Manship’s copy of Cecil Washington on Prophonics

[Blackpoolsoul]

13 minutes ago, Julianb said:

I get asked to play this by the organiser of a local event, which I do for charity, as it is her favourite tune.

Last time I was there, another DJ played it on a 'bootleg. The organiser was absolutely furious and told him to $%#& off!

Which bootleg I wonder ? 

[Julianb]

On 10/10/2021 at 08:19, Blackpoolsoul said:

Which bootleg I wonder ? 

The vg copy on ebay didn't take long to sell at $3700 earlier today 

[Frankie Crocker]

4 hours ago, Julianb said:

The vg copy on ebay didn't take long to sell at $3700 earlier today 

Maybe the bootleg spinner bought it in a hurry to ease a guilty conscience?

[Julianb]

1 hour ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Maybe the bootleg spinner bought it in a hurry to ease a guilty conscience?

 If he has, it's his first 'original 45' purchase!

[Frankie Crocker]

Finally, countdown can begin. Nibblers in the last week pushed the bids to £2.7K then £2.8K, but now tonight’s auction has finished, combatants can really get stuck in.

[Davey S]

On 06/10/2021 at 07:46, Dave Pinch said:

most of the bids will run from 6.00pm to 6.30pm imo

Yep I think biddibg will go mad at the end and I'm sticking with £8500 + postage .

Dave.

[Frankie Crocker]

Bids have now sneaked past the £3K mark. It’s now ‘squeaky bottom’ time as Sir Alex once called it. Even my pulse is beginning to quicken and I’m not putting in a bid.

[Chalky]

9 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Bids have now sneaked past the £3K mark. It’s now ‘squeaky bottom’ time as Sir Alex once called it. Even my pulse is beginning to quicken and I’m not putting in a bid.

Are you on commission? 

[Frankie Crocker]

Just now, Chalky said:

Are you on commission? 

Nay lad. But I do have a very keen interest...more about this later...

[Frankie Crocker]

Jumped up from c£3K to £3.5K then £4.5K during Saturday evening. This would have been an eye-popping finishing value, yet there’s still three and a half days to go.

[Davey S]

10 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Jumped up from c£3K to £3.5K then £4.5K during Saturday evening. This would have been an eye-popping finishing value, yet there’s still three and a half days to go.

Might have to revise my guess of 8500.

Dave.

[Ted Massey]

Can I ask an honest question about this why is it going up so much surely it is not one the major rare Detroit items I think the buyer is likely to regret his purchase

[Blackpoolsoul]

6 minutes ago, Ted Massey said:

Can I ask an honest question about this why is it going up so much surely it is not one the major rare Detroit items I think the buyer is likely to regret his purchase

It's always been 2.5K record max Ted and I agree with you 100%

[Tomangoes]

Makes a trip to scour the goodwill / second hand shops in Detroit a viable business opportunity again..

Ed

[Wheelsville1]

1 hour ago, Ted Massey said:

Can I ask an honest question about this why is it going up so much surely it is not one the major rare Detroit items I think the buyer is likely to regret his purchase

I totaly agree with you Ted,this is not and never has been a particularly rare record.Like yourself,i think the buyer will regret the amount they pay for it. 

[Frankie Crocker]

1 hour ago, Ted Massey said:

Can I ask an honest question about this why is it going up so much surely it is not one the major rare Detroit items I think the buyer is likely to regret his purchase

Hi Ted. Hope you’re well. Good to hear from you.

I think the buyer will be very pleased with their purchase. If you’re a millionaire, the price really doesn’t matter. If it’s your favourite record, you’ve really got to have it, even if you can’t afford it. Sometimes you have to overpay for a particular record just because it’ll be even more expensive next time it pops up for sale on the open market.

I never regret buying a record. I do regret NOT buying certain records. There will be several collectors who’ll regret not winning this particular copy.

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Hi Ted. Hope you’re well. Good to hear from you.

I think the buyer will be very pleased with their purchase. If you’re a millionaire, the price really doesn’t matter. If it’s your favourite record, you’ve really got to have it, even if you can’t afford it. Sometimes you have to overpay for a particular record just because it’ll be even more expensive next time it pops up for sale on the open market.

