhaps this "friendly" debate/Topic should be put to bed now.

Thankyou  

[Happy Feet]

If my memory serves me right C.J. was possibly played by my old friend Keith Minshull RIP ,if not first he got behind it and if that's not proof enough , Northern Soul, a long time ago 1980 ish , he had a good ear for a tune lol 

[Merve]

6 hours ago, Soulsearch said:

You missed "two-step" and "rare groove"   Your point is really my point, they "did" have genres, now to me, it seems like only one which is out there is "Northern"  -Most of it.

Titty Shaker....WTF is that ? We don't know, they do. Sums up why they describe records as Northern Soul - They don't get it like we don't get them ?

[Merve]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

 

As for Rita Wright, I can't say I've heard it at a Northern SOul night, maybe at a chill out.  What context was it described as Northern, as sale?  If so it has to be taken with a pinch of salt as dealers use the term to get it onto search pages etc.

 

I've heard it played out (once) at Bedford Esquires - As you say a chill out record. 

[Steve G]

Charles Johnson was played as a newish release at Wigan (RS) and was pretty popular at the time throughout the country. Perhaps some of you guys had left the scene by then? 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Steve G

[Blackpoolsoul]

8 hours ago, Simon T said:

Correct Karl. Many record like CJ were imported by JA within months of their release. Some to specifically sell to Japan for the 'sweet soul' side. Bought by visitors to West Winch and the other side played out at 'northern soul' events, hence classified as a NS record. Sam Fletcher played on the Belgian Popcorn scene, played in the UK, and became a NS record.

Careful now, before some people state that the Belgian Popcorn Scene is a "genre" too. I wonder if they have stickers on the back of their cars stating

"Belgian Popcorn Is A Way Of Life"

[Chalky]

10 hours ago, Soulsearch said:

No, not over analysing anything or being at all critical? -  surely this is what a forum is for, Questions/answers, debate, opinions/discussions etc.

My Charles Johnson question was answered by a long term "Northern" Venue Goer and DJ who has tells me (on this forum) that Charles Johnson was and never has been played in any "Northern" venue - i was simply responding to his comment.

If it upsets you then maybe just ignore it and don't respond - its your choice? - If you read my original forum question, i think it's a  clear enough query?.

Perhaps this "friendly" debate/Topic should be put to bed now.

Thankyou  

Plenty of long term venue goers have told you otherwise, is their opinion not valid?  

It has been a popular spin since 1980, as said John Anderson imported them from Henry Stone and could be got for £1.50 or so.  I think 40 years of plays qualify it as a Northern Soul record don't you think?

Neither am I upset? Why would I be?

Edited October 30, 2021 by Chalky

[Steve G]

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Careful now, before some people state that the Belgian Popcorn Scene is a "genre" too. I wonder if they have stickers on the back of their cars stating

"Belgian Popcorn Is A Way Of Life"

Isn't popcorn a genre? Having met a few people connected with that scene, they would tell you it most definitely was, just as much as northern was here (only less people on the Belgian scene).

[Blackpoolsoul]

6 minutes ago, Steve G said:

Isn't popcorn a genre? Having met a few people connected with that scene, they would tell you it most definitely was, just as much as northern was here (only less people on the Belgian scene).

No.......scene

Belgium's 'Popcorn': the last underground music scene in Europe

https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/feb/05/belgium-popcorn-underground-music-scene-europe-northern-soul

Edited October 30, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Blackpoolsoul]

6 hours ago, Steve G said:

Charles Johnson was played as a newish release at Wigan (RS) and was pretty popular at the time throughout the country. Perhaps some of you guys had left the scene by then? 

Spot on

Thread here

 

[Shinehead]

Charles Johnson , great record back in the day and played everywhere as I remember but it sounds so insipid now to my cloth ears .

 

 

[Solidsoul]

1 hour ago, Steve G said:

Isn't popcorn a genre? Having met a few people connected with that scene, they would tell you it most definitely was, just as much as northern was here (only less people on the Belgian scene).

Yes it's a "style or category of music," hence it's genre.

It's just some people will not accept the dictionary's explanation. They think they know better!

[Chalky]

14 minutes ago, D9 Ktf said:

Yes it's a "style or category of music," hence it's genre.

It's just some people will not accept the dictionary's explanation. They think they know better!

It’s not a style or genre, it’s is various styles or genres that make up a scene, just like Northern. 
 

But you think different and I guess we will agree to disagree. 

[Markw]

Northern Soul is a state of mind. Sure, it was once a definitive style of soul music, but 50 years of changing styles and attitudes has shifted that. If you know, you know. If you don't, you don't.

Anyway, who gives a shit? As long as the music's good and it floats your boat. So much choice out there, just pay your money and take your choice.

[Geeselad]

19 hours ago, Shinehead said:

No it's jazz funk

What about night of the wolf then?

