What do auction prices tell us about current values

[Bbrich]

Lots of discussion recently regarding the 'unreal' prices achieved for certain records. Does the price achieved set a new perceived 'market value' - Not in my view, all it tells us is that ONLY ONE PERSON (in the world?) was prepared to pay that price on that day. So in theory if the record (different copy) was auctioned the next day the 2nd highest bidder from the first auction would only have to beat the 3rd highest bidder from the first auction i.e. 1 increment above the figure 3rd highest bidder dropped out.  These 2 now have the record so anyone now wanting to sell a copy is selling to a 'market' most of whom wouldn't pay anything like the first ending auction price. Personally I would look at the auction price where the bulk of bidders dropped out to get some idea of perceived current 'market value' (I didn't watch the recent Cecil auction but that would have been interesting to view). all theoretical I know but that how I look at these auctions.

[The Tempest]

In my opinion - they don’t ! Just because people are willing to pay overinflated prices for a certain record - does not make that price a true reflection of its value - plenty of rich people collecting out there utilising pensions / savings / investments to fund their collections - they want that record and have the cash to get it 

[Dobber]

Someone had to pose the question rich,and well done for taking the bullet

very well said too!

i think what happens is: it doesnt set a new value, but it certainly inflates it..so for example if montclairs hey you dont fight it was seen to be around the 1k mark on a normal day,then it sells on auction for 3.8k, no one realistically is gonna pay 3.8k on a set sale,but they may consider 2k on a set sale now! And thats all because a clown decides to  pay a ridiculous amount caught up in the moment!

[Bbrich]

6 minutes ago, Dobber said:

Someone had to pose the question rich,and well done for taking the bullet

very well said too!

i think what happens is: it doesnt set a new value, but it certainly inflates it..so for example if montclairs hey you dont fight it was seen to be around the 1k mark on a normal day,then it sells on auction for 3.8k, no one realistically is gonna pay 3.8k on a set sale,but they may consider 2k on a set sale now! And thats all because a clown decides to  pay a ridiculous amount caught up in the moment!

That is what I was trying to say, dont look at the final price look where the bulk of bidders dropped out.

[Bbrich]

2 hours ago, Dobber said:

And thats all because a clown decides to  pay a ridiculous amount caught up in the moment!

In reality it takes 2 clowns to make a circus!!!

Edited October 21, 2021 by Bbrich

[Soulman58]

Why I don't disagree the way prices have generally risen shows there is one big circus tent out there somewhere. 

[Soulsearch]

2 hours ago, The Tempest said:

In my opinion - they don’t ! Just because people are willing to pay overinflated prices for a certain record - does not make that price a true reflection of its value - plenty of rich people collecting out there utilising pensions / savings / investments to fund their collections - they want that record and have the cash to get it 

An Ex copy copy of Rita Wright Touch me Jet was sold privately by my friend to an American a couple of months ago for £425!! - worth £150 maybe?? (a tired record and not really that rare IMO)

and a M demo copy of Gloria Shannon Tears sold 2 months ago for £250!! and again last week for £200! - worth again maybe max £140 maybe?? (great record, not at all rare IMO)

I am a newbie/wannabe collector, i have got absolutely NO chance of restarting/rekindling my  long sold record collection  Yes, it just takes one or two people world wide who want it

 

This time around for me collecting records so far has NOT been fun - used to be!!!.

 

[Ageing Face]

There have always been tracks that you’ve chased for years and you end up paying more than you would like to, but when the record’s in front of you & you’re told the price you bite the bullet and pay it ‘cos you’ve wanted it for so long. However, I can’t imagine that it’s the case with current auction prices because it’s happening every week. All it’s doing is giving less scrupulous dealers an excuse to raise the benchmark price 

[Soulsearch]

If your a multimillionaire (or just rich), its like a working person buying a pint of milk at the local - yes if its there and moneys no object then you will buy it. 

However with ALL investments there is always that potential of a bursting bubble - normally happens at the wrong time ie just after prices have skyrocketed to over inflated prices. Its like that for wine, art, gold, watches, bricks and mortar everything. It never completely loses value, it just adjusts to a more realistic price. Could the same happen for rare Vinyl?? - you actually just never know??

