Northern Souls's Claim To Fame

Following on from the Radio 4 show today, I have paraphrased one of the contributors quotes:

""Working class people in England, saved a segment of American music that was well worth saving, we built a culture up of our own and were never influenced by anything on the outside, we did it & we did it for ourselves and thats probably northern souls claim to fame".

Apart from substituting Great Britain for England, I would whole-heartedly agree with the above.

But maybe you disagree or have a better description....

Col.

I like that quote too Colin. I have to agree, everything about northern soul I do for me and me alone.

  ? Soulgirl ? said:

I like that quote too Colin. I have to agree, everything about northern soul I do for me and me alone.

Yes, through our truly selfish wants & desires, we achieved something that on reflection turned out to be quite philanthropic.

philanthropic.... I've never been called that before

  ♫ Soulgirl ♫ said:

philanthropic.... I've never been called that before

oooohhh,is it naughty

Bazza

  bazza said:

oooohhh,is it naughty

Bazza

I fear that we might be experiencing an insight into what life might be like inside an old aged peoples home.

"...we built a culture up of our own and were never influenced by anything on the outside..."

Let's not fool ourselves here!

The scene was built on black American music, much of which was already ten years old by the time the scene had really developed.

And the music was made at least four thousand miles away.

It was someone else's culture that we borrowed. We also copied fashions, dancing and language. I don't think "Right on brother" was a phrase invented by white working-class youths in Lancashire.

As time progressed, the scene was also influenced by other outside cultures - including "disco", for example, which was part of an American gay sub-culture before it became a mainstream thing.

Yes, I suppose we developed our own sub-culture but it was very much influenced by other cultures.

And the very fact that it was someone else's culture made it seem more romantic to me - in the same way that so many American youths were fascinated by The Rolling Stones or The Beatles.

Paul Mooney

  millbrand said:

"...we built a culture up of our own and were never influenced by anything on the outside..."

Let's not fool ourselves here!

The scene was built on black American music, much of which was already ten years old by the time the scene had really developed.

And the music was made at least four thousand miles away.

It was someone else's culture that we borrowed. We also copied fashions, dancing and language. I don't think "Right on brother" was a phrase invented by white working-class youths in Lancashire.

As time progressed, the scene was also influenced by other outside cultures - including "disco", for example, which was part of an American gay sub-culture before it became a mainstream thing.

Yes, I suppose we developed our own sub-culture but it was very much influenced by other cultures.

And the very fact that it was someone else's culture made it seem more romantic to me - in the same way that so many American youths were fascinated by The Rolling Stones or The Beatles.

Paul Mooney

In that way Northern Soul in Great Britain can be compared to the english language then (Hey if Dave R can compare it to milk or antiques roadshow,...)

The English language has begged stolen and borrowed and even buggered a few other languages to become the 'international language of choice'.

Northern Soul was influenced but not guided by other influences, and a totally unique movement emerged.

What I'd like Northern Soul's claim to fame to be is despite the repeated attempts by the media to infiltrate and understand our culture, we have resisted (on the whole) their efforts to turn us into customers, and Northern Soul into brand. Its still a scene totally ruled by devotees rather than A&R men with large PR accounts. If that isnt something to be proud of, I dont know what is.

  in town Mikey said:

In that way Northern Soul in Great Britain can be compared to the english language then (Hey if Dave R can compare it to milk or antiques roadshow,...)

The English language has begged stolen and borrowed and even buggered a few other languages to become the 'international language of choice'.

Northern Soul was influenced but not guided by other influences, and a totally unique movement emerged.

What I'd like Northern Soul's claim to fame to be is despite the repeated attempts by the media to infiltrate and understand our culture, we have resisted (on the whole) their efforts to turn us into customers, and Northern Soul into brand. Its still a scene totally ruled by devotees rather than A&R men with large PR accounts. If that isnt something to be proud of, I dont know what is.

top post!

  ken said:

top post!

where would we be without northern soul, it has influenced so many people, to me it is a way of life.

carnt get enough of it just love it

alfie, still keeping the faith!!

Edited February 7, 200718 yr by alfie00soul

  in town Mikey said:

In that way Northern Soul in Great Britain can be compared to the english language then (Hey if Dave R can compare it to milk or antiques roadshow,...)

The English language has begged stolen and borrowed and even buggered a few other languages to become the 'international language of choice'.

Northern Soul was influenced but not guided by other influences, and a totally unique movement emerged.

Good analogy Mikey, i like that.

I reckon Northern, like most things we take on, is a product of that typically British thing we do when we take elements from other cultures, traditions etc.. and make them our own.

I'd add curry to the list, or at least Balti and Tikka Masala. Asian in origin, now very British.

I think it's most interesting the way the 'northern Soul' scene along with the mod scene (not the music itself obviously) has been exported back to America and across the world to other countries.

