Northern Soul - REALLY!!!

[Soulsearch]

Dear All,

The term "Northern" soul appears to relate to almost all soul records and wondering why is this.

Yes I am a true Southerner, often frequenting venues during the late 80s/early 90s and there was always a pretty clear distinction between the "Northern" records/soul scene and the "southern" Modern soul records/scene yes including the "rare groove" scene, but i always knew a northern soul record from other soul genres - it was pretty easy to tell.

Everywhere i look now its "Northern " soul, recently three off the top of my head examples out of hundreds i have seen recently are: Charles Johnson - Never had a love like this described as a "Northern Classic" - was it really? (i am sure it wasn't), Vise - Baby i love you (played in almost all the modern Southern soul rooms at the time of discovery) and finally Rita Wright - touch me take me described as a "Northern Monster - so NOT Northern its practically South Pole.

 

Long Question: Are ALL (or most) soul records now classed as "Northern" regardless of anything? or because the term "Northern Soul" has become a household name, is it purely devised that not clued up newbie collectors don't/cant differentiate between types of soul and therefore makes it easier to sell a record that has the word "Northern" in it?

I don't like to pigeon hole or anything and defo not a North/South divide thing, just keen on any thoughts/responses.

Thanks for reading  

 

 

[Jez Jones]

Actually I'm not sure there is an appetite to categorise anymore esp after the pandemic.....yes its a 'fractured' scene in genre description and attendee expectations....I think it will be a long long time before the 'scene' gets de-constructed to the nth degree and then follows the de construction.....the soul police are thin on the ground ....Folks know what they like and know where to find it ......without following the 'rulebook'

This is only a personal observation...personally cram as many different 'genres' in as you want for me ....without resorting to wyoming speed garage or Columbian horn pipe

[Petesi]

My Pennies worth.

Marketing Ploy!... It`s the in vogue term at the moment, and will probably help sales or in the case of venues/clubs attract customers .

There is also a big difference between the hard northern classic stuff played up north to the more mixed mellow/ mid tempo and in some cases relatively modern plays down south. Just general comment on the last, as I go to a couple of clubs in the south that do play a good number of classic northern " oldies"  every time.

 

 

 

[Soulsearch]

2 minutes ago, Jez Jones said:

Actually I'm not sure there is an appetite to categorise anymore esp after the pandemic.....yes its a 'fractured' scene in genre description and attendee expectations....I think it will be a long long time before the 'scene' gets de-constructed to the nth degree and then follows the de construction.....the soul police are thin on the ground ....Folks know what they like and know where to find it ......without following the 'rulebook'

This is only a personal observation...personally cram as many different 'genres' in as you want for me ....without resorting to wyoming speed garage or Columbian horn pipe

Totally get that but specifically why "Northern"?  

[Mike]

33 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Everywhere i look now its "Northern " soul, recently three off the top of my head examples out of hundreds i have seen recently are: Charles Johnson - Never had a love like this described as a "Northern Classic" - was it really? (i am sure it wasn't), Vise - Baby i love you (played in almost all the modern Southern soul rooms at the time of discovery) and finally Rita Wright - touch me take me described as a "Northern Monster - so NOT Northern its practically South Pole

clipped

 

 

14 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Totally get that but specifically why "Northern"?  

 

Charles Johnson topic gives an angle on how things were ...

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/386020-charles-johnson-never-had-a-love/

 

[Soulsearch]

3 minutes ago, Source said:

 

Charles Johnson topic gives an angle on how things were ...

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/386020-charles-johnson-never-had-a-love/

 

Thankyou  

[Chalky]

All three have had plenty of turntable at “Northern Soul” events, makes them Northern Soul in my book.  
 

Charles Johnson has been played in northern rooms for 40 years, makes it a classic in my book as well. 

[Daved]

Some of that stuff was very big down south at the time of release when it wouldn't have made a northern soul do. NS has become a much broader church since and consists of all sorts of sub-genres. Even it only gets a NS spin 30 years later and some folk get to hear it at an NS event, it gets tagged as NS.

 

Also, record sellers love to add a NS tag to it, because some daft folk will pay  alot of £££ for something which, sometimes, is around in big numbers.

