Patti and the lovelites

[Geeselad]

Just seen Dave pinches put a want out for this, did I miss something? No US copies on discogs, but I thought this was still a cheap record. When did it shoot up? If it has. Surely this must be one of most common records to gain value. 

[Tlscapital]

17 minutes ago, Geeselad said:

Just seen Dave pinches put a want out for this, did I miss something? No US copies on discogs, but I thought this was still a cheap record. When did it shoot up? If it has. Surely this must be one of most common records to gain value. 

What record of Patti + Lovelites ?

[Bossfourpart1]

Title ?

[Winsford Soul]

1 hour ago, Geeselad said:

Just seen Dave pinches put a want out for this, did I miss something? No US copies on discogs, but I thought this was still a cheap record. When did it shoot up? If it has. Surely this must be one of most common records to gain value. 

Where's,the wants ad. I can't see it or is it on FB ? 

[Geeselad]

On fb mate. 

Apologies, 'get him off my conscience' 

[Tlscapital]

My belief tells me that with the "northern soul" revival from years ago the 'get it off from my conscience' TOP 500 (is it ? ) first took interest amongst the deep pockets returnees for whom a record below £100 is not of interest. If some dealers had the good idea to put it at £100 then it would become noticeable and/or enviable...

Lovelites fan from my prime (not completist mind you) I never got my head around that 'git it off' side. Like many BIG northern sounds, not really soulful FWIW, aiming mostly for the dance floors. Evidently I got to realise to sometimes prefer the soul sides to the jocks sides and always flipped my records. And here the flip 'what a day' is WOW ! 

Could it be that ? An old £15 or about record on list in the nineties. Even cheaper before. Priced because it was played in the UK, then issued on Grapevine and the american copies not as plenty about as their other releases. Northern soul 'the return of the ugly' first shot @£100. Funky sweet floater's 'late arrival' second shot @£200 ?

Edited August 21, 2021 by Tlscapital

[Still Diggin]

I am inclined to think that some folks get 'My Conscience' which would appear to be their first 45 on Lovelite from 1970 and cheap as chips, mudled up with 'Get it off my conscience' from 1975 which was the last of five releases on the logo or maybe just forgot they had two with a similar title. The later title also seemed to show up from time to time, but for some reason trashed. I agree with the previous post regarding the quality of 'What a day', superior to a whole heap of stuff that gets played out from that time capsule.

[Amsterdam Russ]

Just a bit of eye candy relative to The Lovelites before Patti...

According to Wikipedia, "How can I tell..." sold 55,000 copies in Chicago and 400,000 nationally, and even reached #15 in the Billboard soul chart.

What's interesting about the acetate of this common record is that the flip is the sublime "I love you (yes I do)", which only appeared on their unsuccessful LP "With love from the Lovelites".

 

[Dave Pinch]

it seems loads are missing the point on this one. while my conscience ( different song) on the yellow label with the face is very common and one of the earlier 45s by them and one i keep getting offered probably in the hope that i am insane and will pay up to 250 for that. the one i am after for a pal of mine is the red label copy from 1975 with oh what a day on the flip.. this flip is also very fashionable probably more so than the wigan/ mecca biggie.. i wont sell him my own copy which was either £3 or £5  30+ years ago when like most 70s things pusherman, bileo, flame and king, jan jones, skull snaps were all pretty available and cheap back then..today is a different matter particularly with the flip which is actually what my pal wants it for is having its time in the sunshine.. ive been having trouble sourcing a copy of it so we had to up the ante a little bit

[Dave Pinch]

20 hours ago, Geeselad said:

Just seen Dave pinches put a want out for this, did I miss something? No US copies on discogs, but I thought this was still a cheap record. When did it shoot up? If it has. Surely this must be one of most common records to gain value. 

as i posted above no commoner than a ton of other 70s tunes from that time frame..and i would say rarer than any of the ones i actually mention in my post above geese

[Tlscapital]

9 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Just a bit of eye candy relative to The Lovelites before Patti...

