Austin Taylor - Why Oh Why - Sprout

[Gaz T]

Austin Taylor why o why

I see John Manship is auctioning a copy of this fantastic 45

I understand its a play at the 100 club over the last few years.

It is deffo a tune that you could call a 60s newie

I personally love it, its up there with all the best RnB Northern tunes.

Congratulations to John Manship for putting the worst quality sound file up ever!

The 45 does not sound like that at all !

Anyway, my question..... has it escaped the 100 club yet?

Has anyone else played it outside of London yet?

Who found the few copys that popped up a 5 years ago?

Has it ever been played anywhere else apart from the 100 club?

Great record.

 

[Blackpoolsoul]

14 hours ago, Gaz T said:

Austin Taylor why o why

I see John Manship is auctioning a copy of this fantastic 45

I understand its a play at the 100 club over the last few years.

It is deffo a tune that you could call a 60s newie

I personally love it, its up there with all the best RnB Northern tunes.

Congratulations to John Manship for putting the worst quality sound file up ever!

The 45 does not sound like that at all !

Anyway, my question..... has it escaped the 100 club yet?

Has anyone else played it outside of London yet?

Who found the few copys that popped up a 5 years ago?

Has it ever been played anywhere else apart from the 100 club?

Great record.

 

I agree great tune

Person to ask is Ady Croasdell "on here" as he will know

[Louise]

Got a couple of copies of this out of hit in New York and to be honest found it to be a really hard sell ?

Dave

[Kevinkent]

If it's a 100 Club play it's one that's escaped me over the last 10 - 15 years.

- Kev

[Gaz T]

this 45 is up there with the top rnb bangers in my opinion.

Its as rare as the  hayes cotton 45s and has everything an rnb stomper requires 

the fact that john manship notes this is the first time he has had a copy is testament to how elusive the 45 is.

Personally, I love the record.

My question was has this ever been played outside the 100 club?

It appears not.

 

 

[Robbk]

I bought Taylor's big hit, "Push, Push", plus 3 other of his Laurie 45s.  But, I never saw "Why Oh Why", even among some rare Sprout records.  So, it must have always been quite rare.  I  But I don't like it at all.  He sounds drunk, like Screamin' Jay Hawkins did on his entire "I Put A Spell on You" LP session (which sounded weird and interesting-and decent on the ears-but "Why Oh Why" as a drunk just doesn't come off well to my ears).  The A side is a really nice New Orleans-style ballad.  If I had seen it I'd have bought it for THAT side.

[Robbk]

And what's all that garbage about Austin Taylor having actually been Ted Taylor under an alias???  The public is getting more ignorant as time moves on.  Their voices are nothing like each other's.  Austin sounds like he was born and spent his youth on some British Caribbean island (NOT Jamaica), and then spent most of the rest of his life in New Orleans, before moving to New York.  Ted was from somewhere in Oklahoma (Muskogee?), and then lived in California during most of his singing career.  Because someone who is speculating, writes it on The Internet as a FACT, it becomes a general knowledge "FACT". I've even seen totally ridiculous so-called "facts" about myself.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Robbk

[Blackpoolsoul]

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

And what's all that garbage about Austin Taylor having actually been Ted Taylor under an alias???  The public is getting more ignorant as time moves on.  Their voices are nothing like each other's.  Austin sounds like he was born and spent his youth on some British Caribbean island (NOT Jamaica), and then spent most of the rest of his life in New Orleans, before moving to New York.  Ted was from somewhere in The South (Oklahoma or Georgia?), and then lived in California during most of his singing career.  Because someone who is speculating, writes it on The Internet as a FACT, it becomes a general knowledge "FACT". I've even seen totally ridiculous so-called "facts" about myself.

 Zelma Sanders was behind this, she wrote the flip and owned the label

[Robbk]

54 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 Zelma Sanders was behind this, she wrote the flip and owned the label

Thanks, yes, I knew that.  I supplied a missing Sprout record for remastering for a Kent CD, and have or have seen most of the Sprout records.  But why did you quote my post about Ted Taylor's and Austin Taylors' biographies saying they were the same person???  Your statement seems a lot more related to my earlier post, about Taylor's Sprout record.