[Soulsearch]

23 minutes ago, Chalky said:

All three have had plenty of turntable at “Northern Soul” events, makes them Northern Soul in my book.  
 

Charles Johnson has been played in northern rooms for 40 years, makes it a classic in my book as well. 

Yep OK point taken, CJ In my ALL time top 5 always will be  

[Soulsearch]

26 minutes ago, Chalky said:

All three have had plenty of turntable at “Northern Soul” events, makes them Northern Soul in my book.  
 

Charles Johnson has been played in northern rooms for 40 years, makes it a classic in my book as well. 

So really, you are saying if a record has been played at a "Northern" Soul event it is in fact "Northern"??? So almost everything is "Northern"?

[Soulsearch]

9 minutes ago, Daved said:

Some of that stuff was very big down south at the time of release when it wouldn't have made a northern soul do. NS has become a much broader church since and consists of all sorts of sub-genres. Even it only gets a NS spin 30 years later and some folk get to hear it at an NS event, it gets tagged as NS.

 

Also, record sellers love to add a NS tag to it, because some daft folk will pay  alot of £££ for something which, sometimes, is around in big numbers.

Yep, think i agree  

[Soulsearch]

1 hour ago, Soulsearch said:

Dear All,

The term "Northern" soul appears to relate to almost all soul records and wondering why is this.

Yes I am a true Southerner, often frequenting venues during the late 80s/early 90s and there was always a pretty clear distinction between the "Northern" records/soul scene and the "southern" Modern soul records/scene yes including the "rare groove" scene, but i always knew a northern soul record from other soul genres - it was pretty easy to tell.

Everywhere i look now its "Northern " soul, recently three off the top of my head examples out of hundreds i have seen recently are: Charles Johnson - Never had a love like this described as a "Northern Classic" - was it really? (i am sure it wasn't), Vise - Baby i love you (played in almost all the modern Southern soul rooms at the time of discovery) and finally Rita Wright - touch me take me described as a "Northern Monster - so NOT Northern its practically South Pole.

 

Long Question: Are ALL (or most) soul records now classed as "Northern" regardless of anything? or because the term "Northern Soul" has become a household name, is it purely devised that not clued up newbie collectors don't/cant differentiate between types of soul and therefore makes it easier to sell a record that has the word "Northern" in it?

I don't like to pigeon hole or anything and defo not a North/South divide thing, just keen on any thoughts/responses.

Thanks for reading  

 

 

PS It "almost" seems to be a claiming" ritual between Northern and Modern??? - A great record is a great record, I love Darrow Fletcher What good am i (heard this many years ago in London) (OK Norther/x-Over whatever??)  - but because i heard it i Personally i don't feel the need to "claim" it though as a Modern room spin??????  

[Chalky]

Charles Johnson was played on the scene before there was a scene described as Modern Soul

19 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

So really, you are saying if a record has been played at a "Northern" Soul event it is in fact "Northern"??? So almost everything is "Northern"?

I couldn’t care less what people describe it as. The very fact it was played before Modern Soul was a thing, when all styles were played in one room makes it Northern soul doesn’t it?

[Soulsearch]

1 minute ago, Chalky said:

Charles Johnson was played on the scene before there was a scene described as Modern Soul

OK, what about Vise then, first played by Keb (in London) and i believe Ian - in the "Modern Rooms"  now classed as Northern?  

Any Rita Wright?? - Never can imagine that in "any" Northern room??

I am in No way being arsey!!, just like a friendly debate sometimes  

[Solidsoul]

If you're into Northern Soul you know what it is.  If your not a Northern Soul fan, you probably will never know!

Edited October 29, 2021 by D9 Ktf

[Soulsearch]

Just now, D9 Ktf said:

If you're into Northern Soul you know what it is.  If your not a Northern Soul fan, you probably will never know!

Cryptic?  

[Blackpoolsoul]

26 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

So really, you are saying if a record has been played at a "Northern" Soul event it is in fact "Northern"??? So almost everything is "Northern"?