According to Wikipedia, "How can I tell..." sold 55,000 copies in Chicago and 400,000 nationally, and even reached #15 in the Billboard soul chart.

What's interesting about the acetate of this common record is that the flip is the sublime "I love you (yes I do)", which only appeared on their unsuccessful LP "With love from the Lovelites".

 

Well well well Russ, are you telling us that you're the proud owner of that acetate then ?  Long ago played the LP in a shop and got so disappointed by that 'I love you (yes I do)' only LP track that without much of trouble I simply put back in the sales racks. Not much regret still.

Even to this day as to my ears it's only a lovely tune without much vocal effort like Patti got us accustom to... I even enjoy better the 'hey stars of tomorrow' (sing along side) for flip. A guilty secret home spin of mine... None the less a very nice'N'rare piece of Patti and her Lovelites. 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Tlscapital

[Dave Pinch]

1 minute ago, Tlscapital said:

Well well well Russ, are you telling us that you're the proud owner of that acetate then ?  Long ago played the LP in a shop and got so disappointed by that 'I love you (yes I do)' only LP track that without much of trouble I simply put back in the sales racks. Not much regret.

Even to this day as to my ears it's only a lovely tune without much vocal effort like Patti got us accustom to... I even enjoy better the 'hey stars of tomorrow' (sing along side) for flip. A guilty secret home spin of mine... None the less a very nice'N'rare piece of Patti and her Lovelites. 

i know that you know what i`m talking about tim

[Amsterdam Russ]

31 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Well well well Russ, are you telling us that you're the proud owner of that acetate then ?  Long ago played the LP in a shop and got so disappointed by that 'I love you (yes I do)' only LP track that without much of trouble I simply put back in the sales racks. Not much regret still.

Yes, it’s mine. Must admit, I wasn’t so keen on “I love you (yes I do)”, but it’s grown on me over the years and now I rather like it.

[Still Diggin]

21 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Just a bit of eye candy relative to The Lovelites before Patti...

According to Wikipedia, "How can I tell..." sold 55,000 copies in Chicago and 400,000 nationally, and even reached #15 in the Billboard soul chart.

What's interesting about the acetate of this common record is that the flip is the sublime "I love you (yes I do)", which only appeared on their unsuccessful LP "With love from the Lovelites".

 

Nice. That version is almost identical to the by Pam & Pam which got released. The arranger Johnnny Cameron also cut the record.

[Amsterdam Russ]

Pat and Pam... sounds exactly the same!

 

[Still Diggin]

I did say almost identical, but my ears are a bit rough to be honest, so maybe it is identical. No clue whats going on there, Pat & Pam are Lucky Cordells Daughter's according to discogs, not Patti Hamilton. So this is like that other Chicago head scratcher Cindy & the Playmates 'Portrait of gods love' being the same record as Eight Minutes ' I love you' LP track on Perception. I'm sure someone did or does know.

[Tlscapital]

44 minutes ago, Still Diggin said:

I did say almost identical, but my ears are a bit rough to be honest, so maybe it is identical. No clue whats going on there, Pat & Pam are Lucky Cordells Daughter's according to discogs, not Patti Hamilton. So this is like that other Chicago head scratcher Cindy & the Playmates 'Portrait of gods love' being the same record as Eight Minutes ' I love you' LP track on Perception. I'm sure someone did or does know.

Both Pat & Pam and the Lovelites 'I love you yes I do' use the same backing track. Although their mixes are utterly treated differently for altogether another ambiance or 'movie scenery'.

As for what's the connection between the release of the Lovelites (commercially only on their LP though...) and Pat & Pam who knows, the composer's name C.B. Allen could be a clue...

The Lovelites 'how can I tell my mum and dad' was issued in September 1969. If the acetate is prior this means it was recorded around the same time... Before the LP that was in 1970 !

On the LP the credited composers are C.B. Allen & Johnny Cameron. On the Pat & Pam 45 whose date of release is unknown only C.B. Allen. 45cat. gives 1971 but who gave that date ? Why ?

The name C.B. Allen for sole composer also appears on 3 other tracks of the Lovelites LP and also appears for the last Lock 45 release by The Spoilers 'the spoilers rap' produced by J.C. !

