Do re-issues affect values of originals?

[Soulsearch]

Dear Anybody,

I am a newbie, here and am i hoping "all about the soul" is the correct venue for my question!

I was one of the original Rare Groove collectors a long long time ago ie Dingwalls in Camden Lock/Shake and fingerpop et al, had a moderately valuable collection mainly of 7" including Phil Flowers, Flowers (both) and Alex Brown amongst many many others - did love a few Northern bits too.

I sold these throughout the years for buying a car then a house then mortgage, children etc etc. Compared to todays prices (i see) for almost nothing

Anyway, enough waffling, my question being: Do people feel in general that reissues (legit of course) either increase, decrease or have no/little effect on the value of Originals? - I am talking about the rarer stuff here really, ie say records valued from £200-£2,000.

It doesn't affect me really at the moment , but may do if i start collecting again. My tastes are very eclectic now, more into the X Over/modern soul and a bit more Northern than i used to. My current favourites (soul wise) being The Exits on Taurus - both sides and again, both sides on the JP Robinson Blue Candle 7 - all four tracks are pretty new to my ears and of course "re-issues". But i also like ABBA and Dolly Parton too especially Jolene  AMAZING song!

Thankyou :)

 

 

 

[Soulsearch]

38 minutes ago, Dax McGuinness said:

Dear Anybody,

I am a newbie, here and am i hoping "all about the soul" is the correct venue for my question!

I was one of the original Rare Groove collectors a long long time ago ie Dingwalls in Camden Lock/Shake and fingerpop et al, had a moderately valuable collection mainly of 7" including Phil Flowers, Flowers (both) and Alex Brown amongst many many others - did love a few Northern bits too.

I sold these throughout the years for buying a car then a house then mortgage, children etc etc. Compared to todays prices (i see) for almost nothing

Anyway, enough waffling, my question being: Do people feel in general that reissues (legit of course) either increase, decrease or have no/little effect on the value of Originals? - I am talking about the rarer stuff here really, ie say records valued from £200-£2,000.

It doesn't affect me really at the moment , but may do if i start collecting again. My tastes are very eclectic now, more into the X Over/modern soul and a bit more Northern than i used to. My current favourites (soul wise) being The Exits on Taurus - both sides and again, both sides on the JP Robinson Blue Candle 7 - all four tracks are pretty new to my ears and of course "re-issues". But i also like ABBA and Dolly Parton too especially Jolene  AMAZING song!

Thankyou

Sorry The Exits on "Gemini" - Taurus?

 

 

 

[Dim]

The Exits on Gemini (Under the Street Lamp /You got to Have Money) is not a reissue. You may be talking about Ace/Kent's recent release of it where they reproduce the label faithfully. 

My view is that reissues have a negligible effect, if any, as collectors will always want the originals be they from  US or UK or indeed other countries in some cases. 

[Chalky]

Nope and in some cases having the opposite effect with prices of originals rising

[Leicester Boy]

Doubt it my cecil washington was 10 pound of ebay the originals are  slightly more.

[Soulsearch]

Thankyou Guys,

Thanks for the comments and good to know although i have been told NOT to become a collector again and enjoy my past memories  (its a different game nowadays).

Things in 25/30 years have changed so much either you cant find the originals anyway, even if you do the prices appear astronomical!!  Example: i know price wise not astronomical but The Exits on Gemini a "mint" copy being a £150-200 record and to my eyes actually for what is a pretty common record?, there are a good few around (much prefer the Money side myself )

2 hours ago, Dim said:

The Exits on Gemini (Under the Street Lamp /You got to Have Money) is not a reissue. You may be talking about Ace/Kent's recent release of it where they reproduce the label faithfully. 

My view is that reissues have a negligible effect, if any, as collectors will always want the originals be they from  US or UK or indeed other countries in some cases. 

 

[Solidsoul]

5 hours ago, Dax Mcguinness said:

Thankyou Guys,

Thanks for the comments and good to know although i have been told NOT to become a collector again and enjoy my past memories  (its a different game nowadays).

Things in 25/30 years have changed so much either you cant find the originals anyway, even if you do the prices appear astronomical!!  Example: i know price wise not astronomical but The Exits on Gemini a "mint" copy being a £150-200 record and to my eyes actually for what is a pretty common record?, there are a good few around (much prefer the Money side myself )

 

Interesting topic.  You can collect originals without spending too much money.

There are plenty of originals of great records still available.

If i had to start again, I think I could put together a nice little collection for myself, without going bankrupt!

It's different if you want to DJ with originals, then you might have to break the bank!