[Blackpoolsoul]

3 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 Zelma Sanders was behind this, she wrote the flip and owned the label

 

 

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

Thanks, yes, I knew that.  I supplied a missing Sprout record for remastering for a Kent CD, and have or have seen most of the Sprout records.  But why did you quote my post about Ted Taylor's and Austin Taylors' biographies saying they were the same person???  Your statement seems a lot more related to my earlier post, about Taylor's Sprout record.

I guess I got mixed up with the New York thing.......sorry

[Kenb]

Page 100, 'Here Comes the Night', Joel Selvin

[Gaz T]

20 hours ago, Robbk said:

I bought Taylor's big hit, "Push, Push", plus 3 other of his Laurie 45s.  But, I never saw "Why Oh Why", even among some rare Sprout records.  So, it must have always been quite rare.  I  But I don't like it at all.  He sounds drunk, like Screamin' Jay Hawkins did on his entire "I Put A Spell on You" LP session (which sounded weird and interesting-and decent on the ears-but "Why Oh Why" as a drunk just doesn't come off well to my ears).  The A side is a really nice New Orleans-style ballad.  If I had seen it I'd have bought it for THAT side.

Maybe I drink to much, but I can't hear a drunk singing.

All I can hear is an amazing Northern RnB stomper.

The fact that you have never seen this 45 over your many many years collecting is also very interesting.

It is defiantly a real rarity, also seemingly unknown at the moment.

A 45 with huge potential.

I love it, It would get me on the floor immediately !     

 

 

[Corbett80]

Don't think i've heard this out at the 100 yet either??

[Ady Croasdell]

Only played it a couple of times, really like it but it didn’t fit in with the rest of my set at the time. Paid a few Bob for it - unusual for me

[Kevinkent]

7 minutes ago, Ady Croasdell said:

Only played it a couple of times, really like it but it didn’t fit in with the rest of my set at the time. Paid a few Bob for it - unusual for me

Thanks for clearing that up Ady.  I thought my already bad memory had finally given up on me.

- Kev

[Modernsoulsucks]

On 05/07/2021 at 05:17, Robbk said:

And what's all that garbage about Austin Taylor having actually been Ted Taylor under an alias???  The public is getting more ignorant as time moves on.  Their voices are nothing like each other's.  Austin sounds like he was born and spent his youth on some British Caribbean island (NOT Jamaica), and then spent most of the rest of his life in New Orleans, before moving to New York.  Ted was from somewhere in Oklahoma (Muskogee?), and then lived in California during most of his singing career.  Because someone who is speculating, writes it on The Internet as a FACT, it becomes a general knowledge "FACT". I've even seen totally ridiculous so-called "facts" about myself.

I couldn't agree more, Bob.

Austin's real name is Austin Allegro. Ex-member of the Cadillacs. He later joined Gary Numan's band and wrote their hit single "Cars".

Tragically he died after being hit by a bus. 

I trust that sets the record straight.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Modernsoulsucks

[Robbk]

Ted Taylor DID have an alias, but it wasn't "Austin", - it was Ivory Lucky.  He used that name when he sang lead for Bob Reed's Band when they recorded for L.A.'s Melatone Records, while he was still under contact for another label (I think it was Don Robey's Duke Records).  Robey was notorious for being late on payments to his creditors and employees, and contract artists, as well.

No doubt the Ted Taylor/Austin Taylor rumour started due to both of those Soul singers having their names and photos on the same page, next to each other, and because the positioning of the printing of the names and the photos wasn't quite obvious, so the reader matched the wrong name to a photo, and then, upon seeing the same photo matched with the OTHER singer's name, on a different site,  made that important "discovery" that those two singers were "the same person", and thought it his duty to bring that "Earth shattering" news to the general public. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Robbk

[The Yank]

Or ..... It could be that someone decided that since Ted and Austin were both on Laurie around the same time, they  had to be the same person ??