  Matt Male said:

...Balti and Tikka Masala. Asian in origin, now very British.

No, they are not Asian in origin. They were products of Britain. As in fact was the concoction known as curry powder. Interestingly, Tikka Masala is now an Asian dish.

But back to Northern Soul's claim to fame, I'll go with Millbrand on this. As he points out: " the scene was built on black American music much of which was already ten years old by the time the scene was really developed." And we would be fooling ourselves if we believed that dance styles on the Northern Soul Scene were products of the Twisted Wheel, Torch, Mecca or Casino. They were fair imitations of much much earlier black American styles. And there is nothing wrong with that. Imitation is after all the sincerest form of flattery.

Edited February 7, 200718 yr by Billy Freemantle

  Billy Freemantle said:

And we would be fooling ourselves if we believed that dance styles on the Northern Soul Scene were products of the Twisted Wheel, Torch, Mecca or Casino. They were fair imitations of much much earlier black American styles.

News to me. I'd be interested to hear a bit more about this......

As a teenager late 70s I don't think I received any influence regarding 60s black culture before all-niters.

You basically had just 30 mins of pop on TV (TOTP) every week which was dominated by Slade, T-Rex, Slade etc.

  Soulsmith said:

News to me. I'd be interested to hear a bit more about this......

As a teenager late 70s I don't think I received any influence regarding 60s black culture before all-niters.

You basically had just 30 mins of pop on TV (TOTP) every week which was dominated by Slade, T-Rex, Slade etc.

Well, you also had models in other people on 'the scene' didn't you? Or did you just do your own thing? I think we can see the basis of so-called Northern Soul Dancing in black American styles like Lindy Hopping examples of which we can see today by watching the Malcolm X movie along with any historical clips of this forunner to the jitterbug. Certainly the roots of 60s Soul dance stlyes can be found in the moves of Jackie Wilson and Alvin Cash. And check out a lot of the clips that Pete Smith has uploaded to Youtube like the Radiants clip where they perform "You've been cheating". Not only Maurice and the boys but the go-go dancers too execute moves that would not have out of place at the dawn of Northern Soul.

Edited February 7, 200718 yr by Billy Freemantle

  Billy Freemantle said:

Well, you also had models in other people on 'the scene' didn't you? Or did you just do your own thing? I think we can see the basis of so-called Northern Soul Dancing in black American styles like Lindy Hopping examples of which we can see today by watching the Malcolm X movie along with any historical clips of this forunner to the jitterbug. Certainly the roots of 60s Soul dance stlyes can be found in the moves of Jackie Wilson and Alvin Cash. And check out a lot of the clips that Pete Smith has uploaded to Youtube like the Radiants clip where they perform "You've been cheating". Not only Maurice and the boys but the go-go dancers too execute moves that would not have out of place at the dawn of Northern Soul.

And Major Lance dancing to "Its The Beat"

  SteveM said:

And Major Lance dancing to "Its The Beat"

This could turn into a thread about northern soul dancing-bloody good posts on here so far

huh huh

Edited February 8, 200718 yr by kent soul club

  kent soul club said:

This could turn into a thread about northern soul dancing-bloody good posts on here so far

  SteveM said:

And Major Lance dancing to "Its The Beat"

Yes, this an excellent example.

  Soulsmith said:

Northern Souls's Claim To Fame

Following on from the Radio 4 show today, I have paraphrased one of the contributors quotes:

""Working class people in England, saved a segment of American music that was well worth saving, we built a culture up of our own and were never influenced by anything on the outside, we did it & we did it for ourselves and thats probably northern souls claim to fame".

Apart from substituting Great Britain for England, I would whole-heartedly agree with the above.

But maybe you disagree or have a better description....

Col.

Hi All

Sums it up well, Col.

Whatever the analogy, I'm pleased to have experienced it & I'm proud to be a part of It.

Top Stuff, reflecting on what has been a success born out of many 7 inch failures.

The records were in a lot of cases, even forgotten by the artist and would never have been given a second chance by the record companies.

Quality deserves a second chance, has that ever happened in any other genre where the scene dictates what should be re-released,

via the Northern DJ's, the dancers etc and not spoon fed with the titles the record companies want to Plug.

Edited February 8, 200718 yr by 45cellar

  Billy Freemantle said:

Well, you also had models in other people on 'the scene' didn't you? Or did you just do your own thing? I think we can see the basis of so-called Northern Soul Dancing in black American styles like Lindy Hopping examples of which we can see today by watching the Malcolm X movie along with any historical clips of this forunner to the jitterbug. Certainly the roots of 60s Soul dance stlyes can be found in the moves of Jackie Wilson and Alvin Cash. And check out a lot of the clips that Pete Smith has uploaded to Youtube like the Radiants clip where they perform "You've been cheating". Not only Maurice and the boys but the go-go dancers too execute moves that would not have out of place at the dawn of Northern Soul.