This is great for people like me, not avid serious collectors though. But i guess when things like bubbles burst most savvy "investors" hold onto their assets until they eventually rise again - and they ALWAYS do.

However............................................perhaps it is just simply there are more wealthy collectors of rare vinyl in the world than there has ever been before, could be as simple as that and no bubbles will ever burst but keep being inflated.

Just wait until the oil giants  in the middle east start buying rare soul vinyl - that WILL be interesting??

Still, £425 for a Rita Wright!!??

[Soulsearch]

IE Perhaps Rare soul Vinyl has for a long long time been "under" valued and this price rise IS actually the adjustment?????

[Simon T]

9 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

However............................................perhaps it is just simply there are more wealthy collectors of rare vinyl in the world than there has ever been before, could be as simple as that and no bubbles will ever burst but keep being inflated.

 

There could be thousands of collectors who only have one very expensive  Holly Grail as their 'collection', i don't think the expression "fur coat, no knickers" came about by accident!

Edited October 21, 2021 by Simon T

[Solidsoul]

Some people like paying a lot of money for records. It's the only way they can feel they are buying something worth having!  

I suppose I'm lucky, I like the records enough to appreciate low price records just as much as the expensive ones!

Edited October 21, 2021 by D9 Ktf

[Soulsearch]

Just now, D9 Ktf said:

Some people like paying a lot of money for records. It's the only way they can feel they are buying something worth having!  They think cheap records are not very good!

I suppose I'm lucky, I like the records enough to appreciate low price records just as much as the expensive ones!

That is very true, BUT people, males in general are inherent collectors and always have been even since the Romans!!, men especially LOVE collecting things, normally the best and the best is normally both rare and beautiful

Wont help my collection though  

 

[Chalky]

A lot has been written about auction fever, the emotions,  effects and eventual outcome rather than a predicted outcome.  Once that mist descends sense goes out of the window.  Do a search for auction fever, plenty of reading. 

[Soulsearch]

1 minute ago, Chalky said:

A lot has been written about auction fever, the emotions,  effects and eventual outcome rather than a predicted outcome.  Once that mist descends sense goes out of the window.  Do a search for auction fever, plenty of reading. 

But it appears its not just auctions, ive heard of really stupid prices recently for private sales especially in the last year or so?

[Soulsearch]

14 minutes ago, Simon T said:

There could be thousands of collectors who only have one very expensive  Holly Grail as their 'collection', i don't think the expression "fur coat, no knickers" came about by accident!

LOL - actually that's me!! - one great one (not quite a holy grail, about £1,000 or so) and the other 20 are £10-15 records  my excuse is i have ALWAYS loved it and wanted to "own" it.

[Northernguy]

In the first few years of my ebay buying if there was a record I really wanted I would just put a silly bid so I won it.

Then December 2005 I saw my Christmas treat and bid £2000 ouch I was outbid!

I didn't do it again after that.

POPSIKE

 

 

 

[Mssoulie]

I think it's a lot to do with ages of most collectors these days.

In my 30s with all the kids, mortgages and working like a looney to provide I didn't have the time and certainly not the money to indulge, but jump forward 25 years with much more time and disposable income to play with then I can dabble a little bit. If I didn't have a passion for motorbikes then I would certainly get sticky fingers. BUT common sense has to come into it somewhere.

[Soulsearch]

1 minute ago, Mssoulie said:

I think it's a lot to do with ages of most collectors these days.

In my 30s with all the kids, mortgages and working like a looney to provide I didn't have the time and certainly not the money to indulge, but jump forward 25 years with much more time and disposable income to play with then I can dabble a little bit. If I didn't have a passion for motorbikes then I would certainly get sticky fingers. BUT common sense has to come into it somewhere.

So True, but common for people to have "tunnel vision" and become obsessed especially when they've been after something for so so long - nothing else matters other than to own it - regrets may come once you do own it of course as you've already achieved your goal - then the worrying sets in.

It almost becomes momentarily more important than your children!!  

