White promos of new releases

[Geeselad]

Just wondered what folk think about label owners flogging the plain white promos of new releases for an extra tenner. Aren't they less costly, to produce, not having proper printed label's? Can't see them being more desirable in the future, personally.  

Edited August 20, 2021 by Geeselad

[Tomangoes]

I mentioned it previously...its a joke.

Demos are supposed to be giveaways to promote the tune.

Do you think back in the day motown ric tic Okeh sold demos?

If this trend continues...record companies will press more demos than issues....so the buyer who bought the overpriced demo has got less future re sale value. Mugs.

Ed

[tosh]

Never bothered myself and often wondered what it was all about, but we know really its just getting a few more £ out of people.

Would rather look at a nice label more than a boring white demo. 

[Winsford Soul]

Surely promo,s are to promote the forthcoming release so they should be free or cheaper . Would love to here what the record companies  that are dealing with the new releases have to say. No doubt a load of bull quoting costs etc . Simple unless your giving away to  radio stations as  demo,s ,just do release singles at whatever price. Instead of charging extra for radio station / demo's and ripping people off for nothing else but pure greed. 

[Martyn Pitt]

Demos were given out free of charge to promote the record and get it airplay, in many cases with the 60's stuff there are more demos than issues of many sounds as the record never sold in any quantity.

The current vogue is baffling, I certainly wouldn't pay extra money for them, not that I would be buying one in the first place ... apparently I don't need any more records as I have got enough ... I think that's what she said, thinking back it may have been camera lenses she was referring to.

.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Martyn Pitt

[Winsford Soul]

28 minutes ago, Martyn Pitt said:

Demos were given out free of charge to promote the record and get it airplay, in many cases with the 60's stuff there are more demos than issues of many sounds as the record never sold in any quantity.

The current vogue is baffling, I certainly wouldn't pay extra money for them, not that I would be buying one in the first place ... apparently I don't need any more records as I have got enough ... I think that's what she said, thinking back it may have been camera lenses she was referring to.

.

Martyn. Are you sure it wasn't watches aswell as the records and camera lens my friend. Place things on a higher shelf so that the lovely lilliputian Carol cannot see them 

 

[Shinehead]

Total waste of time to the record buyer they are not demos just a white label copy done for the record owner to make more money .

The odd thing is the record labels still keep producing them so the market must be there for them  so they must sell in enough quantity to make them worthwhile ,a fool and his money .

[Happy Feet]

You have to question why the need for promo's in what is a predominantly reissue market , unless a previously unreleased tune and pre-released to the media and djs only but as history as proved there seems to be a market for them , look at the prices of the early Grapevine demos and even some of the Disco Demands and again they where all known on release ,nuts.

[Geeselad]

52 minutes ago, Happy Feet said:

You have to question why the need for promo's in what is a predominantly reissue market , unless a previously unreleased tune and pre-released to the media and djs only but as history as proved there seems to be a market for them , look at the prices of the early Grapevine demos and even some of the Disco Demands and again they where all known on release ,nuts.

At least the 70's reissues have proper labels, at least. Just hope some label owners are reading. I wonder how many of these are actually used as promo and sent out to club or radio/ podcast DJ's? 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Geeselad

[Chalky]

3 hours ago, Shinehead said:

Total waste of time to the record buyer they are not demos just a white label copy done for the record owner to make more money .

The odd thing is the record labels still keep producing them so the market must be there for them  so they must sell in enough quantity to make them worthwhile ,a fool and his money .

20 or 25 demos of most releases sell out in minutes

[Shinehead]

2 minutes ago, Chalky said:

20 or 25 demos of most releases sell out in minutes

At a £10 upmark on a issue that is a fine profit and well worth their time but they are hardly demos as we know them.

[Dave Moore]

I posted this the last time this was brought up. I buy most quality new releases  but have called time on the ones that employ this tactic. I've collected promos of 45s for 45 years and won't have the piss taken out of me.  I don't even buy the issues from them now.   They've alienated a good customer and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Dave  

[Geeselad]

4 hours ago, Happy Feet said:

You have to question why the need for promo's in what is a predominantly reissue market , unless a previously unreleased tune and pre-released to the media and djs only but as history as proved there seems to be a market for them , look at the prices of the early Grapevine demos and even some of the Disco Demands and again they where all known on release ,nuts.

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Geeselad

[Andybellwood]

My understanding was that some Record labels  are selling (white label) test pressings (rather than demos)  in advance of issue being available ? 