I never regret buying a record. I do regret NOT buying certain records. There will be several collectors who’ll regret not winning this particular copy.

And this is why the collecting scene is fcuked for the vast majority of ordinary collectors.  Records like this being stupidly over hyped.  Yes it is desirable but there have been many others much more desirable but you haven't over hyped those like this one. It is rare but not that rare.  It is a record that should be within reach of many but prices that it is heading towards has taken it out of reach of the many, just like many other records that aren't really rare.  There is overpaying but not to this extent.

People are being had for mugs, treated like they are incompetent fools who know sod all by far too many.

I don't blame John, far from it, its those believing the hype with far too much money and very little sense I blame, cheque book Djs with no imagination.

Why such interest?  Is it your disc?  

 

[Davey S]

3 hours ago, Ted Massey said:

Can I ask an honest question about this why is it going up so much surely it is not one the major rare Detroit items I think the buyer is likely to regret his purchase

Personally I think these people paying stupid money either weren't around when these things were in relative quantity or they simply have enough spare cash to pay the Final price and don't care what that is .

[Chalky]

Just now, Davey S said:

Personally I think these people paying stupid money either weren't around when these things were in relative quantity or they simply have enough spare cash to pay the Final price and don't care what that is .

Probably both

[Frankie Crocker]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

And this is why the collecting scene is fcuked for the vast majority of ordinary collectors.  Records like this being stupidly over hyped.  Yes it is desirable but there have been many others much more desirable but you haven't over hyped those like this one. It is rare but not that rare.  It is a record that should be within reach of many but prices that it is heading towards has taken it out of reach of the many, just like many other records that aren't really rare.  There is overpaying but not to this extent.

People are being had for mugs, treated like they are incompetent fools who know sod all by far too many.

I don't blame John, far from it, its those believing the hype with far too much money and very little sense I blame, cheque book Djs with no imagination.

Why such interest?  Is it your disc?  

 

No, it’s not my disc. Valid enquiry though. I have only ever bought one record in a Manship auction, and have never got him to auction anything on commission.

I don’t think I have overhyped the record, only described it as I see it, a jolly good sound that’s pretty hard to pick up these days.

Sure, I have contributed to the discussion surrounding this record, as have plenty of others. I hope I haven’t overhyped records in the past, but I guess there’s always a first time for everything.

The record collecting scene has changed out of all recognition, but I don’t think you can blame John Manship’s auctions for this. Perhaps his sales blurb may encourage bidders to pile in harder, but he’s only trying his best for the clients.

Anyway, why do you sound so cross? Were you planning on buying the record?

[Chalky]

13 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

No, it’s not my disc. Valid enquiry though. I have only ever bought one record in a Manship auction, and have never got him to auction anything on commission.

I don’t think I have overhyped the record, only described it as I see it, a jolly good sound that’s pretty hard to pick up these days.

Sure, I have contributed to the discussion surrounding this record, as have plenty of others. I hope I haven’t overhyped records in the past, but I guess there’s always a first time for everything.

The record collecting scene has changed out of all recognition, but I don’t think you can blame John Manship’s auctions for this. Perhaps his sales blurb may encourage bidders to pile in harder, but he’s only trying his best for the clients.

Anyway, why do you sound so cross? Were you planning on buying the record?

Contributed? You started the discussion and have reported the bidding process as it gas happened practically. There would have been nothing said otherwise until the auction ended and rarely have there been topics about current auction items. Thats why I wondered if the disc was anything to do with you and the hype been given. 
 

Cross? Far from it, I was quite relaxed with a bottle of red, well half a bottle left over from Saturday

Buying this I have never spent silly money on records and my days of spend several hundreds let alone several thousands are long gone. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Chalky

[Frankie Crocker]

43 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Contributed? You started the discussion and have reported the bidding process as it gas happened practically. There would have been nothing said otherwise until the auction ended and rarely have there been topics about current auction items. Thats why I wondered if the disc was anything to do with you and the hype been given. 
 

Cross? Far from it, I was quite relaxed with a bottle of red, well half a bottle left over from Saturday

Buying this I have never spent silly money on records and my days of spend several hundreds let alone several thousands are long gone. 

If you look back on Soul Source, you’ll see I continued a conversation. If I’d not started the thread, someone else would have. The record was already a topic of conversation in a previous Manship auction thread.