[Okehdownsouth]

Your assessment is almost correct but more important is, bidding increment and how many bidders. Lots of people take a daft punt at auctions and throw in a very low bid in the hope that only a few people have seen the auction. This does happen occasionally on ebay where the seller gets the description wrong and bargains can be had. If you look at JM's auctions in particular you will usually see that for the higher value records there are loads of undervalue bids but most of these drop out before it reaches anywhere near it's correct value. What normally happens is that it ends up with just 2 bidders fighting it out and very often we see final prices at way over real values, do you remember the JD Martin that went for something like £1400.00? complete madness but it took more than one person to create that. So auction prices do not only reflect one person's view they show what at least 2 people would pay because often the increment is only £5.00 or less. I am a bit of obsessive about the condition of the records that I buy and often walk by rare records at quite low prices just because the label is a bit tatty of has writing on it and spend hours looking for upgrades of records that I already have in my collection, just to try to get that perfect copy. In doing this I will say that in the past I have sometimes paid too much. I keep a spreadsheet of my collection with approximate values for insurance ( lets face it if my house burned down, how would I ever rebuild a collection that has taken me over 50 years to build) but I value them at current realistic price which is on some occasions is a bit less than I paid. Hope this helps

[Bbrich]

33 minutes ago, Okehdownsouth said:

I keep a spreadsheet of my collection with approximate values for insurance ( lets face it if my house burned down, how would I ever rebuild a collection that has taken me over 50 years to build) but I value them at current realistic price which is on some occasions is a bit less than I paid

My insurance company (specialist in high value items) strongly advised me to photograph every record in case of a claim (my spreadsheet records the photo number - bit of a pain but how else do you prove you actually owned them?). I asked them how they would value them & they said "we have our sources" but wouldn't divulge(?). If I had to claim I would probably ask JM &/or other high profile dealers to value....  (bit off topic but with values these days a serious consideration for many). Taking records out to DJ is another minefield re; insurance!!

[Tomangoes]

The litmus test is when a second copy comes up at auction within a few months of the first...

My experience is, as an example, several bidders up to 50% of end price, and just 2 or 3 as it reaches the final bid.

Some folks would see not winning as not acceptable, regardless of cost and associated due diligence.

Saw it once with a pair of signed man City blue boxing gloves made for hit man Hatton in his loss at las Vegas. (Actually he was not allowed to wear them).

The large consumption of Stella Artois assisted the buyer in spending 100 twenty pound notes to win, much to the amusement of his co workers. Never heard the reaction of his wife waiting at home no doubt simultaneously booking the two week all inclusive trip to Benidorm.

Ed

[Paul-s]

On 21/10/2021 at 14:17, The Tempest said:

In my opinion - they don’t ! Just because people are willing to pay overinflated prices for a certain record - does not make that price a true reflection of its value - plenty of rich people collecting out there utilising pensions / savings / investments to fund their collections - they want that record and have the cash to get it 

A record is worth whatever someone is prepared to pay for it I guess.

[Soulsearch]

1 hour ago, Okehdownsouth said:

Your assessment is almost correct but more important is, bidding increment and how many bidders. Lots of people take a daft punt at auctions and throw in a very low bid in the hope that only a few people have seen the auction. This does happen occasionally on ebay where the seller gets the description wrong and bargains can be had. If you look at JM's auctions in particular you will usually see that for the higher value records there are loads of undervalue bids but most of these drop out before it reaches anywhere near it's correct value. What normally happens is that it ends up with just 2 bidders fighting it out and very often we see final prices at way over real values, do you remember the JD Martin that went for something like £1400.00? complete madness but it took more than one person to create that. So auction prices do not only reflect one person's view they show what at least 2 people would pay because often the increment is only £5.00 or less. I am a bit of obsessive about the condition of the records that I buy and often walk by rare records at quite low prices just because the label is a bit tatty of has writing on it and spend hours looking for upgrades of records that I already have in my collection, just to try to get that perfect copy. In doing this I will say that in the past I have sometimes paid too much. I keep a spreadsheet of my collection with approximate values for insurance ( lets face it if my house burned down, how would I ever rebuild a collection that has taken me over 50 years to build) but I value them at current realistic price which is on some occasions is a bit less than I paid. Hope this helps

Probably worth more than your house!!  