[Soulman58]

12 minutes ago, Markw said:

Northern Soul is a state of mind. Sure, it was once a definitive style of soul music, but 50 years of changing styles and attitudes has shifted that. If you know, you know. If you don't, you don't.

Anyway, who gives a shit? As long as the music's good and it floats your boat. So much choice out there, just pay your money and take your

Totally agree.  As a fellow Southerner, I would advise its not worth trying to work it out.  Just remember it is a broad church including a wide congregation of DJs and punters with strong views and  wide selection of tunes, some of which, based upon your posts, you will love, some you will hate.  Which is pretty much the view of all those who have tried to explain the strange world of northern soul.  A term they are very protective of.  

 

[Philt]

Not only am I not protective of it, on the very rare occasion anyone asks, I do everything I can to disassociate myself from the 21st C notion of “northern soul.” (Those same people might even call you a “northernsouler”)

I just love black music and if you can dance to it that’s a bonus 

[Soulman58]

19 minutes ago, Philt said:

Not only am I not protective of it, on the very rare occasion anyone asks, I do everything I can to disassociate myself from the 21st C notion of “northern soul.” (Those same people might even call you a “northernsouler”)

I just love black music and if you can dance to it that’s a bonus 

Hi Phil,

I'd say we're both Soul fans then, which is all i've ever considered myself. 

Neil

[Tlscapital]

22 hours ago, Steve G said:

Isn't popcorn a genre? Having met a few people connected with that scene, they would tell you it most definitely was, just as much as northern was here (only less people on the Belgian scene).

Just as much as northern soul was/is going from soul, pop, garage, funk, R'n'R... Popcorn music "genres" goes from 'groove' (instrumentals like 'hole in the wall') to soul, country, pop, latin, exotica, ska (instrumlentals only (WTF)) french 'yé-yé'... But it was/is a scene with venues, dee-jays, punters, collectors, dancers, drugs and thieves... No Sousan but Salamone.

The popcorn is a dance for two. Not a 'music' genre as such. Like rock'N'roll but in slow-motion. Pitching the records to suit the dancers brought that specific two-time beat (like Ben E King 'stand by me') to be made that popcorn "genre". Belgium is small. England is big ! In proportion it was an 'important' underground scene here that was also commercially abused.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Tlscapital

[Blackpoolsoul]

1 hour ago, Geeselad said:

What about night of the wolf then?

Italian ....."Tema Del Lupo" a music theme (funk, disco)

[Soulsearch]

3 hours ago, Chalky said:

Plenty of long term venue goers have told you otherwise, is their opinion not valid?  

It has been a popular spin since 1980, as said John Anderson imported them from Henry Stone and could be got for £1.50 or so.  I think 40 years of plays qualify it as a Northern Soul record don't you think?

Neither am I upset? Why would I be?

Yes, ALL opinions are valid and i've never once said in any of my responses they are not? - The intention of my post was never to upset anyone - obviously me being out of "the "soul" seen for a good 25 years or so has obviously stirred up a topic that is obviously a highly passionate subject for some - really wish i hadn't of bothered.

PS FYI Yes, Rita Wright was on a Northern Soul sales site.

[Soulsearch]

1 hour ago, Soulman58 said:

Totally agree.  As a fellow Southerner, I would advise its not worth trying to work it out.  Just remember it is a broad church including a wide congregation of DJs and punters with strong views and  wide selection of tunes, some of which, based upon your posts, you will love, some you will hate.  Which is pretty much the view of all those who have tried to explain the strange world of northern soul.  A term they are very protective of.  

 

Yes, i see this now - didn't mean to open a can of worms though!!  LOL

[Julianb]

Having read this thread, I losing the will to live!☹

[Soulsearch]

Yep, could have been an interesting and sensible debate which "was" its intention - but its not  

[Baldsoulie]

To me it is simple, Northern Soul is what makes me get of my backside and get on the dance floor at a beat faster than two stepping.   That would exclude some records that others seem to think to fit the bill because it was played by a big name DJ.

[Tlscapital]

23 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Careful now, before some people state that the Belgian Popcorn Scene is a "genre" too. I wonder if they have stickers on the back of their cars stating

"Belgian Popcorn Is A Way Of Life"

I believe not. Am too young to know any better and was weary of most of them 'popcorn' people back then as  their music was  clearly out of any coherence to me back then to have all the differtent stories from the 7T's. It still is all too weird for my liking but I now have my wise knowledge to reassure me as to what my ears are witnessing and argue with them people in confidence. Finally. An have my few better 'popcorn' friend I believe.

You had 'popcorn' stickers back then. Promoting the club. But no jackets or sport bags patches. The 'a way of life' thing makes me gringe some. Ever since. Even as a teen skinhead. Nothing can dictate my state of mind, nor what I eat or I don't know what. Even though like a 'community' who gathered free willingly with 'rites' in devotion or dedication, people got to meet the same faces over an over again with complicity in competition.