[John Siret]

1 hour ago, Dave Moore said:

I posted this the last time this was brought up. I buy most quality new releases  but have called time on the ones that employ this tactic. I've collected promos of 45s for 45 years and won't have the piss taken out of me.  I don't even buy the issues from them now.   They've alienated a good customer and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Dave  

I've come to the same conclusion & don't bother at all. 

[Dobber]

I think its simply to appeal to the collector in us,and of course squeeze another tenner out of you! Which i suppose if its an unreleased track of soughts,then it has its own appeal! But if its a run of the mill tune thrown on a piece of vinyl then i dont see the point of the issue or demo! Just go on youtube for free if you that desperate to hear paul anka or something line that!

[Chalky]

9 hours ago, Shinehead said:

At a £10 upmark on a issue that is a fine profit and well worth their time but they are hardly demos as we know them.

No some aren't demos as we know them, some are though and I have received one today.

As for the cost being cheaper as someone intimated above, they are actually dearer so I have been told. They cost more because different art work has to be made (colour and additional text) and a high minimum number of labels has to be made and then applied.

But as said by another contributor they simply appeal to the collector in us, usually those who Dj.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Chalky

[Baz Atkinson]

Yep its a definite ploy to squeeze a another tenner but hey you dont have to "you pay your money and take your choice". The bigger issue is trying to keep up with them now as a collector i am focused on completing 2 before i go at others but the silly inflation of some of the early  releases is restrictive. 

Its a great marketplace however and there do pop up in unsuspecting places. Some that sell  on sites stand a while then others pop up on the bay i got 15 Soul Junction 45s for £2.99 each a while back,the quality control on that label is superb imho.

I think its an exciting time for collectors that have a thirst for new/unissued stuff and its refreshing buying them knowing your arse is not getting ripped out with the crazy inflated ego driven northern markert place lol. 

[Godzilla]

No mainstream music 7 inchers get demo releases these days.
Draw your own conclusions...

[Benji]

Demos and test pressings of new releases are giving the buyers a fake feeling of exclusiveness IMO.

[Mal C]

agree, its not a out right con,  but your not buying anything exclusive in my opinion, might as well get the issue of these releases...

[Geeselad]

It reminds me of buying house tunes on the 90's, half of the new UK releases I bought were on promo copies, usually at reduced prices to get them to chart and pick up sales. Dumped by reps as sale or return. 

[Richard]

4 hours ago, Geeselad said:

It reminds me of buying house tunes on the 90's, half of the new UK releases I bought were on promo copies, usually at reduced prices to get them to chart and pick up sales. Dumped by reps as sale or return. 

Yes remember lots of handwritten or rubber stamped white labels cheaper than normal issue copies

[Ady Croasdell]

23 hours ago, Winsford Soul said:

Surely promo,s are to promote the forthcoming release so they should be free or cheaper . Would love to here what the record companies  that are dealing with the new releases have to say. No doubt a load of bull quoting costs etc . Simple unless your giving away to  radio stations as  demo,s ,just do release singles at whatever price. Instead of charging extra for radio station / demo's and ripping people off for nothing else but pure greed. 

Kent don’t. When we did, like the Art Gentry 12”, they went to DJs

[Dave Moore]

5 hours ago, Ady Croasdell said:

Kent don’t. When we did, like the Art Gentry 12”, they went to DJs

Hence Ace/Kent still see the colour of my money, Sir.   

Dave 

[John Reed]

Isn't there still a rule that states that royalties do not have to be paid on demos as they're technically not meant to be for sale. So unethical label owners could be earing income on selling demos and not passing on income to the artist/writer as they would for selling issues.  Personally, i feel the selling of newly released demos unethical as these are deliberately created to extract the last bit of juice out of their priduct rather that what they were historically created for.

[Sean Hampsey]

11 hours ago, Ady Croasdell said:

Kent don’t. When we did, like the Art Gentry 12”, they went to DJs

Same here Ady. We've done a number of promos for our latest release that have only gone to DJ's and Journalists / Bloggers. If they are 'for sale' they aren't promos. If they are genuine 'promos' they are not for sale. 

[Geeselad]

5 minutes ago, Sean Hampsey said:

Same here Ady. We've done a number of promos for our latest release that have only gone to DJ's and Journalists / Bloggers. If they are 'for sale' they aren't promos. If they are genuine 'promos' they are not for sale. 