[Soulsearch]

As records have become investment/commodities there always people holding out for that particular copy of said record.

fairly common records are going for huge amounts if the condition is say M-and all the rest are just OK - id say semi justified as the record arguably is a lot rarer if all the others are in average condition.

I recently paid £200 for a fairly common record which should be no more than £100-120? but because of its condition i bit the bullet and vastly overpaid  Am i glad i did it? - not if i see a M- one next week for £120 but for now i am.

Also every record sold means there is one less out there on the market.

[Solidsoul]

6 hours ago, Bbrich said:

My insurance company (specialist in high value items) strongly advised me to photograph every record in case of a claim (my spreadsheet records the photo number - bit of a pain but how else do you prove you actually owned them?). I asked them how they would value them & they said "we have our sources" but wouldn't divulge(?). If I had to claim I would probably ask JM &/or other high profile dealers to value....  (bit off topic but with values these days a serious consideration for many). Taking records out to DJ is another minefield re; insurance!!

My insurance company said my records are not a collection but a lot of individual items. They said it would only be a collection, if it would be less complete by taking one away. Like a pack of cards it would be no good if you took one away.

I agreed that it would not matter, apart from the value, if you took ten away.

[Soulsearch]

5 hours ago, Soulsearch said:

As records have become investment/commodities there always people holding out for that particular copy of said record.

fairly common records are going for huge amounts if the condition is say M-and all the rest are just OK - id say semi justified as the record arguably is a lot rarer if all the others are in average condition.

I recently paid £200 for a fairly common record which should be no more than £100-120? but because of its condition i bit the bullet and vastly overpaid  Am i glad i did it? - not if i see a M- one next week for £120 but for now i am.

Also every record sold means there is one less out there on the market.

Last sentence meaning: by buying it (if very few of them) you've just increased the rarity and without realising it also just increased the value. Potentially

[Chalky]

6 hours ago, Tomangoes said:

Some folks would see not winning as not acceptable, regardless of cost and associated due diligence.

Ed

This is exactly what I wrote about earlier, many studies in to auction fever and the fact reasoning and logic get lost in the red mist.  Set sale many would never part with the money they pay in an auction but often the emotions and whatever chemical process is released by the brain during the bidding process block out a buyers common sense.  It is the "though shall not beat me" mentality has a lot to answer for.

[Chalky]

As for insurance, most would want more proof than a spread sheet before they pay out.  One I spoke to wanted it valuing by an independent expert.  you had better speak to them and read the small print.

[Okehdownsouth]

I have done that and my insurance company are OK with kit but just to make sure I am in the process of photographing and recording all of them, but it is taking a long time. One day they might be for sale so all of this will save me a lot of time, but at the moment I am still adding to to it, because as you know these things never come to an end. 

[Bbrich]

I have always recorded where/who I bought them off (as well as photo linked to spreadsheet) e.g. discogs , dealer1, name of friend etc.... some of this would be verifiable, some not but would add to the evidence if a claim had to be made.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Bbrich
addeda bit

[Baz Atkinson]

I think auction prices definitely do not reflect trends on most buying platforms ie Facebook rare soul sales etc . It gets me to thinking about who’s buying at these prices ? 
I know it’s a cliche but the sussed collector imho would not venture any where near some of the auction prices certainly in the UK ? I could be totally wrong but? 
The thing that binds it all together is the fact that the buying scene was always quite insular based on shared knowledge and  a general consensus that a certain record was worth a certain price . 
Auctions have smashed this notion and  show no sign of slowing down in some respects . 
The Sweet Soul Market has added to the equation and brought a bit extra spice, but the price of big northern things particularly oldies to me defies reason. It’s a New Dawn for the nova rich ! 
Oh and yes for bigger items only worth what one person pays this can be verified when a  similar item auctions within a certain time period again and the price differs markedly , this does happen ! 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Baz Atkinson

[Soulsearch]

Hi All,

Just been reading about lots of opinions regarding the current vastly over payed prices at auctions for rare soul records, mainly negative comments.

But, IMHO, not really to do with the auctions, the reason that records are selling very well at auctions is because there seems to be nowhere else to actually secure and own these records. Certain records that not too too long ago were relatively easy to find have pretty much dried up. These are all in personal collections that folks are completely reluctant to part with.