If Pat & Pam was first then J.C. added his name out of vanity on the Lovelites LP. Or if Pat & Pam came after likely C.B. Allen made it a vanity revenge thing and intentionally erase J.C.'s name.

FWIW the Lovelites non 45 issued 'a certain kind of lover' also uses Diane Cunningham backing track but once again with a serious remix job making it barely recognizable without comparison.

As for Cindy and the Playmates utter sublime 'portrait' and the average (IMO LOL but 4real) Eight Minutes 'I love you', Jim Porter and his labels Jay-Pee, Perception and Today is the connection.

[Amsterdam Russ]

5 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Both Pat & Pam and the Lovelites 'I love you yes I do' use the same backing track. Although their mixes are utterly treated differently for altogether another ambiance or 'movie scenery'.

Beyond a variation in the mix, they both sound identical - although must admit I don't have the P&P version on vinyl, so can only use YouTube to compare. Can you outline any differences between the two?

[Tlscapital]

10 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Beyond a variation in the mix, they both sound identical - although must admit I don't have the P&P version on vinyl, so can only use YouTube to compare. Can you outline any differences between the two?

The Lovelites version presents the high frequencies upfront with the guitar tempo clear with shine through strings in place while the Pat & Pam mix pushes the low frequencies upfront with the drum for tempo. All the breaks remain pretty similar though. The Lovelites vocals are more relaxed and sultry while Pat & Pam are more crude.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Tlscapital
punctuation

[Amsterdam Russ]

33 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

The Lovelites version presents the high frequencies upfront with the guitar tempo clear with shine through strings in place while the Pat & Pam mix pushes the low frequencies upfront with the drum for tempo. All the breaks remain pretty similar though. The Lovelites vocals are more relaxed and sultry while Pat & Pam are more crude.

I agree with the differences in the sound of the mix of the backing. The vocals sound the same - again, with just a bit of a difference in the mix. So... at best, a minorly different take from the same session, or the same one with just some different emphasis courtesy of the mixing desk?

[The Yank]

1 hour ago, Tlscapital said:

 

As for Cindy and the Playmates utter sublime 'portrait' and the average (IMO LOL but 4real) Eight Minutes 'I love you', Jim Porter and his labels Jay-Pee, Perception and Today is the connection.

Jim Porter did not own the Perception and Today labels. I don't know if he leased his masters or had a production agreement with them. Both labels were New York based while Porter worked out of Chicago. 

[Tlscapital]

6 hours ago, The Yank said:

Jim Porter did not own the Perception and Today labels. I don't know if he leased his masters or had a production agreement with them. Both labels were New York based while Porter worked out of Chicago.

Writing too fast just before bed time. Vigilance and critical state of mind is down due to the pillow appeal. Copying dully like a fool what seemed strange to me from discogs.

OK, you're right and I'm evidently not. More likely some sort of deal in production/distribution between the Perception Ventures, Inc. and Jim Porter.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Tlscapital

[Dave Pinch]

9 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Beyond a variation in the mix, they both sound identical - although must admit I don't have the P&P version on vinyl, so can only use YouTube to compare. Can you outline any differences between the two?

sounds like theres an extra vocal on the lovelites than on pat and pam

 

[Amsterdam Russ]

58 minutes ago, Dave Pinch said:

sounds like theres an extra vocal on the lovelites than on pat and pam

 

Yes, I think you're right. That would make sense with the Lovelites being a trio, although on closer listening, I'm sure there's a vocal overdub as well as there could be more than three voices.

Interesting article on the group here:

https://chicagoreader.com/music/girl-group-the-lovelites-hit-big-but-never-became-stars-outside-chicago/

As far as Pat & Pam are concerned, I found a bit of info courtesy of a 2012 blog post on "Derek's Daily 45". He says:

Quote

In researching P&P for this post, I learned that they're twins! How appropriate! Turns out that they are the daughters of Chicago DJ Lucky Cordell; himself a very powerful jock at Chicago's WVON ("the Voice Of The Negro"- probably the most influential soul station in the nation during the '60's).