Don't think anyone has got a problem with promos that are genuinely used for that purpose. It always perplexed me in the 90's when house and contemporary soul promos were always for sale, allbeit at reduced prices, on some cases far more available to buy than actual issues of the 12.

[Md Records]

The points raised in this thread are ones we have been discussing though the year. When we started out, there were no test presses sold, people kept asking us for copies to buy, so we developed some labels and sold the few copies we had via our website on a first come first served basis, and including those sales in our royalty payments to artists.

This year we have been talking through the whole test press piece and made a decision that we where going to go back to not having them with the exception of sound quality checks. We took the decision as it was actually becoming a problem, with people asking for copies and the fact that it seemed to go against what we felt was important.  

We will still issue digipack promotional tracks to a mailing list of radio stations for promotion and we will continue this so that people can hear tracks ahead of the physical release dates, which are getting longer due to the demand for vinyl, which is part of the reason behind us only doing a short pre order when the physical stock is with us .

The first release we decided not to have any test presses on was Al Lindsey MDRE002 on our Gold label and we will have none for the releases currently in press MD115,116,117 and 118 or any releases going forwards.

Its a difficult issue as many collectors want to have all formats or the earliest format, but we can only agree with the sentiments and comments on here and don't think this the right way for MD Records - that's not to say that each label can't think and act differently and as ever its for them to decide.

 

All the best MarkNDes

[Ady Croasdell]

On 22/08/2021 at 17:35, John Reed said:

Isn't there still a rule that states that royalties do not have to be paid on demos as they're technically not meant to be for sale. So unethical label owners could be earing income on selling demos and not passing on income to the artist/writer as they would for selling issues.  Personally, i feel the selling of newly released demos unethical as these are deliberately created to extract the last bit of juice out of their priduct rather that what they were historically created for.

Yes, that is the case

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

I recently looked to make a purchase of a couple of recent releases and to be honest I like the look of the white promo label better than the issue, the issues are my least favourite colour (silly I know but it puts me off).  So I was going down the white promo route until I saw they were double the price of the stocker. They were both for sale on Discogs from the label direct, so for me it was clearly not a promo, just a money grab.

I got the hump about it and decided to buy neither the promo or the stocker.  

[Ian Stacey]

Always try to get a nice stock copy  if i see a demo ill get but prefere a stock .uk or usa 

 

 

[Dave Moore]

I think the fact that no record companies, bar the two that don't partake in this practice have contributed to the thread, says a lot. 

Dave 

[Phild]

I’ve only just seen this thread as I do t come on that often.

I produce proper printed white label promos for “some” of my releases. Not all of them.

I do them to send out to DJ’s, radio stations, magazines etc. And, yes, also to sell as a limited edition collectors item at a premium.  
 

I can’t speak for any other label, but I do no more than 10% of the production run as promos.

in the case of the latest album I put out last month - Garcia Walker & Durrell. There were 50 promo copies made. Over half of these went out to press, radio, bloggers etc. Most of the rest were sold at £30 instead of the normal £20 retail price. Got a couple left if anyone’s interested?

 

I see nothing wrong with the practice, and neither, it seems, do the vinyl buying public.

 

Also. To produce a promo with a proper printed label is more expensive than the regular stock copies. You have to get the same number of labels printed (500 pairs). I also had stickers for the album sleeve too. You have to pay an additional origination charge etc. And there is a small run charge from the pressing plant. They have to change over the labels and charge for the privilege 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Phild

[Tomangoes]

The pure irony.

Promotion copy - Not for sale.

Unless you buy a promotion copy from the record company, for more than the stock copy would cost.

Unfortunately it does sound like profiteering.

Why not just make a limited edition with a picture cover or such like to ask more than a stock price?

I always thought promotional material was tax deductible? Other record producers have indicated promotional copies are only for promotional work, so not everybody is selling them.

Ed

[Phild]

1 minute ago, Tomangoes said:

The pure irony.

Promotion copy - Not for sale.

Unless you buy a promotion copy from the record company, for more than the stock copy would cost.

Unfortunately it does sound like profiteering.

Why not just make a limited edition with a picture cover or such like to ask more than a stock price?

I always thought promotional material was tax deductible? Other record producers have indicated promotional copies are only for promotional work, so not everybody is selling them.

Ed

Most of my promo copies are for promotional use. But I will and do sell the odd few. I still usually fail to make any money on most releases though.