The only place to go is the auction, therefore the over inflated Auction prices are a direct response to people holding on to their records - you have little choice, The only way to get them is that you will be lucky enough to actually have a chance to own them and yes, often paying way over the odds.

As a collector 25 odd years ago, it was my absolute passion growing up and it was fun. I sold most of mine throughout the past 20 years or so (family/house ect etc), i felt i needed to rekindle an interest (i am now 45) which i started about a year or so ago with a wants list of approximately 100 records.

On my list i have currently brought 3   - Yes 3. OK, none are particularly easy (used to be a lot easier though), but for me (personally) The fun seems to have gone as a newbie collector. Newbie collectors will be (or should be?) the driving force of future record collecting.

It is the fault of nobody, in fact the Auctions at least provide us mere mortals with a "chance" albeit frustrating, at least to purchase and own records that we would otherwise never be able to.

My point being is that collectors moan about auction prices, but it is in fact those same collectors which have forced these values to rise and for auction prices to have become so overly elevated recently.

 

No reply's needed, just saying................................................................................   and i swear NOT SOUR GRAPES!!

 

Thankyou  

 

 

 

[Soulsearch]

3 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Hi All,

Just been reading about lots of opinions regarding the current vastly over payed prices at auctions for rare soul records, mainly negative comments.

But, IMHO, not really to do with the auctions, the reason that records are selling very well at auctions is because there seems to be nowhere else to actually secure and own these records. Certain records that not too too long ago were relatively easy to find have pretty much dried up. These are all in personal collections that folks are completely reluctant to part with.

The only place to go is the auction, therefore the over inflated Auction prices are a direct response to people holding on to their records - you have little choice, The only way to get them is that you will be lucky enough to actually have a chance to own them and yes, often paying way over the odds.

As a collector 25 odd years ago, it was my absolute passion growing up and it was fun. I sold most of mine throughout the past 20 years or so (family/house ect etc), i felt i needed to rekindle an interest (i am now 45) which i started about a year or so ago with a wants list of approximately 100 records.

On my list i have currently brought 3   - Yes 3. OK, none are particularly easy (used to be a lot easier though), but for me (personally) The fun seems to have gone as a newbie collector. Newbie collectors will be (or should be?) the driving force of future record collecting.

It is the fault of nobody, in fact the Auctions at least provide us mere mortals with a "chance" albeit frustrating, at least to purchase and own records that we would otherwise never be able to.

My point being is that collectors moan about auction prices, but it is in fact those same collectors which have forced these values to rise and for auction prices to have become so overly elevated recently.

 

No reply's needed, just saying................................................................................   and i swear NOT SOUR GRAPES!!

 

Thankyou  

 

 

 

PS Just to clarify, i am in NO WAY blaming established collectors, i am simply saying that that is the reason auction prices have become so high - in fact record values as a whole  

[Tomangoes]

Unfortunately a forum is not the place to make a statement or two and not expect a reaction.

Some agree and some will disagree.

Its only debate after all!

Ed

[Soulsearch]

17 minutes ago, Tomangoes said:

Unfortunately a forum is not the place to make a statement or two and not expect a reaction.

Some agree and some will disagree.

Its only debate after all!

Ed

Hi Ed,

OK, yes see your point - its still all new to me - wasn't meant to be anything negative. Just voicing my thoughts  

[Tomangoes]

Quite a few comments were talking about auction prices fetching more than set sales. 

It was more about how auctions get bidders in a frenzy, more than anything.

Supply and demand always has a strong influence on every price.

Good luck building up your collection again.

Ed

[Mike]

similar topic merged into this topic

[Soulsearch]

11 minutes ago, Tomangoes said:

Quite a few comments were talking about auction prices fetching more than set sales. 

It was more about how auctions get bidders in a frenzy, more than anything.

Supply and demand always has a strong influence on every price.

Good luck building up your collection again.