Edited October 17, 2021 by D9 Ktf

[Soulsearch]

 No Djing for me! - yes its trying to find the records i love and in pretty unplayed condition. I went into a "soul" record shop, he gave me 3 large full boxes of 7" to sift through and said these are the "well known rare ones". Out of about 1000 records i recognised two!!?? - i can only put that down to 30 years of being "out" of the scene/new discoveries and just the sheer amount of vinyl out there.

My very first record i brought not too long ago when i decided to build up a small collection again was the Tears by Ms Shannon, I paid £20 for it, this was one of two i recognised in the boxes - He was asking £180 for it????. The other one being i think im in love Mayberry movement which i brought for £60. I currently have a grand total of six records-LOL

Therefore my point being that i am trying to source records which "haven't" been re-issued, but as there is so much being re-issued perhaps i am missing the point and perhaps one day almost everything will be re-issued, so if values are affected adversely then maybe i am doing it wrong and should just be buying the re-issues as they come - i don't want to throw money away. 

Yes, i waffle a bit

[Soulsearch]

22 minutes ago, Dax Mcguinness said:

 No Djing for me! - yes its trying to find the records i love and in pretty unplayed condition. I went into a "soul" record shop, he gave me 3 large full boxes of 7" to sift through and said these are the "well known rare ones". Out of about 1000 records i recognised two!!?? - i can only put that down to 30 years of being "out" of the scene/new discoveries and just the sheer amount of vinyl out there.

My very first record i brought not too long ago when i decided to build up a small collection again was the Tears by Ms Shannon, I paid £20 for it, this was one of two i recognised in the boxes - He was asking £180 for it????. The other one being i think im in love Mayberry movement which i brought for £60. I currently have a grand total of six records-LOL

Therefore my point being that i am trying to source records which "haven't" been re-issued, but as there is so much being re-issued perhaps i am missing the point and perhaps one day almost everything will be re-issued, so if values are affected adversely then maybe i am doing it wrong and should just be buying the re-issues as they come - i don't want to throw money away. 

Yes, i waffle a bit

PS - just for the "record",  in no way am i against re-issues in fact the complete opposite. Question purely relating to the value/expense of the originals

[Neil Austin]

5 hours ago, Dax Mcguinness said:

PS - just for the "record",  in no way am i against re-issues in fact the complete opposite. Question purely relating to the value/expense of the originals

 

5 hours ago, Dax Mcguinness said:

PS - just for the "record",  in no way am i against re-issues in fact the complete opposite. Question purely relating to the value/expense of the originals

Hi dax 

i would suggest you take a good look at

popsyke for values on the 45s your looking for , even though prices are changing , it does give a good feel for

the history of both originals and re-issues sales prices over the last 10/15 years .

check in with the dealers , such as soulmine ir manship they are always

happy to help .

personally I like to buy originals , only

some are now so expensive, that a reissue is the only option ,

still there plenty of good soul at a good

price around , happy hunting 

Hope that helps 

 

[Soulsearch]

Thankyou Neil,

Yes i will do that. Knowing what i am like i do have that real collector/ownership bug and no way a money making thing (i think its a male thing?).

I am going to tread carefully because i know record collecting can easily become a very slippery slope!!

What prompted me to ask all this in the first place was my toothache about a year ago. After 4 Paramols and 2 big bottles of beer i decided at the spare of the moment to purchase "a" soul 45 for the grand total of £1250.00!!!!! - I do love it though.

Please don't ask me what the 7" was/is for fear of being mocked!! - Am i happy i did it? - not really as i defo couldn't afford it hence still paying it off on my CC.

It has since been re-issued hence my "original question" being posted :).

Original Question perhaps should have been "Do i need to seek professional help?" and maybe i am safer going for reissues?.

Big Thanks again 

 

[Neil Austin]

16 hours ago, Dax Mcguinness said:

Thankyou Neil,

Yes i will do that. Knowing what i am like i do have that real collector/ownership bug and no way a money making thing (i think its a male thing?).

I am going to tread carefully because i know record collecting can easily become a very slippery slope!!

What prompted me to ask all this in the first place was my toothache about a year ago. After 4 Paramols and 2 big bottles of beer i decided at the spare of the moment to purchase "a" soul 45 for the grand total of £1250.00!!!!! - I do love it though.

Please don't ask me what the 7" was/is for fear of being mocked!! - Am i happy i did it? - not really as i defo couldn't afford it hence still paying it off on my CC.

It has since been re-issued hence my "original question" being posted :).

Original Question perhaps should have been "Do i need to seek professional help?" and maybe i am safer going for reissues?.