Some interesting points there...

When joing a new 'scene' I think most people like myself danced in a style that 'fits in'. So yes I would have been influenced by people around me. But those people would have been influenced by dancers from the Torch, Twisted Wheel etc. No way would I have been influenced by a Malcolm X video made 20 yrs after I left Wigan

If you carry on your argument to its logical conclusion.....you'll be telling me that early black New York 80s hip-hop dance moves are just copies of northern soul ones.

My argument here is the scene evolved, it wasn't a copy.

Edited February 8, 200718 yr by Soulsmith

  Soulsmith said:

If you carry on your argument to its logical conclusion.....you'll be telling me that early black New York 80s hip-hop dance moves are just copies of northern soul ones.

No, that would be a completely illogical conclusion.

80s hip hop dance moves were unavoidably influenced by earlier black American dance styles. Naturally, the styles evolved to match the rythms of hip hop music itself an expression of the modern sensibilitesof black America. Why on earth would they be influenced by a minority dance scene in the UK that by the 1980s had evolved by incorporating influences I agree from within the scene itself but also from contemporary black American styles by way of New York Disco and the New York gay scene if wish we wish to differentiate between them?

  Soulsmith said:

Northern Souls's Claim To Fame

Following on from the Radio 4 show today, I have paraphrased one of the contributors quotes:

""Working class people in England, saved a segment of American music that was well worth saving, we built a culture up of our own and were never influenced by anything on the outside, we did it & we did it for ourselves and thats probably northern souls claim to fame".

Apart from substituting Great Britain for England, I would whole-heartedly agree with the above.

But maybe you disagree or have a better description....

Col.

That Was A Quote By Tim Brown , Every 'Cult' Is Influenced By Other Things Isnt It ?

There Was A Big Italian Influence In The Mod Scene , The End Result Is Main Thing .

Alvin Cash Was A Great Dancer , He Did A Lot Of Clubs In England In The Late 60's Early 70's , He Is Responsible For A Lot Of The Moves As People In This Country Copied Him .

  Playfair said:

Alvin Cash Was A Great Dancer ,

Any clips of Alvin doing his stuff,never seen him

Bazza

  Soulsmith said:

Some interesting points there...

When joing a new 'scene' I think most people like myself danced in a style that 'fits in'. So yes I would have been influenced by people around me. But those people would have been influenced by dancers from the Torch, Twisted Wheel etc. No way would I have been influenced by a Malcolm X video made 20 yrs after I left Wigan

I think you misunderstand the point I was making both about the Wheel, Torch etc and about the Malcolm X video. What I was saying was that dance styles at these early clubs were themselves based on black American styles and were not invented at Whitworth Street or Tunstall. The point about the Malcolm X video was that it contains easly accessible examples of an early black American dance style the Lindy Hop from which many later styles of dance developed. Once again,these later styles, from which Northern Soul directly grew, can be observed in the moves of Jackie Wilson, Alvin Cash. Major Lance and in fact in many of the Youtube clips that Pete S uploaded.

great thread guys. & what about the presence of black GI's in the UK?

kids in clubs, I'm talking about the period 1945-1965, must have been impressed by

their moves. I think that most of us would admit that, apart from the R&R period,

the swinging 60's brought 'expression' onto the dancefloor. I also think that the UK mod movement clearly aped what was 'happening' in the USA. black artists exhorted us to do the duck, the twine, the freeze, the hully-gully, the monkey, the boogaloo, the swim etc, & dance styles changed on a weekly basis. to suggest that that was homegrown is absurd. we drew from it, like you draw water from a well & you ain't gonna miss your water, till your well run dry, oh' yes...

  Billy Freemantle said:

What I was saying was that dance styles at these early clubs were themselves based on black American styles and were not invented at Whitworth Street or Tunstall.

How do you know they were 'based' on American styles Billy? Just because one dance looks like another it doesn't automatically mean it was directly influenced. Two styles which look similar can emerge separately without influencing each other surely? Plus since the music is the same, it makes sense people anywhere would dance in a similar way? I think you're just making an assumption, unless you know for a fact, but where is your evidence, other than that they resemble earlier styles?

Who's to say they didn't invent some styles? Give them credit for something eh?

I'd like to think Northern dancing, whilst i admit is obviously not completely original, grew into a style not seen anywhere.

Edited February 8, 200718 yr by Matt Male

I listened to the show and I think Tim was trying to communicate the fact that not only did we take the music to our hearts but that had we not done so much of the work of the artists would not have been fully appreciated. No one told us to like it. We didn't pick it up from so called celebrity role models. It happened in a time when communications between Britain and the US were much more complicated than they are now. We found in the music the quality the artists had tried to get across and regardless of whether it sold first time or not we judged it on its merits and saved it from oblivion. Should we be proud of that? Damn right we should.