Ed

Thanks for merging Ed  Thankyou

[Okehdownsouth]

It is quite amazing how one simple comment has stirred up so much passion. The price of everything is based on supply and demand, if supply is scarce and demand is high then prices will be high. It has nothing to do with people over paying. If someone is prepared to pay "over the odds" for something it is their prerogative and is not to be the subject of vitriol of others. I have bought numerous "mint" records, some from the JM auction and occasionally have I thought to myself, have I paid a bit too much? So I ask you have I paid too much for the following? considering that each one is stone mint with perfect labels: Sam Dees £520, £480.00 Billy Prophet on Sue Demo, Ivories Dispenza, £800, The Crow £600, Four Sights £480, Christine Cooper, £400, James Fountain £520, I could go on and on because I am fortunate to have hundreds like this, not all worth a fortune but just as valuable to me, especially those early British demos that were junk shop finds from my early teens. It is not about how much you pay, it is about how much you are prepared to pay at any time. I may have been fortunate that most of my collection has risen in value but has only happened because there are more people with more money wanting to buy them. At the end of the day it is not about how much a record is worth, it is about collecting the music that you love in a way that suits you, you chose how to do it and how much to spend, just please do not buy the crappy over priced boot legs that fill the pages of Ebay because they do nobody any good, except the thieves who get them pressed,

[Tomangoes]

Vitriol? Nay, banter.

Most comments are based on value estimations from numerous sources compared with specific auction results.

Some are deemed over priced, some a fair price, and some a bargain.

But "the correct" valuation is never going to be the same for everybody.

A single unused stamp sold at auction this week for probably more than if the top 1000 rare soul records went up as a job lot, so we do have to put it into perspective!

Ed

[Chalky]

With auctions it isn’t always supply and demand, the majority are not scarce and time and time again they are questioned as to why they are on an auction in the first place and not set sale and that they are often common records.

Some of  the prices paid, if you offered half you would probably get an offer of a copy.  
 

How can you compare stamps and records, you cannot.  How old was the stamp, how rare was it in unused condition.  Same for works of art, they can’t be compared, they are one offs for a start,  any records are not.  You are not comparing like for like. Cecil Washington for instance, dozens of copies about. 

[Okehdownsouth]

Stamps! I thought that this was a forum about soul music and record values, shall we now start discussing the crazy prices that some people are paying for houses?

[Scooterboy]

1 hour ago, Okehdownsouth said:

It is quite amazing how one simple comment has stirred up so much passion. The price of everything is based on supply and demand, if supply is scarce and demand is high then prices will be high. It has nothing to do with people over paying. If someone is prepared to pay "over the odds" for something it is their prerogative and is not to be the subject of vitriol of others. I have bought numerous "mint" records, some from the JM auction and occasionally have I thought to myself, have I paid a bit too much? So I ask you have I paid too much for the following? considering that each one is stone mint with perfect labels: Sam Dees £520, £480.00 Billy Prophet on Sue Demo, Ivories Dispenza, £800, The Crow £600, Four Sights £480, Christine Cooper, £400, James Fountain £520, I could go on and on because I am fortunate to have hundreds like this, not all worth a fortune but just as valuable to me, especially those early British demos that were junk shop finds from my early teens. It is not about how much you pay, it is about how much you are prepared to pay at any time. I may have been fortunate that most of my collection has risen in value but has only happened because there are more people with more money wanting to buy them. At the end of the day it is not about how much a record is worth, it is about collecting the music that you love in a way that suits you, you chose how to do it and how much to spend, just please do not buy the crappy over priced boot legs that fill the pages of Ebay because they do nobody any good, except the thieves who get them pressed,

Have you paid too much? Nearly all command significantly higher values today (event at set sale) and given the examples you have provided I'd guess that you are well on the way to having doubled your outlay.  So have you paid too much?  In my humble opinion, "no" you haven't.

[Tomangoes]

1 hour ago, Okehdownsouth said:

Stamps! I thought that this was a forum about soul music and record values, shall we now start discussing the crazy prices that some people are paying for houses?

Stamps, artworks, sculptures, Chinese Ming Vases, and Northern Soul records.....common denominator...auction frenzy!

The subject in question is why Auction items "can" escalate accepted values.

Homes under the hammer....often delivers the same phenonomum.

The "winners" deemed to have overpaid, often defend their actions, and rarely accept they overpaid after getting caught up in the excitement or thrill of the chase.

Ed

[Steve G]

This old chestnut. My tuppenyworth.