 

[Robbk]

Yes, that's another possibility, and probably must have been some of the "evidence" used to start, or "substantiate" the rumour.  But clearly, none of these clever "history detectives" didn't notice that their voices were extremely different, with in-born tones that couldn't be faked-by even the best voice people, like Mel Blanc; and also they didn't notice what happened afterward (Austin having a long career staying with Laurie, and Ted being with Okeh for a long period while Austin was still with Laurie, and then with Zell Sanders' Sprout Records.  And he couldn't have signed with Okeh under the alias, because he had used both names with Laurie, for everyone to observe. 

This is why young people interested in what happened 60-100 years ago need to check with us ancient people, who were around back then, to make sure that the "discoveries" about the past aren't just seeing coincidences, and surmising things based on way too little evidence, with no cross referencing, and to use a hockey term, no cross-checking. 

[Blackpoolsoul]

3 hours ago, Robbk said:

Yes, that's another possibility, and probably must have been some of the "evidence" used to start, or "substantiate" the rumour.  But clearly, none of these clever "history detectives" didn't notice that their voices were extremely different, with in-born tones that couldn't be faked-by even the best voice people, like Mel Blanc; and also they didn't notice what happened afterward (Austin having a long career staying with Laurie, and Ted being with Okeh for a long period while Austin was still with Laurie, and then with Zell Sanders' Sprout Records.  And he couldn't have signed with Okeh under the alias, because he had used both names with Laurie, for everyone to observe. 

This is why young people interested in what happened 60-100 years ago need to check with us ancient people, who were around back then, to make sure that the "discoveries" about the past aren't just seeing coincidences, and surmising things based on way too little evidence, with no cross referencing, and to use a hockey term, no cross-checking. 

The web is full of falsehoods, I guess like I make mistakes all the time it is easy to do, unless it's not a mistake ?

https://secondhandsongs.com/artist/11532

https://soulbluesmusic.com/tedtaylor.htm

Edited July 7, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

The web is full of falsehoods, I guess like I make mistakes all the time it is easy to do, unless it's not a mistake ?

https://secondhandsongs.com/artist/11532

https://soulbluesmusic.com/tedtaylor.htm

It IS a mistake.  That theory is just wrong.  It all must have come from one original mistake.  Their voices sound VERY, VERY different.  Austin came from New Orleans and worked a lot out of New York.  Ted was from Oklahoma, and sang there first, then moved to Texas while with Duke.  He then moved to L.A., where he stayed the rest of his career.  He didn't gig in L.A. and then fly to New York, and commute back and forth.  Laurie Records leased one of his records, just as so many of his freelance productions were, when he didn't have a long-term contract with a label, like he had with Duke and Okeh.  He got productions placed with a LOT of small, indie labels, which resulted in only one record released, and a few with 2.  There is no way they were the same man.  I've seen photos of both.  Austin looked very, very different from Ted.  If I remember correctly, he had his photo (in a dancing stance) on his Laurie LP, "Push, Push".  You can find hundreds of photos of Ted on The Internet.

[Kenb]

I've always thought Davie Gordon's explanation on 45cat.com (Push Push notes) in 2014 summed the mistake up very well.

[Robbk]

7 hours ago, Kenb said:

I've always thought Davie Gordon's explanation on 45cat.com (Push Push notes) in 2014 summed the mistake up very well.

Man, Ted Taylor's birth name being Austin DOES complicate things.  And, I suppose he could have rubbed charcoal all over his body to make himself look much darker when posing as Austin Taylor, "The Push, Push singer".  And, I suppose he could have worn giant lifts inside his shoes to make himself 7-8 inches taller, or stood on stilts.  And, as was describes on 45 Cat, he could sing in a lower register.  And Austin had a shaved head when "Push, Push" (Laurie 1067) came out, and Ted had a full head of hair at that time (1076).  Did Austin Ted Taylor shave his head for his time living and working in New York, and wear a wig over it, when commuting to New York each day from L.A. in his private jet, and while living in The New York/New Jersey Metro Area?

But, if he were living that double life, then, why on Earth would he have changed his name to an alias while still with Laurie Records, if he didn't want his Austin doings to be known as being done by Ted???  And how can one change the unique tone in one's voice to sound like a completely different person.  Even though Nat and Ike Cole's voices have that close familial tone, they each still have a uniqueness in their tone to allow close listeners to tell them apart - same with Dionne and Dee Dee Warwick.  