Turns out Pat & Pam were VERY young at the time of these records, but one would never know, given the confidence of their performance.
 

http://dereksdaily45.blogspot.com/2012/07/pat-pam-i-love-you-yes-i-do-bw-im-one.html

[The Yank]

Besides being a DJ and Program Director at WVON, Lucky was also the executive secretary of the National Association of Television and Radio announcers- 

 

[Still Diggin]

22 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Both Pat & Pam and the Lovelites 'I love you yes I do' use the same backing track. Although their mixes are utterly treated differently for altogether another ambiance or 'movie scenery'.

As for what's the connection between the release of the Lovelites (commercially only on their LP though...) and Pat & Pam who knows, the composer's name C.B. Allen could be a clue...

The Lovelites 'how can I tell my mum and dad' was issued in September 1969. If the acetate is prior this means it was recorded around the same time... Before the LP that was in 1970 !

On the LP the credited composers are C.B. Allen & Johnny Cameron. On the Pat & Pam 45 whose date of release is unknown only C.B. Allen. 45cat. gives 1971 but who gave that date ? Why ?

The name C.B. Allen for sole composer also appears on 3 other tracks of the Lovelites LP and also appears for the last Lock 45 release by The Spoilers 'the spoilers rap' produced by J.C. !

If Pat & Pam was first then J.C. added his name out of vanity on the Lovelites LP. Or if Pat & Pam came after likely C.B. Allen made it a vanity revenge thing and intentionally erase J.C.'s name.

FWIW the Lovelites non 45 issued 'a certain kind of lover' also uses Diane Cunningham backing track but once again with a serious remix job making it barely recognizable without comparison.

As for Cindy and the Playmates utter sublime 'portrait' and the average (IMO LOL but 4real) Eight Minutes 'I love you', Jim Porter and his labels Jay-Pee, Perception and Today is the connection.

I hope your comment on the Eight Minutes 'I love you' is not based on the fact the LP is worth £15 and the kemp 45 is around £400 ?. The backing track is the same, the Vocal is near identical. The main difference is the sound quality is far superior on the LP. I have had three copies of the Kemp 45 in the past two were clean, But both the clean copies suffered classic Chicago little logo syndrome (inferior sound quality). It's a nice 45 to have, but I stop when it comes to kiding myself when it comes to listening pleasure.If you can hear something I can't then good luck to ya chap.

[Joesoap]

C B Allen (mentioned above) is Christopher B Allen who also wrote Little Jimmy Gandy 'I'm Not Like the Others' (Roulette). Also done by the Lovelites (unissued came out on a CD I believe, then a Grapevine 2K 7"). Also done by a group called North, South, East and West on 20th Century.  

Another connection between these three and the other artists mentioned on this thread -Pat & Pam, The Eight Minutes, Cindy and the Playmates is that they were all child / teenage artists. Looks like whoever was behind these releases was trying to come up with the next Jackson 5 or 5 Stairsteps and trying this material with different groups of kids!

Edited August 24, 2021 by Joesoap

[Geeselad]

On 22/08/2021 at 08:41, Dave Pinch said:

it seems loads are missing the point on this one. while my conscience ( different song) on the yellow label with the face is very common and one of the earlier 45s by them and one i keep getting offered probably in the hope that i am insane and will pay up to 250 for that. the one i am after for a pal of mine is the red label copy from 1975 with oh what a day on the flip.. this flip is also very fashionable probably more so than the wigan/ mecca biggie.. i wont sell him my own copy which was either £3 or £5  30+ years ago when like most 70s things pusherman, bileo, flame and king, jan jones, skull snaps were all pretty available and cheap back then..today is a different matter particularly with the flip which is actually what my pal wants it for is having its time in the sunshine.. ive been having trouble sourcing a copy of it so we had to up the ante a little bit

Well thanks for this at least, I've got a red one, but have always wanted the yellow one with photos, just love artist photos on labels. Better play the flip then after 30 years.  .