1) Disposable income. There are a lot of very rich people wanting records (not just old quite a few younger folk in well paid jobs - Tech, Banks, Creative Arts, Advertising, Commodities etc.). Additionally for older folk inheritance kicking in as parents die. As someone said if you are a millionaire overbidding is like one of us mortals buying a pint - chump change, or perhaps taking the missus out on a semi regular "date night" - costs more but hardly breaking the bank unless you are unlucky enough to be on UC.

2) Record collecting is more popular than it has ever been, despite the old boys saying it is dying out / will be over in 10 years. Genres that you couldn't give away decades ago, now fetching high prices. Some records that were in demand now badly out of fashion, others massively "in". And of course soul collecting is now global, not largely limited to callow youth in a record bar in the UK. Linked to this the advent of the "trophy record" which transcends trends and the people that crave them. Del Larks, Salvadors, Eddie Parker we all know 'em.

3) You absolutely can compare records to stamp collecting and other forms of collecting from football cards to enamel signs to comics, especially the genuinely rare records (not the "dozens of copy" records that people keep saying are "very rare" like Cecil W, Sam Dees etc. which are not rare). Aligned to that is a lack of knowledge amongst some collectors. No real idea of what is rare and what was about in quantity and therefore by definition no compass to guide them. At this point if something is genuinely rare, it is unlikely more copies will surface. Not impossible, but increasingly unlikely. Look at the amount of crap on eBay, discogs etc.

4) Auction fever is a thing. If someone outbids you on something you want, its like the neighbour popping round and dumping on your doorstep. You respond until you realise they are an ex UFC champion.

5) Most collectibles have increased in price massively in the last two years, partly due to lockdown etc. and some people having more money as the gulf between well off and poor has increased. I talk to my postie sometimes about his collecting passion - vintage football programmes. Same story, prices ridiculous, always outbid, can't believe it etc. Another mate collects / deals in mid century furniture - same story.

6) Time is a thing. If you are in your 60s and have dosh there can be a feeling of "IF I don't buy it now I might never get another chance".

7) Chasing already in demand records. Always been a thing but it inflates prices temporarily. Yes, collecting genres can overheat and possibly records have, but I am far than convinced that this will die with my generation.

Have fun with that lot! X 

 

 

 

[Okehdownsouth]

I agree that the whole world of collecting is very similar and people at auctions do get carried away, but this topic is specific to soul records so I see no reason to mention stamps, coins, cars or anything else that people collect. 

As far as defining what is rare, now that is an interesting subject. How many copies define "rare", is it one, two, three, half a dozen, or 200 or even more?

For me being rare is defined by demand and how many are really available to buy and what condition they are in. Most of the exceptionally rare records have been trashed by continual plays on crap decks at soul night. So when an unplayed or almost mint copy of a rare or even rare-ish record appears on the market it will attract big money even though there may be 100, or 200 others in circulation, especially if it is a very popular classic that does not appear for sale that often. Just look at some of the sites that regularly post set sales, Darren Brown for instance. I get his emails and often I am able to log in straight away but almost always find that I am too late for the best records. This happens regardless of the asking price but because a lot of the records just do not come up for sale that often, which makes them rare. 

[Chalky]

2 hours ago, Steve G said:

This old chestnut. My tuppenyworth.

1) Disposable income. There are a lot of very rich people wanting records (not just old quite a few younger folk in well paid jobs - Tech, Banks, Creative Arts, Advertising, Commodities etc.). Additionally for older folk inheritance kicking in as parents die. As someone said if you are a millionaire overbidding is like one of us mortals buying a pint - chump change, or perhaps taking the missus out on a semi regular "date night" - costs more but hardly breaking the bank unless you are unlucky enough to be on UC.

2) Record collecting is more popular than it has ever been, despite the old boys saying it is dying out / will be over in 10 years. Genres that you couldn't give away decades ago, now fetching high prices. Some records that were in demand now badly out of fashion, others massively "in". And of course soul collecting is now global, not largely limited to callow youth in a record bar in the UK. Linked to this the advent of the "trophy record" which transcends trends and the people that crave them. Del Larks, Salvadors, Eddie Parker we all know 'em.