Talk about weird coincidences!!!  What were the odds of this one occurring???

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Robbk

[Blackpoolsoul]

This is Austin

 

[Blackpoolsoul]

7 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

This is Austin

 

I also found this quote from Bert Brrns CD Rare Gems Vol. 1

"Released on the Laurie Records label in 1960, Austin Taylor’s “Push Push” is one of the first records made by Bert Berns, and is clear evidence of Berns’ early affinity for the music of Cuba. The Caribbean-influenced recording was Berns’ first (and Taylor’s only) hit record, and gave clue to the direction Bert Berns would take in the years to come. Born on February 16, 1934 in Okmulgee, Oklahoma, Austin Taylor lifted Berns’ recording with his stratospheric vocal. But as Berns and Taylor went separate ways, Austin Taylor failed to ever chart again."

Photo from CD below

http://bertberns.com/album/rare-gems-vol-1-male-vocalists/

[Robbk]

19 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I also found this quote from Bert Berns CD Rare Gems Vol. 1

"Released on the Laurie Records label in 1960, Austin Taylor’s “Push Push” is one of the first records made by Bert Berns, and is clear evidence of Berns’ early affinity for the music of Cuba. The Caribbean-influenced recording was Berns’ first (and Taylor’s only) hit record, and gave clue to the direction Bert Berns would take in the years to come. Born on February 16, 1934 in Okmulgee, Oklahoma, Austin Taylor lifted Berns’ recording with his stratospheric vocal. But as Berns and Taylor went separate ways, Austin Taylor failed to ever chart again."

Photo from CD below

http://bertberns.com/album/rare-gems-vol-1-male-vocalists/

It was Ted who was born in Okmulgee Oklahoma.  Austin was born in New Orleans, according to  the man that first protested about the two men being listed as being the same person.  At the time of his comment, Austin had just died, and Ted was still alive.

The photo above is TED! 

Apparently, despite his several 45s issued by Laurie, Austin Taylor is so unremembered, and was so obscure that there are NO photos of him on The Internet, - not even a photo of his Laurie LP.  Also, his own family members are not even protesting about this omnipresent misinformation.

 

Mark my words:

Soon after the last of our generation die, someone will see the label and hear The first Detroit Dramatics' song, "Toy Soldier" and make the observation that "THAT must be The Ron Banks Dramatics first record release."  There will be enough research done to realise that it was a Detroit production, with Brohun Music listed (pointing to Fred Brown and Joe Hunter), and F. Brown and J. Hunter are listed as the songs' writers.  The "discoverer" will say that The Dramatics were a Detroit group otherwise starting their recording career in 1966.  This was a 1963 record.  Only 3 years before.  This is too close in time for it to have been a different group.  It MUST have been them, just with a different lead singer.  Banks would have been only 12 then, and the lead's voice was too deep for that age.   Others will see this new discovery, and others will agree with his logic, and it will soon spread as an Internet fact.

That's the same logic has Austin Taylor from New Orleans and Austin "Ted" Taylor as the same person, with hundreds of us who know better and different, powerless to expunge that new "fact".  It will be even easier for misinformation to spread even faster after all of us, who LIVED those facts, are gone.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Robbk

[Marc Forrest]

On 06/07/2021 at 16:30, Ady Croasdell said:

Only played it a couple of times, really like it but it didn’t fit in with the rest of my set at the time. Paid a few Bob for it - unusual for me

remember lending my copy to ACE/Kent back in the day for the first J&S CD compilation. Dont remember when but 10+ years ago ? Back then it was a firm Hip City spin for me.

[The Yank]

On 07/07/2021 at 11:29, Robbk said:

It was Ted who was born in Okmulgee Oklahoma.  Austin was born in New Orleans, according to  the man that first protested about the two men being listed as being the same person.  At the time of his comment, Austin had just died, and Ted was still alive.

The photo above is TED! 

Apparently, despite his several 45s issued by Laurie, Austin Taylor is so unremembered, and was so obscure that there are NO photos of him on The Internet, - not even a photo of his Laurie LP.  Also, his own family members are not even protesting about this omnipresent misinformation.