Northern Soul is a "scene" that happens to play records from all over the shop (sometimes pinched from other scenes)

It's just a name

R&B, Soul, Funk, Reggae, Boogie, Disco, Latin Jazz, Boogaloo, Garage are many of the genres

[Soulsearch]

1 minute ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Northern Soul is a "scene" that happens to play records from all over the shop (sometimes pinched from other scenes)

It's just a name

R&B, Soul, Funk, Reggae, Boogie, Disco, Latin Jazz, Boogaloo, Garage are many of the genres

Why "Northern scene" as opposed to "Soul scene" then? "Northern" was always (originally) to differentiate a certain type of music, fast paced, Motown "style" records- is that not the case now then?

[Solidsoul]

15 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Northern Soul is a "scene" that happens to play records from all over the shop (sometimes pinched from other scenes)

It's just a name

R&B, Soul, Funk, Reggae, Boogie, Disco, Latin Jazz, Boogaloo, Garage are many of the genres

Yes and all those genres you mention are a mix up of music from all over the place. Those genres you mention are just labels put to a certain music, and that's what Northern Soul Music is.

The Northern Scene is the people, the venues, the fashion, the talk.

Northern Soul Music is a genre (a category of music). 

Edited October 29, 2021 by D9 Ktf

[Blackpoolsoul]

2 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Why "Northern scene" as opposed to "Soul scene" then? "Northern" was always (originally) to differentiate a certain type of music, fast paced, Motown "style" records- is that not the case now then?

It's just a time thing and Dj's moving on by playing newer stuff and always looking for records "not played" on the scene which they could if the dance floor demanded it.

The rave seen has changed in a similar way since it started too (but not yet as long in the tooth)

I always liked the mish mash and laugh when any one tells me they have some Northern Soul records

[Soulsearch]

4 minutes ago, D9 Ktf said:

Yes and all those genres you mention are a mix up of music from all over the place. Those genres you mention are just labels put to a certain music and that's what Northern Soul music is.

The Northern scene is the people, the venues, the fashion, the talk. Northern Soul Music is a genre (a category of music)

OK, i "sort" of get what you are saying  . So is Jazz Funk classed as Northern Soul?

[Blackpoolsoul]

8 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

OK, i "sort" of get what you are saying  . So is Jazz Funk classed as Northern Soul?

Jazz Funk is both a genre of music and was/is a scene too, I attended both as a youngster in the Midlands and Manchester

Colins words are good

https://www.electrofunkroots.co.uk/electrospective-event-colin-curtis-interview/

Edited October 29, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Shinehead]

6 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

OK, i "sort" of get what you are saying  . So is Jazz Funk classed as Northern Soul?

No it's jazz funk

[Solidsoul]

7 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 

I always liked the mish mash and laugh when any one tells me they have some Northern Soul records

So now your saying Northern Soul doesn't exist! 

I always laugh when someone says Northern Soul isn't a genre!

[Blackpoolsoul]

4 minutes ago, D9 Ktf said:

So now your saying Northern Soul doesn't exist! 

I always laugh when someone says Northern Soul isn't a genre!

We had this discussion before Northern Soul does exist as a Scene and that's it (apart from a few pop records made for the wonder that was Wigan Casino) no record was recorded as a Northern Soul record, it was just an invented name by my mate Dave Godin (RIP) when came up North and named it so

[Leicester Boy]

I actually think Northern Soul was a scene made up of various genres of music that has evolved into a genre in its own right. All be it a rainbow collection.  Getting ready to go to a Northern night now.

[Soulsearch]

I swear i am NOT being pedantic, still don't really get it? - So are "most" folks really saying its become so blurred that almost all "soul" is now called "Northern soul?  - Why add a second word?

Thanks  

[Leicester Boy]

2 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

I swear i am NOT being pedantic, still don't really get it? - So are "most" folks really saying its become so blurred that almost all "soul" is now called "Northern soul?  - Why add a second word?