Plenty of auction records have been focused on in the past such as Hamilton Movement. Any record likely to fetch four figures at auction is worthy of discussion in my books.

Go easy on the red wine...look what it did for Sir Alex...

[Amsterdam Russ]

Just asking...

Is it me or is JM's sound clip of Cecil pitched up to some degree?

[Neil Austin]

5 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Just asking...

Is it me or is JM's sound clip of Cecil pitched up to some degree?

Russ , price is also pitched up  

[Amsterdam Russ]

33 minutes ago, Neil Austin said:

Russ , price is also pitched up  

Hahaha - whatever the price, it's what the market is prepared to pay. And when a shredded Banksy goes for £18 million, you know the collecting market is in a frenzy. Good luck to JM (if it is his) or the owner selling it on commission.

These are fantastic days for sellers.

[Bo Diddley]

49 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Just asking...

Is it me or is JM's sound clip of Cecil pitched up to some degree?

Good spot Russ!

I just played the Youtube clip John posted 2 weeks ago at the same time as the auction sound file. The auction site does get ahead of the other one. 

 

[Amsterdam Russ]

12 minutes ago, Bo Diddley said:

Good spot Russ!

I just played the Youtube clip John posted 2 weeks ago at the same time as the auction sound file. The auction site does get ahead of the other one. 

 

That's better! Maybe a turntable glitch. 

[Speedlimit]

Bloody hell paid £80 for it off Jim wensoria when he sold  up sold it 3years later for £300 thought I'd over charged them .

[Blackpoolsoul]

17 minutes ago, Speedlimit said:

Bloody hell paid £80 for it off Jim wensoria when he sold  up sold it 3years later for £300 thought I'd over charged them .

Can you tell us when that all happened please

[Tomangoes]

I read something the other day...

1961 average UK house prices £2700...my birth year.

Today...£256,000.

60 years has shown a fair old increase.

This record must be 55 ish years old...and 45 since being sought after.

£30 to £3000 viable?

But £8000 is stretching it!

Ed

 

[John Hart]

Record Collector ,Oct 2021,; has a "Rarest 200 Records in the Whole Wide World " item, and at number 136 is  Cecil,, described as " Kitchen Sink " {made of randem disparate items ] valued at £2,000 !! .This is by Ian Shirley and Johnny Trunk,the same RC mag that led me on fruitless expeditions in the uk, believing uk NS rarities could be had for a fraction of their real value ?

After 40 years RC has finally got up to Speed on NS Values ;

     no 73 , Eddie Parker  =£3,000

     no 34. The Tomangoes= £5,000 {  not the imposter on here?}

     no15, Arthur and his Soulful Dynamics= £10,000.

     No1 , Not Telling?

            16% of records are N.S. choices.

Ps do not buy the said mag rest of content is Kitchen Sink ,instead,, top shelf cheeky  read in Newsagents ,page 88!!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ted Massey]

59 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Can you tell us when that all happened please

Jim sold up in 1988ish still have some of the prices paid to give you an idea these are a few i bought

Inspirations breakthru 250

Aspirations 80

Del Tours 80

Del larks 100

wish those times were back lol

[Tomangoes]

1 hour ago, John Hart said:

Record Collector ,Oct 2021,; has a "Rarest 200 Records in the Whole Wide World " item, and at number 136 is  Cecil,, described as " Kitchen Sink " {made of randem disparate items ] valued at £2,000 !! .This is by Ian Shirley and Johnny Trunk,the same RC mag that led me on fruitless expeditions in the uk, believing uk NS rarities could be had for a fraction of their real value ?

After 40 years RC has finally got up to Speed on NS Values ;

     no 73 , Eddie Parker  =£3,000

     no 34. The Tomangoes= £5,000 {  not the imposter on here?}

     no15, Arthur and his Soulful Dynamics= £10,000.

     No1 , Not Telling?

            16% of records are N.S. choices.

Ps do not buy the said mag rest of content is Kitchen Sink ,instead,, top shelf cheeky  read in Newsagents ,page 88!!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ouch....