Big Thanks again 

 

Hi dax ,

we have all been there and over paid for

records , I purchased a mala promo of

paris blues , only to find later it had a hair line running all the way through.

hard lessons, tread carefully there are 

lots of great people around who will help, this site is a good place to ask.

plenty of knowledgable soulies will

step up .

hapoy collecting 

Neil 

[Amsterdam Russ]

Broadly speaking, "reissues", I think, drive up the prices of originals. The more people buy the reissue of a track (if it proves to be popular), the more others with deeper pockets, and the desire to own originals, seek to show their perceived higher position in the pecking order of show-off DJs and collectors.

[Soulsearch]

Dear All,

BIG thanks for your replies, I guess from responses/what i have read its like anything. The Mona Lisa (there are more than one actually!!) is not going to be worth any less when you can buy a print.

OK, So, really it depends on what it is to an extent. Just 2 "completely" random examples below! 

I know no real high value but if Gloria Shannon Tears was 2nd pressed/reissued, surely without a doubt it would significantly reduce the value of the "original" simply because there are already 800 copies floating about (500 issues/300 promos out there) 

whereas......................................................

If Carl Halls what about you were re-issued even on a legit Columbia 7" it probably wouldn't change the value of the original i.e still very rare, a lot older and a proven genuine classic and to an extent an important (LOL) historical object?

Thankyou

[Amsterdam Russ]

3 minutes ago, Dax Mcguinness said:

OK, So, really it depends on what it is to an extent. Just 2 "completely" random examples below! 

I know no real high value but if Gloria Shannon Tears was 2nd pressed/reissued, surely without a doubt it would significantly reduce the value of the "original" simply because there are already 800 copies floating about (500 issues/300 promos out there) 

whereas......................................................

If Carl Halls what about you were re-issued even on a legit Columbia 7" it probably wouldn't change the value of the original i.e still very rare, a lot older and a proven genuine classic and to an extent an important (LOL) historical object?

No, and No again. There have been boots of Carl Hall's "What about.." for some years. The 'value' of the original has only gone higher.

Are you thinking about "reissuing" some 45s?

[Julianb]

59 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Broadly speaking, "reissues", I think, drive up the prices of originals. The more people buy the reissue of a track (if it proves to be popular), the more others with deeper pockets, and the desire to own originals, seek to show their perceived higher position in the pecking order of show-off DJs and collectors.

I'm old enough to remember when bootlegs drove down the price of originals. Jeff King and his Soul Sounds, Simon Soussan, Selectadisc, OOTP releases etc.

I snagged an original Sandi Sheldon demo around 1971 for £8 only for it to be booted and available for 90p the following   week.  Nobody was then interested in the original

Thankfully things have changed for the better

[Soulsearch]

 LOL! :))- Nope, i am a health worker in UK for NHS

"Just" my original post ie its been a very very long time since i was a "collector", abt 30 years ago, im just trying to get some upto date info on the market as it seems to have changed completely!!

Never ever seen a Carl Hall boot or real one comes to think of it - A few promos only.

Actually, my next new post maybe should be "Are there any boots which you cant tell even up against the original? - Has it come to that yet??

[Soulsearch]

3 minutes ago, Dax Mcguinness said:

 LOL! :))- Nope, i am a health worker in UK for NHS

"Just" my original post ie its been a very very long time since i was a "collector", abt 30 years ago, im just trying to get some upto date info on the market as it seems to have changed completely!!

Never ever seen a Carl Hall boot or real one comes to think of it - A few promos only.

Actually, my next new post maybe should be "Are there any boots which you cant tell even up against the original? - Has it come to that yet??

PS Although, if so you wouldnt know it was a boot anyway ?? - afterthought comment:)

[Timillustrator]

1 hour ago, Julianb said:

I'm old enough to remember when bootlegs drove down the price of originals. Jeff King and his Soul Sounds, Simon Soussan, Selectadisc, OOTP releases etc.

I snagged an original Sandi Sheldon demo around 1971 for £8 only for it to be booted and available for 90p the following   week.  Nobody was then interested in the original

Thankfully things have changed for the better

It's a complex market, BITD the only way to hear a record was to buy it; so simple supply and demand - the demand was for a track, more supply reduced demand and therefore cost. Follows the normal laws of economics. Now the added complexity is that originals are bought by collectors either for love, for investment or to DJ with. The presence or not of a reissue won't affect the first two and may affect the third depending on where they're DJing.