Thanks  

Might be an east Midlands dialect thing but most people i know say "I'm going to a northern night"and tend to omit "soul" .have a great weekend ☺

[Soulsearch]

1 minute ago, Leicester Boy said:

Might be an east Midlands dialect thing but most people i know say "I'm going to a northern night"and tend to omit "soul" .have a great weekend ☺

LOL!! -   Have a great weekend yourself  

[Solidsoul]

38 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

We had this discussion before Northern Soul does exist as a Scene and that's it (apart from a few pop records made for the wonder that was Wigan Casino) no record was recorded as a Northern Soul record, it was just an invented name by my mate Dave Godin (RIP) when came up North and named it so

Northern Soul Music is a genre. A catagorie of music.  It doesn't matter who invented the tag Northern Soul, it describes a scene and a type of music! 

I don't think people like Elvis Presley and his contemporaries went into the studio and thought "I think I will make a record today to fit into a genre"

They just went with the fashions in music of the time. What was selling and getting in the charts.

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by D9 Ktf

[Jez Jones]

2 hours ago, Soulsearch said:

Totally get that but specifically why "Northern"?  

because 'Northern' is the catch all term for a majority of stuff when we go out. It may or may not be 'pure' northern....but lifes too short

 

[Merve]

Think a lot of dealers use the term because it sells records. Most outsiders haven't a clue what Northern Soul is, (how could they if they're not on the scene), but labeling a sales record Northern Soul gets attention. Others (non-dealers) just don't get it.....I'm not sure I get it sometimes & I've been on the scene since I was 15. I mean I get the scene, but not the 'Northern Soul' as a genre of music.

For example, to an outsider, how can some Bobby Goldsborough records be Northern Soul & others not when none of them are soul records? How can some Eddie Holman records be defined as Northern Soul but not others - They're all soul? How can Mel Britt be Northern Soul alongside The Crow - Totally different. The thing that IMO makes a record Northern Soul is that the record is/was played at nighters, which doesn't make a genre of music but is the soundtrack to a scene. This would make the records used as examples Northern Soul even though the author of the thread thinks not.

Its confusing to us, let alone the fella's across the pond selling 45s on ebay. Best to just give a semi knowing smile & move on to the next listing 

[Soulsearch]

2 minutes ago, Merve said:

Think a lot of dealers use the term because it sells records. Most outsiders haven't a clue what Northern Soul is, (how could they if they're not on the scene), but labeling a sales record Northern Soul gets attention. Others (non-dealers) just don't get it.....I'm not sure I get it sometimes & I've been on the scene since I was 15. I mean I get the scene, but not the 'Northern Soul' as a genre of music.

For example, to an outsider, how can some Bobby Goldsborough records be Northern Soul & others not when none of them are soul records? How can some Eddie Holman records be defined as Northern Soul but not others - They're all soul? How can Mel Britt be Northern Soul alongside The Crow - Totally different. The thing that IMO makes a record Northern Soul is that the record is/was played at nighters, which doesn't make a genre of music but is the soundtrack to a scene. This would make the records used as examples Northern Soul even though the author of the thread thinks not.

Its confusing to us, let alone the fella's across the pond selling 45s on ebay. Best to just give a semi knowing smile & move on to the next listing 

Thankyou Merve,

Best answer so far, but then does that mean that "if" Billy Jean by Michael Jackson was played at a "Northern Soul" venue does that automatically mean that Billy Jean then becomes a "Northern Soul" record and filed as such?  even if played once in 1983?

[Soulsearch]

1 hour ago, Shinehead said:

No it's jazz funk

 

[Merve]

5 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Thankyou Merve,

Best answer so far, but then does that mean that "if" Billy Jean by Michael Jackson was played at a "Northern Soul" venue does that automatically mean that Billy Jean then becomes a "Northern Soul" record and filed as such?  even if played once in 1983?

Cheers mate 

Billy Jean....There's been worse. How about Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick (played at Yate )....Thats where my theory falls down 

[Soulsearch]

1 minute ago, Merve said:

Cheers mate 

Billy Jean....There's been worse. How about Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick (played at Yate )....Thats where my theory falls down 

Now that's pure "Northern"

Regarding another reply (cant find now?) about writing to ALL the record dealers out there asking them to change their descriptions, i have already started.

 

Dear John,

With regards to the Ella Woods record you currently have.................................................................