 

Mark my words:

Soon after the last of our generation die, someone will see the label and hear The first Detroit Dramatics' song, "Toy Soldier" and make the observation that "THAT must be The Ron Banks Dramatics first record release."  There will be enough research done to realise that it was a Detroit production, with Brohun Music listed (pointing to Fred Brown and Joe Hunter), and F. Brown and J. Hunter are listed as the songs' writers.  The "discoverer" will say that The Dramatics were a Detroit group otherwise starting their recording career in 1966.  This was a 1963 record.  Only 3 years before.  This is too close in time for it to have been a different group.  It MUST have been them, just with a different lead singer.  Banks would have been only 12 then, and the lead's voice was too deep for that age.   Others will see this new discovery, and others will agree with his logic, and it will soon spread as an Internet fact.

Let's hope people get their info from Manship's web site who currently has the 45 up for auction  and says this is a different group of Dramatics. 

[Robbk]

33 minutes ago, The Yank said:

Let's hope people get their info from Manship's web site who currently has the 45 up for auction  and says this is a different group of Dramatics. 

Of course there are lots of people NOW who know there were two different Dramatics groups, both from Detroit reasonably close to existing at the same time.  There are still people who KNOW that Austin Taylor from New Orleans is NOT Austin Theodore (TED) Taylor.  That hasn't seemed to stop it from becoming an "Internet fact" that the two men were one-in-the-same.  When the people living now who KNOW they were different people are gone, The World population, on the whole, will likely "be sure" that they were the same person.  And "Toy Soldier" will be forever until in The Ron Banks Dramatics' discography, until Humans no longer exist/or 1960s Soul music is forgotten, altogether (whichever comes first). 

[Kenb]

I respect the views...but I can’t see what all the fuss is about. People make mistakes. Some even deliberately “obscure” the truth...cover up’s being a case in point. It’s the way with all history.

[Robbk]

3 hours ago, Kenb said:

I respect the views...but I can’t see what all the fuss is about. People make mistakes. Some even deliberately “obscure” the truth...cover up’s being a case in point. It’s the way with all history.

People make mistakes all the time.  I'm not blaming them for not knowing something.  I'm angry that one person making that mistake and wording it such that it sounds like a proven fact, can snowball eventually into an entire society think that it is a fact.

[Blackpoolsoul]

7 hours ago, Robbk said:

People make mistakes all the time.  I'm not blaming them for not knowing something.  I'm angry that one person making that mistake and wording it such that it sounds like a proven fact, can snowball eventually into an entire society think that it is a fact.

 

11 hours ago, Kenb said:

I respect the views...but I can’t see what all the fuss is about. People make mistakes. Some even deliberately “obscure” the truth...cover up’s being a case in point. It’s the way with all history.

However the brains on here have now questioned and resulted in fact being fiction and all those mentions on the internet may be corrected at some stage, nice one 

[Robbk]

2 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 

However the brains on here have now questioned and resulted in fact being fiction and all those mentions on the internet may be corrected at some stage, nice one 

One can only hope. 

[Ady Croasdell]

On 08/07/2021 at 18:02, Marc Forrest said:

remember lending my copy to ACE/Kent back in the day for the first J&S CD compilation. Dont remember when but 10+ years ago ? Back then it was a firm Hip City spin for me.

Thanks, I must have picked up mine shortly after

[Marc Forrest]

You did, you tried to purchase mine and as I kept mine you ended up with a relatively expensive alternative..so you told me back then

Edited July 17, 2021 by Marc Forrest

[Tai-pan]

On 03/07/2021 at 23:57, Gaz T said:

Austin Taylor why o why

I see John Manship is auctioning a copy of this fantastic 45

I understand its a play at the 100 club over the last few years.

It is deffo a tune that you could call a 60s newie

I personally love it, its up there with all the best RnB Northern tunes.

Congratulations to John Manship for putting the worst quality sound file up ever!

The 45 does not sound like that at all !

Anyway, my question..... has it escaped the 100 club yet?

Has anyone else played it outside of London yet?

Who found the few copys that popped up a 5 years ago?

Has it ever been played anywhere else apart from the 100 club?

Great record.

 

It's another Burnley record from 15+ years back, we originally covered-up as Bernie Williams came from John Anderson in late 90's.