Such a feeling of belonging to something special and/or peculiar should embrace most teens in rebelion without a cause. For a while if ever. But I know it's not always the case... Bless !

Edited October 31, 2021 by Tlscapital

[Soulsearch]

3 hours ago, Shinehead said:

Charles Johnson , great record back in the day and played everywhere as I remember but it sounds so insipid now to my cloth ears .

 

 

I went off it for a good long while, then one day i put on my headphones and turned up the base - Loved it all over again  Timeless and classy IMO

[Soulsearch]

I think I may post a new question on the forum:

Is Charles Johnson - Never had a love a Northern or Modern spin?

One reply cant claim both! LOL LOL LOL LOL  

[Hooker1951]

1 hour ago, Soulsearch said:

I think I may post a new question on the forum:

Is Charles Johnson - Never had a love a Northern or Modern spin?

One reply cant claim both! LOL LOL LOL LOL  

You can claim what you want on here doesn’t make it true,,I never said Charles Johnson was not played at Northern S venues I said I had never heard it played where I was, or it didn’t make any impression on me to remember it, but it was obviously played out because some of the Stalwarts on here like Karl have said they played it, To my ears it is modern but if people like it So What? I think you need to broaden your horizon and look past Charles Johnson you just might be pleasantly surprised LoL

,Stay Safe

ML

[Leicester Boy]

1 hour ago, Soulsearch said:

I think I may post a new question on the forum:

Is Charles Johnson - Never had a love a Northern or Modern spin?

One reply cant claim both! LOL LOL LOL LOL  

Its a northern spin that sounds modern. Hope thats helpful.

[Soulsearch]

3 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

You can claim what you want on here doesn’t make it true,,I never said Charles Johnson was not played at Northern S venues I said I had never heard it played where I was, or it didn’t make any impression on me to remember it, but it was obviously played out because some of the Stalwarts on here like Karl have said they played it, To my ears it is modern but if people like it So What? I think you need to broaden your horizon and look past Charles Johnson you just might be pleasantly surprised LoL

,Stay Safe

ML

Yes you did, and i apologise!!  i misread it. BTW i am not the one who latched on to CJ (mentioned yes), but others did hence my very flippant "tongue in cheek" reply.

I WILL say however, that my original post was "just" a post - i never ever asked who played what first - For me i really do not care!!! It was simply the "blurred" genres of records/music out there after a long break.

Just to add also i am now 42, I was buying "soul" records" from the age of 14!! - so i am aware there are more records out there than CJ!! Thanks for your advice anyhow  

Safer posting on a Knitting Forum TBH

[Soulsearch]

On my VERY LAST note on this ??debate?? - some comments and opinions were very interesting - Thankyou to those.

I played Alex Brown - Not responsible in out local pub when i was two years old in South London -  Therefore i am 100% claiming that this record is a true "Modern" soul spin - Never Ever "Northern"  

THE END.

[Blackpoolsoul]

17 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

On my VERY LAST note on this ??debate?? - some comments and opinions were very interesting - Thankyou to those.

I played Alex Brown - Not responsible in out local pub when i was two years old in South London -  Therefore i am 100% claiming that this record is a true "Modern" soul spin - Never Ever "Northern"  

THE END.

At 2 years old you had great taste in music

Sadly you are incorrect though, as it is classed as a "crossover" record on the Northern Soul Scene

[Soulsearch]

20 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

At 2 years old you had great taste in music

Sadly you are incorrect though, as it is classed as a "crossover" record on the Northern Soul Scene

Yes i had good taste!

No my friend, you are incorrect - it IS actually "Modern" only  

[The Yank]

Why couldn't  Charles Johnson be both ?

    If a record like Diana Ross's "Love Hangover" hit number 1 on the U.S.  Pop, R& B and Disco charts, then would you qualify it as a Pop record, and R & B record or a Disco record ? 

 

[Soulsearch]

8 minutes ago, The Yank said:

Why couldn't  Charles Johnson be both ?

    If a record like Diana Ross's "Love Hangover" hit number 1 on the U.S.  Pop, R& B and Disco charts, then would you qualify it as a Pop record, and R & B record or a Disco record ? 

 

I NEVER said it couldn't be?

If anybody re reads my post again PROPERLY that was not my question? In a "nutshell" my question related to when or why did genres become blurred and that the term "Northern Soul" seems to have become a bit overused in the imaginations of some - especially recently. IMO quite a relevant question - obviously not  

If i have obviously written my question that appears to be misunderstood then i apologise. Profusely!!!  

It was NOT an "argument", it was a valid point/question/debate/opinions/views/Whatever.

END END END