[Baz Atkinson]

If it relates to all genres why do we have Modern Soul , Motown ,Deep Soul, Sweet Soul/ Lowrider / Funky Soul / Xover Soul and so on and so forth . 
It’s the northern soul crowd that have defined these not Paul Daniels lol . 
Trying telling the average man/women on the street what it is I bet  you get your Ps and Qs wrong . 

Walk past a normal pub and see a sign saying Northern Soul @ Motown then go in and listen to the biggest load of shite ever played . 
No wonder the scene tried to classify and  diversify the music the word is a bigger embarrassment than Last nights coronation street ? 

 

[Hooker1951]

4 hours ago, Soulsearch said:

Dear All,

The term "Northern" soul appears to relate to almost all soul records and wondering why is this.

Yes I am a true Southerner, often frequenting venues during the late 80s/early 90s and there was always a pretty clear distinction between the "Northern" records/soul scene and the "southern" Modern soul records/scene yes including the "rare groove" scene, but i always knew a northern soul record from other soul genres - it was pretty easy to tell.

Everywhere i look now its "Northern " soul, recently three off the top of my head examples out of hundreds i have seen recently are: Charles Johnson - Never had a love like this described as a "Northern Classic" - was it really? (i am sure it wasn't), Vise - Baby i love you (played in almost all the modern Southern soul rooms at the time of discovery) and finally Rita Wright - touch me take me described as a "Northern Monster - so NOT Northern its practically South Pole.

 

Long Question: Are ALL (or most) soul records now classed as "Northern" regardless of anything? or because the term "Northern Soul" has become a household name, is it purely devised that not clued up newbie collectors don't/cant differentiate between types of soul and therefore makes it easier to sell a record that has the word "Northern" in it?

I don't like to pigeon hole or anything and defo not a North/South divide thing, just keen on any thoughts/responses.

Thanks for reading  

 

 

 

[Soulsearch]

2 minutes ago, Baz Atkinson said:

If it relates to all genres why do we have Modern Soul , Motown ,Deep Soul, Sweet Soul/ Lowrider / Funky Soul / Xover Soul and so on and so forth . 
It’s the northern soul crowd that have defined these not Paul Daniels lol . 
Trying telling the average man/women on the street what it is I bet  you get your Ps and Qs wrong . 

Walk past a normal pub and see a sign saying Northern Soul @ Motown then go in and listen to the biggest load of shite ever played . 
No wonder the scene tried to classify and  diversify the music the word is a bigger embarrassment than Last nights coronation street ? 

 

You missed "two-step" and "rare groove"   Your point is really my point, they "did" have genres, now to me, it seems like only one which is out there is "Northern"  -Most of it.

[Pga1]

Plenty of tunes played out, just for a joke. Aka - these folk will dance to anything and hey presto it's northern, cheers

[Hooker1951]

Hi Soulsearch

Don’t want to sound disrespectful but if you don’t know the difference between NS  and  modern , if you don’t know musically , the year the record was released is a big enough clue to give you a flying start, As long as it’s good does it really matter?

kr

ML

[Soulsearch]

I wrote to a few dealers, here was one response.

Dear Sir,

Thanks for you message but if i put the word "Northern" in the titles of any of my records they just seem to sell within minutes. Just today i put on "Jive Bunny - Swing the mood (Northern Soul classic)" and i sold it for £100.00, "Queen - I want to break free (Northern Gem)" £120.00 - they just always seem to sell really easily and for a lot more than they are worth without actually being technically "Northern" although I do recall Jive Bunny are actually from the North.

Thanks anyway

Bob

 

[Seano]

One of the great things about Northern Soul has always been the range of music welcomed within it, and how it can encourage you to explore artists and styles that lie beyond your initial preferences.

Even in the days of 100mph stompers sounds like ‘The Drifter’ were huge. I remember tracks like George Benson ‘On Broadway’ and Nina Simone ‘My Baby Just Cares for me’ rather messing with my efforts to describe to friends just what this NS thing was all about, but happily embracing them quite quickly and both helping me to be just a bit less narrow minded than I was at the time!