I will have you know i have a re issue washpan copy signed by Mr Washington and have met the gentleman performing at Burts in Detroit...the cheek of it:)

If FW is No 1...I can repeat the above claims about him as well RIP at the Wiltshire Grand LA....along with the obligatory re issue Soul signed copy:)

Ed

 

[Rictic66]

This is one of those brilliant niter records that doesn’t necessarily suit itself to a club soul night. I always have it IMB when DJing in case it gets requested but it hasn’t for years - on the other hand it’s one of those I play at home to people who say put on a recommended NS record. It generally blows them away and sometimes into astonishment as it’s so different and powerful. When the trumpets come in right at the end - WOW. On pricing don’t know but it is one of the greatest. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Rictic66

[Chalky]

2 hours ago, John Hart said:

Record Collector ,Oct 2021,; has a "Rarest 200 Records in the Whole Wide World " item, and at number 136 is  Cecil,, described as " Kitchen Sink " {made of randem disparate items ] valued at £2,000 !! .This is by Ian Shirley and Johnny Trunk,the same RC mag that led me on fruitless expeditions in the uk, believing uk NS rarities could be had for a fraction of their real value ?

After 40 years RC has finally got up to Speed on NS Values ;

     no 73 , Eddie Parker  =£3,000

     no 34. The Tomangoes= £5,000 {  not the imposter on here?}

     no15, Arthur and his Soulful Dynamics= £10,000.

     No1 , Not Telling?

            16% of records are N.S. choices.

Ps do not buy the said mag rest of content is Kitchen Sink ,instead,, top shelf cheeky  read in Newsagents ,page 88!!  

Even if the RC is nearer the mark value wise I would suggest it is way out on the rarity.  Just 33 records rarer than the Tomangoes I doubt the Tomangoes nor Cecil would even make the top  200 rarest? Does the article say how the compilers arrived at this chart? 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Chalky

[Tomangoes]

200 rarest must be under 100 playable copies left?

Ed

[Steve G]

I happen to know of several collectors who are multi millionaires and so do some of you I'd wager. Which means there will be more of these folk out there that we don't know of. To those guys a few extra K on something they want is chump change.  And they really don't care if "the good old boys" call them dumb / mugs etc. That is the harsh reality of the collecting world we inhabit today whether we like it or not.

I like Cecil and do play it sometimes (NM), although I think its best days are probably behind it now.

[David Moore]

With a day to go someone has already bid £4,500 for it , I think it will go for over £5,000 , possibly over six grand

[Blackpoolsoul]

18 hours ago, Steve G said:

I happen to know of several collectors who are multi millionaires and so do some of you I'd wager. Which means there will be more of these folk out there that we don't know of. To those guys a few extra K on something they want is chump change.  And they really don't care if "the good old boys" call them dumb / mugs etc. That is the harsh reality of the collecting world we inhabit today whether we like it or not.

I like Cecil and do play it sometimes (NM), although I think its best days are probably behind it now.

Seems strange to me that a multi millionaire would buy something to potentially lose money in the future.

Steve Jeffries told me (many years ago) he had lots of them who pay silly money. "Why would they look at auction sites and bid when they are loaded" (as he smiled in a knowing way)(I am sure John feels the same), which implies to me that these dealers would just phone their millionaire contacts first and sell them

I wish these people would admit who they are rather than hide, so we can question the motives

Are they DJ's, wannabe DJ's, profiteers or just shelf slotters ?

Maybe they don't even like Soul

Like you say Steve they probably don't care (which makes me question why I bother to comment )

[Steve G]

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Seems strange to me that a multi millionaire would buy something to potentially lose money in the future.

Steve Jeffries told me (many years ago) he had lots of them who pay silly money. "Why would they look at auction sites and bid when they are loaded" (as he smiled in a knowing way)(I am sure John feels the same), which implies to me that these dealers would just phone their millionaire contacts first and sell them

I wish these people would admit who they are rather than hide, so we can question the motives

Are they DJ's, wannabe DJ's, profiteers or just shelf slotters ?

Maybe they don't even like Soul

Like you say Steve they probably don't care (which makes me question why I bother to comment )

I'd say these people do  like soul music and do want records without giving a hoot how much they cost. I have worked with people who owned Ferrarris, expensive boats, ran successful businesses etc. Trust me they didn't give a fig about depreciation in value on hobbies, it is all about having something they deem to be special to them. It is in their psyche, if they want something, they'll make sure they get it. The rise of the superrich in industries that barely existed when we were young has also been phenomenal and helped create a group of people who live very different lives to the rest of us. To try and analyse motives etc. is I am afraid futile. 

