What is crossover??

[Soulsearch]

Dear All,

i realise this has been discussed before, i "think" i do, but not confident i quite know what this means?.

To me?? rightly or wrongly its a record that appeals to BOTH the Northern and Modern fans regardless of when it was released/tempo etc/style even.

Out of thin air three records spring to mind which will help me to confirm if i know what "crossover" actually means/is: (REALLY OLD ones i know)

Carl Hall - What about you

We the people - making my daydream real

four below zero - ESP

I remember ALL three being highly popular (many years ago) at Northern Venues and Modern Venues in probably equal measures.

Any thought to confirm and ask because some records i am listening to are either neither to my ears or pretty strictly Northern or strictly Modern but still classed as "crossover" - am i missing the point?

Thankyou

[Soulsearch]

4 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Dear All,

i realise this has been discussed before, i "think" i do, but not confident i quite know what this means?.

To me?? rightly or wrongly its a record that appeals to BOTH the Northern and Modern fans regardless of when it was released/tempo etc/style even.

Out of thin air three records spring to mind which will help me to confirm if i know what "crossover" actually means/is: (REALLY OLD ones i know)

Carl Hall - What about you

We the people - making my daydream real

four below zero - ESP

I remember ALL three being highly popular (many years ago) at Northern Venues and Modern Venues in probably equal measures.

Any thought to confirm and ask because some records i am listening to are either neither to my ears or pretty strictly Northern or strictly Modern but still classed as "crossover" - am i missing the point?

Thankyou

PS Just to add to my small list Alex Brown - Not responsible, to "my" ears PURE Modern not a hint of Northern but classed as "Crossover" Why??

[Blackpoolsoul]

29 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

PS Just to add to my small list Alex Brown - Not responsible, to "my" ears PURE Modern not a hint of Northern but classed as "Crossover" Why??

 

[Dobber]

For me xover is the change is sound leading out of the 60’s into 70’s,mainly the music itself,not the singing! But anything after say 1972 ish for me is “modern” 

[Dobber]

This is a piece of class xover,but at the back end of xover at 1972,anything after this becomes “modern”

 

[Soulsearch]

9 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 

Big Thanks for that, WOW a good response you had! - so everybody/nobody knows what crossover actually is - was there a conclusion though?. From reading, its a record that is generally loved by most of the soul fraternity as opposed to being loved by a specific group of ears i.e. Northern and Modern.

[Soulsearch]

8 minutes ago, Dobber said:

This is a piece of class xover,but at the back end of xover at 1972,anything after this becomes “modern”

 

Great track BTW - love it 

[Soulsearch]

3 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Great track BTW - love it 

OK, looked on Discogs - wont be buying that then!!

 

[Chalky]

Just read Rod Dearlove’s article in an issue of Voices From The Shadows. 
 

Crossover now has moved on to include just about anything and is far removed from what it initially was. 

[Soulsearch]

40 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Just read Rod Dearlove’s article in an issue of Voices From The Shadows. 
 

Crossover now has moved on to include just about anything and is far removed from what it initially was. 

Thankyou for that, i shall try and dig that one out

 

[Solidsoul]

Crossover was originally meant to describe Northern Soul records that could crossover into the new Modern Soul scene. These were usually newly discoverd 70's on even 80's records.

Somebody once described crossover to me as "records that were made in the 1970's, but the production/arrangement belongs in the 1960's".

As time goes by, the term has evolved to mean any midtempo soulful record that sounds later than 1970.  

Individual people will have different definitions on it! 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by D9 Ktf

[Baz Atkinson]

The British Soul Scene has always been obsessed with defining the music in its own quirky way . A scene that calls modern soul a record from the seventies onwards must have a tinch of pure irony to it ? 
My understanding of the genre is that it’s that period in soul music from 1969 where the production benefitted from slightly more sophisticated arrangement and generally did not sound as hard as some of the more gritty hard soul from the sixties . 
J J Barnes I’ve got to get rid of you is generally accepted as one that epitomises the sound but to be honest there are tens of thousands . 
We used to have literally thousands posted daily on here in the crossover thread . 
Any one with any logic might just go for calling it Soul Music however it just cuts out all the confusion ? 