[Tlscapital]

7 hours ago, Still Diggin said:

I hope your comment on the Eight Minutes 'I love you' is not based on the fact the LP is worth £15 and the kemp 45 is around £400 ?. The backing track is the same, the Vocal is near identical. The main difference is the sound quality is far superior on the LP. I have had three copies of the Kemp 45 in the past two were clean, But both the clean copies suffered classic Chicago little logo syndrome (inferior sound quality). It's a nice 45 to have, but I stop when it comes to kiding myself when it comes to listening pleasure.If you can hear something I can't then good luck to ya chap.

Rarity of the sound is what brought us to seek our music outside of the "mainstream". As a crate digger excitement of the discovery record or the long wanted one is the drive. As a collector who listen to his records and don't keep those I don't like, no matter how rare, in vogue or 'in-demand', my ears and eyes is ALL that tells them appart being a 'keeper' or not.

Had the LP of the Eight Minutes once but couldn't be bothered as I was happy enough the few 45's I have of the group. Gave it to a friend who will enjoy it much more than I could. But when I first heard the Cindy & the Playmates 'a portrait of god's love' I was instantly seduced. And I care not so much for the 'don't stop this train' side that is a good club sound regardless.

The singing may be similar to you. Not to me. The backing track is the same. And although the mix is similar it is not the same. The Cindy & Playmates mix is much louder, punchier with 'Oomph' and "vibrant" than the Eight Minutes backing track. None is superior as they are not to compare. A bit like apple and pears. Compare 'take my love' on the 7" and on the LP if you want.

Is this a 'different strokes for different folks' situation in regard of the mastering differences between the Cindy & the Playmates with the Eight Minutes ? Not only a good versus a bad mastering job at stake ? Maybe. And like the Maxell cassettes old advert with Desmond Decker's board subtitles of his 'Israelites' hit ; me ears are alight ! if ever someone wandered if I was not ear impaired

In all honesty 7" singles always had a bigger place in my heart than 12" LP's. Although I always had both. And still do. But from a listening point of view, as in "audiophilia" if you will, those two very different format are not to be so simply compared. Both have their merits and flaws. Yet both require the adequate phono gear to benefit their merits and diminish their flaws.

[Dave Pinch]

10 hours ago, Still Diggin said:

I hope your comment on the Eight Minutes 'I love you' is not based on the fact the LP is worth £15 and the kemp 45 is around £400 ?. The backing track is the same, the Vocal is near identical. The main difference is the sound quality is far superior on the LP. I have had three copies of the Kemp 45 in the past two were clean, But both the clean copies suffered classic Chicago little logo syndrome (inferior sound quality). It's a nice 45 to have, but I stop when it comes to kiding myself when it comes to listening pleasure.If you can hear something I can't then good luck to ya chap.

if anything cindy and the playmates is good if not a little screechy at the side of the eight minutes

[Solidsoul]

There were other records that were more plentyful, that have gone up in value as much or if not more.

"Get It Off My Conscience" on Lovelite was available back in the day, but not common enough to go into soul packs. "My Conscience" was a lot more common but you couldn't  get anything for them, even though like most of the Lovelites tunes, it is a good soul record. 

"Get It Off My Conscience" now goes for about £150+ for a Ex condition original, which is all right to me, as it is their best Northern Soul record, judging by dance floor reaction.

Edited August 25, 2021 by D9 Ktf

[Dave Pinch]

1 hour ago, D9 Ktf said:

There are other records that were more common, that have gone up in value as much or if not more.

"Get It Off My Conscience" on Lovelite was available back in the day, but not common enough to go into soul packs. "My Conscience" was a lot more common but you couldn't  get anything for them, even though like most of the Lovelites tunes, it is a good soul record. 

"Get It Off My Conscience" now goes for about £150+ for a Ex condition original, which is all right to me, as it is their best Northern Soul record, judging by dance floor reaction.

yeh it actually seems to fly at 200 but its not all about those northern dance floors as theres probably as much demand for the flip these days.. i couldnt get anyone to sell tho so offered a little more on my mates behalf and managed to weed one out