I was also struck by how well spoken Jo Wallace was

Edited February 8, 200718 yr by ged parker

just try asking tobi lark/legend if she feels she was saved from oblivion.

Jed's & Matt's posts above are spot on. Both far more eloquently put than mine.

I'm sure that we can all agree though, that in some small way we were all involved in saving "a segment of American music that was well worth saving". Happy days.

Edited February 8, 200718 yr by Soulsmith

  Matt Male said:

How do you know they were 'based' on American styles Billy? Just because one dance looks like another it doesn't automatically mean it was directly influenced. Two styles which look similar can emerge separately without influencing each other surely? Plus since the music is the same, it makes sense people anywhere would dance in a similar way? I think you're just making an assumption, unless you know for a fact, but where is your evidence, other than that they resemble earlier styles?

Who's to say they didn't invent some styles? Give them credit for something eh?

I'd like to think Northern dancing, whilst i admit is obviously not completely original, grew into a style not seen anywhere.

I know it seems nice to believe that 'credit' has to be given to a certain extent. But surely to give credit where it is not due is to deprive those who really deserve it. I do know from talking to people who were 18, 19 and 20 in around 1969 (at which time I was 16 myself) that THEY were aware of the debt they owed to the dancing of people like Alvin Cash. So no I am not just making an assumption. This is not to say that the average Wheel or Torch goer had any idea that a debt was owed to anyone. But that doesn't mean that the debt was not there. As Soulsmith has rightly said when you 'join a scene you try to fit in'. This means that the conformers were paying attention to what others were doing and following suit. The point I'm making is that somewhere in the mists of Northern Soul history somebody had adopted certain styles which others in turn adopted. It's very clear to me and I think to anyonew who looks at the evidence (and at the nature of trends in general )that the origin of it all can be traced to black America.

Edited February 8, 200718 yr by Billy Freemantle

  Billy Freemantle said:

I know it seems nice to believe that 'credit' has to be given to a certain extent. But surely to give credit where it is not due is to deprive those who really deserve it. I do know from talking to people who were 18, 19 and 20 in around 1969 (at which time I was 16 myself) that THEY were aware of the debt they owed to the dancing of people like Alvin Cash. So no I am not just making an assumption. This is not to say that the average Wheel or Torch goer had any idea that a debt was owed to anyone. But that doesn't mean that the debt was not there. As Soulsmith has rightly said when you 'join a scene you try to fit in'. This means that the conformers were paying attention to what others were doing and following suit. The point I'm making is that somewhere in the mists of Northern Soul history somebody had adopted certain styles which others in turn adopted. It's very clear to me and I think to anyonew who looks at the evidence (and at the nature of trends in general )that the origin of it all can be traced to black America.

Tonight, I'm in a non argumentative mood. I've no real idea who is Alvin Cash is, so how about posting a clip & we can both settleback & enjoy it.

Really enjoying this thread.Does any one know if theres a BBC website or anywhere else we might be able to listen to the original radio 4 show?

  Soulsmith said:

News to me. I'd be interested to hear a bit more about this......

As a teenager late 70s I don't think I received any influence regarding 60s black culture before all-niters.

You basically had just 30 mins of pop on TV (TOTP) every week which was dominated by Slade, T-Rex, Slade etc.

Thats your play list aint it Colin

  kent soul club said:

Really enjoying this thread.Does any one know if theres a BBC website or anywhere else we might be able to listen to the original radio 4 show?

Just tried to upload an mp3 of this but it doesn't seem to have worked

The 8mb file is the one you need. Can't work out how to remove the first one,which is just a bit.

Soul_Self_satisfaction.mp3

Edited February 9, 200718 yr by Billy Freemantle

  Soulsmith said:

Tonight, I'm in a non argumentative mood. I've no real idea who is Alvin Cash is, so how about posting a clip & we can both settleback & enjoy it.

Philly Freeze - alvin cash -

14510 refosoul

  Billy Freemantle said:

Just tried to upload an mp3 of this but it doesn't seem to have worked

The 8mb file is the one you need. Can't work out how to remove the first one,which is just a bit.

That is without doubt one of the best explanations of our scene I have heard,people that know what they are talking about giving their opinions,usually these sort of things are full of idiots that have'nt a clue what its about. none of the "wigan was the centre of it all crap",them that know,know that was'nt true.and to all the R&B Knockers,R&B was in at the start of this wonderful scene of ours

Bazza

Edited February 9, 200718 yr by bazza

  BEARSY said:

Thats your play list aint it Colin

Now that made me smile

  Billy Freemantle said:

Philly Freeze - alvin cash -

14510 refosoul

Cheers for that, but was hoping to see video rather that audio.

Had a quick look on You Tube, but couldn't see anything for Alvin Cash.

Can anybody help?