 

[Tomangoes]

Indeed..60s covers raw r & b through crossover...just look at the changing motown output....

70s covers the disco revolution, amongst other things.

So in reality, a record could have several "tags" as well as the old chestnut, Northern Soul.

Heres my example of crossover....oh the irony!

Well worth a tenner, by the way..

Ed

 

 

[Soulsearch]

30 minutes ago, Tomangoes said:

Indeed..60s covers raw r & b through crossover...just look at the changing motown output....

70s covers the disco revolution, amongst other things.

So in reality, a record could have several "tags" as well as the old chestnut, Northern Soul.

Heres my example of crossover....oh the irony!

Well worth a tenner, by the way..

Ed

 

 

Thankyou. Now however i am even more confused and youv'e highlighted my point - To "my" ears that track would be complete and total 100% Northern? OK, if i compared my examples in original post say Alex Brown not responsible as an example, both records in terms of almost everything are completely totally different - both are still crossover though.

I think i will not use the term crossover, i think i am just going to have to say "soul".

 

[Soulsearch]

7 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Thankyou. Now however i am even more confused and youv'e highlighted my point - To "my" ears that track would be complete and total 100% Northern? OK, if i compared my examples in original post say Alex Brown not responsible as an example, both records in terms of almost everything are completely totally different - both are still crossover though.

I think i will not use the term crossover, i think i am just going to have to say "soul".

 

Just to add, using Alex Brown (as ref) which to my ears is PURE modern soul, the J Holiday one is PURE northern? - then why are they both considered crossover? - i am just not getting it 

 

[Tomangoes]

But....most folks would say a motownesque 60s stomper like the Salvadores stick my me baby is Northern Soul.....along with hundreds like it.

Then came the change in sound, pace, rhythm, etc at the end of the 60s and into the 70s, but guess what...thats also now referred to as Northern Soul...

D9 ktf summed it up.

Don't forget, the actual accepted term Northern Soul was only coined in 69, and by 1974, the conveyor belt of endless 60s stompers was running thin, wearing thin, and Levine in particular started playing "crossover" to bridge the void.

AND eventually these got accepted into the Northern Soul playlists.

Defining a term really is unique to you in many ways.

Nobody rules ok on this.

Defining Soul music is just as personal.

Ed

[Soulsearch]

4 minutes ago, Tomangoes said:

But....most folks would say a motownesque 60s stomper like the Salvadores stick my me baby is Northern Soul.....along with hundreds like it.

Then came the change in sound, pace, rhythm, etc at the end of the 60s and into the 70s, but guess what...thats also now referred to as Northern Soul...

D9 ktf summed it up.

Don't forget, the actual accepted term Northern Soul was only coined in 69, and by 1974, the conveyor belt of endless 60s stompers was running thin, wearing thin, and Levine in particular started playing "crossover" to bridge the void.

AND eventually these got accepted into the Northern Soul playlists.

Defining a term really is unique to you in many ways.

Nobody rules ok on this.

Defining Soul music is just as personal.

Ed

Thankyou Ed!

So in one sentence...........................................................................?? what i gather from what you are saying then is that:

 

"Crossover is "always" modern soul , but some records were and are played and appreciated by the  Northern soul fans"

 

If this is correct? if so i  shall submit it to the Oxford English. If not, just shoot me 

 Thankyou again

.