[Shinehead]

2 hours ago, Phild said:

 

 

Also. To produce a promo with a proper printed label is more expensive than the regular stock copies. You have to get the same number of labels printed (500 pairs). I also had stickers for the album sleeve too. You have to pay an additional origination charge etc. And there is a small run charge from the pressing plant. They have to change over the labels and charge for the privilege 

So why go to the bother of having white labels produced why not produce more stockers and give stockers away to djs and the like I would  imagine the recipient of a free copy would be thrilled to receive a stock copy .

These releases are only produced in small numbers so the production of white labels is not really needed in my opinion.

Edited September 5, 2021 by Shinehead

[Phild]

3 hours ago, Shinehead said:

So why go to the bother of having white labels produced why not produce more stockers and give stockers away to djs and the like I would  imagine the recipient of a free copy would be thrilled to receive a stock copy .

These releases are only produced in small numbers so the production of white labels is not really needed in my opinion.

To stand out from the crowd. There’s a plethora of new releases these days. And standing out can be the difference between getting a play or not.

And I don’t do just plain white labels. They are proper white label promos.

it crates a perception of both quality and value.

 

[Shinehead]

14 hours ago, Phild said:

To stand out from the crowd. There’s a plethora of new releases these days. And standing out can be the difference between getting a play or not.

And I don’t do just plain white labels. They are proper white label promos.

it crates a perception of both quality and value.

 

Sorry I meant white labels with printing on them  saying demo copy.

[Steve Ss]

19 hours ago, Phild said:

Most of my promo copies are for promotional use. But I will and do sell the odd few. I still usually fail to make any money on most releases though.

Some things never change Phil...good to see you are steadfastly losing money on the soul front...I thought it was my influence that made you lose cash....  

 

[Rick Scott]

On the test pressing side of things (white Labels), were they not just that, do a small run to test out the quality of playing surface for  blebs and dimples, sound quality etc on the vinyl that may have got on the initial pressing plates, sure i read that some where  

[Andybellwood]

For the newly launched 'Last Bastion Records', a checked (as high quality) test press 45 along with a Press Release will be used as a foc promo. Hopefully they won't be sold on by recipients. 

"Last Bastion Records - DETOUR RECORDS" http://shop.detourrecords.co.uk/epages/es785745.mobile/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es785745/Categories/Last_Bastion_Records

Edited September 6, 2021 by Andybellwood

[Phild]

3 hours ago, Rick Scott said:

On the test pressing side of things (white Labels), were they not just that, do a small run to test out the quality of playing surface for  blebs and dimples, sound quality etc on the vinyl that may have got on the initial pressing plates, sure i read that some where  

We do get test pressings done. Usually 5 copies. These are done for quality control purposes and generally have a plain white label. Although sometimes they have “Side A” on the A side. Although it doesn’t always work out that way  

 

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

I think we are talking at cross purposes here.

A test press is just that - a pressing for quality control purposes. The promo should be exactly that, sent to DJ's, dealers, radio shows etc to promote the record and is usually sent free of charge i.e. the quid-pro-quo is that you get airplay and exposure for your release.. 

I have no issue if the label wants to sell any spare test presses or promo's they have left over - just don't charge double or a large premium over and above the stocker for it.

If its affecting the economics of the release then why do any promo's at all ? I'm sure DJ's, dealers, radio shows etc would be more than happy with just a stocker if its free gratis.

In my case I could have bought as many promo's as stockers if I wanted to pay double the price directly from the label. Surely that defeats the object of the promo release ?

[Still Diggin]

21 hours ago, Phild said:

To stand out from the crowd. There’s a plethora of new releases these days. And standing out can be the difference between getting a play or not.

And I don’t do just plain white labels. They are proper white label promos.

it crates a perception of both quality and value.

 

I would like to think the value lies with in the music in the grooves, not the colour of the label. The colour of the label is my secondary consideration and in reality just an ego trip. When and if it becomes rare on either format I reckon most folks would prefere to have a nice logo to look at. I have a few genuine white label 45's from the 70's & 80's. Althought they are genuine test presses with all the correct run-out etc, I cant stand to look at them.

[Wally Francis]

So I was just mooching around and found these on a site (Simply Soul) for sale. Guess which one costs 11 pound & which one 20 pound, forgive me if I'm wrong but is black ink not cheaper than coloured ink also, It's just extracting the urine....

Edited September 22, 2021 by Wally Francis