[Blackpoolsoul]

38 minutes ago, Steve G said:

I'd say these people do  like soul music and do want records without giving a hoot how much they cost. I have worked with people who owned Ferrarris, expensive boats, ran successful businesses etc. Trust me they didn't give a fig about depreciation in value on hobbies, it is all about having something they deem to be special to them. It is in their psyche, if they want something, they'll make sure they get it. The rise of the superrich in industries that barely existed when we were young has also been phenomenal and helped create a group of people who live very different lives to the rest of us. To try and analyse motives etc. is I am afraid futile. 

 

Well if you are correct then I won't swear, but they obviously were not very well educated in business. We will meet them on their way down perhaps and buy there stuff cheap

Funny though

Edited October 19, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[John Hart]

Karl ,regarding your F.A.Q, as to RC,s source info Ian Shirley alludes to : Omega auctions ,E Bay ,Discogs ,Thousands of recordshops and dealers websites plus face to face sales ,Wow ! such dilligence.

Finally nobody asked what Numero Uno in Rc,s Top 200  Rarest records  ,well of course it was those loveable scouse Moptops , their 10 " acetate, cut at Kensington studios ,for 17shillings and 6 pence "That,ll Be THe Day ", is worth £250 ,000 !

P.S , Lee jeffries Frank Wilson at Number 4 worth  still a mere £100,000,not yet the " Solid Gold Investment" the writer claims?

[Chalky]

41 minutes ago, John Hart said:

Karl ,regarding your F.A.Q, as to RC,s source info Ian Shirley alludes to : Omega auctions ,E Bay ,Discogs ,Thousands of recordshops and dealers websites plus face to face sales ,Wow ! such dilligence.

Finally nobody asked what Numero Uno in Rc,s Top 200  Rarest records  ,well of course it was those loveable scouse Moptops , their 10 " acetate, cut at Kensington studios ,for 17shillings and 6 pence "That,ll Be THe Day ", is worth £250 ,000 !

P.S , Lee jeffries Frank Wilson at Number 4 worth  still a mere £100,000,not yet the " Solid Gold Investment" the writer claims?

Thanks John.  I’ll pick the magazine up and have a proper read. If they had done their research though many of those wouldn’t be in there on rarity alone.  We could probably come up with plenty far rarer just for the northern stuff. 

57 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 

Well if you are correct then I won't swear, but they obviously were not very well educated in business. We will meet them on their way down perhaps and buy there stuff cheap

Funny though

Plenty with money who couldn’t care about the price, especially in Japan. 

[Blackpoolsoul]

9 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Thanks John.  I’ll pick the magazine up and have a proper read. If they had done their research though many of those wouldn’t be in there on rarity alone.  We could probably come up with plenty far rarer just for the northern stuff. 

Plenty with money who couldn’t care about the price, especially in Japan. 

If it goes for much more it will be more blooming more expensive than the house it was recorded in (record is in better condition though)

https://www.estately.com/listings/info/666-beach-street--1

Edited October 19, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Mark Jones]

As with all the price conversations it all gets a bit mad. I'm certainly not a millionaire as I've been a BT/Openreach engineer for 41 years and still am. But as you get older and manage to save a few pounds over the decades it's not until my post 40 years I've been able to afford the big hitters. Finally managed to get a mint one of these not too many years ago. Wasn't cheap but seems a good investment by looks! 

 

[Weingarden]

I bought an unplayed copy three years ago. It felt reckless and unwise to be spending the amount I spent at the time, but I decided to go for it. If only all my investments did this well (in the short term, at any rate).

[The Tempest]

£4867 

[Tomangoes]

A bargain then....about $6.5k.....

Ed

[Blackpoolsoul]

1 minute ago, The Tempest said:

£4867 

Not the price some thought then £17 increments 

In John's excitement (he will blame his secretary's typing skills), did you spot that Richard Searling "Unleased" it on the Wigan Crowd

[Davey S]

OH MY GOD.

Dave.