 

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Baz Atkinson said:

The British Soul Scene has always been obsessed with defining the music in its own quirky way . A scene that calls modern soul a record from the seventies onwards must have a tinch of pure irony to it ? 
My understanding of the genre is that it’s that period in soul music from 1969 where the production benefitted from slightly more sophisticated arrangement and generally did not sound as hard as some of the more gritty hard soul from the sixties . 
J J Barnes I’ve got to get rid of you is generally accepted as one that epitomises the sound but to be honest there are tens of thousands . 
We used to have literally thousands posted daily on here in the crossover thread . 
Any one with any logic might just go for calling it Soul Music however it just cuts out all the confusion ? 

 

showing as a 'popular post' 

 

[Baz Atkinson]

23 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Thankyou Ed!

So in one sentence...........................................................................?? what i gather from what you are saying then is that:

 

"Crossover is "always" modern soul , but some records were and are played and appreciated by the  Northern soul fans"

 

If this is correct? if so i  shall submit it to the Oxford English. If not, just shoot me 

 Thankyou again

.

 

What has crossover got to do with modern soul ? Plus who cares if there appreciated by northern soul fans ? Actually referring to northern soul these days is like signing a death warrant ( it has so many connotations ) . 
Sone of these connotations usually mean worn out oldies and baggy trousers , more often than not ? 

[Shinehead]

I think the Voices From The Shadows article on x over as already stated by Chalky got the definition spot on .

Good thing about this site is most people who come on.seem to have got tastes in all kind of soul music .

To me I have no preference to any style of soul , a record whatever style I like that's enough for me .

 

 

[Baz Atkinson]

Just now, Shinehead said:

I think the Voices From The Shadows article on x over as already stated by Chalky got the definition spot on .

Good thing about this site is most people who come on.seem to have got tastes in all kind of soul music .

To me I have no preference to any style of soul , a record whatever style I like that's enough for me .

 

 

I agree it sometimes just takes a while to get there , if it’s soulful it’s soul music right, that includes all genres that are defined by our good selves ? 

[Soulsearch]

5 minutes ago, Shinehead said:

I think the Voices From The Shadows article on x over as already stated by Chalky got the definition spot on .

Good thing about this site is most people who come on.seem to have got tastes in all kind of soul music .

To me I have no preference to any style of soul , a record whatever style I like that's enough for me .

 

 

Thankyou, i completely agree with you and exactly where i am at also!! - i simply Just wanted to know what "crossover" actually means.

As i said in my joining blog one of my favourite songs ever happens to be Jolene by Dolly Parton - Beat that - that's not even soul!!

 

[Soulsearch]

16 minutes ago, Baz Atkinson said:

What has crossover got to do with modern soul ? Plus who cares if there appreciated by northern soul fans ? Actually referring to northern soul these days is like signing a death warrant ( it has so many connotations ) . 
Sone of these connotations usually mean worn out oldies and baggy trousers , more often than not ? 

 

I think you missed my point. My question simply being "what is crossover?" and trying to understand it - That was all i asked. 

I am into absolutely everything, Modern, boogie, two step, jazz, reggae, northern, rare groove, house, grime and some pop? - even some classical!!!

 

Thankyou

 

[Wheelsville1]

6 minutes ago, Soulsearch said:

Thankyou, i completely agree with you and exactly where i am at also!! - i simply Just wanted to know what "crossover" actually means.

As i said in my joining blog one of my favourite songs ever happens to be Jolene by Dolly Parton - Beat that - that's not even soul!!

 

Baz has hit the nail on the head when using Jj Barnes as an example of cross over. When the term cross over was originally used,it was narrowed down to songs recorded between 1968 and 1972. Chris. 

[Chalky]

25 minutes ago, Baz Atkinson said:

What has crossover got to do with modern soul ? Plus who cares if there appreciated by northern soul fans ? Actually referring to northern soul these days is like signing a death warrant ( it has so many connotations ) . 
Sone of these connotations usually mean worn out oldies and baggy trousers , more often than not ? 

It was nothing to do with Modern Soul at the time

[Keamus]

Anyone got a copy of Voices from the Shadows with Rod Dearlove’s lengthy piece on crossover they could scan and post? Love to read it again. My copies of Voices disappeared a long time ago!