 

With regard to whether sounds got played out at events billed as NS is, to my mind, not a limiting factor, though clearly very relevant. I think back in the day, buying soul packs of 100 45s you’d have a very instructive lesson in what ticks the box of NS and not. I’d eagerly flick through the records hoping to recognise names, titles, labels maybe, that I was familiar with, and give them a quick listen first. Then I’d move through the rest, in all cases giving a brief play to both sides to see if there was something that I liked. It was fairly rare that I thought that a record was so awful that I’d put it aside as one to take down to Record and Tape Exchange to see what I could get in swap value.

I had a sort of cataloguing approach that maybe fits this thread. Maybe out of 100 records, I’d find 20 that I perceived as ‘full-on Northern’, perhaps 50 that I thought were really good but not what I considered (at the time) Northern, another 20 that seemed to me to be easily justifying a play at an all-nighter or soul night but that I wasn’t familiar with, and then maybe that last 10 or so that I wasn’t planning to keep.

 

Surely the strength of NS is that it is not only capable of adapting, but that it can cherish its past and grow?

[Soulsearch]

5 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

Hi Soulsearch

Don’t want to sound disrespectful but if you don’t know the difference between NS  and  modern , if you don’t know musically , the year the record was released is a big enough clue to give you a flying start, As long as it’s good does it really matter?

kr

ML

No, not disrespectful - All FUN   but no.

OK what do you mean "year" When would you say the NS year ends?

[Hooker1951]

Hi Soulsearch

I would say there is no definitive end to NS , It starts to morph into different genres  around 68 to 72 but there are sounds that I would term pure NS as late as 74 that’s only my opinion though other people on the scene would have theirs, different ears hear different sounds depending sometimes on an individuals choice of music and how much soul dust has fell on them LoL

KR

ML

[Soulsearch]

Just now, Hooker1951 said:

Hi Soulsearch

I would say there is no definitive end to NS , It starts to morph into different genres  around 68 to 72 but there are sounds that I would term pure NS as late as 74 that’s only my opinion though other people on the scene would have theirs, different ears hear different sounds depending sometimes on an individuals choice of music and how much soul dust has fell on them LoL

KR

ML

Hi,

OK, still no answers though or many answers - still utterly confused!.

Below two already covered being (just two examples out of many) which conflicts your comment respectfully:

Charles Johnson - Never had a love so good 1980 - Apparently a massive "Northern" record also.

Rita Wright - Touch me take me - 1979 -  As i said it sounds to me as Northern as the South Pole.

 

So when you say year and overall sound??

 

 

 

[Chalky]

4 hours ago, Soulsearch said:

OK, i "sort" of get what you are saying  . So is Jazz Funk classed as Northern Soul?

No it's classed as shite...

[Hooker1951]

Hi Soulsearch

Those two records don’t sound remotely Northern Soul  to me and I’ve never heard them played in any venue I’ve visited as a punter or a DJ , to my ears they are modern Soul  and wouldn’t go down well in any Northern room, if you  like them or anybody does that’s yours and their perogative that’s why people like different rooms, For example 1960,s RnB has more in common with Northern Soul than those two sounds your ears should tell you that much LOL,

KR

ML

[Soulsearch]

10 minutes ago, Hooker1951 said:

Hi Soulsearch

Those two records don’t sound remotely Northern Soul  to me and I’ve never heard them played in any venue I’ve visited as a punter or a DJ , to my ears they are modern Soul  and wouldn’t go down well in any Northern room, if you  like them or anybody does that’s yours and their perogative that’s why people like different rooms, For example 1960,s RnB has more in common with Northern Soul than those two sounds your ears should tell you that much LOL,

KR

ML

Me neither and i agree, but i have been informed by some Northern Folks if you read through that the rest of the opinions/answers that the Charles Johnson was indeed a "classic" Northern record played in quite a few of the "northern" rooms. That is what confuses me?.

I think though i will call it a day on this topic as nobody really seems to have a definitive  answer.

For me, it has become very blurred recently, but i have been out of the scene really for a good 25-30 years (still obviously listened to my records). I think the "soul" scene in general has changed beyond recognition. Prices for records too GOSH!!!

I shall just be into "soul"!

Thankyou    

PS The Charles Johnson though in anyone's book is truly a gem  regardless of taste.

[Chalky]

I played Charles Johnson in my sets mid to late 80s as did others then and before me.