3) You absolutely can compare records to stamp collecting and other forms of collecting from football cards to enamel signs to comics, especially the genuinely rare records (not the "dozens of copy" records that people keep saying are "very rare" like Cecil W, Sam Dees etc. which are not rare). Aligned to that is a lack of knowledge amongst some collectors. No real idea of what is rare and what was about in quantity and therefore by definition no compass to guide them. At this point if something is genuinely rare, it is unlikely more copies will surface. Not impossible, but increasingly unlikely. Look at the amount of crap on eBay, discogs etc.

4) Auction fever is a thing. If someone outbids you on something you want, its like the neighbour popping round and dumping on your doorstep. You respond until you realise they are an ex UFC champion.

5) Most collectibles have increased in price massively in the last two years, partly due to lockdown etc. and some people having more money as the gulf between well off and poor has increased. I talk to my postie sometimes about his collecting passion - vintage football programmes. Same story, prices ridiculous, always outbid, can't believe it etc. Another mate collects / deals in mid century furniture - same story.

6) Time is a thing. If you are in your 60s and have dosh there can be a feeling of "IF I don't buy it now I might never get another chance".

7) Chasing already in demand records. Always been a thing but it inflates prices temporarily. Yes, collecting genres can overheat and possibly records have, but I am far than convinced that this will die with my generation.

Have fun with that lot! X 

 

 

 

I do agree you can compare art and records or indeed any other object  as collectables But you cannot compare a stamp which may be a one off with a record that is far from rare. You have to take each on their own merit.

of course is somebody wants something so bad and they have the disposable income they are going to go above and beyond what others are prepared to do or pay. 

[Soulman58]

In for a penny, alas not farthing, in for a pound.  The interesting thing for me is the differentiation between what I see myself as, a Soul Music fan and a Soul collector, which the majority here are.

I have therefore been happy to get hold of a vast number of tunes on CD and even some on download, which I would never have purchased on vinyl, due to the price.

I have therefore always been amazed at what some will pay for records, I think my highest was £100 a while back.  Especially when I think that whoever discovered the sound presumably paid a very small price.  At that point I understand that DJs might pay over the odds, but I can't believe all of those currently paying high prices are DJs.  I therefore always ask myself how many other great records, they don't own, in whatever format could they have purchased instead.  And how often they would sit at home and play them?  Thus are they in it for the rarity or the music?

I always feel for most other areas silly prices, though probably not silly really, are paid as an investment or due to wanting to be ahead of the Joneses.

p.s Not having a go at anyone and as Faith Hope and Charity said "To Each His Own" - (cheap as chips)

[Steve G]

18 minutes ago, Soulman58 said:

In for a penny, alas not farthing, in for a pound.  The interesting thing for me is the differentiation between what I see myself as, a Soul Music fan and a Soul collector, which the majority here are.

I have therefore been happy to get hold of a vast number of tunes on CD and even some on download, which I would never have purchased on vinyl, due to the price.

I have therefore always been amazed at what some will pay for records, I think my highest was £100 a while back.  Especially when I think that whoever discovered the sound presumably paid a very small price.  At that point I understand that DJs might pay over the odds, but I can't believe all of those currently paying high prices are DJs.  I therefore always ask myself how many other great records, they don't own, in whatever format could they have purchased instead.  And how often they would sit at home and play them?  Thus are they in it for the rarity or the music?

I always feel for most other areas silly prices, though probably not silly really, are paid as an investment or due to wanting to be ahead of the Joneses.

p.s Not having a go at anyone and as Faith Hope and Charity said "To Each His Own" - (cheap as chips)

Interesting perspective. I consider myself a serious soul collector (not just northern); been doing it all my adult life, for me it is about owning the original artefact and the historical provenance that goes with it (i.e. someone's hopes and dreams of success, who is the person whose name is written on it, why / how did they buy it, what was the recording session like etc., even what was the label thinking of). It is also about having a collection, like any other type of "collector". Whilst CDs are valuable especially for unissued tracks and when a serious writer is employed for the sleeve notes (some interesting history), to me they will never replace original vinyl. Rarity or the music? As a (mainly) collector who DJs occasionally, I only buy records I like or by artists / producers I collect. But the lure of something different / unknown (and / or rare) is always an attraction I must admit.