[Chalky]

4 minutes ago, Keamus said:

Anyone got a copy of Voices from the Shadows with Rod Dearlove’s lengthy piece on crossover they could scan and post? Love to read it again. My copies of Voices disappeared a long time ago!

I thought I had posted the relevant pages in the past.  Will see if I still have them in my photos on the ipad. 

[Chalky]

[Keamus]

Brilliant. Many thanks. That’s my bedtime reading sorted!

[Tomangoes]

68 to 72 about right.

Evolution took place.

As I stated earlier just use motown releases as a working example. Its a ball of confusion.

Modern soul? That would be the last couple of years then? Or some might say 72 onwards?

I mean 1972 to 2021 is a big timespan. The whole jazz funk revolution got swallowed up and is almost forgot about in terms of mainstream plays.

In someways though musical style has stood still. More and more new releases are essentially copy cat styles of whats gone before. Retro? Call it what you like. Maybe there's nowhere new left to go and still be revered by the "scene" as we know it.

Ed

 

[Soulfulmerlin]

Always thought was more funky edged from Chicago , and other emerging Soul States . Anyway . Makes interesting reading on boring Wednesday night . 

[Amsterdam Russ]

Crossover (in my view) simply relates to tunes that "crossover" in the evolution oflate 60s/early 70s soul music styles. Tunes from the late 60s often foreshadow the sound of the early 70s, and often tunes from the early 70s still are still influenced by the late 60s soul styles .

It's simply the retrospective blending of two musical rivers - and the natural progression and development from one decade to another. 

[Hill868]

If you need to ask what is crossover, have you really got a proper appreciation of different tempos and varied styles of SOUL music played on the scene ?

[Chalky]

10 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Baz has hit the nail on the head when using Jj Barnes as an example of cross over. When the term cross over was originally used,it was narrowed down to songs recorded between 1968 and 1972. Chris. 

Of a particular tempo though, mid tempo primarily. 70s dancers were just that, 70s dancers, not crossover. 

[Steviehay]

i originally thought crossover was modernish if thats the right word that was/were played in the modern rooms that crossed over into the the northern rooms its very very rare that it does this vise versa ,i'll get me coat .........  

[Mal C]

I remember saying to Pete Smith, that 'Margie Joseph - One More Chance' was a great crossover record, which it is IMO, you can imagine his response...   laughing

Ive always thought of it as the period in the late sixties where the sound started to change into what was the seventies, not to say there are not any 7ts crossover records, there are loads, but the kind of genesis of 'Crossover' is that late sixties period, production was becoming better, and that gave these pre seventies tracks a different feel to the sixties sound of 66 say...

something like that...

Edited October 21, 2021 by Mal C

[Soulfulmerlin]

32 minutes ago, Mal C said:

I remember saying to Pete Smith, that 'Margie Joseph - One More Chance' was a great crossover record, which it is IMO, you can imagine his response...   laughing

Ive always thought of it as the period in the late sixties where the sound started to change into what was the seventies, not to say there are not any 7ts crossover records, there are loads, but the kind of genesis of 'Crossover' is that late sixties period, production was becoming better, and that gave these pre seventies tracks a different feel to the sixties sound of 66 say...

something like that...

Just in process of buying this from Jacko . Beautiful record . 

[Drew3]

7 hours ago, Hill868 said:

If you need to ask what is crossover, have you really got a proper appreciation of different tempos and varied styles of SOUL music played on the scene ?

Possibly not or maybe most definitely; however, the OP has every right to ask if not the need!!!

Regards.

Drew.

[Soulsearch]

7 hours ago, Hill868 said:

If you need to ask what is crossover, have you really got a proper appreciation of different tempos and varied styles of SOUL music played on the scene ?

Yes

[Girdwoodinc]

A lot of folks still think crossover is walking from the main room to the side room