This is an almost completely different market to the "average" punter who may just want to hear a song now and again. In this case a range of issues come into play - how tech savvy they are, how bothered about "owning" something, how much they want to listen to it. I'd say the presence of a reissue would influence this market quite a lot but even this will be age related, younger people who aren't into the particular morals of a scene will just listen on Spotify or rip an MP3 off YouTube and not be so fussed with having a physical object. 

 

[Soulsearch]

ALL such valid points and not really a black and white answer - its a melting pot of differing reasons.

OK then, following the veering off slightly discussion of "boots" relating to my post, another question which perhaps i should post as a new question on Forum.

I collect art also. With art collecting pieces NEED providence - This is one of THE most important element of buying and owning an artwork ie history of said piece/where did it come from and can it be traced back anywhere/any written proof?.

With this in mind i was thinking about records also. As vinyl (for the sake of this rare soul vinyl esp 45s) one day and i am certain will be the case is that boots will appear especially as there are "expert" fakers for almost anything and everything and the records are so good you wont be able to tell the boot from the real one.

As vinyl it appears is increasing at a ridiculous rate especially the rare/valuable stuff surely like anything else will be.

Do rare/valuable soul collectors need to record them on some kind of Database? ie if someone suddenly comes up with 30 copies of a very very  rare record (still V rare) and says they came from an attic in the States from a guy who was the cafe worker/engineer at said vinyl plant, does their word just be taken for granted?? (surely this will/has happened?) - the value of these record collections as a whole surely runs into millions and millions worldwide.

Perhaps this should be a different/new forum question? or am i just losing the plot and is a ridiculous comment???? If so, just ignore.

I am a newbie to this site and i am excitable

 

 

[Solidsoul]

59 minutes ago, Dax Mcguinness said:

ALL such valid points and not really a black and white answer - its a melting pot of differing reasons.

OK then, following the veering off slightly discussion of "boots" relating to my post, another question which perhaps i should post as a new question on Forum.

I collect art also. With art collecting pieces NEED providence - This is one of THE most important element of buying and owning an artwork ie history of said piece/where did it come from and can it be traced back anywhere/any written proof?.

With this in mind i was thinking about records also. As vinyl (for the sake of this rare soul vinyl esp 45s) one day and i am certain will be the case is that boots will appear especially as there are "expert" fakers for almost anything and everything and the records are so good you wont be able to tell the boot from the real one.

As vinyl it appears is increasing at a ridiculous rate especially the rare/valuable stuff surely like anything else will be.

Do rare/valuable soul collectors need to record them on some kind of Database? ie if someone suddenly comes up with 30 copies of a very very  rare record (still V rare) and says they came from an attic in the States from a guy who was the cafe worker/engineer at said vinyl plant, does their word just be taken for granted?? (surely this will/has happened?) - the value of these record collections as a whole surely runs into millions and millions worldwide.

Perhaps this should be a different/new forum question? or am i just losing the plot and is a ridiculous comment???? If so, just ignore.

I am a newbie to this site and i am excitable

 

 

If you have the definite original record to compare with the suspected copy, you can usually tell the difference.

The plastic they use now is different from the plastic used in the 60's and early 70's. They don't make plastic like that anymore. The print would have to be the same font/style and the paper quality the same. Just small markings can give them away.  It's not as easy as it first appears, as collectors and dealers have been looking at these records for 50 years!

Edited October 18, 2021 by D9 Ktf

[Soulsearch]

Thankyou

When you say "usually" is that always? What about the 80s? - There are some VERY VERY expensive 80s rarities out there - I reckon i am overthinking these things?

I remember about 30 years ago, Flowers 7" used to be £150 thereabouts and i remember then, two different/suspect 7s were floating around London.

One you could tell fairly easily

The other was pretty much impossible, even the matrix from what i remember? was identical.  I remember as i  used to meet a record dealer in Camden Market and he had a good few which was odd as it was a known rarity even then. With it also came the other Flowers 7". They were £100 and £70 respectively.

[Soulsearch]

1 minute ago, Dax Mcguinness said:

Thankyou

When you say "usually" is that always? What about the 80s? - There are some VERY VERY expensive 80s rarities out there - I reckon i am overthinking these things?

I remember about 30 years ago, Flowers 7" used to be £150 thereabouts and i remember then, two different/suspect 7s were floating around London.

One you could tell fairly easily

The other was pretty much impossible, even the matrix from what i remember? was identical.  I remember as i  used to meet a record dealer in Camden Market and he had a good few which was odd as it was a known rarity even then. With it also came the other Flowers 7". They were £100 and £70 respectively.

PS Maybe they were the real deal? - if so i am stupid as i could have brought about twenty